User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 20986
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:18 am

Not good news for Iceland if it happens.


Britain warned Iceland that it would be frozen out of the European Union after its President abruptly vetoed the repayment of a £3.6 billion loan.

The Treasury expected Reykjavik to rubberstamp the terms of repayment for the loan extended by Britain and the Netherlands at the height of the financial crisis. The loan meant that 400,000 savers with deposits in Icesave did not lose their money.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6977152.ece
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:32 am

I'd love to see them default on those loans from Russia as well. How long does it take to sail from Murmansk to Iceland, maybe two or three days?  scratchchin 
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:35 am

Yeah, me again, and yeah, me with my same opinion again:

If us being frozen out of the EU means that we won’t be allowed to enter, I am not disappointed. I want Iceland simply away from the EU, as I’ve said some time before.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:49 am

From what I hear from friends in Iceland there is no way that Iceland will enter the EU. The mandatory public referendum will simply be turned down by a large majority.

That said, it is not fair that every single Icelandic individual - infants and oldies included - shall bleed £11,000 because 400,000 British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed - and lost - together with a handful of morons who just happened to carry an Icelandic passport. Morons who mostly had learned their dirty tricks at British business schools.

The fact is simply that Britain is at fault in this issue.

The problem is that one certain Mr. Brown due to internal Bristish financial collapses in 2008 painted himself up into a corner from where he cannot move. It will take at least an new British PM to get out of this deadlock.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:31 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
That said, it is not fair that every single Icelandic individual - infants and oldies included - shall bleed £11,000 because 400,000 British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed - and lost

Right, so putting money in a bank is greedy then?

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
The fact is simply that Britain is at fault in this issue.

So because British nationals, amongst many others, lost their money - it's their fault... for saving money in a bank. You don't seem to understand the concept of banking - if you want to gamble your money then you go to the bookies or play the stock markets, if you want to keep it safe, you bank it. The fault lies only with the Icelandic banks, not their customers.

If Iceland doesn't repay this money then their credit rating will go from severely dented to worthless, which it's rapidly becoming regardless the longer this carries on. The IMF have already stated that they will not extend Iceland any further lines of credit or aid until this agreement is finalised, it's a case of cutting off their noses to spite their face. The initial bail out was only given on the proviso that the UK and the Netherlands were repaid in full, and defaulting now will ruin international relations far beyond those directly involved.

[Edited 2010-01-05 18:34:42]
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Derico
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:16 am

I understand that in theory Britain has the right to be unhappy with the Icelandic gov, that said... I think this is a case of the large bullying the small, because they can. I see no difference between investing in Icelandic banks giving you 15% interest (are people so dumb to realize that is a little risky for a ''bank''), and investing in stocks, bonds, and other securities.

If Iceland is made to pay for this 'investing' decision individuals made, then doesn't the world deserve their money back from the US and UK over the TRILLIONS lost in the mortgage securities that their banks repackaged and sold to the world as ''safe'' investments in what is now worthless US real estate?

Where do you draw the line?
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:04 am

They should offer trips to Iceland in compensation. After some days in such a beautiful country people would forget about their money.  Smile
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:10 am

I am all for banks paying back money to deposit-owners.
However after all this that has gone down with the banks the only bank that really have to cover its costs are Icesave???
A bank that no longer exists and that were quickly taken out of business by Britain using a terrorist legislation.
Now this entire issue stinks, Icelanders shouldn't pay because their country nationalised a bank on the brink of collapse and saved many small deposit-holders.

Come back when the British and dutch government have sorted the trillions that their own banks lost (RBS, ING, Abn-Amro mess, HBOS etc etc) and have paid back every euro of that then I will gladly demand that the Icelandic do the same, until then let the Icelandic keep their money and get their economy back on its feet.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:51 am

Is Britain even a member of the EU? If they're not, they have no say in the matter, unless they strong arm the dutch into strong arming the Belgians and French.

