User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19821
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:47 pm

Before the recent disaster in Haiti, it was already the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.

The Hatian Presidential Palace, a seeming mirage of power and order in a city of sprawling slums, is now a ruin:


Even before the quake, Haiti didn't have much going for it:


But now most of those slums lie in ruin. Bodies are literally lined up --sometimes stacked on top of each-other-- in the street. There are no words to describe the depths of the tragedy.

When the smoke has cleared and the relief workers have gone away, Haiti will lie a tropical paradise wasteland. I don't see how the Hatian government can continue to function. What will happen in Haiti? Will it descend into complete anarchy? Will warlords arise until one becomes a dictator? More worrisome, in times of desperation, will a group like Al Qaeda, with money and promises of eternal paradise, find a warm home there?

Discuss...
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:14 pm

Perhaps France may have to intervene in this case. Since French islands are nearby (along with French Guayana), it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again, maybe as a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer, overseas collective), giving Haiti political authority similar to the one the regions on the French mainland and Corsica have.

If not, then perhaps a French intervention similar to the one in Côte d'Ivoire would be in order. In any case, I feel that France will get in some way involved, if not take responsibility for helping a fellow francophone country.
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:34 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again

It takes two to tango. Would France be interested?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:41 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
More worrisome, in times of desperation, will a group like Al Qaeda, with money and promises of eternal paradise, find a warm home there?

Haiti would cease to exist if that happened. The proximity to the US would mean Haiti would get crushed and the Dominican Republic would suddenly take over all of Hispaniola.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Perhaps France may have to intervene in this case. Since French islands are nearby (along with French Guayana), it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again, maybe as a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer, overseas collective), giving Haiti political authority similar to the one the regions on the French mainland and Corsica have.

Given the costs of German Reunification, I just don't know if the French would want to deal with the issues surrounding integrating Haiti into the Republic, especially in this economic climate with that racist for a President.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
If not, then perhaps a French intervention similar to the one in Côte d'Ivoire would be in order. In any case, I feel that France will get in some way involved, if not take responsibility for helping a fellow francophone country.

I almost think US intervention is more likely.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 2958
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:27 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Perhaps France may have to intervene in this case. Since French islands are nearby (along with French Guayana), it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again, maybe as a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer, overseas collective), giving Haiti political authority similar to the one the regions on the French mainland and Corsica have.

I don't think it's going to happen. First because it is still a country ruled by an official government. And the executive power is still alive. Therefore it will be their (the people and the government) decision to request it.

Then Haiti was one of the first French colony to take its independance. That was in 1804, when Napoleon had to withdrew his army after the revolution. Going back to France after more than 200 years of independance would be quite awkward and - to me - not doable. And anyway, I don't think Haitians would like to be part of France again.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
In any case, I feel that France will get in some way involved, if not take responsibility for helping a fellow francophone country.

We do help, but I don't think we will take more responsibility than the others. As I said, this country is almost as old as the US, so our connections faded away long time ago. That said, we sent plenty of people to help (400 people from Sécurité Civile, food, field hospitals with 60 nurses and doctors, two Navy ships will bring construction materials and helicopters. And of course, money).
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9841
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:31 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Perhaps France may have to intervene in this case. Since French islands are nearby (along with French Guayana), it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again, maybe as a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer, overseas collective), giving Haiti political authority similar to the one the regions on the French mainland and Corsica have.

Haiti has 10 million people, nearly all poor as hell. I suspect that the French taxpayers might revive the guillotine if their government suggests for France to take responsibility for it.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
AM744
Posts: 1437
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:43 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
it could be possible that Haiti decides to become part of France again

I've read that Guadeloupe actually drains money from France. Plus, what would France win from that 'reunification'?
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:53 pm

Unfortunately, I fear Haiti will continue to be the poorest country in the Americas and one of the poorest in the world. They already depend a lot (prior to the recent tragedy) on foreign aid of all sorts, half the population can't read or write, the life expectancy is of 60 years, infrastructure is a mess ... and now the quake probably destroyed whatever was left. Things don't look too bright for the future  Sad
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
D L X
Posts: 11663
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:53 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
will a group like Al Qaeda, with money and promises of eternal paradise, find a warm home there?

