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Aaron747
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China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:18 pm

Oh boy, time to play the rhetoric game again. New administration, same old shtick. Let me guess, this is more economic stimulus from Obama on behalf of a congressperson or two from wherever Patriot missiles are manufactured?  

The White House Friday notified Congress of its intent to sell a $6.4 billion weapons package to Taiwan, including Patriot missiles, mine-hunting ships, and Black Hawk helicopters. The sale did not include new fighter planes, which the island nation has requested, though it did include communications equipment for its current fleet.

A senior U.S. administration official on a call with reporters said that the sale “contributes to stability in the region.” ...

Chinese Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei deemed the sale "crude interference in China's domestic affairs” and said it would have “a seriously negative impact on many important areas of exchanges and cooperation"


http://www.politico.com/politico44/p...b-55b6-4c29-993f-1577378b021b.html

China is already claiming that they will immediately suspend all joint military exercises and exchanges with the US. Nice one!
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windy95
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:46 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
China is already claiming that they will immediately suspend all joint military exercises and exchanges with the US. Nice one!



This also surprised me. I am all for Taiwan's independence if that is what they wish. But at the same time we really need to do more to get rid of the animosity and get more trust with the Chinese. We do not need any more Cold wars. If the people of Taiwan claim independence then the world should recognize that and should protect them from the Chinese if the they threaten them. But we should really be working toward friendly relations between the US, Taiwan, China and Japan.
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:56 pm

Well I assume that the riposte will be to comment on Chinese arms sales to Iran.

I do hope this thread recovers from its cynical start. There was a time when the Taiwanese were friendly Guess that time must have passed.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:17 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
There was a time when the Taiwanese were friendly Guess that time must have passed.

I do not understand, is Taiwan not friendly now? Who are they not friendly with?

BTW, this is not just the Patriot batteries Tiawan wants to buy, but is also the Kidd class DDs that were delivered back in 2005 included in this amount. I guess Taiwan needs to make a payment on those 4 warships now?
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:33 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
There was a time when the Taiwanese were friendly Guess that time must have passed.

I do not understand, is Taiwan not friendly now? Who are they not friendly with?

I was rather hoping they were friendly, but reply one seemed not to think so????

I think Tiawan is not getting all it wants, esp in terms of new fighters, might have to see how Rafales and Typhoons go, just the place for Typhoons you would think!!! Maybe that is why they chose the name, foresight.

It seems that China is now threatening unpleasant things to all US firms associated with the sales. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8488765.stm
China has announced a series of moves against the US in retaliation for a proposed weapons sale to Taiwan worth $6.4bn (£4bn).

Beijing said it would suspend military exchanges with the US, impose sanctions on companies selling arms, and review co-operation on major issues.

....
"Considering the severe harm and odious effect of US arms sales to Taiwan, the Chinese side has decided to suspend planned mutual military visits."

"We strongly demand that the US respect the Chinese side's interests", it added, calling for the sale to be stopped.


The wording would be even more funny if some White House press statements over the past few years had not come to sound more and more like statements from China or even a few start to sound as if lessons are being taken from N Korea. Odious effects - tut tut.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:57 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
I think Tiawan is not getting all it wants, esp in terms of new fighters, might have to see how Rafales and Typhoons go, just the place for Typhoons you would think!!! Maybe that is why they chose the name, foresight.

Typhoons would be excellent for Taiwan, even better than the F-16s they have right now.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
It seems that China is now threatening unpleasant things to all US firms associated with the sales. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

Wouldn't China need to add EADS to the list if Taiwan bought some Typhoons? What would happen to the A-32X production in China if that happened?
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:13 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
It seems that China is now threatening unpleasant things to all US firms associated with the sales. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

Wouldn't China need to add EADS to the list if Taiwan bought some Typhoons? What would happen to the A-32X production in China if that happened?

About the same as will happen to 787 sales now you might suppose. The reference to Typhoons was more because Taiwan and the Philippines are essentially the home of the atmospheric typhoons, but of course there is a Eurofighter version too. It is Eurofighter GMBH BTW not exactly EADS that make the Typhoon.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:02 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
There was a time when the Taiwanese were friendly Guess that time must have passed.

Taiwan is certainly friendly and as far as the US is concerned, the stipulations of the Taiwan Relations Act remain in effect and have not been amended. Insofar as that's the case, it is not our responsibility to perpetually provide them arms. Arms sales are as much a form of foreign aid as anything else, and my cynicism extends to any realpolitik actions by Washington that give excessive assistance to friendly nations that are more than capable of developing their own arms and technology.

Taiwan doesn't actually need squadrons full of US or European aircraft - US strategic bombers and various other implements are just a stone's throw away on Okinawa, where they've been since before the TRA was enacted.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Well I assume that the riposte will be to comment on Chinese arms sales to Iran.