I wonder if it's issues like this that convinced Norway not to join the EU, that and they didn't want to see all their oil money, which they have alot of, going to France and Germany.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:14 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
Is Britain even a member of the EU?

Yes... the United Kingdom has been a member of the EU since the beginning basically.
 
andz
Posts: 7624
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
Is Britain even a member of the EU?

Britain joined the Common Market as it was known then in January 1973. They originally applied to join in 1967 but it was vetoed by Charles de Gaulle.

Don't confuse the EU with the Euro zone.

[Edited 2010-01-06 00:23:28]
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Flighty
Posts: 7651
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:02 am



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
Right, so putting money in a bank is greedy then?

It certainly can be. Many people have been powerfully educated by depositing their money in banks that are not within a stable financial system, or one that they understand. And they lost their money.

This is a valuable life lesson for the British.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:09 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
I wonder if it's issues like this that convinced Norway not to join the EU, that and they didn't want to see all their oil money, which they have alot of, going to France and Germany.

Both France and even more Germany are net contributors. This means that these countries pay more into the EU than they receive.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:23 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Both France and even more Germany are net contributors. This means that these countries pay more into the EU than they receive.

And Britain, too. A lot of money from these 3 countries goes into infrastructure and whatnot in many other countries, especially in Eastern Europe.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:43 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 13):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Both France and even more Germany are net contributors. This means that these countries pay more into the EU than they receive.

And Britain, too. A lot of money from these 3 countries goes into infrastructure and whatnot in many other countries, especially in Eastern Europe.

I was just countering Northstar´s allegation that, if Norway would join the EU, all of their oil money would be siphoned off by Germany and France. As you rightly stated the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria and the Netherlands are net contributors as well. Belgium and Luxembourg are net receivers, but this is mostly due to the EU institutions located in these countries, which add a lot to their economies. Most net receivers (those who get more from the EU than they pay into it) are located in southern and eastern Europe.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:58 am



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):

They have NATO to deal with that issue.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:09 am



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 2):
If us being frozen out of the EU means that we won’t be allowed to enter, I am not disappointed. I want Iceland simply away from the EU, as I’ve said some time before.

I have always thought that when push comes to shove, Iceland wouldn't join the EU anyway. I reckon Iceland is probably better off out of the EU anyway, so if the UK did veto their entry it wouldn't make a difference.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
shall bleed £11,000 because 400,000 British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed - and lost - together with a handful of morons who just happened to carry an Icelandic passport. Morons who mostly had learned their dirty tricks at British business schools.

I completely agree. If someone came up to me and asked for £11,000 to pay off investors in another country that were sold a banking service by someone I don't know, I'd tell them to f@%k off. Innocent people should not pay for the mistakes of the few.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
Right, so putting money in a bank is greedy then?

Whenever one buys a product one normally checks the background of the manufacturer, shop...etc to ascertain if it is a quality product. Banks are no different. I was wowed by the rather impressive interest rates offered by Icelandic banks, however when I looked into them I wasn't satisfied that the banks were as solid as I has hoped. Instead, I put my money in an HSBC account. The interest rate was less, but I was happier about the solidity of the bank.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
Is Britain even a member of the EU? If they're not, they have no say in the matter,

Doesn't the thread topic give it away?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:21 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
Is Britain even a member of the EU? If they're not, they have no say in the matter, unless they strong arm the dutch into strong arming the Belgians and French.

That question was a joke, right??

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 16):
Doesn't the thread topic give it away?

 checkmark Just a tiny bit, yes.

Anyway......if Iceland didn't want to repay then it shouldn't have accepted the help in the first place. If it was just a question of a bank going bust and people losing their money, that would be one thing. However, the government accepted arrangements because it didn't want that to happen, and now wants to wriggle out to appease public opinion.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 20986
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:46 am



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed - and lost - together with a handful of morons who just happened to carry an Icelandic passport. Morons who mostly had learned their dirty tricks at British business schools

( not quite the rich bankers and Eton elite ).

