ua777222
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Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:27 pm

I've been looking to get into a Tahoe as my Mini Cooper is growing to be too small.

I've found one that is in great shape and has low miles. But, it's a 2WD. A 2WD Z71 to be exact.

I'm not sure I'd exactly need the 4WD except for future trips to Tahoe which is only a few hours north of here.

Any input would be appreciated especially if you've driven either Tahoe.
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:36 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
except for future trips to Tahoe

Do you do a fair amount of driving in snow?

Do you do any off-roading?

If the answer to above-two questions is 'No'; then a 2WD Tahoe should suit you fine. Plus a 2WD Tahoe will get better (and I use the term better somewhat lossely) fuel economy than a comparable 4WD model.

Word of caution: Since you're moving up from a Mini Cooper; either version of the Tahoe will yield some initial sticker shock when fueling.

If the difference in fuel economy (between the Tahoe and Mini Cooper) is too severe for you; you might want to look at smaller SUVs (or even CUVs) as an alternative.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
ua777222
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:41 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 1):
Word of caution: Since you're moving up from a Mini Cooper; either version of the Tahoe will yield some initial sticker shock when fueling.

I actually got into an accident and there was this long drawn out process and was given an 08' Tahoe as a loaner for about 3 months.

I just bought the Cooper in June but I'm putting too many miles on it and want to park a car somewhere and not worry about what's going to happen to it.

I don't do much off roadng and no to the snow for now, but I want to know that if I plop down on the car, I won't be restricted.

Now I get to try to battle a dealership into giving me a used car with a trade-in of a next to new car that's worth about 10k more.
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:57 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 2):
I just bought the Cooper in June but I'm putting too many miles on it and want to park a car somewhere and not worry about what's going to happen to it.

What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

If you're worried about something happening to your Mini Cooper; wouldn't similar hold true for a Tahoe?

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 2):
I don't do much off roadng and no to the snow for now, but I want to know that if I plop down on the car, I won't be restricted.

Restricted in what way? If you have a 2WD model and are that worried about occasionally getting stuck; just put some additional weight in the back and invest in a couple of snow tires during the winter months. Many have done that for years (long before the wide-spread use of SUVs or FWD cars).

Additionally, one can have the best and most snow-worthy vehicle in the land but still have problems if one drives over-confident. During my drive to Massachusetts (from Pennsylvania) the day after the big December (12/20/09) snowstorm; the only 2 vehicles I saw off the side of the road (and appeared stuck) at different locations were either AWD/4WD Subarus.

Something to ponder.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
ua777222
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:03 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 3):
What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

If you're worried about something happening to your Mini Cooper; wouldn't similar hold true for a Tahoe?

It's not that I live in a bad neighborhood, I leave my car parked in San Francisco some nights and during the days. And in SF, you park where you can find it. Also, it isn't just a plain-Jane Cooper, there are about 8k worth of options. The price of the car is my fault, and one of the reasons that I'm looking for something less expensive.

When I bought the car I was using public transit to get to work and now that my job has changed, I am driving over 1,500 miles a month which in the Bay Area is a good amount.

Thanks for your great input.
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:37 pm

I had a 4WD Tahoe and still managed to get it stuck a few times. The problem with the Tahoe is that it is a HEAVY vehicle with a lot of weight up front, and the tire patch isn't that great. I used to have a Jeep Grand Cherokee - smaller, lighter, but as much power and the same tire patch or thereabouts - it was far, far better in the snow or off-road.

If you never go off-road, fine. But if you intend to drive on snow, I'd be wary of a 2WD Tahoe. The 4WD under-steered like a cow, and while the 2WD might have a slightly better weight balance, it will be neutered by the loss of power to the front wheels.

I'd say a 2WD Tahoe is only good for Soccer Moms living between Southern California and Florida.
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A342
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:13 pm

I don't want to sound rude, but...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I'd say a 2WD Tahoe is only good for Soccer Moms living between Southern California and Florida.

I'd say a 2WD Tahoe is completely useless.


If you just want space, consider a station wagon or a van.

If you also want off-road / snow capability, then you need a 4WD.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
If you just want space, consider a station wagon

Isn't that what a 2WD SUV essentially is?

Side bar: there hasn't been a full-size station wagon on the market since 1996. Since UA777222's looking for something less than 5 years old; a 2WD SUV may fit his space needs.

One item not yet mentioned (not sure whether UA777222 needs this or not) is that MOST 2WD SUVs (particularly the turck-based models) have higher towing capacities than their 4WD counterparts.

[Edited 2010-02-08 09:49:04]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
eaa3
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:47 pm

Snow: 4WD
No snow: 2WD
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:40 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
If you just want space, consider a station wagon or a van.
  No point buying a tank, that will handle like crap regardless if its 2WD or 4WD.

Get one of these, AWD is standard:



For $35K it is cheaper than a Tahoe, better built, more efficient, more features, more speed, better handling, and infinitely better looking. And just as capable when it comes to space.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:56 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 9):
For $35K it is cheaper than a Tahoe

You may want to re-read some of his earlier posts; he's not inquiring about a NEW (2010) Tahoe.