The larger issue is their weight on the UNSC.
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futurepilot16
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:16 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
China is already claiming that they will immediately suspend all joint military exercises and exchanges with the US. Nice one!

Is there ever a time when China isn't bitching about something? They're kinda like kids who get upset when people that they consider to be their friends, hang out with people they don't like. Really childish.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
actions by Washington that give excessive assistance to friendly nations that are more than capable of developing their own arms and technology.

Maybe it was a show of friendly gesture
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:42 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8):
Is there ever a time when China isn't bitching about something? They're kinda like kids who get upset when people that they consider to be their friends, hang out with people they don't like.

We need to get used to dealing with it. Even conservative projections have their GDP passing ours within two decades. Personally I'm for better relations with them within reason - everyone makes more money that way.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8):

Maybe it was a show of friendly gesture

The Taiwan Relations Act predates you by a fair bit, but it was friendly gesture enough.
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:54 pm

Whats stops China from invading Taiwan.They could take over in days.
What would be the consequences apart from sanctions.

On the other hand......will taiwan declare Independence......what will be the worlds reaction.

regds
MEL.
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RussianJet
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:10 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Whats stops China from invading Taiwan.They could take over in days.

Possibly the prospect of world war?
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11Bravo
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:57 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Whats stops China from invading Taiwan.

The United States Navy,.... and others. China would be smart to recognise Taiwan's independence and work from there. It would give the PRC the moral high-ground regarding security issues. As it stands now they continue with this idea that Formosa is actually part of the PRC occupied buy unruly insurgents. That view may well have been true 60 years ago, but, as the saying goes, that was then and this is now. Let it go; too much water under the bridge, move along.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:28 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 12):

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Whats stops China from invading Taiwan.

The United States Navy,.... and others. China would be smart to recognise Taiwan's independence and work from there. It would give the PRC the moral high-ground regarding security issues. As it stands now they continue with this idea that Formosa is actually part of the PRC occupied buy unruly insurgents. That view may well have been true 60 years ago, but, as the saying goes, that was then and this is now. Let it go; too much water under the bridge, move along.

But this wom´t work as long as the Chinese government sees Taiwan and some groups of uninhabited islands in the South China Sea as justification for huge territorial claims at the expense of it´s neighbours.
Don´t forget that once you controll some islands, your territotial waters and economical exclusion zone expand tremendously.
Based on the occupation of some uninhabited small islands (Spratley Islands, Paracel Islands), China cpractically claims the whole South China Sea as far south as Borneo and the southern Philippines as territorial waters.

Jan
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LAXintl
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:39 pm

Let the Chinese throw their weight around a bit if it makes them feel better.

The US has the right, and also has a moral and legal responsibility to support Taiwan. The ROC has a right to modernize and keep its defences up to date. Matter of fact I am more surprised that the timid nature of this sale actually, with no real offensive arms included which were requested by the ROC.
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:54 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
A senior U.S. administration official on a call with reporters said that the sale “contributes to stability in the region.” ...

I hope this "official" is found and fired.

I didn't think Obama had it in him to stand up to China's bullying. I am pleasantly surprised. Good job, Obama.
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MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:32 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Possibly the prospect of world war?

The thing that most Americans and other western nations don't get is China is very patient. Asian companies too are not managed with a quarterly earnings mentality that whipsaw American businesses back and forth. Asian culture also have very long memories aka grudges. China waited for 99 years to get Hong Kong back under its control. China is a 4,000 year old country, so the history is deep between them and the 400+ year old Taiwan.

The west and America haven't exactly stood firm with Taiwan over the years. Taiwan also knows it has been forsaken by the west before so really can't count on its help during a true, military attack or invasion. Ask Average Joe American anything about Taiwan and they'd be hard pressed to name one single thing, and if they could would be some sound byte or talking point they heard somewhere.

Taiwan's more formalized ties with China are inevitable.
 
RussianJet
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:58 am



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 16):
China waited for 99 years to get Hong Kong back under its control.

They would do - that was what the length of the lease dictated.  confused 

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 16):
Ask Average Joe American anything about Taiwan and they'd be hard pressed to name one single thing,

And since when did the 'Average Joe American' view on foreign affairs mean a great deal in such matters? A lot of Americans don't know much about a hell of a lot of countries (obviously not all Americans, before anyone feels personally insulted.....).
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MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:27 am



Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 18):
Is there ever a time when USA isn't bitching about something? They're kinda like kids who get upset when people that they consider to be their friends, hang out with people they don't like. Really childish.