Not a lot of Islamist extremists in Haiti, an almost exclusively Catholic nation.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
I almost think US intervention is more likely.

Most likely, but not very likely.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:02 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 8):

Most likely, but not very likely.

As I said, more likely  Wink
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:39 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 7):
fear Haiti will continue to be the poorest country in the Americas and one of the poorest in the world.

Foreign aid does nothing except exacerbate the problem over time it seems. Your left with a population that does not work upward to sustain itself . I am not talking about a stock exchange ... I am talking about the basics ... like food production , basic infrastructure , basic social fabric and security. Remove the foreign aid and what is left in Haiti for the people ?

They seem incapable of progress ? Why ... I don't get it I guess. But no matter my company made a good donation to the relief effort today ..the people sure need help.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:58 pm

Why would France have to take care of this? They wanted to do away from France so why should France take them back? France took in Baby Doc after he fled Haiti and gave him shelter with a luxury lifestyle on the Riviera and Paris.

Also think of these dictators, Papa Doc and Baby Doc how awful they were and how many people they tortured and killed. Haiti was not a fun place to be an opponent to the Duvaliers regime.

I hear Duvalier want to go back to Haiti now and be in power again.I doubt it would help the situation at all. I think it would rather deteriorate it.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 2958
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:15 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
They seem incapable of progress ? Why ... I don't get it I guess

As soon as France left Haiti (which was called Saint-Domingue at that time), dictactors took power and since 1804, there has been a long succession of Coup d'état that plundged the country into persistent instability and poverty.

If you add on top of the that all the natural disasters, like Earthquakes (one very serious every century), hurricanes (4 in 2008), floods provoked by massive deforestation, etc., that keep on destroying the little that can be rebuilt, you have a country that is struggling to develop.

[Edited 2010-01-14 13:16:49]
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19821
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
the Dominican Republic would suddenly take over all of Hispaniola.

The DR wants nothing to do with Haiti. The Haiti/DR border makes US/Mexico look like the border between Iowa and Nebraska. Haitians try over and over to get into the DR, only to get blocked or deported.

That's the problem, nobody wants Haiti. It's just poor. No resources, no money, no industry.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):

Haiti has 10 million people, nearly all poor as hell. I suspect that the French taxpayers might revive the guillotine if their government suggests for France to take responsibility for it.

 checkmark 

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):

Not a lot of Islamist extremists in Haiti, an almost exclusively Catholic nation.

Remember, Haiti wasn't Catholic from the get-go. It got that way from immigration and missionaries. It's chaotic, it's near the U.S., and I'm sure that there are a lot of Haitians there who are just about fed up with God. I agree that it's not incredibly probable, but I still wouldn't discount the possibility that a new religion and a new order could enter.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
First because it is still a country ruled by an official government. And the executive power is still alive

For the moment, but reports are that the gunfire has already started. My guess is that a lot of services that would typically be provided by a government in a civilized country are probably "provided" by warlord-type folks in Haiti.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:40 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
That's the problem, nobody wants Haiti. It's just poor. No resources, no money, no industry.

Cheap labor. That should count for something. Why do clothing manufacturers make stuff in Bangladesh, Vietnam or Turkmenistan that end up in Western Hemisphere, yet not in Haiti?

Much lower shipping costs.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:41 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The DR wants nothing to do with Haiti. The Haiti/DR border makes US/Mexico look like the border between Iowa and Nebraska. Haitians try over and over to get into the DR, only to get blocked or deported.

You totally missed the point. If Al Queda were to establish a stronghold in Haiti, the US would destroy the place. The Dominicans would essentially have a clean slate with which to take over all of Hispaniola.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):

Foreign aid does nothing except exacerbate the problem over time it seems

Oh really? Like how Mexico paid back the US early, with interest, and ended up with a much more stable economy? How about Thailand's IMF bailout?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19821
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):

You totally missed the point. If Al Queda were to establish a stronghold in Haiti, the US would destroy the place.

The U.S. is generally not in the business of mass destruction. Otherwise, we would have carpet-bombed Afghanistan and been done with it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):

Oh really? Like how Mexico paid back the US early, with interest, and ended up with a much more stable economy? How about Thailand's IMF bailout?