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
I've found one that is in great shape and has low miles. But, it's a 2WD. A 2WD Z71 to be exact.
Quoting UA777222 (Reply 2):
given an 08' Tahoe


That being said, he SHOULD get a much cheaper price w/a 2-year old model; especially a 2WD.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 9):
And just as capable when it comes to space.

You can't tell me for ONE MINUTE that that Audi wagon has MORE interior room/cargo space as a Tahoe. The Tahoe's shoulder-room for all 3 rows is at least OVER 61" and it's 1st and 2nd rows have at least more than 60" of hip-room. The Tahoe's cargo volume (w/2nd and 3rd row seats folded) is 108.9 cubic feet.

2010 Tahoe specs. (2008 model's probably similar):
http://www.chevrolet.com/tahoe/features-specs/

UA777222's obviously inquiring about something LARGER than a mid-size station wagon..
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Dreadnought
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
You can't tell me for ONE MINUTE that that Audi wagon has MORE interior room/cargo space as a Tahoe.

Actually I was shocked at how poor the Tahoe is for roominess. Granted mine was a 1998, but it's still the same basic frame isn't it? Rear seat legroom was crap. For adults, it was far more comfortable to ride in the back of the BMW 540 Station Wagon we had at the same time.

Of course the cargo space was bigger. But frankly how often do you fill a station wagon to the roof?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:08 pm

If the Mini Cooper is too small then you need to get a Mini Cooper Clubman, bingo more space and a lot nicer than the POS Tahoe.



PS the Clubman is also a better drive than the regular Mini, the extra length in the wheelbase really does make it a better handling car and its ride comfort is also superior...I love my Mini, I couldn't understand how you could even contemplate swapping a Mini for a truck. You could always trade for a Countryman if you really need a lot more space.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
If you also want off-road / snow capability, then you need a 4WD.
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 8):
Snow: 4WD
No snow: 2WD

Not really, if you have experience driving on snow or ice, you do not need 4WD. I have been buying F-150s for years, and never even considered a 4WD version because it is not needed. Just make sure the Tahoe has a factory tow kit with the limited slip rear end, or even full posi-traction. You can tell this by looking at the rear end and see if it has a metal tag attached, standard one wheel drive rear ends do not have the tag, but all with limited slip or more do have it, It sends power to both rear whells when one begins to slip on snow or ice.

If you buy a 4WD SUV/Truck, and never use it, you still have to pay for the extra maintenance on it. But if you think 4WD brings you peace of mind, then also consider a used AWD vehicle, like a Suberu, or some other make and model.

4WD is better for off road use than it is if you only drive on plowed, or nearly plowed roads.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
If you just want space, consider a station wagon

Isn't that what a 2WD SUV essentially is?

Correct, but it does carry and tow more than a station wagon can.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):

I'd say a 2WD Tahoe is completely useless.


If you just want space, consider a station wagon or a van.

If you also want off-road / snow capability, then you need a 4WD.

I agree. You either need the capabilities of an SUV (ground clearance, 4WD, interior space) or you don't. A 2WD SUV makes as much sense as a dryer without a heating element. If you're going to use it go to Tahoe, you need the 4WD or you will be one of the poor schmucks on the side of the Donner Pass putting chains on (which is always a lot harder than you think it's going to be). If you don't need the 4WD capability, get a mini-van, which will give you better space with similar gas mileage.
-Doc Lightning-

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Fly2HMO
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:31 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):

You can't tell me for ONE MINUTE that that Audi wagon has MORE interior room/cargo space as a Tahoe.

I said it was just as capable.

On the same token, you can't tell me for one MINUTE more than 95% of SUV owners use all that interior space. Sure, the A4 may only get 50 cubic feet, but having owned several stations wagons that size I can guarantee it's more than enough for 90% of the OPs needs. I was just in tahoe a few weeks ago. Even with all the camping equipment for 5 people in there it was still not enough to justify the need for it and all that crap could have easily fitted in an A4. In fact, the most common station wagons we saw on the drive to Tahoe were A4s.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
UA777222's obviously inquiring about something LARGER than a mid-size station wagon..

The only mention of that is occasional ski trips, for which the A4 is plenty.

And just like there's used Tahoes, there's used A4s.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Of course the cargo space was bigger. But frankly how often do you fill a station wagon to the roof?

My thoughts exactly. Heck when I moved from Arizona to Texas I fit ALL my crap in my tiny Dodge Neon. And there was still room for one passenger. My friend did something similar with his GTI after college, and that doesn't even have a trunk for freaks sake!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
I've been looking to get into a Tahoe as my Mini Cooper is growing to be too small.

It seems like going from one extreme to another...
Anyway what's the point of driving a car designed to be used off the road, but which you can't even take off the road given the lack of 4WD and has all the negatives of a SUV while ON the road?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Quoting A342 (Reply 6):

I'd say a 2WD Tahoe is completely useless.