Icelandic chill hits the Costa pensioners

Hundreds of pensioners living in Spain fear they could lose their homes in the sun after signing up for an equity-release scheme with failed Icelandic bank Landsbanki.
Some of these expats have racked up hundreds of thousands of pounds of debts after signing up for a type of scheme that has been banned in Britain since 1990.
Many owe more than their properties are worth. Some of the elderly homeowners took the money because they needed to pay for medical treatment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/art...c-chill-hits-Costa-pensioners.html
 
offloaded
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:25 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):

Sometimes it isn't about greed, it's about the need to do something with your money. Take a lot of British retirees across Spain and Portugal for example. People retired 20 years ago with respectable savings. The GBP£ interest rate was 14%. The GBP wasn't that strong against the PTE or ESP at the time, but the interest your capital was earning was just fine. Spain/Portugal were cheap places to live at the time too. Later interest rates fell, but the GBP gained a lot of ground against the PTE / ESP later becoming the EUR. Fastforward a couple of years. You've got interest rates at 1.5%, a GBP/EUR damn near at parity, and people living in places that aren't cheap to live anymore. Too old to go back to work, and eating into their capital at an alarming rate. And remember, this was the generation that saved for their retirement.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
lukeyboy95
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:24 pm



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
400,000 British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed -

This seems a bit disillusioned to me, not to offend. These aren't the not-so-canny Bank of Scotland Investors who were reckless with their investments; this is a case of just ordinary citizens puting their savings and trust into this bank. I think its wholey unfair to paint them with this 'greedy' label...
Breaking down the stereotypes - one by one
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:36 pm



Quoting Lukeyboy95 (Reply 20):
This seems a bit disillusioned to me, not to offend. These aren't the not-so-canny Bank of Scotland Investors who were reckless with their investments; this is a case of just ordinary citizens puting their savings and trust into this bank. I think its wholey unfair to paint them with this 'greedy' label...

Definitely. And, it's quite clear they weren't all Robert Maxwell types living a fat life and out to rip everyone off who they might chance upon. Many of these people are ordinary people wanting to invest their hard-earned cash. It cannot be right to blame these people when the Icelandic banking regulators clearly dropped the ball and should have seen this coming; ditto the government. In an economy the size of Iceland's there is no way that the government and its agencies shouldn't/couldn't have been aware of what was happening. It is not good enough to simply dismiss it as 'well, it's just some cowboys who happened to have Icelandic passports'.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
faxiTMA
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:23 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:20 pm

People of Britain:
Surrender and we will take our freezing weather back.

Best regards, Iceland.

 Big grin
 
User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 20986
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:32 pm



Quoting FaxiTMA (Reply 22):
People of Britain:
Surrender and we will take our freezing weather back.

Give them the Blue Lagoon and call it quits.  Wink  Big grin
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4159
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:06 pm



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
That said, it is not fair that every single Icelandic individual - infants and oldies included - shall bleed £11,000 because 400,000 British and Dutch investors gambled their money for greed - and lost

Absolute rubbish! It had absolutely nothing to do with greed. At least not here in The Netherlands. I remember very distinctly these Icelandic banks running very respectable advertising campaigns in the Dutch press. Their advertisements made no hollow promises. The only thing they offered was an interest rate on savings of about ¾% above the average interest rate for domestic savings accounts. Nothing more than that.

However I didn't succumb to the temptation. Call me unadventurous, but I like my capital close at hand.

Unfortunately Iceland is threatening to get itself into even more trouble. Standard and Poors will probably lower the creditworthiness of the country because of Iceland's dismissal of the deal with the British and Dutch authorities.

And then there is the question of Iceland's outstanding credit from the IMF.

