stratosphere
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:18 pm

A 13y/o Saudi girl has been sentenced to 90 lashes for having a cell phone in school. You know maybe we might deter some things in the US if we adapted some of the harsh practices of Saudi Arabia but I think this is over the top...WAY over..


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...shes-took-mobile-phone-school.html
 
ojas
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:24 pm

Absolutely appalling, I just wonder how such a thing is going to be defended on this forum.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
luckyone
Posts: 2280
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:38 pm

Because the ban on cell phones is there to protect the girl from putting herself in a precarious position whereby she can send and receive pictures of herself - GASP! - unveiled or worse and pictures of a boy. She is also able to communicate with - GASP! - members of the opposite sex unchaperoned and we just can't have that happening.

I say that jokingly but sadly enough that's the rationale over there!
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9199
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:42 pm



Quoting Ojas (Reply 1):
Absolutely appalling, I just wonder how such a thing is going to be defended on this forum.

Not here to defend anything. Saudi Arabia is an ultra-conservative country.

When I was that age we were not allowed to wear pants in my school. We had to wear skirts or dresses. We had no uniforms but we had to wear overalls with our name and section embroidered on it. Make up was also banned. This was not a private school but s state school. They were all girls and all boys schools at the time. There was no mixing. France in the 60s was very much old fashioned conservative. I was raised in Paris. Provincial cities were even more conservative.

I remember there was punishment in elementary school. Standing in a corner with our hands on top of our head was the most common 15 minutes to 1/2 hour. Another punishment was that we had to copy a sentence chosen by the teacher from 100 to 1000 times for the next day depending on what we had done wrong. I have also seen teachers giving corporal punishment such as caning. This was in the mid-50s. I can still remember it well.

Now the times have changed. It is not rare that the students are beating up the teachers in French secondary schools.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:56 pm

I´m quite sure that our resident Saudi Arabic friend SOBH15, who AFAIK has a daughter in the same age range, will be appalled at this news. I´m also quite sure that this sentence will be cashiered by a higher court.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ronglimeng
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:58 pm

The article in the Daily Mail link is very poorly written. There seems to have been an assault on the school principal. Was the girl involved in that?

What does 90 "lashes" actually entail? Does it really mean being hit with a 2-metre long stick as shown in the Daily Mail photo attached to the article, or is it something shorter and softer for school kids?

I'm not a big fan of the Saudi system of crime-and-punishment, but it wouldn't kill the Daily Mail to provide a little more detail on this story.

Back in my elementry school days (1955-1961), if I'd assaulted the principal, I'd probably get "the strap", maybe a dozen "lashes" or more on each hand.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8937
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:12 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Saudi Arabia is an ultra-conservative country

There are many conservative societies, but there has to be a dividing line between ultra conservative and downright barbaric.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
remember there was punishment in elementary school. Standing in a corner with our hands on top of our head was the most common 15 minutes to 1/2 hour. Another punishment was that we had to copy a sentence chosen by the teacher from 100 to 1000 times for the next day depending on what we had done wrong. I have also seen teachers giving corporal punishment such as caning. This was in the mid-50s. I can still remember it well.

Most countries had corporal punishment; we had it in Ireland until about '82. I remember getting what we used to call the "biff" when I was about 7 or 8. My mother certainly remembers it; it was the way things were done - and we certainly got lines; schools must have discipline, BUT of course, there has to be a line when punishment becomes unreasonable and this is clearly over the top.
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3737
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:27 pm

I bet she'll never do it again, though.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:34 pm

There's got to be some kind of teanant of international law that frowns upon this barbaric process.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Saudi Arabia is an ultra-conservative country.

There is a big difference between conservatism and an absolute monarchy.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 7):

Yeah, we're all laughing.  Yeah sure
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
I´m quite sure that our resident Saudi Arabic friend SOBH15, who AFAIK has a daughter in the same age range, will be appalled at this news. I´m also quite sure that this sentence will be cashiered by a higher court.

Appalled? I am ashamed, I know schools have rules, my daughter is in a foreigner school and she is not allowed to have an open phone in school, if one is found in her possession she will be punished, same thing applied to my sons when they were in school in VA USA. Now if she assaulted the school principal and she did have a phone with her then her punishment is going to double. But 90 lashes is NOT acceptable. I am sure that the new minister of Justice will over rule this idiotic sentence. I really hope so.

