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solnabo
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Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:51 am

From The Local:

http://www.thelocal.se/24862/20100208/

Call me a rasist but this really ticks me off!!

//Mike >:-(   
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ajd1992
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:09 pm

Nothing racist about it.

I'm not a fan of religion anyway but at least I'm sensitive to it. This woman needs her head banging on the wall and some common sense put in her head.
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:39 pm

The craziest part of this whole thing is that he wasn't even hired yet.   
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mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:19 pm

"The court ruled that the agency was aware that the man's religious convictions prevented him from shaking hands with women he did not know."

What the??? I wonder if the court looked into whether it was forbidden to shake hands with women the man did not know under the man's religion? Or was it more of a custom to the man's circles/traditions?

Mandala499
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oly720man
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Would the woman have necessarily known? Nearly the reverse discussed here....

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/48899622.html

A recent "Ethicist" column in The New York Times Magazine reveals not only the superficiality of what passes for ethical thinking today, but also the limits of multiculturalism as applied to Orthodox Jews.

A woman wrote to the "Ethicist" with the following question. Her otherwise "courteous and competent real-estate agent" refused to shake her hand after signing a brokerage contract, explaining that as an Orthodox Jew he does not touch women. The woman described herself as both "shocked and offended." But since she was a good liberal who, in addition to opposing "sex discrimination of all sorts," also "supports freedom of religious expression," she was in a quandary.


It's a mark of respect, apparently, showing that there is to be no physical contact whatsoever. A handshake could lead to all manner of illicit activities, or so the logic goes.

A ban on touching acknowledges the natural physical attraction between men and women, and serves as a warning. Those who observe the ban convey the message that "the erotic element is excluded from our relationship." Far from showing a lack of "dignity and respect" for those of the opposite gender, observance of the ban reflects a determination to treat members of the opposite sex with the utmost respect - as everything but objects of sexual desire.
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solnabo
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:27 pm

.
HE is the a-hole in this story.

Imagine how she feel, not worth the dirt under his shoes.

How degrading for her. Wonder what the %&/ he is doing here?

Will he ever find a job in Sweden with that attitude towards women?

Don´t think so....

//Mike   

[Edited 2010-02-09 08:32:01]
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:48 pm

I've always felt that there should be a legal distinction between religious identity and religious behavior.

One does not choose to be born a "Muslim" or a "Jew" or a "Christian." Your parents choose your stated religion at your birth and changing it is difficult for many reasons. If someone refuses to hire me because I'm a Jew and for no other reason, that should, of course, be illegal.

On the other hand, you choose your religious behavior and I do not believe that religious behavior should be protected in anti-discrimination laws. If I have an employee who is unable to work on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Fridays due to their religious behavior, then under current law, I would have difficulty firing that employee, or even choosing to hire an employee whose religious behavior would not interfere with their job.

In other words, it is the responsibility of the applicant to know what requirements there are for the job. As in many things in life, the applicant must make a choice as to which is more important: religion or paying the bills.

Similarly, if you want to live and work in the First World in the West, you must accept that there are men and women and that our society works in an egalitarian way. If you do not wish to work within that system, I don't see why we should protect you. If he didn't have some excuse of "religion" to defend this behavior, he would most certainly have been fired. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 4):

A woman wrote to the "Ethicist" with the following question. Her otherwise "courteous and competent real-estate agent" refused to shake her hand after signing a brokerage contract, explaining that as an Orthodox Jew he does not touch women.

Again, it's a bunch of bullcrap. At no point in Torah or Talmud is this actually stated. It's something that Chassidic Jews have made up, much like their idolatrous worship of various Rebbis and their patently absurd decisions on Kosher laws. It is not a recognized part of mainstream Judaism and I think that it's absurd that some small group of people can make up a set of societally unacceptable behaviors and defend them as "religion."

I say it again: if your religious practices (not your religion, but your religious practices) are incompatible with adequate job performance (and handshakes are standard workplace practice in the Western world) then you should not have the job.
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777236ER
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:34 pm

Religion is a choice, therefore should be discriminated against.
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PPVRA
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7):
Religion is a choice, therefore should be discriminated against.

Not by the government. Should the government punish you depending on your opinions? Opinions are choices too.

ps: unless it's a job-qualification type thing, rather than something more along the lines of the other thread. I support the firm this guy was seeking a job with turning him down because of his beliefs.

[Edited 2010-02-09 09:58:17]
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futurepilot16
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:57 pm

I hate to sound like an asshole, but it annoys the hell out of me that people who are extremely religious, expects everyone to accommodate them at every whim. And to be even more frank, it's almost always Muslims who are constantly getting offended. It's absolutely stunning.   
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mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Fridays due to their religious behavior, then under current law, I would have difficulty firing that employee, or even choosing to hire an employee whose religious behavior would not interfere with their job.