Or how the Marshall Plan led eventually to a Europe that is economically stronger than the U.S.?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:56 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):

The U.S. is generally not in the business of mass destruction. Otherwise, we would have carpet-bombed Afghanistan and been done with it.

If you had an Al Queda stronghold so close by, things would be different. Besides, Haiti is a much smaller and easier to invade country and much closer for logistical purposes.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:05 pm

IF the help that Haiti is receiving at the moment is used in a constructive manner in order to get the country going again, then this catastrophe might have been the best thing that has happened to them in a long time. Its basically their chance to start from scratch and build up new infrastructure that will support the country in the future. But I'm almost sure that most of the aid money will once again "mysteriously" disappear in the wallets of some corrupt politicians.

So what's the future? They're going to stay just as poor as they were before. As harsh as it may sound, in two to three weeks time, you'll barely hear a news report on Haiti on one of the big news channels.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
Foreign aid does nothing except exacerbate the problem over time it seems. Your left with a population that does not work upward to sustain itself . I am not talking about a stock exchange ... I am talking about the basics ... like food production , basic infrastructure , basic social fabric and security. Remove the foreign aid and what is left in Haiti for the people ?

 checkmark 

In the end, foreign aid just allows corruption to thrive to even higher heights.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
I think it would rather deteriorate it.

I don't think the situation in Haiti can deteriorate even further.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:23 pm

OK, so maybe my initial hypothesis on what could happen is completely unrealistic. Nevertheless, I do think that France may get deeper involved than most other countries providing humanitarian relief (though I've read somewhere that US soldiers may be sent to Haiti to provide for security for the time being).
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:25 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 18):
But I'm almost sure that most of the aid money will once again "mysteriously" disappear in the wallets of some corrupt politicians.

Hence why they were in the predictament before the earthquake. Total government corruption. Until that hurdle is clear nothing can improve.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9061
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:42 pm

Short term I believe that there will be very good response and support for the country and its people. I hope to see a lot of countries participating so the influences there are not just American.

Longer term will, I believe, depend in part on some of the actions taken in the next month or so. There is the horrible situation of having tens of thousands of bodies to take care of. There is the demanding situation of continued rescue that need heavy equipment. But then there will be a shift from rescue to removal - of remains and of rubble,

When we start clearing out the rubble we need to have some idea of what should be built in it's place.

Housing design is a good start. I think that if I was a prof of architecture I would be assigning my students a project of designing basic, safe housing for Haiti. Small single family homes, Multi family homes and apartments. I'd add in the old apartment over a shop idea. And small clinics, staffed by nurses& physician assistants. And schools, some neighborhood based and some area based. There is simply so much that has to be done that there is a need for a lot of brains on the project.

Another important start will be training. After Katrina I wrote to one of my Senators about the potential of trade training of displaced N.O. citizens. Train them as carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. so they can earn money rebuilding the city - better than staying on the dole. (Both of my Senators are conservative Republicans so obviously I didn't even get a reply.  Yeah sure) The reality is that the Katrina related training would now be over and there would be tradesmen and women now. Able to rebuild. But most are probable on still getting food stamps, Medicaid, etc..

Move that training thought to Haiti - there is massive rebuilding to be done. And at a quality level that can avoid the destruction that was felt this week.

And the need for teachers & trainers will go through the roof. Unless education is significantly increased there will be no true long term employment. One can look to Aruba for excellent multi-lingual education at the elementary school level and up. Everything doesn't have to be "US style".

At the core we need to look towards the long term, starting now.
 
User avatar
BO__einG
Posts: 2646
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 5:20 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:36 am

The outpouring for this is immense and very touching.
I agree with many here that the country has already been poor and impoverished from the beginning and this earthquake only worsened it exponentially. I too would support the idea of this country surrendering its sovereignty and be absorbed back into the French territory or be absorbed to be a part of the United states like how some places like Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, etc. Or any other able country willing to accomodate a 10 million strong population boost. Canada? (already having tens of thousands residing)

If left alone, this country will go into anarchy. I see similar comparisons of Haiti to that of Somalia with the exception of pirates and warlord lawlessness.
Even foreign occupation would be a better alternative as there will be the kinds of assistance available beyond the ability of its own. The reality is, this poor land has very limited to no chance of flourishing unless something changes dramatically.