Swings and roundabouts.
Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:16 pm



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 24):
Absolute rubbish! It had absolutely nothing to do with greed. At least not here in The Netherlands. I remember very distinctly these Icelandic banks running very respectable advertising campaigns in the Dutch press.

Exactly. And, I love it how people are keen to make it sound as though this was some get-rich-quich scheme run by con men, when it was savings accounts run by an offshoot of Landsbanki. For those who know nothing of Landsbanki, see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsbanki

An organisation well over a hundred years old, a bank that once served as the actual national bank of Iceland, and we're supposed to swallow the fact that savers who trusted their money with Icesave are somehow to blame because of their greed???

Maybe it doesn't seem fair to Icelanders that they suffer economically for the actions of their financial organisations and government, but you can blame those people for that - NOT British and Dutch savers.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:24 pm



Quoting FaxiTMA (Reply 22):
People of Britain:
Surrender and we will take our freezing weather back.

Best regards, Iceland.

 rotfl  Good one.  biggrin 

(getur því miður gleymt því)
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:37 pm



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 26):
Quoting FaxiTMA (Reply 22):
People of Britain:
Surrender and we will take our freezing weather back.

Best regards, Iceland.

rotfl Good one. biggrin

(getur því miður gleymt því)

yeah well......leave our cod alone!  duck 
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:02 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
leave our cod alone!  duck 

go back to Kazakhstan!  duck 
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:14 pm



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 28):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
leave our cod alone! duck

go back to Kazakhstan! duck

Hmm. I'm British, and I don't think Kazakhstan ever had a cod war with Iceland, or significant amounts of savers losing money with Icesave! Aaaaaanyway......
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:33 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
Hmm. I'm British, and I don't think Kazakhstan ever had a cod war with Iceland, or significant amounts of savers losing money with Icesave!

No sh*t? I knew that, but I said what I said because you have the Kazakhstani flag beside your user name.

You having a bad hair day? This was supposed to be funny, and I thought you were, at least a tiny bit, humourous.  sarcastic 

Aaaaaaanyway.....
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:58 pm

The interesting thing is though that Iceland has already aggreed to compensate the U.K. and Dutch Governments. They did so in September when a bill was passed and signed by the president that said that Iceland would pay this money.

So this is not a matter of whether Iceland will or won´t pay the money. They have already aggreed to do so.

What is being disputed here are the terms of the repayment. In the bill passed in September there were certain conditions about economic growth in Iceland and other things that made the loan sustainable. Britain and the Netherlands declined this offer, but it still stands and is in Icelandic law.

As a counter offer Britain and the Dutch offered a deal that did not include the sustainability conditions and had a punitive interest rate of 5.55%, a premium of about 1-2% over their financing costs. This is what infuriated the Icelandic public, that Britain and the Netherlands attatched punitive conditions to the Icelandic offer.

This bill, that the president didn´t sign, is therefore not a matter of repayment or not. It is simply a change of the conditions in the other bill.

As for the EU accession of Iceland I wouldn´t be worried that this will have any real effect as Iceland has already signed a bill that promises to pay the U.K. and Netherlands but is simply having disagreement on the terms.

There has actually been considerable discussion in Iceland as to whether the EU could play a mediatior role between Iceland, the U.K and the Netherlands in order to reach a fair deal.

As to whether Iceland should be paying in the first place you should note this: The Insurance deposit fund in Iceland was fully funded. However it is not in the nature of insurance to be able to cover everyone in case of a total system collapse and as such it couldn´t. There is no and never has been any government guarentee of the deposit insurance fund. This has never ever been in dispute.

The money that savers in the U.K and the Netherlands deposited in Icelandic banks never left the U.K and the Netherlands. It was lent out to vaious British, Icelandic, Dutch and other companies for use in their countries. The money never went to Iceland and isn´t there. These banks were operating under an Icelandic license but their operations were mostly outside of Iceland. Bcause of this the Icelandic people didn´t benefit at all from these deposits and don´t have any of the money. For this reason it is incorrect to say that Iceland should pay this money back. It never left the U.K and Dutch economies.