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 5):
The article in the Daily Mail link

I usually don't take this newspaper very seriously.

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 5):
Does it really mean being hit with a 2-metre long stick as shown in the Daily Mail photo attached to the article, or is it something shorter and softer for school kids?

They use a stick and they put something under there armpit, when they strike they can not lift there arm high so that thing does not fall. They do not lash all 90 lashes the same day but over few days if not weeks.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
downright barbaric

I hear you.

[quote=Slider,reply=8]Don't use the word conservative...A better term would be “knuckle-dragging Neanderthal barbaric human rights subjugating culture immersed in a twisted ideology”, would be more appropriate

Do you have a Dictionery for insults? Where do you get all of those from?{cheeky

[Edited 2010-01-20 14:33:36]   

[Edited 2010-01-20 14:35:01]  cheeky 

[Edited 2010-01-20 14:38:06]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:43 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
Do you have a Dictionery for insults? Where do you get all of those from?

The post was not an insult, it was the truth and nothing but the truth!

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:52 pm



Quoting Stratosphere (Thread starter):
A 13y/o Saudi girl has been sentenced to 90 lashes for having a cell phone in school. You know maybe we might deter some things in the US if we adapted some of the harsh practices of Saudi Arabia but I think this is over the top...WAY over..

And yet the USA fully supports and endorses the Saudi government time after time. The 9/11 bombers were Saudi too. But they got a free pass and Iraq got invaded.

It's barbaric in the extreme! And it just shows you one example of why the US (and other western democracies) who give tacit approval to Saudi's "King" to step on the throats of humans/citizens of Saudi Arabia by fully backing, financing, and arming the dictator posing as monarch King Abdullah with tens of billions of dollars worth of flying death machines.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11094
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:59 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 13):
And yet the USA fully supports and endorses the Saudi government time after time.

Sometimes you must befriend bad people to fight worse people.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 13):
But they got a free pass and Iraq got invaded.

And they don't lash teenage girls in Iraq. The invasion of Iraq largely had an idealist foundation rather than a realist one. It is a fine line between respecting sovereignty and standing idly while human rights abuses take place.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:43 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Sometimes you must befriend bad people to fight worse people.

Huh? It has nothing to do with "enemy" or "friend". It's called oil. The Afghan Taliban were "our friends" (USA) when they were "freedom fighters" against the "evil" Soviets. Saddam was a "friend" of the USA's CIA who installed him into power and the US sold arms and chemical weapons to him because he was "a friend" vs. the "enemy" Iran, who the US did business too during the Iran-Contra era to sell arms to Iran against our "friend" Iraq, in exchange for getting more weapons to the "freedom fighters" in Nicaragua because the new government there was our "enemy" and needed to be overthrown because they were socialist *gasp*, even though democratically elected in 1984 because the US supported and endorsed the "King" who's family were dictators over Nicaragua for the previous 50 years and toadies of the US government. That evil socialist Daniel Ortega was again democratically elected in 2006 and is Nicaragua's sitting president now, which was much chagrin to the Bushies.

See a pattern here yet? So tell me again about backing "good" against "evil".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
And they don't lash teenage girls in Iraq.

Is that a statement or a question?
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:44 pm

Saudi Arabia is a great country and a big time ally to the US and the Bush family......
Is it over the top? Of course...who am I to judge...but I have the utmost respect for the Saudis
Our Returning Champion
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:04 am

Of course sooner or later people come alone with the relativist line that whatever people want to do within their own national borders to their own people is justified.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:23 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Of course sooner or later people come alone with the relativist line that whatever people want to do within their own national borders to their own people is justified.

I'd call those people apologists, not relativists, but you expressed my thoughts exactly.  checkmark 

Personally, I'm ashamed and appaled by this. Where is the legal justification for this barbaric action? Punishment to impose discipline in a school is all fine by me, but the moment this punishment becomes physical is simply crossing a line nobody should EVER cross. If this happened to my kids, I would have pressed charges against the man for child abuse and grievous bodily harm (this for me goes beyond "simple" battery for me).
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19628
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:32 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):

Sometimes you must befriend bad people to fight worse people.