Something like a COM or some form of merger with another country like the ones I mentioned above or Dom. Republic is the ticket out. Reality is, who's willing to do that in today's world..
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:52 am

I fully expect that as a result of this very unfortunate event is that we will see an increasing amount of migration out of the country. Many Haitians have relatives in the United States, Quebec, the Bahamas, the French Caribbean islands and the Dominican Republic, and I think many will attempt to pick up, leave and start anew with the help of their families elsewhere.

In South Florida, the Catholic church is already starting to arrange charter flights to bring orphaned children from the earthquake to Miami, and then connect them with relatives in the United States to start life anew.

We saw this kind of situation with New Orleans, but Port Au Prince is in a lot worse shape and will be a lot more difficult to repair than New Orleans.
a.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3652
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:17 am

I would like to see Haiti recover from this stronger. I would like to see the government change dramatically, and stop the corruption. Corruption alone is a huge factor in why we see Haiti in such a terribly poor state.

I would like to see new building codes. I would like to see a future for the people of Haiti. They deserve it for all they have been through.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
When the smoke has cleared and the relief workers have gone away, Haiti will lie a tropical paradise wasteland. I don't see how the Hatian government can continue to function. What will happen in Haiti? Will it descend into complete anarchy? Will warlords arise until one becomes a dictator? More worrisome, in times of desperation, will a group like Al Qaeda, with money and promises of eternal paradise, find a warm home there?

Discuss...

Al Qaeda would never succeed in Haiti. Hopefully the US and other nations can use this tragedy as a building block to help them get on their feet. It would even be great if a large company would setup shop there. Anything to change the way things were!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
iwenttoYXEonce
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:54 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:36 am

What prevented Haiti from developing in the first place?

Just take a look at its neighbour on the same island. Totally different countries. One is poor as hell and the other has at least a working government and a strong tourism industry.

edit: spelling

[Edited 2010-01-15 00:37:15 by iwenttoYXEonce]
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:42 am



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 18):
I'm almost sure that most of the aid money will once again "mysteriously" disappear in the wallets of some corrupt politicians.



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 18):
In the end, foreign aid just allows corruption to thrive to even higher heights.

Strong probability yes. Hopefully there will be others who are less corrupt and a fair share of the $Millions will go to reconstruction and aid.

Now I have thought something... I wonder if all the Haitians living outside of Haiti, or at least many, thinking of the Haitian communities in the US, Canada, France and elsewhere will go back to their island and work on reconstruction, rescue and humanitarian tasks?

Many of them abroad have had the chance of getting higher education, become doctors, managers, chefs, engineers... so they could at least go to Haiti for some amount of time and help with what now needs to get done.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
JJJ
Posts: 2249
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:02 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27):
Now I have thought something... I wonder if all the Haitians living outside of Haiti, or at least many, thinking of the Haitian communities in the US, Canada, France and elsewhere will go back to their island and work on reconstruction, rescue and humanitarian tasks?

I know a Haitian doctor that has been living here for the last 30ish years. He fled (like a huge number of other skilled workers) from the Duvalier regime and is not coming back ever.

Maybe more recent immigrants would.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:33 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Oh really? Like how Mexico paid back the US early, with interest, and ended up with a much more stable economy? How about Thailand's IMF bailout?

Really ? Mexico has paid back the 4 billion from the Clinton currency stabilization ? That is encouraging news .... and the charts also show that imports from Mexico have steadily increased as well.

We have given 4 billion to Haiti since 1993..... and it has done nothing they don't even have a fire department!?! ....so I suggest we be far more selective with who gets what.

Let China send them a couple of billion.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:12 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
Why would France have to take care of this?

They wanted to do away from France so why should France take them back? France took in Baby Doc after he fled Haiti and gave him shelter with a luxury lifestyle on the Riviera and Paris.

Marie, you ask why would France take care of this and why would France take them back. Yet, you clearly STATE that they did EXACTLY the same with Duvalier. So they have a history of taking back.

Considering how the Duvaliers and Aristide took what was likely a lot of the $$ out of the Haitian treasury, France should allow for extradiction, demand the money be returned to the people of Haiti and send them back.