If you just want space, consider a station wagon or a van.

If you also want off-road / snow capability, then you need a 4WD.

I agree. You either need the capabilities of an SUV (ground clearance, 4WD, interior space) or you don't. A 2WD SUV makes as much sense as a dryer without a heating element. If you're going to use it go to Tahoe, you need the 4WD or you will be one of the poor schmucks on the side of the Donner Pass putting chains on (which is always a lot harder than you think it's going to be).

Like any peice of machinery, if you know how to operate it correctly, you don't need the 4X4, as it is a waste of weight, needs maintenance (whether you use it or not), causes you to use more gas, and will not get used very often.

Just because Cal-Trans will not make you put on chains over Donner Pass in the winter, does not garuntee you will not get stuck because you have a 4X4 (you can get stuck with chains, too). Most people who own them do not know how to use the 4X4 features, anyway.

As I understand it, Cal-Trans only requires chains when it is snowing and snow removal opertions are going on anyway. Even in the Serria Nevadas it does not snow everyday in the winter time.
 
ua777222
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:00 pm

I had a clubman s when my car was last serviced. It was nice, but it's just a longer version of my current car.

I liked being able to take my lab and throw him into the Tahoe and being able to tote him around. I also seem to be hauling stuff around for both my job and my house. I like the bucket seats in the first row as well.

I'm not going to be buying a station wagon.
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:19 pm

I thought this was appropriate for the discussion:



   Â

(Am I the only one getting pissed off with all the AAAAAAs randomly appearing?    )
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:37 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 19):
I thought this was appropriate for the discussion:

Interesting that the SUV in that pic is actually a Toyota.   

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 19):
(Am I the only one getting pissed off with all the AAAAAAs randomly appearing? )

The only time I've seen those appear is when I select a smilie, preview the post, then go back and edit it for some reason.

What has worked for me (thus far) once that happens, I edit the post (prior to it being initially posted) and replace the smilie. It's a bit of a pain but it has worked for me thus far.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
A342
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:45 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
Isn't that what a 2WD SUV essentially is?

No, a SUV is much heavier, is less efficient and handles worse.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
Side bar: there hasn't been a full-size station wagon on the market since 1996. Since UA777222's looking for something less than 5 years old; a 2WD SUV may fit his space needs.

Depends on what you consider full size. A Volvo V70 or Dodge Magnum is certainly not small. Same goes for an A6 Avant, E-class T-modell or 5-series Touring.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Not really, if you have experience driving on snow or ice, you do not need 4WD. I have been buying F-150s for years, and never even considered a 4WD version because it is not needed. Just make sure the Tahoe has a factory tow kit with the limited slip rear end, or even full posi-traction. You can tell this by looking at the rear end and see if it has a metal tag attached, standard one wheel drive rear ends do not have the tag, but all with limited slip or more do have it, It sends power to both rear whells when one begins to slip on snow or ice.

Starting from a standstill on a steep icy slope is often almost impossible with 2WD (just snow is fine), even if you have traction control or limited slip differentials. Only chains or 4WD will help you then. (Note: winter tires are a must anyway!)
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Granted mine was a 1998, but it's still the same basic frame isn't it?

The body (& platform) has changed twice since then: once in 2000 (GMT800 platform) and again in 2007 (which is the current model is based from, the GMT900 platform). It usually changes within a year or two following the full-size pick-up truck line (Silverado) platform changes.

Your '98 model was from the GMT400 platform.

Granted, it's from Wiki; so take for what it's worth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Tahoe

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Depends on what you consider full size.

Time to post some true full-size wagons to drive the point home:

1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate


1996 Chevrolet Caprice Estate


Going back a little further,

1991 Ford Country Squire


1991 Mercury Colony Park
http://www.auto-visuals.com/images/steve/mercury.jpg

These wagons (with all the rear seats folded) could easily fit a stack of 4x8 sheets of plywood (placed flat).

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Dodge Magnum is certainly not small.

When one compares the cargo carrying capacities of a Magnum wagon vs. the 4 above-listed examples (despite the Magnum sporting a longer wheelbase); the Magnum (while certainly a nice vehicle) can't quite cut it. The rear roofline's a tad too raked, it's overall length and width is too short and narrow to make it make it a spacious cargo hauler.

Among today's vehicles, if one wants the equivalent room of a true full-size station wagon of yore; full-size SUVs like the Tahoe, Expedition, Sequioa and Armada seem to best meet that category. If wants more room; then there's always the longer Suburban and Expedition EL model.

Back to the topic at hand, the only reason why UA777222 is even asking or considering a 2WD Tahoe is because he's been driving a loner for a while and the owner may have made him an offer to buy it (guess on my part).
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:15 am

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
I'm not sure I'd exactly need the 4WD except for future trips to Tahoe which is only a few hours north of here.

