MoltenRock
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Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:20 am

As some of you may have been following, over the past couple of weeks, a defense contractor (Trijicon Inc., Wixom, MI) which sells weapons to the military, and in this case rifle sights has come under fire for stamping bible verses on their weapons that troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and other nations where American boys and girls are actively fighting in, have stamped on them. Around 1/3 of a million rifle sights have been made for this military, and its deployment.

Upon learning of this Gen. David Petraeus (head military dude in charge in the middle east) said it was "disturbing". The US military is barred from preaching, proselytizing, or even trying to convert Iraqis or Afghanis due to the religious sensitivity issue.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583566,00.html

An official spokesman for the US military had been claiming, that "the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban" and was akin to the term "In God We Trust" on US coinage. Needless to say this set the FOX news pinheads a gaga with insipid, childish, retorts.

As Steve Doocey from Fox News said on the Bible rifles...."If Anybody's Making This A Religious Thing, The Terrorists 'Started It".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU6_s9txcCE


So, should the military allow these to stay on their rifles or should they go?
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:08 pm

Well, I guess that officially makes it a crusade...

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HOMER71
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:15 pm

Looks like the contractor will be removing the "offending" stamps.

Case closed, non-issue, big deal, move along, nothing to see here, etc.
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cgnnrw
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:51 pm

Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

If I hire someone to paint my house and give him specific details on how I want it done I expect him to follow my directive. I won't accept his decision to paint whatever he likes without checking with me first. So the gov't wants them to stop putting Biblical references on their rifles because they are paying for those rifles. If the gov't instructs the contractor topaint the rifles bright orange and pay for bright orange rifles then the contractor has no choice but do what the gov't wants.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:30 pm

FYI, the verse number stamped on the rifles is John 8:12:

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

Personally I don't care if they stay or not.
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Aaron747
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:03 pm



Quoting Homer71 (Reply 2):
Looks like the contractor will be removing the "offending" stamps.

Gee I wonder why?

The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with the contractor, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.

Translation: knock this stuff off before it motivates the enemy more than they already are.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...us_military_weapons_bible_passages

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

Hell no. It's illegal. The company or its managers have personal views that they wanted reflected in their products. The Yahoo article says the founder of the company began the practice. Their attitude on the issue is plainly dumb:

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"


Why would it even be necessary?  Yeah sure Just keep going to Church if you love Scripture so much. Not sure how Jesus would feel about it being inscribed on weapons anyhow.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
FYI, the verse number stamped on the rifles is John 8:12:

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

That's not the only passage in use..

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"

Personally I'm glad the USMC and whomever else has moved quickly to get these morons to stop putting these on their products. I also feel it's irresponsible of the media to report stories like these since they don't have any bearing on anything on domestic soil but read badly abroad.
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mt99
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:05 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

I am sure that there are many other passages from other Holy Books that are just as inspirational. Would a verse from the Koran or the Torah be taken as lightly?
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ual777
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:48 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):

Translation: knock this stuff off before it motivates the enemy more than they already are.

No, the USMC has known about these things for a while. In fact MOST guys like that sort of thing, and the others do not care. It sounds more likely that some politicians are making phone calls.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

It is a small "personal touch." Its very small to see, and the Taliban or Iraqi training with it would never notice it unless it was pointed out to them.

The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.
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MoltenRock
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:18 pm



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

Seems like the company is idiotic for doing it in the first place, seeing it broke the law.

You know that whole separation of church and state thing and all, is moot just so long as its of dubious xtian background. What about our fighting men and women who are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, or other?

Would the reaction from Christians be "hey it's an inspirational message" if it had been Sura 2:193 from the Qur'an? How can anyone for a moment think that stamping the teachings of a pacifist like Jesus on a weapon of war to slaughter others is ok? Talk about WWJD moment some Christians need to take is an understatement.

I'd bet $100 this guy's true motivation for adding scripture to his company's weapons is to soothe his conscience about claiming to be a "devout Christian" while making instruments of war. The owner Glyn Bindon, crashed and died in an airplane accident a few years ago near get this.... "Gunsight Mountain". LOL. Karma.