The U.K. and the Netherlands blocked the IMF from coming to Iceland until Iceland said that it would compensate, put a government guarentee on the deposit insurance fund, the British and Dutch. That is the reason that Iceland decided to pay the United Kingdom and Holland 5 billion dollars i.e. because the U.K and the Netherlands blackmailed Iceland until it aggreed to pay them.

The same thing is going on with this thread. The U.K and the Netherlands are blackmailing Iceland into submission by trying to mess with their EU application, just as they have been preventing the IMF from operating in Iceland.

The IMF is often considered to be "rescue personnel" for macro-economic help. But the U.K and the Netherlands are saying to Iceland:

"We will block rescue personnel (IMF) from coming to Iceland until you pay us $5 billion and also your attempts at economic recovery through joining the EU"

In this sense the U.K and the Netherlands are behaving very badly.

What would you call a person that blocks an ambulance from arriving to help until you pay him some money?

[Edited 2010-01-06 15:19:50 by eaa3]
 
evomutant
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:21 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 31):
As for the EU accession of Iceland I wouldn´t be worried that this will have any real effect as Iceland has already signed a bill that promises to pay the U.K. and Netherlands but is simply having disagreement on the terms.

Both of those countries have a Veto though. If they don't like what is offered, there is nothing to stop them stamping their feet and slamming the door. And from what I have read, both the British and especially Dutch governments have made ominous noises that that is the route they will go down.
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:32 pm



Quoting Evomutant (Reply 32):
Both of those countries have a Veto though. If they don't like what is offered, there is nothing to stop them stamping their feet and slamming the door. And from what I have read, both the British and especially Dutch governments have made ominous noises that that is the route they will go down.

Yeah but why would they. Iceland has agreed to pay this money. That´s not the issue at hand. There is quite simply a law in effect in Iceland that states that Iceland must pay the U.K and the Netherlands this money but with certain resonable conditions.
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:48 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 31):
In this sense the U.K and the Netherlands are behaving very badly.

What would you call a person that blocks an ambulance from arriving to help until you pay him some money?


Both the UK & Dutch governments are fully entitled to go to any lengths to get the money they are owed back from Iceland and why shouldn't they?

A touch dramatic with the whole ambulance thing? Its NOT a life or death situation.

What would you call a person who agrees to a repayment plan for a loan then renegades on the original terms AFTER they have received the funds?

Did they not have the option to turn down the loan terms in the first place?
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:09 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 34):

Both the UK & Dutch governments are fully entitled to go to any lengths to get the money they are owed back from Iceland and why shouldn't they?

Yes they are entitled to blackmail a country that is 250x smaller then they are. After all soveign countries are basically "allowed" to do anything. Doesn´t mean it´s ok. It is basically the definition of bullying. Are you ok with that.

Also you say "owed by Iceland". This is the core of the issue. The U.K and the Netherlands didn´t use the IMF to get Iceland to pay something it owed but rather to get them to accept that they owed it, something which there is little legal evidence for. Iceland wanted to bring the issue before an impatial court, such as the European court, but the U.K. and the Netherlands declined this and just decided to blackmail Iceland until it agreed to this debt.

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 34):
A touch dramatic with the whole ambulance thing? Its NOT a life or death situation.

Is it though. In macro-economic terms what happened in Iceland is about as bad as it get´s. You had an all out run on the country. Foreign investors had about 1 GDP (GDP of Iceland) worth of assets in the country that they tried to sell and exit at the same time in October last year when the Carry trade reversed.

An equal run on the United States would be if China sold all it´s dollar holdings ten times in the matter of a couple of days (that is compared to U.S. GDP).

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 34):

What would you call a person who agrees to a repayment plan for a loan then renegades on the original terms AFTER they have received the funds?

Did they not have the option to turn down the loan terms in the first place?