Sadly, the vast majority of those that always propose interfering in other's business here in the US, actually believe the USA acts altruistically and never in her own self interest to the detriment of others. I kid you not. That's how naive they are. And they condemn other countries for needing to follow their own self interest as if its a personal affront to the USA. And as I said before, they have no clue as to history or what the US may or may not have done. But they are cocksure certain of one thing, "we are the good guys with pure and unselfish interests just trying to help __________________", the other country is evil, spiteful, and terrorists. Meanwhile, the defense contractors leap for joy.

Pathetic.
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:53 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Based on the occupation of some uninhabited small islands (Spratley Islands, Paracel Islands), China practically claims the whole South China Sea as far south as Borneo and the southern Philippines as territorial waters.

If they had an orange flag Jan I would wave it.   But overall you are right, just the word practically does not quite cover it!! Some of their maps include claims to Natuna Is which are pretty firmly part of Indonesia and are very inhabited. Also unlike most of the other island groups that have POTENTIAL for oil and gas discoveries, they have a number of producing oilfields and the giant, but CO2 rich Natuna gas field.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 16):
Ask Average Joe American anything about Taiwan and they'd be hard pressed to name one single thing,

And since when did the 'Average Joe American' view on foreign affairs mean a great deal in such matters?

US-Taiwan relations are probably even more problematical on a.net as the current form was more or less set under the administration of (dare I type the word???) Carter. Oh dear. I mean without that agreement Deng might not have set up those zones and the US might not have imported all those cheap goods from mainland China - somewhere else instead presumably including Taiwan which seems to be where most laptops still come from??
 
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:45 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):

Possibly the prospect of world war?

Name the opposing sides....
regds
MEL.
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ozglobal
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:00 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 1):
This also surprised me. I am all for Taiwan's independence if that is what they wish. But at the same time we really need to do more to get rid of the animosity and get more trust with the Chinese.

We should not be naive about our dealings with the Chinese government. "Trust" is not a word I would use in relation to them, now nor in the foreseeable future. In its present form, the Chinese government is only about expediency, appearances, a certain definition of 'national interest' and above all retaining their domestic power base. The Australian mining industry in the middle of recent negotiations found that if you negotiate too aggressively, you immediately are jailed as industrial spies!! Also, there is overwhelming evidence that they launched a highly sophisticated hack into around 200 top western technology companies during the so called compromise of Chinese dissident's Google mail accounts. This latter was a smoke screen for the massive trade secrets they stole in that simultaneous attack, about which the victim companies and the EU and US don't want to speak. This was co-ordinated by the Chinese army, and leveraged compromised servers in Taiwan (i wonder why?).We all need to kick the Chinese government's collective ass from time to time, or they will continue to think that they can do anything unchallenged. They do not have 'allies', only useful contacts...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:11 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Based on the occupation of some uninhabited small islands (Spratley Islands, Paracel Islands), China practically claims the whole South China Sea as far south as Borneo and the southern Philippines as territorial waters.

If they had an orange flag Jan I would wave it. But overall you are right, just the word practically does not quite cover it!! Some of their maps include claims to Natuna Is which are pretty firmly part of Indonesia and are very inhabited. Also unlike most of the other island groups that have POTENTIAL for oil and gas discoveries, they have a number of producing oilfields and the giant, but CO2 rich Natuna gas field.

Obviously, having family in the Philippines (my fiancee´s, though she belongs to the Chinese ethnic minority in the Philippines, but considers herself Filipina), I´m biased and I´d like to see this country blossom and not being bullied by a hegemonial superpower up north.
But back to the topic:
Remember the argument between Denmark and Canada over a small uninhabited island in the arctic sea last year (Hans Island)?
It was not about a few acres of rock, but whoever has souvereignity over this island also controls a huge slice of the Arctic sea with all the natural resources below it. Similarly the Russians are currently trying to prove that the Lomossov Ridge under the Arctic Ocean is a geological continouity of Siberia, giving them control over most of the Arctic Ocean.

Unfortunately China´s military is much larger than the militaries of Vietnam, Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia or Brunei, and they are fast in building up a blue water navy to control the sea.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:31 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 21):
They do not have 'allies', only useful contacts...

Not that France, the US, Germany, UK, or any other country is really much different at all.

Ask the average American on the right what their thoughts of France are, you'll find they think France, Iran, North Korea, Somalia aren't much different since the French are "pussies" and limp wristed, cowards. Of course they have no clue that France has been America's staunchest ally collectively since the founding of America.

In the 19th century France pretty much screwed China repeatedly. France used China for their own purposes, with things like the Treaty of Whampoa, the Summer Palace ransacking, and taking the port of Shanghai for their own use.

France is no better, and no worse than any other western power. Each country has their own needs and interests. Just because on a few issues one of our staunchest allies cannot help or cooperate with us, does not make them an enemy. In the US people roundly condemn China for dealing with Iran (that darned axis of evil), yet if anyone would actually do any reading on the subject they would understand why China not only does deal with Iran, but must deal with Iran as they do, and if any of us were in China's leadership role would continue to do so. If the west could get over its obsession with good or evil, happy or unhappy, and friend or foe mindset it might just help everyone get along.