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Scorpio
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:34 pm

..and people still wonder why many Muslims think the current wars are in fact wars against their religion, by Christians. With shit like this, no wonder...
 
Springbok747
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:07 pm



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

No, the company is idiotic for printing religious stuff. They have no business bringing religion into any of their products.
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fxramper
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:16 pm

Drop that righteous hammer of God!  bigthumbsup  Relative is in the suck and wrote Ps. 23:4 on the stock of his rifle.  yes  I guess it was a slow news day. I own two Trijicon (reflex) and have no plans to not give them my business in the future.
 
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:21 pm



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 9):
..and people still wonder why many Muslims think the current wars are in fact wars against their religion, by Christians. With shit like this, no wonder...

Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope. It should not have been printed there, but if these religious fanatics think it is holy war, we DID NOT give them that idea, so stop blaming everything on religion.
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Falcon84
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:29 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Thread starter):
So, should the military allow these to stay on their rifles or should they go?

No. Didn't President Bush say this was not a war against Islam? Then why preach another faith when it wasn't wanted? As was said above, it makes it look like another Crusade.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Personally I don't care if they stay or not.

Personally, I do, because that's not part of the mission, to spread the word of Jesus. Leave that to the Church, not the military.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 12):
Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope.

So two wrongs make a right, eh? Again, this isn't about which faith is better-it's about people over their perverting their fath, and killing in the Name of Allah. Should we reciprocate by killing in the name of Jesus Christ? I don't think so.
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DocLightning
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:34 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

An odd choice for a weapon, don't you think? Then again... whoever is IN FRONT of the weapon will die and whoever FOLLOWS the weapon might have the light of life.  duck 
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:41 pm



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

Why? I'd say just the opposite. Don't forget that the media is a business like any other. They're there to make money. I'd say this is certainly "newsworthy", in the sense that it brings exposure to media outlets.

If it causes a problem when it's reported, then I'd say the company was idiotic for putting it on there in the first place. You never know what might get noticed.
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Scorpio
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:03 pm

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 12):
Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope.

How about I don't 'give you a friggin' break'? Yes, religious fanatics declared holy war years ago. But the West, including the U.S., have gone out of their way to DENY that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are faught for religious reasons, or are wars against Islam. This is met with a lot of skepticism by many Muslims, including the moderate ones who we NEED on our side if we want a passing chance of ever winning the struggle against fanaticism. Skepticism which in the past has already been fueled by such things as Bush's 'crusade' remark, or the SecDef spicing up his reports on the war with Bible verses.

Now this crap comes along, and it's not going to help the cause one bit. I don't give a damn what the fanatics on the other side think about these verses, but we SHOULD care what the moderate Muslims think about this, because it's precisely things like this which can push a few more over to the fanatical side. And we don't need that.

[Edited 2010-01-22 13:05:39]
 
zanl188
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:04 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
An odd choice for a weapon, don't you think? Then again... whoever is IN FRONT of the weapon will die and whoever FOLLOWS the weapon might have the light of life.

The Bible verse is on a night vision sight not the weapon itself. A starlight, starbright or NVG type of attachment enabling the user to sight the weapon at night.
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Aaron747
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:36 pm

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
In fact MOST guys like that sort of thing, and the others do not care. It sounds more likely that some politicians are making phone calls.

Clearly not the case as the article cites a military watchdog group who has been contacted by active personnel who complain about it anonymously.

[Edited 2010-01-22 15:34:29 by EI787]
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AGM100
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:40 pm



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):
moderate Muslims think about this

Although I see your point and I understand the idea .... in my opinion the verses are not on the scopes to prove Christianities superiority to Islam. And I will be honest ...if a person ( Muslim) does not understand that we are not "fighting against Islam" then what can we ever do to prove the point.?