Have you looked into a Chevy Traverse? Its just as big as a Tahoe inside, have a much more fuel efficient V6 engine, and has all of the latest safety equipment? A brand-new one will cost about $26K-28K USD. I personally think the Traverse is a MUCH better buy than a Tahoe - and yes, the Traverse come in 2WD and 4WD versions. The Traverse will not make a terrific tow-vehicle though - if you are planning on towing a camper or boat, then go for the 4WD Tahoe.
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cptkrell
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:20 am

I like the Tahoe. 2WD will give you better mileage but remember with the 4X4 you have the option of venturing into worse-off sojourns. Don't forget you'll get great traction up those San Francisco hills in wet slippery weather! If you really like the 2WD, go for it, though.

My 1WD S-10 is a good economical grocery-getter, although I mostly use my 4X4 Silverado because I like the versatility, especially when unexpectedly needed, much more. Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
ua777222
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:48 am

I guess I'll see what's out there and jump.

I was with a friend today and she got a flat tire and had to call for an auto guy to come out and change her tire. He was some individual contractor who happened to be driving a 2WD Tahoe and says he doesn't miss the 4x4. Said his insurance rate went down as well.

Decisions.....decisions....
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BMI727
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
If you don't need the 4WD capability, get a mini-van, which will give you better space with similar gas mileage.

...and also make you look like one of those thirty something losers who has already given up on life and shows it by wearing socks with sandals, using the phrase "okey-dokey", and driving a minivan.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
Time to post some true full-size wagons to drive the point home:

Blame CAFE. Part of the reason for the rise of crossovers and the demise of station wagons is the desire to have them treated as trucks. What does an Equinox do that a Impala wagon couldn't?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
1996 Chevrolet Caprice Estate

My mom still has her 1992 model, white with a blue cloth interior. 8 seats, three in front, three in back and two in a rear facing jumpseat. It has zero steering feel, an industrial sounding V8, and "wood" trim that I'm pretty sure would melt if I took a power saw to it.

But my mom likes it, and I have to admit it isn't bad. For one thing, it is like driving a goldfish bowl. It just doesn't have blind spots and the hood ornament lets you put the nose right up against the wall in the garage, which is necessary for a car of that size.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 19):
Am I the only one getting pissed off with all the AAAAAAs randomly appearing?

No, you're not. There are improvements and then there are "improvements." So far all I've seen are "improvements" and I'm still wondering exactly what has gotten better.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:23 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Starting from a standstill on a steep icy slope is often almost impossible with 2WD (just snow is fine), even if you have traction control or limited slip differentials. Only chains or 4WD will help you then. (Note: winter tires are a must anyway!)

what do you mean "or" 4WD. That is the most vague solution to a problem ive ever heard.

Winter tires are not a must on a SUV, you can get good MT or AT M+S tires and they will do just fine.

You dont want a 2WD SUV, the minuses far outweight the benefits of 4WD. If I was looking for a Tahoe id look for one with a NV246 (5 mode not the 2 mode) (aka the Autotrac in GM world). Its nowhere near as good as the best On-road to medium-offroad 4x4 system - Jeep QDII that can put 100% torque to any one wheel via E-Lockers (ELSDs) and has a permanent 48/52 torque split but the Autotrac isnt half bad for an On-demand 4WD system. Youve got wet clutch pack torque transfer from standard RWD to the front wheels, and you can always just drive in 2WD mode if you dont need 4WD. Not only that youve got a decent low range (2.64 if my memory serves me right) for sticky situations and a Neutral gear in the case if you need to tow it behind something.

BTW theres a whole ton of situations that warrant 4x4, not just "snow" and you can set the NV246 in the Tahoe to Auto-4WD and when it detects slippage you have less of a chance to go into a pole, the system isnt half bad because its got 2 sensor in the front and rear propshafts. You wont have to worry about over-accelerating from a stop in the rain and you wont have to worry as much if you lose grip on a curve on one side of the car in the rear.

Ive got a video that my friend took of me recovering a 2WD Silverado on wet grass in Florida on the side of the road. I had to strap it out of maybe a 5% grade (AT tires and alot of weight in the bed too). Its just generally a really strange idea to buy a 2WD SUV or Pickup unless you tow something big on paved roads ONLY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiBXv2lpNwQ

Certainly if youre considering a Tahoe there arent many alternatives. Japanese well youre pretty much looking at a Sequoia only in this cateogry. European theres really nothing you can buy, the idea of towing 7000lbs+ to them is a foreign one because the crap ISO 50mm swan hitch that the Europeans use is a joke, and then some compared to US Class IV and V 2"+ hitches. So naturally there is nothing that you can even put some good front tow hooks and usually there are no programers to calibrate for bigger AT or MT tires. Im not a Ford guy myself but you might look at an Expedition however Im not a fan of that 5.4L archaic Triton that hasnt been updated in ages in those cars.

The insurance rate argument is just stupid, if there is a difference its no more than a couple dollars and the MPG suffers usually 1mpg due to weight.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
I have been buying F-150s for years, and never even considered a 4WD version because it is not needed. Just make sure the Tahoe has a factory tow kit with the limited slip rear end, or even full posi-traction.