To everyone, why do you think your country is right/wrong in supporting their respective ally China/Taiwan? I'm curious.
 
ozglobal
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:53 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 23):
Ask the average American on the right what their thoughts of France are, you'll find they think France, Iran, North Korea, Somalia aren't much different since the French are "pussies" and limp wristed, cowards. Of course they have no clue that France has been America's staunchest ally collectively since the founding of America.

"The average American on the right" is not the most authorative source of information on geopolotics, so I'm unlikely to do so.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 23):
In the 19th century France pretty much screwed China repeatedly.

As did a few others, but why do you make this about France whom I never mentioned? I happen to fly that flag as I live here, but am Australian as the call sign suggests. My point was not to boost any nation, but to respond to those who say we should make more effort to APPEASE China. Whoever has been a bully in the past, it is China who is tending more and more in that direction currently. I have no special concern for Taiwan, but for the principles in play.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 23):
If the west could get over its obsession with good or evil, happy or unhappy, and friend or foe mindset it might just help everyone get along.

The greatest racism, ethnic and religious bigotry I've experienced so far is BETWEEN Asian nations. I'm not sure we have a great deal to learn from their approach to politics. However, I agree with your general point.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:54 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
As did a few others, but why do you make this about France whom I never mentioned?

Of course they did. My point since your flag says France tells me you are either from there or live there. In either case you would have read the daily papers, new sources, and heard the average French person's perspective on the topic. I was using a common reference for you to show that every country does it.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
The greatest racism, ethnic and religious bigotry I've experienced so far is BETWEEN Asian nations.

I'd agree with you fully! I've said it 1/2 dozen times in this forum on recent threads that the cultures and countries of Asia go back for hundreds, and even thousands of years. Asian cultures by in large are very patient, and they hold grudges forever. But they have had wars back and forth for over 1,000 years between the various countries, which is why distrust still remains. Japan and China alone went back and forth bulldozing each other and any their way (like Korea) repeatedly.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
APPEASE China. Whoever has been a bully in the past, it is China who is tending more and more in that direction currently. I have no special concern for Taiwan, but for the principles in play.

But it was the English, French, and others who exploited and bulldozed over China as they economically invaded China. It was this callous disregard that started the Boxer Rebellion and the expulsion of foreign powers from China's land in the early 20th century.

Whenever you have a growing power, and the dynamics between countries ebb and flow, what seems like "appeasement" to one side is to the other side looked at as, "getting our rightful place". It depends on your perspective.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
they are fast in building up a blue water navy to control the sea.

They are protecting their interests. No different than the USA or other naval powers.


All of this said, each nation that deals with China or any other existing or growing power needs to make sure not to cede their future to it. I see many countries in the west ceding their economic engines to China because (for now) it's "cheap".

I refuse to buy products made in countries I disagree with. Too often I see people complain about it, but not do anything about it. We all have the power individually to change (however small) the equation.
 
RussianJet
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:55 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Name the opposing sides....
regds
MEL.

Come on MEL......it's not tricky to imagine - China vs USA and whoever may get dragged in on either side - more than enough potential for a wider conflict.
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baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
The greatest racism, ethnic and religious bigotry I've experienced so far is BETWEEN Asian nations. I'm not sure we have a great deal to learn from their approach to politics. However, I agree with your general point.

Just one reservation the GREATEST is within some Asian nations, THEN we get to between them.  

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 25):
I refuse to buy products made in countries I disagree with. Too often I see people complain about it, but not do anything about it. We all have the power individually to change (however small) the equation.

Well I try to do that but with clothes, there is this problem, walking around in Aus stark naked is not allowed (as well as being unattractive and, in winter, a bit cold). The problem is a bit easier if I am in Indonesia cos the local tailor will make a shirt and trousers, but the "underwear problem" remains

[Edited 2010-01-31 17:34:27]
 
csavel
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:30 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Whats stops China from invading Taiwan.They could take over in days.
What would be the consequences apart from sanctions.

On the other hand......will taiwan declare Independence......what will be the worlds reaction.

I eouldn't be too sure of China's taking Taiwan over in days. Taiwan is a very sophisticated island, and islands, even nowadays are easier to defend. Plus China's growing economy would tank, after all the jingoism. As much of a manufacturing colossus China is now, all that could be quite quickly and easily moved to say, Vietnam. China's economy, while large and growing, and likely to be the biggest in a decade, is now in a period where a setback could easily lead to instability. As the US learned and Britain before them, it isn't so easy to invade and take over a country, even when you're the biggest kid on the block.