Instead, France welcomed those criminals with open arms. So why wouldn't they take it back given the example that they HAVE taken individuals back?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
I think it would rather deteriorate it.

Perhaps. But look at living conditions before and after the Duvaliers and to be honest, it was better before they left. Its been a shambles since they left.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Hence why they were in the predicament before the earthquake. Total government corruption. Until that hurdle is clear nothing can improve.

I've thought about that too. However, how do you correct corrupt government? Its easy for O'Reilly to state that the corrupt gov needs to be taken care of and $$$ disbursement be accountable. But the question remains HOW? If we send them $100 billion, how do we see that its used to that purpose its being given? (A bit tangential, but I am very tempted to write O'Reilly to challenge him, if he thinks he has the answer, then he should leave his post at Fox and govern that state.)

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
....so I suggest we be far more selective with who gets what.

Again, selectivity is pointless. Nikv69's point is the most valid. It is in fact no different that OUR gov taking OUR money and being held accountable to what happens to it.


Corrupt gov and thugs need to be addressed in order for the $$ being sent to Haiti to go where it needs.


HOWEVER, if WE in the US cant even control OUR OWN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS (just look at the political scandals in 2009), and we can't control our own thugs, gangs, violence, etc, then who can we direct Haiti to?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:27 pm



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 29):
Considering how the Duvaliers and Aristide took what was likely a lot of the $$ out of the Haitian treasury, France should allow for extradiction, demand the money be returned to the people of Haiti and send them back.

Oh definitely. I posted about this somewhere earlier. Baby Doc lives a lavish life between Paris and the French Riviera where he has a mansion, complete with gardens and a private helicopter pad with full seaview to the West and over the whole Principality of Monaco. I know where the property is. The man cries wolf pretending he is ruined by his divorce which is a blatant lie.

All his assets should be taken from him and his numerous bank accounts blocked but nothing of that wil be done. These tyrants run free and happy and without a tear while their own people are going through the greatest trouble.

No French government has done anything to ban Duvalier from settling in France since he came to the country and was welcomed with arms opened.

Shame on France who has always welcomed and hosted dictators of all breed on its grounds, from Idi Amin to Duvalier not counting many others of the same species.

 Angry
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
AM744
Posts: 1437
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:24 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
Really ? Mexico has paid back the 4 billion from the Clinton currency stabilization ? That is encouraging news

Yep. It's been some years now.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:54 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
Baby Doc lives a lavish life between Paris and the French Riviera where he has a mansion, complete with gardens and a private helicopter pad with full seaview to the West and over the whole Principality of Monaco.

It's criminal. its unbelievable and undeserved.

Yet, Haiti saw better days under him. At least there was SOME rule rather than multifactorial rule.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:13 pm



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 29):
I've thought about that too. However, how do you correct corrupt government? Its easy for O'Reilly to state that the corrupt gov needs to be taken care of and $$$ disbursement be accountable. But the question remains HOW? If we send them $100 billion, how do we see that its used to that purpose its being given? (A bit tangential, but I am very tempted to write O'Reilly to challenge him, if he thinks he has the answer, then he should leave his post at Fox and govern that state.)

Why does O'Reillly have to enter into this? Why do you want to challenge a person on TV who merely stated a fact? As for how do you establish a government that will serve the people equally and fairly? How did that come to pass here? How did the US build a constitution and laws and congress and elected officials? People need to rise up, revolt, do something anything. You have strong ties to Haiti wouldn't you like to see an infrastructure? Safe streets to walk, and end to the gangs and thugs and corruption? That country has no problem getting aide and this disaster is actually a good way for the people to begin to step up and say no more. I just hope out of all the good people in Haiti at this moment someone has what it takes to step up. It could mean for a very bright future for them and there is plenty of help to assist in this happening from all around the world.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
User avatar
OA412
Crew
Posts: 3779
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:48 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The Hatian Presidential Palace, a seeming mirage of power and order in a city of sprawling slums, is now a ruin

I have to say that this is the one bit of good news that has emerged from this whole tragic mess. I just hope that this event will put into motion events that will finally bring about real political change in Haiti.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
especially in this economic climate with that racist for a President.