When we hear the extremists say " America is attacking Islam" what does that even mean ? If we were going to attack Islam .... what would we do ? I really do not think a attack on Islam would be anything like our forces are doing now . Its ridiculous to even worry about a perception that we are attacking Islam ... think about it. It is a propaganda ploy by them to instill caution and fear in us ... I reject it ..totally.

Many of our troops gather and pray everyday before they go out on missions ... I guess this could be used in AQ propaganda as well.
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santosdumont
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RE: Bible Rifles

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:12 pm

The verses cited seem tepid. I mean, if you're gonna put a verse on a rifle make it the one that Samuel L. Jackson cited in Pulp Fiction (Ezekiel 25:17)

One alternative could be to inscribe E Pluribus Unum on the sight.
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Scorpio
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:45 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
in my opinion the verses are not on the scopes to prove Christianities superiority to Islam.

Never said they were, but that IS how they will be used by extremists to try and convince moderates that this is a war against Islam, not just against the radicals. And in combination with Bush calling it a crusade, and the SecDef spicing up his report with Bible verses, it's not exactly a surprise that quite a few Muslims are at least very skeptic about what these wars are about...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Its ridiculous to even worry about a perception that we are attacking Islam ... think about it.

I don't care what the radicals think, but I do care what the moderates think, because if they start being convinced this is an attack against their whole religion (and crap like this isn't exactly going to help to convince them otherwise) then we have an even more serious problem on our hands.
 
hercppmx
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:05 am

I wonder how many military members actually noticed it? I hadn't even noticed it until someone pointed it out 3 days ago. Its stamped in very small letters at the base of the optic right above the clamp that holds the optic to the mounting rail of the weapon. Personally I'm not a religious person and don't mind that it's there. I understand that the verse being there could anger some. In any case Trijicon could write anything they want on the optic and i'd still prefer it to steel sights.
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CALTECH
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:36 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
Well, I guess that officially makes it a crusade...

A Crusade Against Jihad. Can live with that.
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johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:45 pm

I"ve been dealing with Trijicon for years and never noticed it until this story brought it up and even then it was hard to see.
 
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:20 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Thread starter):
(Trijicon Inc., Wixom, MI)

My car was made there in Wixom.

I do not like the idea of religious quotes on rifles used for US military personnel.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 8):
What about our fighting men and women who are Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, or other?

Have any of them complained about this?
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iairallie
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:14 pm



Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
If I hire someone to paint my house and give him specific details on how I want it done I expect him to follow my directive. I won't accept his decision to paint whatever he likes without checking with me first

You are comparing a service to a product. Poor analogy.

It sounds to me like the references were there before the government made the choice to purchase from this manufacturer.

If the government didn't like it they could have gone with another manufacturer or they could have specified that they wanted the references removed. Which they did not do until recently. The company can then agree to remove them (the smart business option) as they did or legitimately turn down the contract as the sayings were included when the deal was originally brokered.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
So the gov't wants them to stop putting Biblical references on their rifles because they are paying for those rifles.

So they ARE going to stop out of respect for the wishes of their largest customer.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
If the gov't instructs the contractor topaint the rifles bright orange and pay for bright orange rifles then the contractor has no choice but do what the gov't wants.

Not so the contractor can turn down the contract, there is always a choice even if it is a dumb one.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said.

Depends on the quote. Plenty of legitimate pearls of wisdom contained in other books of scripture. You don't have to believe that particular faith to enjoy an inspirational saying. Heck plenty of fictional literary works have great inspiring phrases contained within. The fact that the book is made up doesn't detract from the value.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):
I am sure that there are many other passages from other Holy Books that are just as inspirational. Would a verse from the Koran or the Torah be taken as lightly?


Certainly and I believe a similarly innocuous verse from either of those books should be taken as lightly. I say should instead of would because I don't believe this incident is being taken lightly. Quite the opposite it has been blown way out of proportion when it is a non issue.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 8):

Would the reaction from Christians be "hey it's an inspirational message" if it had been Sura 2:193 from the Qur'an?

I dunno what does that particular passage say? I'm sure I could find many innocuous inspirational quotes from the Koran that wouldn't bother me at all as a Christian.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
It's illegal.