Frankly, I think this is mostly for domestic Chinese consumption, I guarantee you both sides have factored this in, and that for all the rhetoric, both sides have pretty much decided, like two mafia families at a sit-down, what the outcome will likely be.

Taiwan won't declare independence. That would be suicide. Part of the gentleman's agreement is that China doesn't invade Taiwan and Taiwan doesn't do anything foolish. Eventually that might change as China becomes more powerful, and the US becomes less powerful, but as the Asian economies become more integrated, a war is more costly.

Plus, Taiwan has had democracy (complete with fistfights in parliament) and rule of law for twenty years now. You think they are just going to tolerate some corrupt Communist party flunky calling the shots? Don't you think the Taiwanese experience of freedom will be infectious to people on the mainland?
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
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allrite
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:32 am

It's interesting to read the history of Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang. They aren't part of some 2000 year old homeland of China, but were subject to invasions and repulsions of the Han Chinese over chunks of their history, and by other powers or had self-rule at other times. The Chinese policy seems to be that if the Han Chinese ever set foot in a land and ruled for no matter how brief a time, then that land should belong to them. By that argument much of China should be part of Mongolia or Tibet, considering how both ruled large chunks of modern China.

It's like saying that Vietnam should still belong to the French, USA to the British, the Netherlands to Spain because there was a period of rule by those nations.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 25):
I refuse to buy products made in countries I disagree with. Too often I see people complain about it, but not do anything about it.

Lucky for the Chinese, that is an option for them in most cases.  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
The problem is a bit easier if I am in Indonesia cos the local tailor will make a shirt and trousers, but the "underwear problem" remains

Can't claim to be Scottish?  
I like artificial banana essence!
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:41 am



Quoting Csavel (Reply 28):
Part of the gentleman's agreement is that China doesn't invade Taiwan and Taiwan doesn't do anything foolish.

I agree with you but looking at from outside, we probably agree that "gentleman's agreement" is a bit of a misnomer even if it is the one generally used. Then again, in the age of gentlemen (Victorian era) some gentlemen used to get up to very strange games.

Quoting Allrite (Reply 29):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
The problem is a bit easier if I am in Indonesia cos the local tailor will make a shirt and trousers, but the "underwear problem" remains

Can't claim to be Scottish?

I could, I believe our family is one of the many septs of the Stuarts, but the wife would throw a fit. Then again she does like the sarong, and I could suggest it is just a short sarong.  angel 
 
TheCol
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:08 am



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 21):
We should not be naive about our dealings with the Chinese government. "Trust" is not a word I would use in relation to them, now nor in the foreseeable future. In its present form, the Chinese government is only about expediency, appearances, a certain definition of 'national interest' and above all retaining their domestic power base.

 checkmark 

I'd sooner trust Russia over China. Mind you, they usually work as a team.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
The greatest racism, ethnic and religious bigotry I've experienced so far is BETWEEN Asian nations

 checkmark 
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Flighty
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:44 am



Quoting Csavel (Reply 28):
Plus, Taiwan has had democracy (complete with fistfights in parliament) and rule of law for twenty years now. You think they are just going to tolerate some corrupt Communist party flunky calling the shots? Don't you think the Taiwanese experience of freedom will be infectious to people on the mainland?

Taiwan will call their own shots. And in a real disagreement, without any American trade, China would be struggling and would probably implode. Hence, China could probably not survive a Taiwan encounter. The result would be regime change in the PRC.

Seeing that Obama is in no way a sycophant of China's, China really does not have a card to play. If they want to decrease trade, fine; it only hurts them. Many observers see Obama raising the Chinese exchange rate by fiat; this would be via a stated goal currency exchange ratio, and a flexible tariff to ensure it comes into effective use by American importers.

The WTO needs to be slightly reformed to build in "dollar hoarding" for lack of a better term. In Clinton's days China pulled the wool over his eyes and got Most Favored Nation status as well as some very unfortunate Taiwan communiques. Now it's clear that America is wising up to the Chinese grand strategy. And the US still has great flexibility in its conduct. After all, it is still the senior partner in these import/export transactions, and militarily as well.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:47 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 26):

Come on MEL......it's not tricky to imagine - China vs USA and whoever may get dragged in on either side - more than enough potential for a wider conflict.

Think the USA will want a military encounter with China?
regds
MEL...
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
JJJ
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:02 am



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 12):
China would be smart to recognise Taiwan's independence and work from there.

The thing is neither side wants independence. It's a little bit more complicated than that.

There was a civil war in China, the communists ended up controlling the mainland, and the kuomintang controlled Taiwan. So both sides see themselves as the sole legitimate government of China (PRC and ROC).

There was a brief drive for independence in Taiwan, but far from a majority. Most Taiwanese support keeping the statu quo (keep Taiwan separate and sovereign while still claiming sovereignity over all of China).
 
