ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:48 pm



Quote:
Flights transporting critically injured Haitians into the United States have temporarily been suspended because of logistical issues, including a lack of space, a White House spokesman said Saturday in response to reports of a dispute over who would pay for patients' care....

But the U.S. military said Saturday that the flights were stopped Wednesday because "some states are unwilling to allow entry for Haitian nationals for critical care," according to Navy Capt. Kevin Aandahl, a spokesman for the U.S. Transportation Command.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/am...01/30/haiti.us.airlifts/index.html

Haiti is on the doorstep of the nation who frequently reminds us it is the richest and has the "best" healthcare in the world. Alright for the rich, and the rich alone. This is the whole problem with mainstream American thinking on healthcare - it is just another competitive service available at a price, rather than an intrinsic human right. Where I've lived most of my life, in Australia and France, the systems are far from perfect, but access to care is on the basis of illness not insurance. Just ask American's who have fallen ill and needed hospital care in France.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Birdwatching
Posts: 3573
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:50 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
and has the "best" healthcare in the world

Are you sure? More like: the worst health care system in the world?

Soren  santahat 
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:57 pm



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 1):

Are you sure? More like: the worst health care system in the world?

No, I think he had it right - the best health care in the world, but the worst health care system...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7497
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:17 pm

The best health care...when it cares.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
nws2002
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:04 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:21 pm

Just because our system and our priorities are different doesn't make them bad. We are constantly reminded that we need to accept that other countries are different and have different priorities. Well we place healthcare in the realm of completive services that an individual must pay for. The world community needs to accept this and move on. We do not deny emergency care to our citizens, and there are many free or low-cost clinics available along with a variety of state insurance options for those who need them.
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:26 pm

If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US State

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 5):
If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 4):
Just because our system and our priorities are different doesn't make them bad. We are constantly reminded that we need to accept that other countries are different and have different priorities.

The US health care culture is not bad because it is "different", is bad because it compromises basic human rights. There are some fundamental rights that cannot be put at the mercy of the markets: basic health and education are examples. Whilst advocates of the commercialized US health system comfort any qualms they might have with the assurance that they "do not deny emergency care" in theory, in practice it is often not accessible in time, nor are preventable illnesses treated as they are not yet "emergencies". The system is immoral because treating healthcare ONLY as a commercially competitive service ignores the fact that illness and wealth do not come in proportion to each other, meaning many will not be able to exercise their human right to the care they need.

[Edited 2010-01-31 12:41:50]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:49 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

If you understood the US Constitution, a state has absolutely no ability to restrict entry into it by a foreign national. The power to regulate immigration is exclusively a federal government power.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:56 pm



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 7):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

If you understood the US Constitution, a state has absolutely no ability to restrict entry into it by a foreign national. The power to regulate immigration is exclusively a federal government power.

Again, if you would just read the articles on the topic, it is the states individually, like Florida, who are refusing access to hospital beds which in turn is causing the military and Washington to suspend the evacuation flights. No need to give me a lesson on the constitution, it doesn't enter into the issue.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 20991
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:01 pm

As the USA is the closest neighbour with the abundance of medical facilities then they should be doing everything 24/7 to assist.

Everybody likes to compare things to 9/11 !! Well this is Haiti's except hundreds of times worse ....
 
nws2002
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:04 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:14 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
The US health care culture is not bad because it is "different", is bad because it compromises basic human rights. There are some fundamental rights that cannot be put at the mercy of the markets: basic health and education are examples.

Many American's believe that humans have the basic right to not be discriminated against based on age, gender, and many other qualification. Yet we are often told that other countries do not have they same values and we need to accept it. We do healthcare our way, and polls show that the overwhelming majority do not want a universal healthcare system like many other countries have.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
Whilst advocates of the commercialized US health system comfort any qualms they might have with the assurance that they "do not deny emergency care" in theory, in practice it is often not accessible in time, nor are preventable illnesses treated as they are not yet "emergencies".

If you call an ambulance or show up at an emergency room they are required by law to examine you and treat any life threatening issues and transport you another facility if they cannot provide the required care. For the most part healthcare is left up to each state, just like many other issues. Each state has low income insurance available for those who need it.

The hospitals along the gulf coast, which are private institutions for the most part, are full and worried about payment for those that are already under their care. Until payment is guaranteed by the government (or another payor) they don't want anymore patients. Push further into the US and I'm sure the military could find many charity hospitals who are willing to take these patients for the PR if nothing else.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:38 pm

And I assume Europe is taking hundreds of thousands of Haitians in to take care of them, right?