Um... or to get oil?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 am

Just to put it in perspective:

A similar offense (bringing an illegal mobile phone into school) over here would lead to the teacher confiscating the offending mobile and to hand it over to the parents.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:00 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Of course sooner or later people come alone with the relativist line that whatever people want to do within their own national borders to their own people is justified.

Who are we to judge right? Because we are different and we assume the title as the default culture....posts above me are calling it a “knuckle-dragging Neanderthal barbaric human rights subjugating culture immersed in a twisted ideology”,
Our Returning Champion
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:53 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
A similar offense (bringing an illegal mobile phone into school) over here would lead to the teacher confiscating the offending mobile and to hand it over to the parents.

Same here in the US and you'd be surprised how the kids and parents react.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:36 am



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 13):
And yet the USA fully supports and endorses the Saudi government time after time. The 9/11 bombers were Saudi too. But they got a free pass and Iraq got invaded.

It's barbaric in the extreme! And it just shows you one example of why the US (and other western democracies) who give tacit approval to Saudi's "King" to step on the throats of humans/citizens of Saudi Arabia by fully backing, financing, and arming the dictator posing as monarch King Abdullah with tens of billions of dollars worth of flying death machines.

Oh dear MoltenRock... The angst..... We have caning in Singapore too..... and we're arguably a dictatorship (except unlike most dictatorship our dictator looks after us HAHA). However we don't produce terrorists who blow themselves up in other countries, thankfully.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

Offences punishable by caning
Singaporean law allows caning to be ordered for over 30 offences, including robbery, gang robbery with murder, drug use, vandalism, and rioting.[3] Caning is also a mandatory punishment for certain offences such as rape, drug trafficking and for visiting foreigners who overstay their visa by more than 90 days.[4]
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:55 am



Quoting Docpepz (Reply 25):
Caning is also a mandatory punishment for certain offences such as rape, drug trafficking and for visiting foreigners who overstay their visa by more than 90 days.[4]

I can certainly see that a visa over stay should warrent the same punishment as a rapist..  sarcastic 
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:54 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Sometimes you must befriend bad people to fight worse people.

Yeah, that's what got us into this war in the first place. I rather not see that mistake repeated.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 17):

Give us one reason why that regime should be respected.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):

And then another Rwanda will happen, or worse.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:14 am

I'm going to sound like an asshole in that I'm going to ask "What are you going to do about it?" Yes, I completely agree that this should not be tolerated and that Saudi should not have such laws, but I think it's a fair question. Besides championing human rights on an internet forum and then forgetting about this story 3 or 4 days later, how are YOU planning to change the laws or the minds of the people in such countries? And just how far are you willing to go? Do you support international action against countries that engage in such practices (abuses)? Embargoes? Sanctions? Military Action? Do you vote with your wallet and boycott companies that headquarter or conduct business with such countries like Saudi Arabia? (Don't fill up your fuel tank at Shell or Mobil). My point (and again I know I'm sounding like the asshole here, but I think it needs to be said and asked) is I find it amazing how many people so easily say "This is terrible. This is unjustified. Something has to be done!" but will then turn the blind eye or simply forget if the action is required be from them.

This will probably go unheeded but actually consider what I'm asking and saying before coming back with any knee-jerk reactions.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 13):

I was surprised it took 13 posts before a thread about Saudi Arabia turned into a US blaming & bashing thread. But hey, thanks to the post from Docpepz, seems the country of the flag you choose to fly on here isn't much better, huh?
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:26 am

If she is a Saudi citizen it is highly unlikely she will be punished. Normally there is some last minute pardon and the dad has to go begging to someone in an office somewhere. All in a day's work.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:42 am

Unfortunately there are numerous violations of peoples rights/well being that occur in various countries all over the place every day that I think are terrible but, and its a big but, we must learn that we are NOT all the same nor do we think along the same lines as other nationalities, and thank heavens that is the case.

We are the ones that must stop trying to instill our values on others, no matter how much we think they are right or superior to theirs. And you know how this has got us onto trouble previously with war's, embargo's and sanctions that go on and on with little or no effect, just look at the trouble were are in in the middle east now.

I think evolution will change this for us. Of course it will take along time, but culture's evolve and change over time, hopefully for the better, especially when they realise that its completely unreasonable to act like this when the rest of the world dose not.