Well, if converting was easy, one could... be a Muslim on friday, then a Jew on saturday, and Christian on Sunday... and go and apply to a 7days a week shift job... see how far that goes!   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
In other words, it is the responsibility of the applicant to know what requirements there are for the job. As in many things in life, the applicant must make a choice as to which is more important: religion or paying the bills.

Indeed... we have not heard of Muslims protesting for being fired from airlines for being forced to work on Fridays... unless I've missed something.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If you do not wish to work within that system, I don't see why we should protect you.

Goes and in hand with religion or paying the bills, or compromise between the two... the majority of the real world (regardless of faith, but excluding those who do not believe in religion) choose to balance the two.
Got someone applying to an airline (a green newbie) and asked if he can be off duty during friday prayers... he was shown the door pretty quickly... the airline did the same for a christian who refused to accept duty on sundays.
I do wonder if a Muslim in Europe applying for shift work, and demanded he be free of duty on Fridays (no, he won't duty swap, he demands to be off), be shown the door... can he sue for religious discrimination? If so, and the case gets accepted and he wins, something is wrong with the legal system!

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 9):
And to be even more frank, it's almost always Muslims who are constantly getting offended. It's absolutely stunning.

I'd go into more detail on that... why is it always Muslims from a certain part of the world who are constantly getting offended... is it religion? or is it the people? If the latter, of course, these people hide behind religion all the friggin' time...

I absolutely loathe people who deliberately annoys the rest of society by using the "religion card"... may they burn in hell!

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Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
why is it always Muslims from a certain part of the world who are constantly getting offended...

Probably because where many of them come from, Islam is the law of the land, and they can't adapt to the fact that other people behave differently.
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mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:40 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 11):
Probably because where many of them come from, Islam is the law of the land, and they can't adapt to the fact that other people behave differently.

Those people need to realize they live in a world with other people, other religions, other societies... and start realizing too that what they do, may not offend people, but does make them look stupid (as if they care). The problem is, Muslims who are not "constantly getting offended", get a bad image... I'm getting tired of having my people who share the same religion, and live in the real world, be branded as "siding with the infidels" by these idiots... heck, they even try to blow us up too for it... sad world eh?
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Aesma
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:27 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 4):
Would the woman have necessarily known? Nearly the reverse discussed here....

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/48899622.html

A recent "Ethicist" column in The New York Times Magazine reveals not only the superficiality of what passes for ethical thinking today, but also the limits of multiculturalism as applied to Orthodox Jews.

A woman wrote to the "Ethicist" with the following question. Her otherwise "courteous and competent real-estate agent" refused to shake her hand after signing a brokerage contract, explaining that as an Orthodox Jew he does not touch women. The woman described herself as both "shocked and offended." But since she was a good liberal who, in addition to opposing "sex discrimination of all sorts," also "supports freedom of religious expression," she was in a quandary.

It's a mark of respect, apparently, showing that there is to be no physical contact whatsoever. A handshake could lead to all manner of illicit activities, or so the logic goes.

A ban on touching acknowledges the natural physical attraction between men and women, and serves as a warning. Those who observe the ban convey the message that "the erotic element is excluded from our relationship." Far from showing a lack of "dignity and respect" for those of the opposite gender, observance of the ban reflects a determination to treat members of the opposite sex with the utmost respect - as everything but objects of sexual desire.

Isn't the anglo-saxon world already much more touchy than the latin one about physical contact ? And nudity.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:51 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7):
Religion is a choice, therefore should be discriminated against.

  

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 9):
I hate to sound like an asshole, but it annoys the hell out of me that people who are extremely religious, expects everyone to accommodate them at every whim. And to be even more frank, it's almost always Muslims who are constantly getting offended. It's absolutely stunning.

How right you are on that point.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
I'd go into more detail on that... why is it always Muslims from a certain part of the world who are constantly getting offended... is it religion? or is it the people? If the latter, of course, these people hide behind religion all the friggin' time...

I absolutely loathe people who deliberately annoys the rest of society by using the "religion card"... may they burn in hell!


Perfectly put.


The laws in Europe seem to be way to liberal sometimes I think, and are far to accommodating to "outsiders".
They are the one's who need to understand that they need to conform to our way of life and of doing things, not the other way round which often seems to be the case nowadays.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:52 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 12):
Those people need to realize they live in a world with other people, other religions, other societies... and start realizing too that what they do, may not offend people, but does make them look stupid (as if they care). The problem is, Muslims who are not "constantly getting offended", get a bad image... I'm getting tired of having my people who share the same religion, and live in the real world, be branded as "siding with the infidels" by these idiots... heck, they even try to blow us up too for it... sad world eh?