RussianJet
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:29 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 33):
Think the USA will want a military encounter with China?

No, I don't. But that's not to say it could never happen.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:57 am



Quoting JJJ (Reply 34):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 12):
China would be smart to recognise Taiwan's independence and work from there.

The thing is neither side wants independence. It's a little bit more complicated than that.

There was a civil war in China, the communists ended up controlling the mainland, and the kuomintang controlled Taiwan. So both sides see themselves as the sole legitimate government of China (PRC and ROC).

There was a brief drive for independence in Taiwan, but far from a majority. Most Taiwanese support keeping the statu quo (keep Taiwan separate and sovereign while still claiming sovereignity over all of China).

Interestingly there are groups in Taiwan, which voice the same claims for territory in the South and East China Seas as the PRC government in Beijing, the only diference is that they should be ruled by Taiwan.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Mudboy
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:48 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 33):
Think the USA will want a military encounter with China?

Do you seriously think China wants a war with the USA?

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 18):
Is there ever a time when USA isn't bitching about something? They're kinda like kids who get upset when people that they consider to be their friends, hang out with people they don't like. Really childish.

Sadly, the vast majority of those that always propose interfering in other's business here in the US, actually believe the USA acts altruistically and never in her own self interest to the detriment of others. I kid you not. That's how naive they are. And they condemn other countries for needing to follow their own self interest as if its a personal affront to the USA. And as I said before, they have no clue as to history or what the US may or may not have done. But they are cocksure certain of one thing, "we are the good guys with pure and unselfish interests just trying to help __________________", the other country is evil, spiteful, and terrorists. Meanwhile, the defense contractors leap for joy.

Pathetic.

That's right all us dumb Americans, still stuck in the "Cold War Mentality", when we were the good guys that kept the Big Bad USSR, from spreading like a virus throughout Europe and down through Asia. The same Americans that defeated the Nazis in WWII. And the same Americans that cannot find Europe on the map. It is funny how many countries we support and whenever anyone sticks their hand out, or gets invaded, who do they call? The arrogant, self-centered Americans, that will only join a war, unless if benefits them.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I speak 3 languages, working on my 4th( Hungarian), which is insane to learn, and I can find any country on the map, you ask to point out. Just because a large populace of less educated people get on TV, does not mean the majority, of the 300+ Million of Americans are a bunch of idiots, excluding Mississippi of course.  It always amazes me why Europeans get so offended, when Americans don't know everything about their country, that is smaller than a lot of our states. I would like to know how much the average European or Asian knows about Iowa? Or Nebraska? Which are larger than quite a few, European countries!

If Taiwan gets invaded, and they ask for our help, I hope we do the right thing!! I also hope that all these other countries that believe in freedom and independence, step in as well.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:16 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
The WTO needs to be slightly reformed to build in "dollar hoarding" for lack of a better term. In Clinton's days China pulled the wool over his eyes and got Most Favored Nation status as well as some very unfortunate Taiwan communiques. Now it's clear that America is wising up to the Chinese grand strategy. And the US still has great flexibility in its conduct. After all, it is still the senior partner in these import/export transactions, and militarily as well.

Sounds just like USA, Inc.'s public relations fluff pounded out on the airwaves daily. "We good, them bad"! Toss in a few grunts and we are good to go. It's a whole lot more complicated than that, and most certainly silly to view it blinded by self denial. Look on the bright side, now thanks to the Supreme Court's newest ruling, the Chinese government can buy up air time on TV in the states to get a few of their own politicians in the US House, Senate, and maybe even White House that are more "fair and balanced" to China's viewpoint. Ain't democracy grand?

China and the US for better or worse, are economically intertwined and becoming more so with every passing week. Americans don't realize what all is made in China, how much of the US's debt they hold and bought up during the Bushgasm Tax Cut, Double Budget Blowout Sale. With the economy DOA, Obama has continued it.

While US politically paid for pundits and politicians bombastically decrying a "corrupt Chinese govt", they should look in the mirror. The US govt hasn't done anything big, hard, or all that challenging in the last 40 years, as they've sat on their thumbs watching average American families wages stagnant and most recently fall. Now go talk to the average Chinese citizen in the coastal economic miracle zone. Not only that but the Chinese govt has been buying up assets all over the world, while the US govt sells everything not bolted down, the family jewels, and oil rights in Iraq all for what? Bragging rights on the internet about winning the war in Iraq? LOL  

In all seriousness, America has become hamstrung to do much about what China wants. A military war by either side against the other, is mutually assured suicide. Japan has become very concerned about America's newest mortgage holder, as have most other Asian nations. The wave of China reinvesting their $US holdings will be coming back to America in the form of Chinese manufacturing plants in the USA, and expanding their US footprint to employ Americans. By the end of 2010 China will have almost $3 trillion in foreign cash reserves.
 
ozglobal
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:30 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 38):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):

OK, I have some sympathy for your rant on the US and not sure what your ties to Singapore are, but remember you have chosen to live under a soft dictatorship there, who are not over invested in truth nor democracy. What your take on them on these counts (without taking the thread too far of track).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Mudboy
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:41 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 38):
Ain't democracy grand?