I know its very difficult and our values want us to do something to stop this outrageous behavior now ,but all we will do is get into more aggression with others and that's not going to help anyone, (like this girl) nor will it change the ideals or cultural values of the people in these nations.

I just think time will do it for us.The world is becoming a much smaller place on a daily basis and this will also help us change things as peoples in these perticular countries will gradually develop.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:27 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
I was surprised it took 13 posts before a thread about Saudi Arabia turned into a US blaming & bashing thread.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
but will then turn the blind eye or simply forget if the action is required be from them.

This will probably go unheeded but actually consider what I'm asking and saying before coming back with any knee-jerk reactions.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. While I am a guest of the government of Singapore on behalf of my company and therefore not a citizen of Singapore, does not mean I support corporal punishment, any more than your position is that this girl should be waterboarded instead, (unless of course that's what you do believe).

That said, comparing Singapore's caning punishment for convicted criminals is nowhere near the punishment doled out on this 13 year old that brought a cell phone to school. It's as similar as stating the United States and Iran are identical because they both slaughter criminals.
 
directorguy
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:21 am

90 lashes for something that trivial is ridiculous. This girl should be suspended or expelled, not get the same punishment as an adultress or thief would. I'm surprised this was taken to court. But rest assured, there will probably be a massive outcry over this and at the last minute King A will probably issue a pardon, just like he did with the Qateef chick.
 
Mudboy
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:33 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
I'm going to sound like an asshole in that I'm going to ask "What are you going to do about it?" Yes, I completely agree that this should not be tolerated and that Saudi should not have such laws, but I think it's a fair question. Besides championing human rights on an internet forum and then forgetting about this story 3 or 4 days later, how are YOU planning to change the laws or the minds of the people in such countries? And just how far are you willing to go? Do you support international action against countries that engage in such practices (abuses)? Embargoes? Sanctions? Military Action? Do you vote with your wallet and boycott companies that headquarter or conduct business with such countries like Saudi Arabia? (Don't fill up your fuel tank at Shell or Mobil). My point (and again I know I'm sounding like the asshole here, but I think it needs to be said and asked) is I find it amazing how many people so easily say "This is terrible. This is unjustified. Something has to be done!" but will then turn the blind eye or simply forget if the action is required be from them.

Excellent post! I agree, you make a very valid point. I constantly hear people make statements about, why do we(many Governments, not just the US) support countries that do bad things, or we turn a blind eye, just because they have oil? And my question is, are you willing to walk, or ride a bicycle where ever you go? Are you ready to grow your own food and make your own clothes? Are you ready to stop flying on airplanes? Everything you see around you, even the computer in front of you, was shipped in a plane, boat, train etc. and brought to the store in a truck, and you took a car, bus etc. to go buy it, and they all use fuel, which is made from oil. Can you imagine a world without it. Whether we like it or not, oil is a part of our way of life in the modern world, which is why some Governments, turn a blind eye, to things like this, as to not upset the Countries that have it. How much are we as people, willing to sacrifice, to stop this mistreatment of humans?

I in know way, support this treatment of humans, but why are we surprised at this type of punishment, when you have public be-headings, or they cut your hand off for stealing?
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:59 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Not here to defend anything. Saudi Arabia is an ultra-conservative country.

Well, I agree with mobile phone bans in schools. But not the harsh punishment. Back in my day mobile phones were fairly new - and if you had one, you were in big, big trouble.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Sometimes you must befriend bad people to fight worse people.

Like befriending Saddam Hussein, and giving him guns and bombs, and maps the better to aim them..

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
A similar offense (bringing an illegal mobile phone into school) over here would lead to the teacher confiscating the offending mobile and to hand it over to the parents.

Mobiles in schools cause all manner of problems - especially now that they take video, photos and are on the internet, etc. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on the dangers. I could - but I won't.
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:44 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 17):

Give us one reason why that regime should be respected.

Internationally and diplomatically, they already are...who cares if you don't.....

[Edited 2010-01-21 05:45:41 by thegreatRDU]
Our Returning Champion
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:24 pm



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 26):
I can certainly see that a visa over stay should warrent the same punishment as a rapist..

Maybe the number of lashes is what determines the severity of the punishment.