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
rather than an intrinsic human right

Nobody has the right to the labor of another person. Nobody. Healthcare is not, and cannot, be a right. The fact that many socialized countries routinely deny treatment to many people should be enough evidence of that, unless you think they are abusing human rights too by doing this? And if you really think they don't deny treatment to anyone, you are fooling yourself.

[Edited 2010-01-31 13:41:28]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 20991
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:04 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
And I assume Europe is taking hundreds of thousands of Haitians in to take care of them, right?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Miami?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Europe?

If one of your family were critically ill and needed an operation would you send them to the nearest major city or make them ''hang on'' til they got to Europe?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:13 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Flight time from Port Au Prince to Miami?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Europe?



Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
If one of your family were critically ill and needed an operation would you send them to the nearest major city or make them ''hang on'' til they got to Europe?

Not all cases are like that, right? That's only a matter of planning. And it's not like the article is saying Florida does not want to help.

Point is, nobody has unlimited resources and there is only so much that can be done. This reality applies to those who think healthcare is a right, too.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7497
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:20 pm

Europe is nearer if you count the overseas lands.

France is taking injured to Martinique. But it seams that there are problems with the availability of the airport, the Americans allow only two hours rotations, that means it is impossible to land, go to the hospitals, and be back in time, due to the well known circulation nightmare.

So instead people and equipment are send to man hospitals there, and only the worst injured are flown elsewhere. Like on the French boat that has a hospital (or of course the American one).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mham001
Posts: 4190
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:27 pm

The states are concerned about who will pay for their care. It is similar to the illegal immigration issue, while individual states are required to provide healthcare, education and prisons for illegals, the federal government will not reimburse for it.

EDIT: here is a more detailed explananation. If Bush were still president he would be pilloried as he was in Katrina.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010013...time/02880419533791953494195792600

[Edited 2010-01-31 14:51:39 by mham001]
 
flanker
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:54 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Then why are you bitching about health care.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4551
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:20 pm



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
The states are concerned about who will pay for their care

Some things are above that, and this is one.

This is a very big natural disaster, and the bureaucrats are wondering who will pay for this? Seems a bit heartless to me.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
This reality applies to those who think healthcare is a right, too.

It is indeed a right. I pay my taxes - and while I have health insurance (that I never use much), should I not have it for some reason, the public system is there as a safety net, along with the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme that means that should I contract some horrible disease that requires super expensive drugs to treat it, I can get them at a price that doesn't send me broke. I won't have to make the decision about going broke or death.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Nobody has the right to the labor of another person. Nobody.

Yet when you all come to Australia and get yourselves lost in national parks out in the middle of nowhere, we are expected to search for you, spending millions of dollars in the process. Would you suggest that if you got lost out in the middle of nowhere, and were critically injured, that we should find you, and then say, pay first, or leave you to die?

It's the same thing.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:24 pm



Quoting Flanker (Reply 16):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Then why are you bitching about health care.

Because, as I've said several times above, it is the economic CULTURE of US healthcare, i.e. commercialization, that is the root cause of the suspension of care to the critically injured; the question is always, "But who will pay??"
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:48 am



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

Again, if you would just read the articles on the topic, it is the states individually, like Florida, who are refusing access to hospital beds which in turn is causing the military and Washington to suspend the evacuation flights. No need to give me a lesson on the constitution, it doesn't enter into the issue.

The states have no ability to block access to hospital beds. I know of no institution that the State of Florida owns. Take for example the University of Miami, Jackson Memorial Hospital - what does the state have to do with it?

This was an attempt by Charlie Crist (gov. of Florida) to capitalize on a bad situation to get money for the hospitals. It's has backfired on him when the White House called his bluff and then said the military stopped the flights because the Gov. said the hospitals are full. Crist is running for US Senate and they're making him look bad.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Your statement clearly indicates that you misunderstand the constitution because the states can't bar patients for any reason. As soon as they entered the country the hospitals would be required by Federal law to render emergency treatment. In addition to the power to regulate immigration, you might also want to research the issue of federal pre-emption.
 
mham001
Posts: 4190
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:20 am

Fair use from Time

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010013...time/02880419533791953494195792600

The military, whose large C-130 transport planes had until last Wednesday ferried out some 500 of the worst injured, indicated that it had halted the flights because Florida hospitals could no longer receive the patients, due to cost concerns that Republican Governor Charlie Crist expressed in a letter to the Obama Administration. Crist and the hospitals deny that assertion - "It's untrue," Crist said Saturday, calling it "astounding" the military would interpret his letter that way - and say they'd only asked the feds to help the economically battered state bear the long-term, multi-million-dollar price of treating Haiti's most seriously wounded casualties.