I must commend you for living in another country, and opining the great disgust you have, against your own. We need more people like you, to follow your lead 
I always say, if I hated something that much, I would be on the next flight out.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:00 pm



Quoting Mudboy (Reply 37):
If Taiwan gets invaded, and they ask for our help, I hope we do the right thing!! I also hope that all these other countries that believe in freedom and independence, step in as well.

The US won't because it can't. It didn't bother to do so the last time Taiwan's push for democracy was on the verge of success now did it? The US government doesn't give a rip about democracy in other countries if it threatens their economic desires. How many times has the US disregarded and/or helped the non-democratic status quo put down and kill democracy supporters? Shall we look at the US's bloody hands in central America & the middle east over the same time frame of the past 70 years?

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 37):
That's right all us dumb Americans, still stuck in the "Cold War Mentality", when we were the good guys that kept the Big Bad USSR, from spreading like a virus throughout Europe and down through Asia. The same Americans that defeated the Nazis in WWII. And the same Americans that cannot find Europe on the map. It is funny how many countries we support and whenever anyone sticks their hand out, or gets invaded, who do they call? The arrogant, self-centered Americans, that will only join a war, unless if benefits them.

Nice flag waving rhetoric. But that's all it is, much like the "WOT" using ground forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. WWII was good for business. The Marshall Plan was the best investment the US has made in a very long time. Don't be blinded by your nationalism. The USA didn't go to war for shits and grins to protect democracy. It went there for its own self-interest. Today America's military is there to enforce the economic and military status quo that America is the sole superpower, and is fearful of any country that can change the equation. Unfortunately, due to the folly in the sandbox Bush undertook post 9/11 and vaporizing $2.5 trillion for II WW (2 worthless wars) in the middle of nowhere that do not benefit Joe Average American, the 75 years of continual war will unravel the US' ability to deliver both guns and butter. America hasn't invested in keeping herself up in 30 years, and the infrastructure shows. Instead America's idiots called politicians are carping about "death panels" and "Obama's a communist".
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:14 pm



Quoting Mudboy (Reply 40):
I must commend you for living in another country, and opining the great disgust you have, against your own. We need more people like you, to follow your lead 
I always say, if I hated something that much, I would be on the next flight out.

LMAO! Yes, when someone points out the ugly truth they are called haters.  vomit  But it's not surprising as many whistleblowers have found out. Americans prefer not to have to face it or deal with it.  whistleblower 

No, I do not hate my home in America, but I do wish Americans and the American govt would wake up and stop fighting the wars from the 1940s as you can see is the first reflex almost every American has. "But.... but...... but....... we bailed their asses out in WWII", as if they themselves really had anything to do with it at all. Why they think because their great grandfather did some altruistic act it becomes hereditary proof of their own altruism is a bit confounding.

The funny thing is though, the USA sure wants and demands my income and other taxes still to be paid as an expat.
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:55 pm



Quoting Mudboy (Reply 37):
If Taiwan gets invaded, and they ask for our help, I hope we do the right thing!! I also hope that all these other countries that believe in freedom and independence, step in as well.

Only if you manage to work out who actually defeated the Germans in WWII, and for that matter possibly who was the cause of the Japanese surrender. Hint, it was not the USA.

Signed

Generalfeldmarschall F. Paulus
 
Mudboy
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:36 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 42):
The funny thing is though, the USA sure wants and demands my income and other taxes still to be paid as an expat.

You should not have to, if you are gone the 330 days required?

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 42):
No, I do not hate my home in America, but I do wish Americans and the American govt would wake up and stop fighting the wars from the 1940s as you can see is the first reflex almost every American has. "But.... but...... but....... we bailed their asses out in WWII", as if they themselves really had anything to do with it at all. Why they think because their great grandfather did some altruistic act it becomes hereditary proof of their own altruism is a bit confounding.

Well gee, if we cannot use that excuse, then why are we constantly blamed for something else our past relatives did?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
Only if you manage to work out who actually defeated the Germans in WWII, and for that matter possibly who was the cause of the Japanese surrender. Hint, it was not the USA.

Signed

Generalfeldmarschall F. Paulus

Not you Again?  banghead  You are ruining my dreams of going to Australia!! 

Ok, I will give your Russia on the Nazis, but I would say those 2 bombs we dropped on Japan, had more to do with them surrendering, than the little Russian invasion into Manchuria.
 
baroque
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:21 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
Ok, I will give your Russia on the Nazis, but I would say those 2 bombs we dropped on Japan, had more to do with them surrendering, than the little Russian invasion into Manchuria.