I don´t see where you are going with this. Iceland didn´t recieve any funds from the U.K. or the Netherlands. The funds went to British and Dutch people. The question is whether Iceland (the soveign) had any responsibility to compensate the depositers, although the U.K and Dutch governments had already done this. Irregardless of this Iceland agreed to compensate them and this bill was not a question of whether to pay or not.

What do you mean by :"Did they not have the option to turn down the loan terms in the first place?" If you mean that the Icelandic government could have turned down the deal then yes it did accept the terms of the British and Dutch offer but said that it had to be approved by parliment and signed by the president in order to be ratified. So that pretense was always there.

The reason why the government agreed to the terms though, and brought the bill before parliment, was simply because the U.K. and the Netherlands were withholding IMF help which was sorely needed. So the U.K and the Netherlands used the IMF to squeeze out a punitive deal for Iceland.

[Edited 2010-01-06 16:13:14 by eaa3]
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:46 am



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 35):

No I wouldn't call it blackmail, I would call it operating in the world of International Finance.

Would you feel the same if the situation was reversed and it was a UK bank that had failed in Iceland? If that were the case I would fully expect my Government to live up to any promises it had previously made.

When I referred to loans I was referring to the billions of dollars Iceland received from the IMF made on the condition that the issue of Icesave compensation would be resolved.
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:06 am



Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 36):

No I wouldn't call it blackmail, I would call it operating in the world of International Finance.

Would you feel the same if the situation was reversed and it was a UK bank that had failed in Iceland? If that were the case I would fully expect my Government to live up to any promises it had previously made.

Yes it should but this is not the point. Iceland wasn´t legally obligated to guarantee the insurance deposit fund according to EU directive 94/19/EC. The fund was, as in other countries in Europe, a private insurance fund which is paid for by the banks themselves, just like for example the FDIC. Governments do often stand behind deposit insurance funds but they usually have no legal obligation to do so.

This is however irrelevant because Iceland has already promised to pay the U.K. and the Netherlands and that is in Icelandic law.

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 36):
When I referred to loans I was referring to the billions of dollars Iceland received from the IMF made on the condition that the issue of Icesave compensation would be resolved.

This is what Britain and Holland demanded (was the core of their blackmail) and is the reason why Iceland agreed to pay in the first place. Because Britain and Holland attatched this to the IMF package, to which they are not a party and are not lending Iceland any money.

What does a IMF rescue package in Iceland have to do with the Britain and Holland however. They didn´t contribute to it and should have no say as to what the IMF does in Iceland. They are simply using the IMF as leverage because they have a large say in the IMF board.

Like I said before however: Iceland has agreed to pay Britain and Holland already.
 
TristarAtLCA
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:12 am

The Icelandic President, Olafur Grimsson, was on Newsnight tonight saying its debt to the British and Dutch governments would be paid and stated:

"The view that we will not honour our obligations is completely wrong"

Sounds like he is agreeing with the notion that his country owes this money as part of the September deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8444829.stm
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:16 am



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
The Icelandic President, Olafur Grimsson, was on Newsnight tonight saying its debt to the British and Dutch governments would be paid and stated:

"The view that we will not honour our obligations is completely wrong"

Sounds like he is agreeing with the notion that his country owes this money as part of the September deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/...9.stm

Indeed that is the case. The parliment approved and he signed that bill on the second of September. In that bill Iceland´s obligation is acknowledged and that it will pay them amount in full. That law is obviously still in effect so the Icelandic government is obligated to pay according to it´s own laws, and will do so.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:10 am

The money being offered to Iceland comes from a few different sources, however the most important sources are the Nordic countries. There is a fairly comprehensive agreement about helping each other out in cases like this among the Nordic countries and the nordic countries share a lot of history and culture.
These countries will pay to Iceland no matter what Britain and holland says. If it was Germany making the noise then they might have listened more carefully. There will be some sabre-rattling in the icelandic press (most others dont really care about this) and some talk but the money will be paid.
Iceland has nothing to loose by not paying to Britain and the Netherlands and the president is by vetoing this increasing his popularity.
lets remember this is deeply unpopular among most Icelanders.