Errr..what do you mean limited slip end or even full posi-traction? Positraction is the name given by GM to LSDs. There is no difference between the two.

You can suggest he get himself a selectable locker, but from the sound of it he doesnt want to throw out the LSD along with axle, replace with a non-Positrac and then put on a $900 ARB and carry onboard air or a $500 Detroit Locker turning it on/off.

Im going to say this statement now as someone who off-roads alot, tows alot and finds diff fluid changes exciting: There isnt any car/station wagon that has a 4WD system worth cr** during high stress situations. Even really great systems such as Subaru VTD system with the Multi-Plate Clutch employed in these cars with a 55/45 torque split cannot touch what I have in my SUV even for on-road use. The only thing that is better for hardcore offroad and heavy duty use is front and rear solid axles with good lockers whether that be OxLockers, ARB, Detroits etc.

Before HMO gets his panties in a bunch ill say that the Audi Quattro system is alot of marketing, but in the real fails when put up against real 4x4 systems. Youve got a center Torsen that can only put 80% torque to the front and runs on a normal 40/60 split. Forget putting 100% torque to any one wheel, you cant even put 100% to the front if you need it. The new vectoring system is better but still you only get half the package as its only really good in the rear where it can distribute power from left to right, and by nature it of the design you only get 90% power to any of the rear wheels.
Its nothing new, Mitsubishi has had this unde the name Acitve Yaw Control in the Evo for about 15+ years so I dont know why people are getting hyped up.
 
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 27):
Winter tires are not a must on a SUV, you can get good MT or AT M+S tires and they will do just fine.

Trust me, as someone who has spent months at a time in the snow, While you might be OK with all season tires and 4WD, you will get a huge advantage by putting on snow tires, particularly when braking. Proper snow tires have a very soft compound, because normal tires simply become too hard at cold temperatures, and don't grip. The downside to snow tires is if you drive around with them during the summer, they won't last more than 10-15K miles.

I remember driving up a pass to Gstaad in a blizzard one day years ago, and passed a bunch of front-wheel drive cars and even a few 4WD SUVs, unable to climb the hill - presumably they had 4-season tires. I was driving a 1996 BMW 328 with new snow tires. That trip taught me the value of snow tires.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:33 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Trust me, as someone who has spent months at a time in the snow, While you might be OK with all season tires and 4WD, you will get a huge advantage by putting on snow tires, particularly when braking. Proper snow tires have a very soft compound, because normal tires simply become too hard at cold temperatures, and don't grip. The downside to snow tires is if you drive around with them during the summer, they won't last more than 10-15K miles.

And what are you talking about here? I never said anything about All season HT tires and 4WD. I said M/T (although I admit not all in this category) and A/T Sever rated tires. Other than the usual studdable HT, theres plenty of tires out there for SUVs that make it drive like a tank in the snow without the need to put on a set of Blizzaks or Nokians. Just off the top of my head I can think of Destination MTs, Interco Trxus, BFG AT/KO, ProComp AT.

Beside that fact, what are we talking about, snow or ice? M/T tires perform very well in the snow because they have almost no sipping, but on ice they are worthless. Studded winter tires are great on ice but in slush/soft snow they are garbage compared to an M/T or an A/T with proper tread.

Add to that theres plenty of SUVs out there that snow tires arent even an option as they dont exist in the size that is needed. That includes almost everyone that puts on lifts and upsizes to 32" + tires.
 
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:52 am

Driven a 2WD Suburban and I have a 4WD Yukon Denali right now, so...

I'd say the 2WD is good on dry, but I've also burned rubber and fishtailed in the Suburban a few times (lead foot on dry pavement).

I like the 4WD a lot better, but as others have said it's a very heavy handling car. I don't mind the heavy handling myself, and I like the intimidating presence.

Check how much you want to spend on gas though, I think mine gets about 11-11.5 mpg combined.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:59 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 27):
what do you mean "or" 4WD. That is the most vague solution to a problem ive ever heard.

I mean what I said. Starting from a standstill on a steep icy slope, you mostly need either chains or 4WD. What part don't you understand?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 27):
Winter tires are not a must on a SUV

They are a must on any car if temperatures regularly fall below ~ +7°C / +44°F.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I remember driving up a pass to Gstaad in a blizzard one day years ago, and passed a bunch of front-wheel drive cars and even a few 4WD SUVs, unable to climb the hill - presumably they had 4-season tires. I was driving a 1996 BMW 328 with new snow tires. That trip taught me the value of snow tires.

   Swiss mountain roads are the real test. Unlike other countries, the Swiss barely put salt on the street, if any.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 29):
Beside that fact, what are we talking about, snow or ice? M/T tires perform very well in the snow because they have almost no sipping, but on ice they are worthless. Studded winter tires are great on ice but in slush/soft snow they are garbage compared to an M/T or an A/T with proper tread.

For most people, the largest part of their driving will be on the road, so no deep snow. Hence why winter tires are useful.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 29):
Add to that theres plenty of SUVs out there that snow tires arent even an option as they dont exist in the size that is needed. That includes almost everyone that puts on lifts and upsizes to 32" + tires.