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 8):
Seems like the company is idiotic for doing it in the first place, seeing it broke the law.

How so? How is it illegal for a private company to manufacture products that have a nod to religion? Is it illegal for Alaska to have the prayer cards on their meal trays?

It may be off putting but it is not illegal.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 8):
You know that whole separation of church and state thing and all,

Um it's a private company not a function of the state they can do whatever they want. I could open up Allie's Emporium of Biblical Kitchen Appliances if I wanted who knows if I'd ever get any customers or be able to attract a government contract with such a product but I would be perfectly free to try. Now the Military is a function of the state any obligation to keep church and state separate is theirs not the gun sight companies. The military has the option of asking the company to remove references. The military can also choose not purchase from this contractor if they object and the manufacturer refuses to remove it. BTW when asked the company agreed to voluntarily remove the sayings. This is really a complete non-issue.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
The company or its managers have personal views that they wanted reflected in their products. The Yahoo article says the founder of the company began the practice. Their attitude on the issue is plainly dumb:

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

I don't really see how that attitude is dumb? Lots of business owners subtly design in nods to personal views and passions. People have the option not to buy those products if they a) notice it and b) are offended by it.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):

No, the company is idiotic for printing religious stuff. They have no business bringing religion into any of their products.

Private company they can do what they want. If you don't like it don't buy from them.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Then why preach another faith when it wasn't wanted?

Um hardly preaching another faith considering the references were so small that....

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 24):
I"ve been dealing with Trijicon for years and never noticed it until this story brought it up and even then it was hard to see.

and....

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 22):
I wonder how many military members actually noticed it? I hadn't even noticed it until someone pointed it out 3 days ago. Its stamped in very small letters at the base of the optic right above the clamp that holds the optic to the mounting rail of the weapon.

The typical non-Christian even if they did happen to notice it is not going to get the reference it's going to look like a serial number or something to them. Heck most Christians aren't going to get the reference in that context. Worlds most subtle and ineffective attempt to convert.
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fridgmus
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:25 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
An odd choice for a weapon, don't you think?

Hi Doc, actually it's not the weapon, but the sight that is mounted on the weapon. It enables the shooter to see their target better in daylight and in low-light conditions. I've used their sights for years, in the Army and in civilian competitions and are a favorite of mine.

And believe it or not, I've never noticed the inscriptions, not that I would have known what they were, being an Atheist all my life!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Have any of them complained about this?

Hey Fly, I've never heard of anybody complaining about it. But then again, most people probably don't even notice the references or know what they mean!

I also read on Military.com that the Australian and New Zealand Armies want them off their sights as well.

I really don't see the need for some people to throw a  hissyfit  over it!
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Springbok747
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:35 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 26):
Private company they can do what they want. If you don't like it don't buy from them.

But they are stupid to put religious references on something that is totally irrelevant to religion. Yes they were hardly noticeable and yes the casual observer wouldn't know what they were, but still it doesn't make it right.
And have you seen their statement on their website? It says " dedicated to promoting Trijicon product sales ... and related services" no mention of any religious/Bible verses.
Also..this is not helping the US and its allies in Afghanistan, Iraq etc where the enemy they are fighting thinks this is a war on Islam..and putting this reference to Christianity and Jesus (esp. now that its all over the news) only exacerbates the situation.
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:20 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):
I am sure that there are many other passages from other Holy Books that are just as inspirational. Would a verse from the Koran or the Torah be taken as lightly?

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer to this one...

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 9):
..and people still wonder why many Muslims think the current wars are in fact wars against their religion, by Christians. With shit like this, no wonder...

Exactly! Absolutely idiotic move which only inflames sensibilities.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
No, the company is idiotic for printing religious stuff.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):

Excellent post.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):
Never said they were, but that IS how they will be used by extremists to try and convince moderates that this is a war against Islam, not just against the radicals.