Iceland have already received the first part of the loan they need.

EU membership is something the Icelanders probably can live without and would be a close vote in any referendum. With this issue on the table and the blackmail by Britain and Holland any referendum on EU membership is very likely to return a negative answer making that point mute.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:44 am



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 24):
Unfortunately Iceland is threatening to get itself into even more trouble. Standard and Poors will probably lower the creditworthiness of the country because of Iceland's dismissal of the deal with the British and Dutch authorities.

There is no doubt that the Icelandics want to be good friends with the Dutch and British. But if that's not possible, then it is not a major disaster.

The Nordic countries - Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden - have very close relations. We do not praise the Icelandic people for electing a former government which failed (just like the UK and the USA) to put up a desent monitoring system for their private banks. But since Iceland is the small brother - some 300,000 souls, or just over 1% of the population of all Nordic countris - then there is no way our north-western brothers and sisters shall be allowed to suffer.

But the average size of the SUVs on the Icelandic roads will shrink over the next few years.

The Icelandic adventure-banks were also active in Norway and Finland. But These countries are not bullying Iceland like the Netherlands and Britain. The Nordic countries know that it makes no sense to bomb Iceland back to stone age for their mismanagement of their banking system.

This banking accident has a scale which makes it completely unrealistic that it can be "paid up" by a population the size of 3% of London city. Add to that the fact that 299,990 of them are totally innocent except for electing a finance minister who was equally incompetent for the job as Gordon Brown and Alan Greenspan.

S&P may put a ZZZ-minus rating on Iceland, and Mr. Brown may put Iceland on all the anti-terror lists he can invent. But it won't change the fact that the Nordic countries and others will do business as usual with Iceland. And treat the Icelandic people as the good brothers and sisters they are.

This is not the finest moment for Britain. Sure Sir Winston Churchill would have agreed upon that. But Britain will realize the facts one day. It will just not happen as long as Mr. Brown is in office. He has used the Icelandic banking scandal too much to distract away from domestic problems.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3081
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:52 am



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 41):

Excelent post, its a pity that huge financial scandals in Wall Street perpetrated by thousands are seldom talked about and this Icelandic crisis is made to look like the end of the world.

nothing has changed...business as usual.

Regards TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:14 am



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 30):
No sh*t? I knew that, but I said what I said because you have the Kazakhstani flag beside your user name.

Have a care arguing with Khazakistan, they might sic Borat onto Iceland. What is paying the UK and whoever a bit over the odds compared with having to expose the:

Cultural Learnings of Iceland for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan ?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:16 am



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 30):
This was supposed to be funny, and I thought you were, at least a tiny bit, humourous. sarcastic

I assumed so, it just lacked relevance, that's all. I would have a bad hair day occasionally, if I actually had any hair.  smile 

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 41):
Add to that the fact that 299,990 of them are totally innocent except for electing a finance minister who was equally incompetent for the job as Gordon Brown and Alan Greenspan.

Well, that's what happens. We continue to suffer for electing our stupid government too. That's the way it goes, and we don't have anything like as direct a democracy as Iceland.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 41):
But These countries are not bullying Iceland like the Netherlands and Britain.

Bullying? It is about living up to legal obligations. Was Iceland bullied into accepting financial assistance in the first place? If it was, then only by the fools that led them into the mess in the first place. Is it Britain's fault that the way out of that mess might be a little painful? Why underplay the fact that Icelandic organisations and government are really at fault here?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:25 am



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 41):
But it won't change the fact that the Nordic countries and others will do business as usual with Iceland. And treat the Icelandic people as the good brothers and sisters they are.