Do you mean a 32" rim diameter? Most useless things ever.

Winter tires are available in all common sizes.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:11 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
Time to post some true full-size wagons to drive the point home:

Blame CAFE. Part of the reason for the rise of crossovers and the demise of station wagons is the desire to have them treated as trucks.

No offense but you don't need to tell me that. I've been pile-driving the CAFE issue (especially w/regards to full-size cars and wagons) on these threads ever since I first started posting in the Non-Av. section.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
What does an Equinox do that a Impala wagon couldn't?

Probably fit in a garage a little better. Big grin

[Edited 2010-02-09 08:16:07]
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A332
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:29 pm

You can't even get a 2wd Tahoe in Canada... they are only available in the US and obviously because there are numerous sections of the US where you are not encountering snow.

If you want the Tahoe to handle winter driving, get the 4wd option for sure.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:38 pm

Ok, I'll throw out my $0.02 worth -

- If you feel you might want the 4x4, then get it. Better to have it and not need it than to need it at some point and not have it, IMHO.

- You might consider a 4th-generation (2003-2009) Toyota 4Runner. I've got an '03 4Runner 4x4 (V6) and not only does it have plenty of power and perform well off-road, I average around 22mpg. Not bad for an SUV. It's also VERY spacious.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:48 pm

BTW... I should add that I used to own a 2002 Yukon SLT 4x4 and it was a great truck all around, never any issues. I upgraded to my current Chevy Avalanche simply because I need the versatility of a truck box while keeping the cabin space & towing capabilities. You can't throw a load of gravel into the back of a Tahoe/Yukon...  Wink

I would buy another one if the situation ever presented itself again.

[Edited 2010-02-09 08:55:22]
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:00 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
I've found one that is in great shape and has low miles. But, it's a 2WD. A 2WD Z71 to be exact.

Are you 100% sure (as in looked underneath and saw no half-shafts going to the front wheel hubs) that it's a 2WD Z71? The Z71 package is (or at least was for many years) an upgrade package available only on 4WD trucks and SUVs.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 32):
Probably fit in a garage a little better.

My grandparents' Equinox is a less snug fit in their garage than the Venture they had before. On a side note, my grandpa had to make small cutouts in the side of the garage so their old Buick Roadmaster would fit.
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A342
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:18 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
Time to post some true full-size wagons to drive the point home:

That may be true, but in the end, it is up to the thread starter to decide.

Like some other posters, I find the jump from a Mini to a Tahoe to be somewhat extreme. For an airline, it would be like saying: the CRJ-700 has become too small, so we'll put a 777 on the route now.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
Among today's vehicles, if one wants the equivalent room of a true full-size station wagon of yore; full-size SUVs like the Tahoe, Expedition, Sequioa and Armada seem to best meet that category. If wants more room; then there's always the longer Suburban and Expedition EL model.

Or, as I have already said, a van (you'd get even more room).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
...and also make you look like one of those thirty something losers who has already given up on life and shows it by wearing socks with sandals, using the phrase "okey-dokey", and driving a minivan.

I'd say that's a fairly inaccurate generalization for most minivan drivers. At least here in Europe, and I didn't notice that in the USA either.

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 18):
I'm not going to be buying a station wagon.

What about an MB R-class?
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flanker
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 27):
Before HMO gets his panties in a bunch ill say that the Audi Quattro system is alot of marketing, but in the real fails when put up against real 4x4 systems.

OH hell no you didn't go there! I will put my old B5 up against anything. Even a tank.

  
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
I find the jump from a Mini to a Tahoe to be somewhat extreme.

Agreed, but as you stated earlier:

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
it is up to the thread starter to decide.

And as I mentioned earlier, UA777222's only inquiring about a Tahoe, because he's driven a loaner model for a while.

And as far as a drastic change is concerned; (unlike in aviation) if a single person marries someone w/kids, their vehicle selection and needs WILL definitely change. Can't necessarily fit the whole family and their gear in a Mini Cooper or even a Clubman. Granted, this is not the case w/UA777222's situation.

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
as I have already said, a van (you'd get even more room).

Depends on the van model in question. A full-size Chevy or Ford E-series van, absolutely (although 4WD is NOT offered on either of those models, the Ford might offer an AWD version); a minivan OTOH, it depends on the model in question. If UA777222's planning on doing any heavy-duty towing; a FWD minivan's out of the question.

But again, as you stated earlier,

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
it is up to the thread starter to decide.
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:32 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 31):
I mean what I said. Starting from a standstill on a steep icy slope, you mostly need either chains or 4WD. What part don't you understand?

The "or" and "mostly" part. You will go nowhere on a steep slope with all 4 tires touching ice with 4WD UNLESS youve got 4WD with chains or studs. Just because you have 4WD doesnt guarantee jack..
Same applies to level ground with just ice if you gun a 4WD with Open diffs vs.LSDs vs. Lockers you will just spin, albeit also sideways with lockers hence why people "crab walk" on steep slopes with them.