Exactly. Why these verses were originally used is immaterial. The fact that they are there will be used by extremists to add credence to the claim that the US is fighting a war against Islam.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 23):
A Crusade Against Jihad. Can live with that.

That's the spirit.  Yeah sure
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hercppmx
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:01 am



Quoting MoltenRock (Thread starter):
Around 1/3 of a million rifle sights have been made for this military



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 26):
BTW when asked the company agreed to voluntarily remove the sayings. This is really a complete non-issue.

With how many are already in service I doubt that it will be removed from current ACOG's (RCO to military members). I see the quote being removed from future ACOG's being manufactured. With the cost of these optics it would not make sense to replace them all. I believe they cost to the military is a little north of $980 USD a pop.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 27):
I've used their sights for years, in the Army and in civilian competitions and are a favorite of mine.

I'm also a fan, it's nice to not have to change wind, and elev. but to simply offset aim, and the ACOG enables quicker and more accurate engagements.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
No, the company is idiotic for printing religious stuff. They have no business bringing religion into any of their products.

That whole first amendment thing sort of does give them the right.
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johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:11 am

30 seconds with a Dremel tool and you're done.
 
iairallie
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:45 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 28):
But they are stupid to put religious references on something that is totally irrelevant to religion.

They are hardly the first company do do so. In and out burger has scripture references on their packaging, Alaska has prayer cards. Are they stupid too>

and there are companies that reference non-religious but irrelevant to their products things on their packaging. I read an article in my sorority magazine about a company that incorporates one of our fraternal symbols subtly in its branding. Is that stupid

Some filmakers put little inside jokes and references in their movies. It is irrelevant to the movie and probably costs a little something to include. Does that make them stupid.

Big whoop. Doesn't seem to hurt any of those businesses. In some cases may help build loyalty in the segment that does recognize the subtle reference. Everyone else is going to overlook it completely. So I don't see how it is stupid.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 28):
Yes they were hardly noticeable and yes the casual observer wouldn't know what they were, but still it doesn't make it right.

Doesn't make it wrong either.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 31):

That whole first amendment thing sort of does give them the right.

Wait a second I thought the constitution only protects speech you agree with?
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
Springbok747
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:24 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
In and out burger has scripture references on their packaging, Alaska has prayer cards. Are they stupid too>

I wasn't aware of that. Yes. Putting religious stuff on something like burger packaging is stupid.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
Some filmakers put little inside jokes and references in their movies. It is irrelevant to the movie and probably costs a little something to include. Does that make them stupid.

Inside jokes etc are jokes. Religious stuff is more controversial..it can be seen as the company imposing their religious stance on the consumer..who may be of a different religion or may even be an atheist. It is very inappropriate to impose your religion on someone else like that. With context to the topic here, these products are used by the military and right now they are waging a war against an enemy who thinks the "west", i.e. Christians are out on a mission to wipe out Islam. And putting religious text (especially references to the Bible and Jesus) on products intended to kill these Islamic extremists isn't helping one bit. So yes..the company involved in this case is stupid. There was absolutely NO reason to put religious text on their products, however innocent that may seem.
אני תומך בישראל
 
johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:48 am

The problem wasn't that the company put text on their products, the problem was the government didn't ask them to remove it when they let the contract.
Like I said earlier, I've been around ACOG scopes for years and there's over 300,000 in service for many years and someone just noticed it? That shows you how unobtrusive it is.
PS I hope a bunch of contracts get cancelled so that my order gets delivered quicker than the 10-12 week quoted time.  Smile
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:43 am



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 27):

Hi Doc, actually it's not the weapon, but the sight that is mounted on the weapon.

Sure, sure. Semantics. Guns don't kill people, bullets do.  Wink

It's a weapon component that promises the light of life... I find that ironic.

If In-N-Out Burger wants to put bible verses on their cups, that's their right. Not so for a government contractor.
-Doc Lightning-

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iairallie
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:55 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):

If In-N-Out Burger wants to put bible verses on their cups, that's their right. Not so for a government contractor.