Maybe, but the thought that an isolationistic Nordic cooperation will be strong enough to protect you if the major players like the UK threaten to impose sanctions is quite naive. Denmark tried that in the 1950s as well, and was quite obliged to join the EU in 1972, as the sole nordic cooperation simply didn't work out alone.
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:43 am

the EU, in my typical American mind, is synomous with the schengen zone because most members of the EU are also in the schengen zone, meaning you only have to deal with one set of passport controls, not thirty different ones, thus flying country to country in europe is very easy. the UK on the other hand, maintains it's own passport controls and it's own currency whereas many other countries in the EU have converted to the Euro. Thus, one does not think of the UK as being in the EU because they choose not to participate in the Schengen treaty, as most other EU countries do, including Norway, which is not a member of the EU and they choose not to participate in the shared currency, the Euro.

As for Norway not joining the EU, i'm not sure, ultimately what the reason was, but i've been told that part of the reason had to do with being forced to divert oil revenues to "France and Germany" meaning that those oil revenues would be used for the benefit of countries in Europe other than Norway. I can only go by what i've been told by reputable sources, such as Hurtigruten cruise directors, who live there, and so i'd assume know what they're talking about.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
eaa3
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:04 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
Bullying? It is about living up to legal obligations. Was Iceland bullied into accepting financial assistance in the first place? If it was, then only by the fools that led them into the mess in the first place. Is it Britain's fault that the way out of that mess might be a little painful? Why underplay the fact that Icelandic organisations and government are really at fault here?

Your confusing 2 things together: The IMF assistance and the Icesave deposits. One have nothing to do with the other. The IMF is not a part of the British or Dutch government.

Iceland went to the IMF during the economic collapse in the begining of October 2008 and requested assistance. The IMF however was stopped from assisting Iceland until the end of November 2008 by the British and Dutch governments i.e. until Iceland was desperate enough to accept Britains and Hollands conditions.

Britain also used anti-terrorist legislation to freeze all Icelandic assets in Britain. That is Britain froze the assets of every Icelandic company, person and the Icelandic government because a private company went bankrupt. Note that Iceland is a founding NATO member. Could you imagine if Britain did this to a bigger NATO country like France for example: It would basically be considered a decleration of war. Because Iceland used London as a clearing hub for most financial transactions (international money transfers and such) it meant that all money transfers to and from Iceland froze. Because of Britain you couldn´t, for about a month, transfer money to Iceland or from Iceland. This continued until Iceland accepted Britains and Hollands conditions also.

The U.K treasury placed Iceland on a terrorist watch (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/fin_sanctions_currentindex.htm ) list next to Al Qaeda, Iran,Iraq.(Note: it is not there anymore but during the act Iceland was right next to Iran and Iraq on that list) That is: Britain designated Iceland, a NATO country, a terrorist.

So yeah blackmail is a perfect description of what happened. It had no legal obligations but because the Icelandic government became incredibly desperate and worried it accepted a obligation without having a legal obligation to do so. Icelandic polititians were quite frankly worried that if it didn´t accept these conditions and get IMF help that necessities such as medical drugs and food could not be imported. This was offcourse because of the severity of the run on the Icelandic currency and the fact that money transfers were blocked by the British.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:05 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
the EU, in my typical American mind, is synomous with the schengen zone because most members of the EU are also in the schengen zone, meaning you only have to deal with one set of passport controls

Which is obviously a total misconception.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
as most other EU countries do, including Norway

Slight contradiction with.......

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
As for Norway not joining the EU

But anyway, what does any of that have to do with the prospect of Iceland failing to repay its debt?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Britain Threatens To Freeze Iceland Out Of EU

Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:34 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
I assumed so, it just lacked relevance, that's all.

Well isn’t that what this forum is often about?  Smile

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
I would have a bad hair day occasionally, if I actually had any hair.

lol  biggrin  Well I’m on the way there at least.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], jpetekyxmd80 and 39 guests