In any event, while I don't agree with this form of punishment, the country has it's laws. Who are we to ask them to change it. Yes there is a double standard because we use this pretext in some cases to warrant intervention, i.e. giving the people a chance at a better life. But a good life is relative, and what we consider normal, may differ from what another culture considers normal.
There is something special about planes....
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9869
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:03 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
I have also seen teachers giving corporal punishment such as caning. This was in the mid-50s. I can still remember it well.

We also had corporal punishment in New Zealand up until 1990 I think, the last time I was cained in school was when I was 16 in 1999, when corporal punichment was removed disciplin in my all boys school was terrible, I had not problem with being cained it was much better than detention.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
They do not lash all 90 lashes the same day but over few days if not weeks.

I would hope for a 13 year old girl they do it over several weeks, not a few days.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:55 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 31):
near the punishment doled out on this 13 year old that brought a cell phone to school.

Lets not forget that she also assaulted the school principal. It's not an excuse but lets put things in prospective.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37):
I would hope for a 13 year old girl they do it over several weeks, not a few days.

Trust me it will not happen. For the local newspapers writing about it suggests a pardon is forthcoming.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:05 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 31):
Perhaps you should take your own advice. While I am a guest of the government of Singapore on behalf of my company and therefore not a citizen of Singapore, does not mean I support corporal punishment, any more than your position is that this girl should be waterboarded instead, (unless of course that's what you do believe).

So let me get this straight, because people in the US conduct business with Saudi Arabia, we endorse this type of barbaric punishment again and again, yet even though YOU conduct business directly with Singapore and live there, you do not endorse their behavior. Can you explain that?

Quoting Captaink (Reply 36):
Who are we to ask them to change it.

I think we have every right to ask them to change it if the way they treat people is indeed barbaric. The question is how far are we allowed to go in getting them to change it? Is it up to individuals to boycott companies based in Saudi Arabia or that heavily import oil or other products from Saudi? Is it up to governments to intervene with sanctions, embargoes, or even military action? I admit that I don't know what the right answer is. But to call this action "terrible" and "barbaric" and then do nothing and forget about it three days later is not the answer, IMO.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 33):
How much are we as people, willing to sacrifice, to stop this mistreatment of humans?

I think that's about as good of a way to word what I was saying as there will be.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:01 pm

The average caning, if sentenced, is between 3 and 6 lashes. Only males from 16 years of age to 50 years of age are caned, except in a very small handful of cases whereby only the High Court (USA equiv. to the Supreme Court) can order someone under 16 who has been convicted to be caned, and has to my knowledge only been inflicted on 14 or 15 year olds who have committed murder, rape, or drug trafficking using a weapon. Those over 50 are automatically dismissed from caning.

Illegal immigrants that have been in the country illegally too are caned. As a foreigner who is a director/manager of a corporation I too can be caned if I knowingly hire illegal immigrants or traffic in drugs or fireworks.

Usually Americans then bring up Michael Fay and how terrible it is to cane, while knowing nothing about the case, anything about the "kid", the punishment, or the process. Usually it's something along the lines of, "OMG! Singapore, that's like..... you know..... the place where that kid got... like... whipped and stuff..... for .... like chewing gum or somethin...... OMG ..... like..... how can you live there.... and stuff"?

[Edited 2010-01-21 12:32:38 by srbmod]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:37 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 41):


The average caning, if sentenced, is between 3 and 6 lashes. Only males from 16 years of age to 50 years of age are caned, except in a very small handful of cases whereby only the High Court (USA equiv. to the Supreme Court) can order someone under 16 who has been convicted to be caned, and has to my knowledge only been inflicted on 14 or 15 year olds who have committed murder, rape, or drug trafficking using a weapon. Those over 50 are automatically dismissed from caning.