For its part, the Administration acknowledged that Crist's letter had actually not prompted the flight suspension and insisted instead that this was simply a logistical issue - one it promised to have resolved by Monday morning, when the flights were expected to resume. "It's a matter of finding [U.S.] medical facilities with the capacity to treat such a large amount of [critically injured] people and near runways where C-130s can land," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor told TIME. Vietor announced Sunday that the U.S. had successfully "worked to increase cooperation with our international partners, NGOs and states to expand access to additional facilities." Crist said military planes were still flying less seriously injured people, including three on Sunday, to Florida hospitals.
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:42 am



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 5):
If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.

Way to jump the gun pal. This has absolutely nothing to do with the W/H. This has to do with space and logistical problems, What in the world does it have to do with racism?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

 checkmark 
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Okie
Posts: 3535
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:43 am



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 18):
Because, as I've said several times above, it is the economic CULTURE of US healthcare



Quoting Cpd (Reply 17):

This is a very big natural disaster, and the bureaucrats are wondering who will pay for this? Seems a bit heartless to me



Quite Frankly, the US is going many fold beyond the amount of effort made by other countries.
My suggestion would be that you should spend your efforts to partition your own countries government to do more on all fronts and "pony up" and take some of the load before complaining about the US efforts. There are many needing healthcare in Haiti that are non critical and can withstand a 10+ hour flight just as well as waiting for the same period of time trying to get into the US.

Okie
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:46 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):

Way to jump the gun pal. This has absolutely nothing to do with the W/H. This has to do with space and logistical problems, What in the world does it have to do with racism?

And neither did Bush respecting the Louisiana Gov.'s sovereign authority and not ordering in the US military into a state without her request. Yet that act was termed racist.
 
sy738fan
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:56 am

I'm not going to jump into the debate on US domestic healthcare, since it has little to do with the US response to the crisis in Haiti.

On the topic of whether the US is doing "enough", here's a breakdown of humanitarian aid sources in response to the earthquake: http://ocha.unog.ch/fts/reports/dail...a_R10_E15797_asof___1002010205.pdf

Do I think that US state and local governments should do whatever they can to help? Yes, of course. To deny access to medical care to anyone for political posturing is shameful. But frankly, so is pointing fingers at other countries while your own government's efforts are significantly less by comparison.
False. I do not miss Jim.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:01 am



Quoting Okie (Reply 22):
Quite Frankly, the US is going many fold beyond the amount of effort made by other countries.
My suggestion would be that you should spend your efforts to partition your own countries government to do more on all fronts and "pony up" and take some of the load before complaining about the US efforts. There are many needing healthcare in Haiti that are non critical and can withstand a 10+ hour flight just as well as waiting for the same period of time trying to get into the US.

When the Christmas 2004 Tsunami devastated Indonesia and surrounding islands. Australia responded right away with cash aid of over 1 billion Australian $$. We also took many thousands of wounded by airlift into our hospitals and cared for them, this was done because Indonesia is our economic area, we didn't expect the US to help in any way as there are almost on the other side of the world.

I think, seeing US is really the closest and BIGGEST economic power in the immediate area, then it should fall on your shoulders to handle this problem. of course we can help in other ways, such as search and rescue etc, but expecting Australia to help with the sick and wounded is really unreasonable.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting Cpd (Reply 17):
Yet when you all come to Australia and get yourselves lost in national parks out in the middle of nowhere, we are expected to search for you, spending millions of dollars in the process. Would you suggest that if you got lost out in the middle of nowhere, and were critically injured, that we should find you, and then say, pay first, or leave you to die?

It's the same thing.

You think if you get shot in the head and are still alive you will be denied treatment in the US because you are unconscious and can't pull out a credit card when you get to the ER?

As for the rescue, what about rescues being called out because they are becoming too costly? Is this violating my rescue rights? I think not. Nor do I have the right to demand someone come to my rescue against their will. You can still argue these are proper roles of the state, but they are privileges and not rights.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 18):
"But who will pay??"

Call off my expensive rescue, stop paying for my medicine when I am too sick. . . money, money, money. . . is this how the state gauges my "rights" by how costly I am??? Isn't this what you repudiate?