This is a private company just like In-n-out so I'm not sure what the distinction is. Why one private company has that right while another does not. No one is forcing the government to buy from that supplier.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:04 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 35):
PS I hope a bunch of contracts get cancelled so that my order gets delivered quicker than the 10-12 week quoted time. Smile

What did you buy?  eyebrow 
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johnboy
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:27 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
In and out burger has scripture references on their packaging, Alaska has prayer cards. Are they stupid too>

Which is why I don't give my money to these two businesses.
 
johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:19 pm



Quoting Johnboy (Reply 38):
Which is why I don't give my money to these two businesses

Alaska is a business?

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 37):
What did you buy?

A TA01- the original 4x32 non fiber optic ACOG. They have a special purchase plan for people in the firearms business.
 
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OA412
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:30 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 39):
Alaska is a business?

Alaska Airlines. They distribute prayer cards with their meals.
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johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:09 pm



Quoting OA412 (Reply 40):
Alaska Airlines. They distribute prayer cards with their meals

Their food is that bad?  Smile
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:16 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 36):

This is a private company just like In-n-out so I'm not sure what the distinction is. Why one private company has that right while another does not. No one is forcing the government to buy from that supplier.

It is different. The government should not be sponsoring an institution of religion. The Bible represents one (maybe two) institutions of religion. Oh, and by law, I believe the government is required ("forced") to buy from the lowest bidder.

Private citizens can do what they like.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:30 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
Oh, and by law, I believe the government is required ("forced") to buy from the lowest bidder.

The problem with that is that Trijicon doesn't really have any competition. They were the innovators in tritium sights. Elcan in Canada makes a similar sight but it's much bulkier and only used on SAW's.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:02 pm

It occurs to me that Trijicon is kind of gutless in this whole issue.

First of all, someone with a religious bent in their 250-employee family-run company gets the idea of putting Bible references onto weapon sighting equipment, but the references are not obvious,apparently disguised as alphanumeric part numbers or lot numbers (JN8:12 , 2COR4:6) and 300,000 units are produced before anyone catches on.

Then secondly, when there is a stink about it, Trijicon offer to supply kits to remove the offending numbers. Why wouldn't they refuse to remove the numbers and stand behind their original principles? My guess is that they don't want to jeopardise a lucrative business and religion can take a back seat if necessary.

I wonder how many users actually ciphered out what those alphanumeric characters referred to?

For a somewhat religious illiterate such as myself, I think I'd have to see 'Gott Mit Uns" or some such obvious slogan, imprinted on my equipment, in order to take any comfort from it.
 
evomutant
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:38 pm

Who cares? A meaningless few letters and numbers pointing to meaningless pieces of guff in some book.

Ho hum.
 
mt99
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RE: Bible Rifles

Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:55 pm



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 44):
Little bible verse references on scopes, woo hoo, that will offend them.

Would you be offended if there were Koran verses instead?
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hercppmx
Posts: 157
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RE: Bible Rifles

Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:04 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 46):
Would you be offended if there were Koran verses instead?

As Long as the sight functions as designed with I need it to, I really don't mind what is written on it, bible, koran, or any other religious book.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
Flighty
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RE: Bible Rifles

Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:35 am

This has always been a Judeo-Christian crusade. It was started in that spirit.

This is the kind of thing that hardens our enemy against us. Therefore, the company Trijicon is a harm to the United States and is actually losing, not winning, the battle for us.

In my opinion this is treasonous. Our country should never stoop this low. The gunsights should be remanufactured at once, on an emergency basis, and we should formally apologize to the world for this truly sick joke.
 
johns624
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RE: Bible Rifles

Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:46 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Therefore, the company Trijicon is a harm to the United States and is actually losing, not winning, the battle for us.

In my opinion this is treasonous. Our country should never stoop this low. The gunsights should be remanufactured at once, on an emergency basis, and we should formally apologize to the world for this truly sick joke.

Wrong. Do you know what treason is? It's the government's fault for not requesting it in the first place. As far as remanufacturing them, not needed, 30 seconds with a Dremel tool will take care of it.

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