It has to be made clear that there exists a massive difference in quality between a Singaporean (Malaysiand and Brunaian) caning and the type of whipping this girl has been sentenced to:
The Singaporean caning derives from an old corporal punishment from British colonial times (this is the reason why the same punishment also exists in the two other former British colonies. Back then the Royal Navy and the British Army still used the cat o´nine tails, a punishment, which would occasionally kill the convict ).
The convict has to undress and is then, after a quick medical check, strapped bent over to a stout wooden frame, so that the skin of his buttocks is streched to a maximum and he can´t move to evade the blows. A pad is placed over hisscrotom to prevent the testicles from being hit accidentally.
Then a strong, athletic prison guard, usually a martial arts black belt, hits him using a 2 yards long 3/4" thick rattan cane, which has been soaked in brine for a night to make it more elastic.
The guard uses his full power, often running a few steps to increase momentum. The blow is so hard that it will split the skin. After about twenty seconds, there will be the next blow, counted by another guard and witnessed by a comitee including the prosecutor and the prison chief.
Afterwards the prisoner the wounds get treated with some desinfactant and bandaged.
The convict is not able to walk properly or sit down for several days and will carry scars for the rest of his life. This is also why the number of strikes at any session iks limited. Too many strikes can definitely kill.

The type of flogging carried out in conservative Islamic countries is different:
The convict, especially if it is a woman, will be dressed. The cane is much shorter (maybe 1 yard) and thinner (IIIRC maximum the thickness of a thumb). The guard carrying out the punishment has to put something under his arm, I´ve heard a copy of the Q´ran, so that he can´t lift his upper arm, so he can only use his elbow and his wrist.
The strikes are being distributed all over the back, and not concentrated on the bare, streched skin of the buttocks.
It will definiktely hurt, and I hate to have this punishment applied to a girl for something as non-sensical as bringing a mobile phone to school, but AFAIK, it will not leave physical scars.
What I find absurd is the number of strikes, but the Singaporean version is defintely more brutal.

Quoting Cpd (Reply 34):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
A similar offense (bringing an illegal mobile phone into school) over here would lead to the teacher confiscating the offending mobile and to hand it over to the parents.

Mobiles in schools cause all manner of problems - especially now that they take video, photos and are on the internet, etc. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on the dangers. I could - but I won't.

Well, no mobiles available when I went to school (back in the 1970s-1980s     ), but occasionally I would bring a camera and take pictures in school, no problem with this.
The only problem I had in school when I brought something, was in primary school. As a boy I was used to carry a pocket knife, as a tool, as I was taught by my parents. When I was in about grade 4, my dad gave my brother and me each a nice pocket knife he bought on a business trip in Spain. I was proud of it and next day brought it to school to show it to my friends.
One boy took it and held it against the throat of a girl, as he had seen on TV (TV for us was heavily censored by our parents, we were not allowed to watch e.g. detective movies etc., only cartoons and children programmes). The girl complained to the teacher, who confiscated the knife and aked my parents to see her in school.
My mother went there and explained to her that for us knives were considered tools, not weapons. She returned the knife to me, but I had to promise that I would never bring it to school again. I still could carry it after school while playing outside.

Concerning the assault, here, since children are only considered partialy responsible for their deeds from 14 years of age onwards (until they are 18, then tey are fully responsible adults), punishment would be up to the parents. Obviously, a student, who attacks a teacher would be kicked out of school and had to go to another one (due to having to attend school mandatorily until the age of 16). If she would have been older than 14, police would have been involved.
In highschool I had a few (male )teachers, who probaly would have socked and knocked out a teenager trying to attack them (and the matter would have been over afterwards).

Jan

[Edited 2010-01-21 12:33:31 by srbmod]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Mudboy
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:47 pm

Just curious, with all the harsh punishment in Saudi, what is the crime rate like over there? I would think it is pretty low, but have no idea, which is why I ask?
 
BMI727
Posts: 11094
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:03 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 16):
It's called oil.

Sometimes you must befriend bad people to get oil as well. All in a day's work.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
Yeah, that's what got us into this war in the first place. I rather not see that mistake repeated.

Flame me if you want, but I think that helping keep the Soviets out of Afghanistan was a good idea. Not to mention that it payed huge dividends decades later when we were able to take down the country with only a couple hundred men.

Quoting Cpd (Reply 34):
Like befriending Saddam Hussein, and giving him guns and bombs, and maps the better to aim them..

Yeah, so he could fight the Iranians who we didn't like and didn't like us. Wouldn't it be nice if there were just bad guys and good guys like in the movies?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
Give us one reason why that regime should be respected

Because if we need to get things done in the region it would be nice to have them on our side. I am not taking sides, but I think the truth here is that the possibility of a teenager getting whipped as punishment is not nearly enough to risk damage to a diplomatic relationship.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:06 am



Quoting Mudboy (Reply 38):
Just curious, with all the harsh punishment in Saudi, what is the crime rate like over there? I would think it is pretty low, but have no idea, which is why I ask?