That's for sure. What a POS Sarkozy is but that's for another thread...
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:34 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Why does O'Reillly have to enter into this?

I brought that in as it relates to this discussion and points he made last evening. He's just an example. I'm sure Olbermann or Maddox or anyone else could be in the crosshairs right now. But right now O'Reilly serves as another example of someone who thinks they have all the answers.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Why do you want to challenge a person on TV who merely stated a fact?

I'm not challenging fact. I am challenging his answer. He, as well as countless others who provide armchair commentary on politics, al think they have the answer. So for once, I'd love to see one of these guys step up to the plate and execute what they *think* will work.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
You have strong ties to Haiti wouldn't you like to see an infrastructure?

Of course. Where did I imply otherwise?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
People need to rise up, revolt, do something anything.

Haiti had the first, and the only, successful slave revolt in the history of the world. Moreover, the Haitian Revolution would lead to the doubling of the size of the United States. So revolts have been done.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
It could mean for a very bright future for them

I can only hope its a new start but with none of the same old. Truth is one can argue that Haitians had a better way of life under dictatorship than under corrupt democracy.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:59 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):

Really ? Mexico has paid back the 4 billion from the Clinton currency stabilization ?

Um, they paid it back when Clinton was still in office. It is actually an excellent case study in how direct lending between countries is often a better idea than using the IMF.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:20 am



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 35):
But right now O'Reilly serves as another example of someone who thinks they have all the answers.

He simply said Haiti needs a better government. Pretty much fact as far as can see.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 35):
al think they have the answer. So for once, I'd love to see one of these guys step up to the plate and execute what they *think* will work

What can they do? They are TV personalities. This is on the people of Haiti, they have the whole world behind them. They have been given plenty of money before this earthquake and plenty after and it's time for the good to begin to revolt against the bad and to establish something long term.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 35):
So revolts have been done.

Yes and elections and democracy started but then corruption seeps in. I am just hoping this can be avoided in the future or all that is done to rebuild will be in vain.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 35):
Truth is one can argue that Haitians had a better way of life under dictatorship than under corrupt democracy.

Hmmm I think if you put Duvalier and Aristide up for comparison I would take Aristide
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
texan
Posts: 4061
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:29 am

I would recommend reading David Brook's opinion piece from the 14 Jan 2010 New York Times. Interesting topic about how funds are best spent.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:53 am

http://www.torontosun.com/news/haiti/2010/01/17/12503421-qmi.html

Canada will be holding a international conference later this month to discuss the relief and re-construction effort.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):

I think most of the money is going to aid and development organizations.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:02 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 37):

Hmmm I think if you put Duvalier and Aristide up for comparison I would take Aristide

Your buddy George apparently didn't think so when he got Aristide tossed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:10 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 37):


Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 35):
But right now O'Reilly serves as another example of someone who thinks they have all the answers.

He simply said Haiti needs a better government. Pretty much fact as far as can see.

Not once did I say that he lied so I am not sure why you are pushing that issue. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Again,

I am challenging his answer. He, as well as countless others who provide armchair commentary on politics, all think they have the answer. That is NOT fact. That is the opinion of a journalist. Haiti's problems are fact. Its answers are opinion. Again, I am being clear.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 37):
They are TV personalities.

Who seem to give opinion in such a way that some viewers may *think* its fact.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 37):
I am just hoping this can be avoided in the future or all that is done to rebuild will be in vain.

Likewise, from this reset, they have to come out stronger. It will be tough. The prisons are damaged and my uncle is battling criminals that have escaped.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 37):
I think if you put Duvalier and Aristide up for comparison I would take Aristide

You;d have to live under both to know otherwise. But considering I've had family living under both, at least under Duvalier, it was better. Prior to Duvalier's exit, there was poverty. There was corruption too. But no boat people. That came after US intervention.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:32 am



Quoting Texan (Reply 38):
I would recommend reading David Brook's opinion piece from the 14 Jan 2010 New York Times. Interesting topic about how funds are best spent.

Thanks as always for that heads up. Basic message, building standards rather than the earthquake, then blend in cultural and historical issues - which of course probably are the cause of inadequate building standards.