Again, don't fool yourself if you think the state doesn't have to deal with scarce resources and "who will pay" questions.

[Edited 2010-01-31 20:29:52]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:12 am



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 23):
And neither did Bush respecting the Louisiana Gov.'s sovereign authority and not ordering in the US military into a state without her request. Yet that act was termed racist.

You have no clue. Bush wasn't outright called a racist. The opinion of Kanye West does not represent the rest of the country's opinion. His admin acted slowly in it's response to Hurricane Katrina, which is why he was heavily criticized for his admin's disorganization after Katrina.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:12 am



Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 4):
Just because our system and our priorities are different doesn't make them bad.

Our priorities are insurance company profitability and better care for those with more money. Those are f'ed up priorities.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
The states are concerned about who will pay for their care. It is similar to the illegal immigration issue, while individual states are required to provide healthcare, education and prisons for illegals, the federal government will not reimburse for it.

And I am SURE that the states are offering all that tax revenue back to illegal immigrants.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
If Bush were still president he would be pilloried as he was in Katrina.

Um, the fact that Obama reacted so much more quickly and forcefully to a situation in another country than Bush did in a major domestic city just shows how much Bush deserved all he got, and more, over Katrina.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 23):
And neither did Bush respecting the Louisiana Gov.'s sovereign authority and not ordering in the US military into a state without her request. Yet that act was termed racist.

1) The ultimate cause of the disastrous flooding was the piss-poor job the federal government did building, maintaining and updating what THEY built.

2) Sovereign authority? This was a declared disaster area, both at the local and state levels. The feds could have gone in right away and didn't.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 27):
Bush wasn't outright called a racist.

Actually, he was, and he deserved it. That said, what he deserved more was the criticism of the way crony politics bit him in the behind with Brownie and Skelator screwing the pooch.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 27):
The opinion of Kanye West does not represent the rest of the country's opinion.

It represented the opinion of most New Orleanians I know, both white and black
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:03 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
2) Sovereign authority? This was a declared disaster area, both at the local and state levels. The feds could have gone in right away and didn't.

Please cite for me the provision of US law that would allow a President to send in US Military troops without the consent of the governor upon a federal disaster declaration?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:49 pm

Oy, some people will look for anything to bash the US.

The amount of aid the US is contributing towards Haiti (both government as well as private donations) is unprecedented. And then we have some people on this site (and elsewhere) who will stop at nothing to criticize us.

Predictable, really....
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:06 pm



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 30):
Oy, some people will look for anything to bash the US.

The amount of aid the US is contributing towards Haiti (both government as well as private donations) is unprecedented.

Whilst I in no way want to dimish it, contrary to popular belief, the generosity of US aid, is at the low end of developed country / OECD performance as a percentage of GDP or private wealth.

http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/ Click on aid and definition, see it includes private and state aid.

Discussing facts, relevant to current events is not 'bashing'. There are vocal Americans on the another thread discussing the ban on burqas in public facilities in France. I don't see that as "bashing France", but legitimate debate.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:08 pm

Another key question here is what is going to happen with these Haitians after they are treated in Les Etats Unis? I have a sneaking suspicion that very few of them will ever return to Haiti and will be granted amnesty on humanitarian grounds. In terms of a state like Florida, which is facing severe budget problems, the question is whether the state can absorb thousands of Haitians onto their welfare rolls. This isn't like an event that occurred on Barbados or St. Maarten, let alone pretty much anywhere else in the Caribbean, Haitians are generally very undereducated compared to their neighbors. The Haitian community in South Florida isn't exactly thriving economically and gangs are rampant. I just really question what's going to happen here in that regard.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:15 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 32):
Another key question here is what is going to happen with these Haitians after they are treated in Les Etats Unis? I have a sneaking suspicion that very few of them will ever return to Haiti and will be granted amnesty on humanitarian grounds. In terms of a state like Florida, which is facing severe budget problems, the question is whether the state can absorb thousands of Haitians onto their welfare rolls. This isn't like an event that occurred on Barbados or St. Maarten, let alone pretty much anywhere else in the Caribbean, Haitians are generally very undereducated compared to their neighbors. The Haitian community in South Florida isn't exactly thriving economically and gangs are rampant. I just really question what's going to happen here in that regard.