It is very low indeed. Without being prejudice 80% of crimes are committed by foreigners, murder cases are very low. Now if they get there driving act together KSA will be a much safer place.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:19 pm



Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
There is a big difference between conservatism and an absolute monarchy.

They also have nothing to do with each other. A monarchy can be very progressive. Saudi Arabia's is very oppressive.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
There's got to be some kind of teanant of international law that frowns upon this barbaric process.

There should be, but the west (not just the US!) are big friends with them because of their oil and willingness to sell it to us.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 11):
And yet the USA fully supports and endorses the Saudi government time after time.

Again, not just the US is guilty of that.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 14):
but I have the utmost respect for the Saudis

Why? They have an oppressive regime that has nothing but disdain for it's citizens. The difference between "haves" and "have nots" is huge. Not to mention the way foreign workers are treated. I have no respect for them.

Quoting Docpepz (Reply 21):
We have caning in Singapore too

Yes, but no crime will get you 90 strokes.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 22):
the same punishment as a rapist

Not the same at all. You will get a lot less strokes for being in the country illegal.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 36):
Usually Americans then bring up Michael Fay and how terrible it is to cane, while knowing nothing about the case, anything about the "kid", the punishment, or the process.

Indeed. I read about the case and he got off easy. You need to know that when you are in a foreign country, you have to abide by their rules. This brat went on a rampage.

Hey, I love Singapore.. that's why I'm moving there this year...
 Big grin
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:52 pm



Quoting Kappel (Reply 41):
Why? They have an oppressive regime that has nothing but disdain for it's citizens. The difference between "haves" and "have nots" is huge. Not to mention the way foreign workers are treated. I have no respect for them.

And from where you get this information, i am not saying everything is dandy here but Saudis are much better off than a lot of other countries i know.
Foreign workers are treated much better than any other Gulf country.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 41):
Hey, I love Singapore..

So do I. Goes there at least once a year, i respect there laws and i even flush.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 41):
There should be, but the west (not just the US!) are big friends with them because of their oil and willingness to sell it to us.

KSA can sell the oil in the open markets there is no shortage of buyers.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
ojas
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:41 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 42):
Foreign workers are treated much better than any other Gulf country.

Are you kidding??????

A whole movie can be made on how Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are treated in Saudi. Not that other gulf countries are treating them good, but Saudi is the worst of them all.

Poverty drives them to seek jobs for few hundred riyals there, but they swallow all that just because they have jobs there and are feeding their families back home. Ask anyone from the Indian subcontinent after they return from Saudi, and they will say hell is a better place.

There is reason why those laborers work there, but just because they don't say anything doesn't mean they are leading a happy life.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:55 pm



Quoting Ojas (Reply 43):
A whole movie can be made on how Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are treated in Saudi.

Not to mention the Indonesian, Phillipina, etc, housemaids.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:13 pm



Quoting Ojas (Reply 43):
Are you kidding??????

No i am not.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 43):
Ask anyone from the Indian subcontinent after they return from Saudi, and they will say hell is a better place.



Quoting Kappel (Reply 44):
Not to mention the Indonesian, Phillipina, etc, housemaids.

If that is so why they keep coming? By law here, employer should provide housing, medical, transportation etc... Tell me any other country which provide the same for foreign workers. I will not deny that there few cases of mistreatment but this are not very high here in the KSA. Other Gulf state did have more problems.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
ojas
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:30 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 45):
If that is so why they keep coming

==>>> Read this.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 43):
Poverty drives them to seek jobs for few hundred riyals there, but they swallow all that just because they have jobs there and are feeding their families back home



Quoting Ojas (Reply 43):
There is reason why those laborers work there, but just because they don't say anything doesn't mean they are leading a happy life.

As I say it again, just for money nothing else. Most of these people come to Saudi out of compulsion not out of choice.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 45):
By law here, employer should provide housing, medical, transportation etc...

Yes and what about its implementation?

Just putting up 5 portable cabins and stuffing 100 people in that next to a construction site and just throwing anti biotics is not housing, transportation and medical care.