You would suppose that somewhere, sometime some aid group has given advice on governance issues that should have included some guy or gal from CA who would have read the riot act on building standards. I am certain that this type is commonly given under aid programs so given the close relation of the US, 'tis difficult to believe that Haiti would not at some stage have been on the receiving end of this. There is probably an interesting tale to be told.

Meanwhile:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.construction/
A study by the Organization of American States concluded last month that many of the buildings in Haiti were so shoddily constructed that they were unlikely to survive any disaster, let alone an earthquake like the one that devastated Port-au-Prince on Tuesday, the man who supervised the report said Wednesday.

"You could tell very easily that these buildings were not going to survive even a [magnitude] 2 earthquake," said Cletus Springer, director of the Department of Sustainable Development at OAS in Washington.

Structures were built on slopes without proper foundations or containment structures, using improper building practices, insufficient steel and insufficient attention to development control, the urban planner said.

Much of the poor-quality work can be traced to the grinding poverty pervasive in Haiti, he said. "As we know, the poverty in Haiti lends itself to people building where they want, how they can," he said. "It was our experience, especially coming out of Grenada, that in the poorer countries the construction quality standards are pretty lax,"

........
But much of the Caribbean, including Haiti, has no building codes, he said. "So now we need to work with the Haitian authorities to develop a building code that is suited to Haiti and its peculiar conditions." Those peculiarities include its location on a fault line and in the path of hurricanes.

Hmmmm.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:15 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What's The Future?

Probably a benefit concert with Bono/U2, Bruce Spingsteen and the other usual benefit artist.
Bring back the Concorde
 
oly720man
Posts: 5754
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:39 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
Probably a benefit concert with Bono/U2, Bruce Spingsteen and the other usual benefit artist.

Will they be able to raise half a $billion.... small change given what the banks have been handed recently.

Haiti's largest creditor, the Inter-American Development Bank (IDB), is not part of the debt relief initiative. Haiti's debt to the IDB amounts to approximately half a billion dollars with debt service payments projected by the IMF to increase in the following years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
us330
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:34 pm

Their first priority should be getting a competent, non-corrupt government in place. Look at the frequent success stories of the kids of Haitian expats who move to countries like the U.S. and Canada, work their butts off, play by the rules, graduate from college and become members of the middle class as well as professionals in a variety of fields.
That's proof that Haitians can succeed if given the opportunity to do so.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:49 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 45):
if given the opportunity to do so.

This is were I unplug .... Can a nation and a people be "given" the opportunity to succeed ? In order to believe this in the case in Haiti, you must first believe that someone or something has been oppressing them .

The people of Haiti have not shown that they can stand up and unite in order to better their lives . Like my first post says 's , figure out how to feed yourselves , defend yourselves from corrupt government rule , and set forth on the basics of social sustenance.

In order for some outside power to "give" them the opportunity , the outside power would have to essentially rule the nation . The people have proved that they don't want colonial outside rule , and they have proved that they can not rule themselves successfully . So the answer is not easy .

This is one fucking horrible situation down there ... I don't know how it gets worse. The country was completely un prepared for this ... and is completely shattered. It is a mind boggling situation...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
MarSciGuy
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:14 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:30 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 31):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
Really ? Mexico has paid back the 4 billion from the Clinton currency stabilization ? That is encouraging news

Yep. It's been some years now.

IIRC it was repaid within a couple years? Everyone was shocked at the speed of repayment at the time, at least that's what I (a teen at the time) gleaned from the news coverage.
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9841
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:50 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 46):
I don't know how it gets worse. The country was completely un prepared for this ... and is completely shattered. It is a mind boggling situation...

I hate to be all doom and gloom, but it's going to get worse. You still have tens of thousands of corpses, maybe 100,000, in 90-100 degree temperatures and high humidity. The sanitary ramifications of all this are going to be staggering. Even the mass graves that have already been done out of necessity were mostly done without a thought of the water table.

A few years ago we were a all shocked by the Tsunami. This is on the same level of destruction and death, but all concentrated in one place.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19821
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Haiti: What's The Future?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:17 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):

I hate to be all doom and gloom, but it's going to get worse.

Already is. Survivors who were perfectly healthy are starting to get infections.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akiss20, Baidu [Spider], ha763 and 12 guests