Quoting A342 (Reply 31):
They are a must on any car if temperatures regularly fall below ~ +7°C / +44°F.

No you dont, thats a false statement. You dont need specific Winter studdless (or even HT w/studds for ice in most situations) if youve got a good pair of ATs with Severe weather tread that are fantastic at sipping. Deflate the tire a bit for extra traction as needed and you will be fine. Even in extreme ice situations you can buy an AT tire thats pre-drilled for studs that alleviates ANY need for a winter tire.

Quoting A342 (Reply 31):
Do you mean a 32" rim diameter? Most useless things ever.

What are you talking about? 32" in rims?    I clearly said 32" and up tires. Where in gods name did you get rims from?

Quoting flanker (Reply 39):
OH hell no you didn't go there! I will put my old B5 up against anything. Even a tank.

Youd win against a tank on the interstate, but you cant even take on a good 4x4 system in an SUV in the snow. You dont stand a chance because even the best torque vectoring quattro (which you dont even have) system in the new Audis is not as good what I have from the factory.

Quoting TSS (Reply 36):
Are you 100% sure (as in looked underneath and saw no half-shafts going to the front wheel hubs) that it's a 2WD Z71? The Z71 package is (or at least was for many years) an upgrade package available only on 4WD trucks and SUVs.

There are plenty of Z71 2WD Tahoes around, even more of others such as the Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon.

As far as I rememeber the Z71 package has skid plates, locking rear-diff or LSD if applicable, front stabilizer bar and beefier shocks. Its a bunch of BS though, alot of the Z71 packages had G80 Eaton Lockers which were horse manure and alot of the factory non-Z71 trucks came with them also. The were nothing special either and its easy to rip one off just by catching it on something like a bigger branch on a high departure angle out of a freaking mudhole in an access road.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
- You might consider a 4th-generation (2003-2009) Toyota 4Runner. I've got an '03 4Runner 4x4 (V6) and not only does it have plenty of power and perform well off-road, I average around 22mpg. Not bad for an SUV. It's also VERY spacious.

Not exactly sure thats even close to the same class of car hehe. Its not bad except the 4th gen 4Runner is severely underpowered even with the 4.7L V8 next to top motors from the competition. In the V6 youve only got a crap-tastic on-demand selectable 4WD which wouldnt be a problem if it actually had front and rear lockers but its only a center Torsen lock and the option of the ever-breaking air rear. Id buy a Toyota FJ-40 though    , great 8" axles comparable to Dana 44s and certainly a world better than Dana 35Cs, shame the powerplants were a joke compared to the AMC Flat 6 in the Jeeps.

Im not even going to talk about the new 5th gen. Garbage.

[Edited 2010-02-09 18:35:13]
 
ua777222
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:01 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 36):
Are you 100% sure (as in looked underneath and saw no half-shafts going to the front wheel hubs) that it's a 2WD Z71? The Z71 package is (or at least was for many years) an upgrade package available only on 4WD trucks and SUVs.

I believe in 05' on it became an option to have 2WD.

Quoting A342 (Reply 38):
What about an MB R-class?

I'm trying to get away from that right now. MB is going to cost me money down the road. MX is expensive and if I break or need anything, its going to be 3x the cost of something equal on the Tahoe. I want to grab a Tahoe with 50-65k miles and then throw 100k on it myself. Money better spent than on a small box. Don't get me wrong, the Mini handles like a champ, but it doesn't fit my overall needs.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:14 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 42):
I'm trying to get away from that right now. MB is going to cost me money down the road. MX is expensive and if I break or need anything, its going to be 3x the cost of something equal on the Tahoe. I want to grab a Tahoe with 50-65k miles and then throw 100k on it myself. Money better spent than on a small box.

  

The R Class is one of the most impractical cars out there, which is why it completely failed to sell. I think in like the 5 years they sold less than they were projecting in selling in the US alone in 1 year.
 
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:03 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
Youd win against a tank on the interstate, but you cant even take on a good 4x4 system in an SUV in the snow. You dont stand a chance because even the best torque vectoring quattro (which you dont even have) system in the new Audis is not as good what I have from the factory.
B5 is 50/50 split. The newer gens. are 40/60.

If only the A4 was higher like the allroad, I could take on quite a few heavy duty winter vehicles. Biggest problem i had with mine, is the 01.5 sport package which was lower and if it snowed more than 12 inches i would basically be suspended in the air by the snow... LOL

Q7's are pretty good in the snow as well.

Well either way, i wouldn't want to be stuck in anything else other than an Audi. I am not biased at all really..  rotfl 

search audi snow in google.. lots of cool videos

[Edited 2010-02-09 20:21:56]
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EA CO AS
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:24 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
- You might consider a 4th-generation (2003-2009) Toyota 4Runner. I've got an '03 4Runner 4x4 (V6) and not only does it have plenty of power and perform well off-road, I average around 22mpg. Not bad for an SUV. It's also VERY spacious.