If the employers are so correct and "law biding" why are passports snatched from these people the day they set foot in Saudi? It's not that these people are given advance salaries, that they will run away without working. If you wan't to compare the rest of the GCC and Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Oman and Bahrain are way better places to live in.

Again please don't take this as an attack against you. I appreciate the fact that you try to put the best points in a discussion, but then your argument that Saudi is better than the rest of the GCC is totally incorrect.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:54 pm



Quoting Ojas (Reply 46):
Again please don't take this as an attack against you

As long as our discussion is civilized i never take the postings as a personal attack, i read a lot of your postings and i have a lot of respect to you.

There is a lot of cases where employee revolted against the employers for late payment and or bad facilities long working hours in some GCC counties none of them was in KSA.

Also medical insurance was obligatory since 01/2009 for all employees even foreigner, they are treated by medical doctors in clinics or hospitals.

As long as i am trying to speak from personal knowledge i am in the picture about housing but where i work and i am not in construction the limit per room is 2-3 and every 2 rooms have it own facilities. All rooms are equipped with TVs and we have special channels with there country programming.

Salaries are paid on the 28th of each month.
Contracts are for 2 years renewable if both sides agree to do that.


Foreign workers like Mexican, South Americans and Africans in foreign countries are treated much worth that that.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
ojas
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:13 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
none of them was in KSA.

Well does the media have unrestricted access in Saudi? The very fact that such things are reported in Qatar, UAE, Oman etc shows there are forums available for their grievances. And there are. In Qatar as long as the Al thani family is not involved you can go to the Gulf times, Peninsula, Jazeera and lodge your complaint and it will be published in the media.

I think as you follow my posts, you might know I was born and brought up in Qatar and can assert that on human grounds Qatar scores better. You would be happy to know women have so many privileges there. Qatar probably has the first "first lady" in the region. With Shiekha Moza as the co founder of Qatar Foundation and many other charitable endeavors, she has uplifted the women are thrown by the men out of the house after divorce. Such ladies have been educated and now have any jobs in the govt agencies. If you see the Doha immigration, you will see out of 13-14 counters 9-10 will be manned by ladies .. and they are FAR more efficient than the men.

Now given that I'm stone pelting this society with faults, I see there are some remedies for this as well. Again, its not that Qataris are angels, but with the emphasis of education and more awareness, today those very kids, who were once upon a time the most barbaric creatures on earth; are now a pleasant bunch to communicate with.

Education is the key, as more and more Saudis get educated and the Al Saud family realises the importance of treating women humanly and treating other r religions with respect and a more inclusive society, YET keeping the Islamic values on the top; it will be a pleasant place to be in.

Also the oil is going to be over one day, then all this dictatorship will go away in a short span of time.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
As long as i am trying to speak from personal knowledge i am in the picture about housing but where i work and i am not in construction the limit per room is 2-3 and every 2 rooms have it own facilities. All rooms are equipped with TVs and we have special channels with there country programming.

Salaries are paid on the 28th of each month.
Contracts are for 2 years renewable if both sides agree to do that.


Foreign workers like Mexican, South Americans and Africans in foreign countries are treated much worth that that.

I believe you. But the hundreds and thousands of complaints filed with the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi et al embassies the good ones are a handful and the bad ones are too many.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: 13yo Saudi Girl Sentenced To 90 Lashes

Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:29 pm



Quoting Ojas (Reply 48):
Well does the media have unrestricted access in Saudi? The very fact that such things are reported in Qatar, UAE, Oman etc shows there are forums available for their grievances. And there are. In Qatar as long as the Al thani family is not involved you can go to the Gulf times, Peninsula, Jazeera and lodge your complaint and it will be published in the media.

If there is anything wrong in KSA, AlJazzeera will make sure they show it. No love lost here.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 48):
Education is the key

I have been saying that in my postings but that need time, Qatar, Bahrain are small in comparison of KSA and also communities in those small countries are easier to educate and get rid of those extreme religious way of life.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 48):
But the hundreds and thousands of complaints filed with the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi et al embassies the good ones are a handful and the bad ones are too many.

Well if things are going fine nobody will write about it. But if something is wrong then people tend to write tens of letters of complaint. This is human nature.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google Adsense [Bot] and 18 guests