All valid long term questions, but you don't see that as a reason for withdrawing emergency care to the "critically injured" CNN mentions I hope?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:16 pm



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 29):

Please cite for me the provision of US law that would allow a President to send in US Military troops without the consent of the governor upon a federal disaster declaration?

Show me where the governor didn't consent. Right.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:16 pm



Quoting Cpd (Reply 17):
Seems a bit heartless to me.


Its not heartless, it is practical. Even if we had universal government provided health care with no per person spending limits, there would still be a finite supply of money to pay doctors, nurses, support facilities and buy supplies. Asking "how do we pay for this" simply insures that we have the resources to assist for the duration of the disaster, and in the next disaster. We may be perceived as a wealthy nation, but there are limits to our resources and we have economic problems of our own.

There are many who would like to see a decline in US power and significance in the world. One of the side effects of that is that we will have reduced assets to respond to these sorts of incidents.
Proud OOTSK member
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:26 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 33):
All valid long term questions, but you don't see that as a reason for withdrawing emergency care to the "critically injured" CNN mentions I hope?

Yes and no. I think the US should be doing all that it can on the ground in Haiti in terms of treating people there.

I believe only the critically wounded should be brought to American hospitals -- spread out among states, if possible.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:05 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 31):

Whilst I in no way want to dimish it, contrary to popular belief, the generosity of US aid, is at the low end of developed country / OECD performance as a percentage of GDP or private wealth.

http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/ Click on aid and definition, see it includes private and state aid.

We are talking Haiti in particular, and quite frankly that index you quote is ridiculous. The US is severely "dinged" for emissions and negative environmental impact -- the last I checked that wasn't necessarily relevant from a "giving aid" perspective.

I didn't say there wasn't room to discuss this issue. However, your implication that the US is somehow denying care to Haitians who need it is offensive and not true.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:09 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
it is the states individually, like Florida, who are refusing access to hospital beds

States aren't "barring" anyone, as they do not have immigration powers, nor do they have the right to deny critical healthcare to anyone (equal protection to all, not just US citizens. Same reason illegal immigrants are allowed access to lawyers and advised of their other rights)

They have asked that until they can get more beds set up, and financing in place (the money is there, it just needs to be actually made available), that flights be halted.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:13 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Show me where the governor didn't consent. Right.

The Gov. has to request the aid. Therefore, the burden is on the one advocating the position that the aid was requested. First you made the statement that a state and local disaster declaration allowed the deployment of US military forces but offer no evidence that such action is legal. Now, you're saying that absent an objection from the Gov, a US President can deploy military forces domestically for (what I only assume is) humanitarian reasons. Again, where's that authority?

42 USC Sec. 5170b(c) provides that the request for the utilization of DoD resources and assistance MUST come from the Governor. Had Pres. Bush acted without the express request and permission of the Gov. (which history shows that she twice denied, the second time in writing), he would have violated federal law.

http://www.disastersrus.org/FEMA/Stafact.htm
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:17 pm



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 37):
We are talking Haiti in particular, and quite frankly that index you quote is ridiculous. The US is severely "dinged" for emissions and negative environmental impact -- the last I checked that wasn't necessarily relevant from a "giving aid" perspective.

Not sure what you're referring to: the "aid" tab I directed you to does not mention emissions or environmental impact, only state and private donations. You must be looking at blended results. In any case, if you want aid vs GDP there are plenty of OECD reports.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
mham001
Posts: 4190
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:45 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):

Um, the fact that Obama reacted so much more quickly and forcefully to a situation in another country than Bush did in a major domestic city just shows how much Bush deserved all he got, and more, over Katrina.

Obama made a number of more forceful announcements and statements but many of the same issues played out on the ground for which he gets little criticism, although you can find the details if you look. Personally, I would give him a break because it is not our land, however it is concentrated in a significantly smaller area than the Katrina. Your statement proves that you, like many, fail to understand the true magnitude of Katrina, it was much, much more than just New Orleans.
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:27 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
Just ask American's who have fallen ill and needed hospital care in France.

It's expensive for a reason....things are different here....your tax dollars don't pay for that 15 year old's abortion....you need insurance
Our Returning Champion
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States

Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:40 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 42):
It's expensive for a reason....things are different here....your tax dollars don't pay for that 15 year old's abortion....you need insurance

I don't think that's really the reason why is expensive in the US for health care.

Alot of 3rd parties (like drug companies etc) are making heaps of $$$$$ at Mr average's expense I'd say, wouldn't you ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Braybuddy, Google Adsense [Bot] and 8 guests