Not exactly sure thats even close to the same class of car hehe.

True - the 4Runner is far more reliable.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
the 4th gen 4Runner is severely underpowered

  

Pardon? How do you figure? 278 lb·ft of torque on the V6 4Runner compared to 305 lb·ft of torque on the V8 Tahoe - a MUCH heavier vehicle (4025lbs vs. 5500lbs).

Not sure how that's "severely underpowered" exactly...

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
Im not even going to talk about the new 5th gen. Garbage.

We agree there. Not sure why Toyota felt the need to mess with a good design.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting flanker (Reply 44):
B5 is 50/50 split. The newer gens. are 40/60.

If only the A4 was higher like the allroad, I could take on quite a few heavy duty winter vehicles.

Yes, its 50/50 split but only can transfer 17% back and forth. The new ones can transfer 80% to the front axle, and 100% to the rear and vector 90% power in the rear but none in the front.

Just the QDII in my WK can not only transfer 100% torque to either the front or reat axle, but I can transfer 100% power to the right or left side of the vehicle. To top it off it can transfer 100% power to any one wheel .

Youre talking about ELSDs (E-Lockers) with hydraulic electronically controlled clutch packs in the front and rear, center (transfer case) lock with a 2.72 low range that go from Open Diff to LSD to Full Lock vs. center Torsen that cant fully Lock. You would lose, and you would lose badly in any quattro system, even one with a Center and rear Torsen like in the higher end Audis.

Dont get me wrong Its a good system for a car but dont think that you can take on quality 4x4 systems in Pick-ups and SUVs because you cant. That being said, theres plenty that you could take on starting with garbage BMW X-Drive which is a reactive system based on dynamic control = compared to a Torsen proactive system. Good for the mall parking lat when its snowing, utter garbage in anything else.   

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 45):

Pardon? How do you figure? 278 lb·ft of torque on the V6 4Runner compared to 305 lb·ft of torque on the V8 Tahoe - a MUCH heavier vehicle (4025lbs vs. 5500lbs).

Not sure how that's "severely underpowered" exactly...

Are we talking strictly engine torque or the whole package here?

You are forgetting that the equation for horsepower is and what it actually is HP = (Torque x RPM) and the two are directly related to the cars performance. What you get at the wheels (horsepower) is the raw engine power (torque) combined with RPMs + transmission. Horsepower is the complete package because it takes into account not only raw power but also whats put to the wheels. Its also why Europeans like to use kW to determine power in their cars.

Hence by your definition we could pit a 05-06 Liberty with a 2.8L VM diesel that outputs 295lb/ft @ 1800rpm and say it has more power than a 4Runner. With a measly 160hp that would tell us nothing about the performance of the vehicle or the realities of the situation.

So read carefully what I wrote, I wrote underpowered compared to top motors from the competition. Do you really want to compare the Yota 4.7L V8 (top engine) used in the 5th Gen 4 Runner vs a 4.7L II FF V8 in the Grand Cherokee (nevermind the 5.7L Hemi which rips it apart) or the GM Vortec 5300 in the Trailblazer

[Edited 2010-02-09 21:34:50]
 
flanker
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:20 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 46):
Dont get me wrong Its a good system for a car but dont think that you can take on quality 4x4 systems in Pick-ups and SUVs because you cant. That being said, theres plenty that you could take on starting with garbage BMW X-Drive which is a reactive system based on dynamic control = compared to a Torsen proactive system. Good for the mall parking lat when its snowing, utter garbage in anything else.   

8 FEET DEEP!!! O SNAPP   
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting flanker (Reply 47):
8 FEET DEEP!!! O SNAPP

 

It snowed mad here in Chicago today. I went to Winnetka and I saw a poor soul in a Mercedes GLK 4Matic who couldnt get out of his long driveway which I estimate the grade was at 8-10% at the end of it. Got him out with tow straps in Reverse.  

Ive already even perfected the technique as shown here for idiots who bought SUVs (and really strange people who own regular cars) without tow hooks or hitches. The trick is to open the rear doors, put in some cardboard on the side for the paint not to scratch and rip the bad boy out:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc59/PA86/IMG_3866-1.jpg

Im certainly ready to practice that on your Audi also.



[Edited 2010-02-09 21:45:25]
 
flanker
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RE: Benefits Of A 2WD Vs. 4x4 Chevy Tahoe?

Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:13 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 48):
It snowed mad here in Chicago today. I went to Winnetka and I saw a poor soul in a Mercedes GLK 4Matic who couldnt get out of his long driveway which I estimate the grade was at 8-10% at the end of it. Got him out with tow straps in Reverse.  

Yeah everyone up there tells me this. had only about 1.5 inches here in Carbondale.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 48):
Im certainly ready to practice that on your Audi also.

LOL YOUD HAVE TO GET IT STUCK FIRST!!!! Good luck with that. 

Sadly i don't own it any more. Now i have the privilege of getting stuck in a 93 Saab 9000cs.
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