Re the Japanese, you are lucky because matters were so confused that we will never know what caused them to do the bleeding obvious. I tend to think it was losing a whole suite of armies in about 3 days to the Russians rather than the two atomic bombs. The reason I think that is that they understood what had happened in Manchuria, whereas they did not have a clue that two cities had just disappeared, let alone believe WHY they had vanished.

Actually if you count the way Wiki does they lost 9 armies in less than a week, and they lost the Kuriles which they thought were part of Japan. If the Soviet estimate of losses was near correct, it would have been a shock (Soviet estimate) 83,737 KIA 640,276 POWs.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria_%281945%29

Put yourself in the Japanese position. Losing nine armies and having them overrun by:
1,577,225 men,
26,137 artillery,
1,852 sup. artillery,
5,556 tanks and self-propelled artillery
5,368 aircraft

when you only had 5,000 artillery pieces would be a bit of a shock. And can you imagine Japanese tanks up against the 1945 Russian tank fleet? I am sure the Chinese too still remember that battle.
 
Flighty
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:26 am



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 38):
The wave of China reinvesting their $US holdings will be coming back to America in the form of Chinese manufacturing plants in the USA, and expanding their US footprint to employ Americans.

That's hard to imagine. China can always employ the Chinese worker first.

I agree China is doing pretty well. America by definition has been doing OK as well, as its total income has risen to a stratospheric height. America could be more careful about its relationship management. Basically, we still have the market that China desperately needs. China has productive capacity that is wonderful for us, but we could do without it. We could buy from the democratic world exclusively, if it came to that. Then, China would have precious little currency reserves coming in.

Clinton was nice to give China MFN. The matter stood because China had devised a way to hack the currency system to give unlimited payouts. Not doing this should have been a precondition of getting MFN. Instead, Clinton did not really think too much about it. I saw it at the time and thought, good job China, you caught Clinton sleeping. The official Chinese media was laser focused on that point for several years around that time. Now we know why.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:31 am



Quoting Mudboy (Reply 44):
Well gee, if we cannot use that excuse, then why are we constantly blamed for something else our past relatives did?

Because "you" (modern day Americans) refuse to learn from the past, ignore that America helped create the mess in the first place, and use rhetoric to win over the idiots to stupid ideas, you know like war with Iraq.

Using the whole Saddam is evil garbage to appeal to stupid Americans so Bush could masturbate over taking down the guy that tried to kill his daddy is tragic. Bush sealed America's fate to be a dying superpower sadly. Starting with Reagan no President did anything to prepare for the coming baby boomer retirement.

America's hands are now tied to ever smaller military budgets (thank god), and barely holding on from declaring bankruptcy. I'm looking at you Rhonda Reagan and Bushtard II. Clinton staunched the bleeding by running surpluses. Bush II will be looked upon as worse than Hoover, and the President that refused to see the decline of America as real and hastened it instead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/politics/02deficit.html?hp
 
Mudboy
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:44 am



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 47):
Because "you" (modern day Americans) refuse to learn from the past, ignore that America helped create the mess in the first place, and use rhetoric to win over the idiots to stupid ideas, you know like war with Iraq.

Using the whole Saddam is evil garbage to appeal to stupid Americans so Bush could masturbate over taking down the guy that tried to kill his daddy is tragic. Bush sealed America's fate to be a dying superpower sadly. Starting with Reagan no President did anything to prepare for the coming baby boomer retirement.

America's hands are now tied to ever smaller military budgets (thank god), and barely holding on from declaring bankruptcy. I'm looking at you Rhonda Reagan and Bushtard II. Clinton staunched the bleeding by running surpluses. Bush II will be looked upon as worse than Hoover, and the President that refused to see the decline of America as real and hastened it instead.

Gee, that sure did sound like some Liberal Democratic rhetoric to me? I would hate for some of those stupid Americans, as you put it, to think that that the majority of Americans feel the same as you do!

You sound as bad as some of my Republican friends, that feel all Dems are evil.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: China Rebukes US Over $6.4B Arms Sale To Taiwan

Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:53 am

Republicans like the draft dodging Rhonda and Georgie and all those that fellated them are responsible. Bush I, and Clinton both worked on keeping a strong republic.

So the choice is America's, but watching the sheep cry after the underwear bomber proved, nothing changes. It's been 40 years since any big idea or program has been accomplished. China has built an 820 mile, 230 MPH train with 32 new stations, and 200+ bridges in under 4 years. It builds a brand new airport every 3 months or less. The Chinese citizen saves between 30% and 40% of their paycheck.

I'm sorry I point out the unpleasant truth about reality, but it is the truth regardless which side you think is right, Rep or Dem.

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