What we call cultural diversity, they call "Westoxification."
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am

A guy who professes discriminatory religious beliefs himself has the nerve to sue an agency for being "discriminated"?
Pot calling a kettle black, anyone???

Quoting solnabo (Reply 5):
HE is the a-hole in this story.

I think we are barking on a wrong tree in this case.
It is the court who is to blame and the ruling of an activist "dhimmi" judge(s?) who totally failed to see the big picture and managed to score own goal to the rest of the secular society** and did the anti-discrimination cause only a huge disservice.

**similar to the German judge who felt domestic violence in a Muslim family is ok because Koran says so
 
mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
It is the court who is to blame and the ruling of an activist "dhimmi" judge(s?) who totally failed to see the big picture and managed to score own goal to the rest of the secular society** and did the anti-discrimination cause only a huge disservice.

**similar to the German judge who felt domestic violence in a Muslim family is ok because Koran says so

That is what's disturbing me... they awarded the claim of discrimination to a person which have discriminatory practices (and one that I believe is not founded by the reason the person put forth, which is religion)...

The German case of "domestic violence is OK in a Muslim family", is again, ludicrous.

I am worried that Europe has gone way too far in the "legally holier than thou" without the deep understanding of some issues which opens it for abuse by those whom the law is supposed to protect people from! Majority's apologism through the law is a recipe for a future pseudo-apartheid... where the law to protect the minority in effect becomes the law to oppress the majority. Sad eh?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
The laws in Europe seem to be way to liberal sometimes I think, and are far to accommodating to "outsiders".
They are the one's who need to understand that they need to conform to our way of life and of doing things, not the other way round which often seems to be the case nowadays.

Accommodating is fine and noble, if not done ignorantly... which I unfortunately think Europe has done too many times in the past (I guess for fear of regional and international shame for being branded "racist"). When accommodating outsiders, one should also see whether such action has any undesirable impact on society, either by the others, or by the one you accommodate for. One should also assess, where one would carefully draw the line of "enough accommodation, any more would be too much."

There's a phrase here "you give them a liver and they ask for a heart" to describe those who do not know the meaning of thank you. It is something that is probably valid to some Muslim immigrants in Europe. I guess, in some aspects, Europe some way to go in the field of "equitable and utilitarian tolerance"... we know it's impossible to please everyone, but the "best-est" solution should be sought... I see it as trying to please everyone (but themselves) at the moment for the sake of superficial tolerance and multiculturalism (institutional wise... the people are great!  &nbsp 

Mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:05 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
One does not choose to be born a "Muslim" or a "Jew" or a "Christian."

The word "born" is the only thing that makes that statement true. But there is such a thing as free will - an adult chooses to profess a religion, just as I choose not to eat peas.
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DocLightning
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:13 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):

The word "born" is the only thing that makes that statement true. But there is such a thing as free will - an adult chooses to profess a religion, just as I choose not to eat peas.

Well, that's my point. If you don't hire someone because they were baptized as a Jew or because they're "Jews," that shouldn't be permitted. You have no control over that.

But if you don't hire someone because his Orthodox Jewish beliefs won't allow him to work on Friday afternoon or Saturday, and you need him to work those shifts, that shouldn't be protected. And apparently it is, which ticks me off royally.
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LAXintl
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
One does not choose to be born a "Muslim" or a "Jew" or a "Christian." Your parents choose your stated religion at your birth and changing it is difficult for many reasons


  Indeed. In much of the world one is born into religion and often what is shown in official documents, and registries. Whether one chooses to practice it, or go shopping for another religion as common in the West often does not change the fact of ones born religion.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Got someone applying to an airline (a green newbie) and asked if he can be off duty during friday prayers... he was shown the door pretty quickly... the airline did the same for a christian who refused to accept duty on sundays.
I do wonder if a Muslim in Europe applying for shift work, and demanded he be free of duty on Fridays (no, he won't duty swap, he demands to be off), be shown the door... can he sue for religious discrimination? If so, and the case gets accepted and he wins, something is wrong with the legal system!


Thankfully in the US nothing is wrong with the system, and what you describe is clearly discriminatory.

Matter of fact just in December Mesaba Airlines(Northwest Airlines commuter) had a case where it would not work with and accommodate peoples religion scheduling needs.
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/12-23-09.cfm

As the US government found;
"Employees should not be forced to choose between practicing their faith and keeping or getting a job."

[Edited 2010-02-10 00:25:22]
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:29 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
As the US government found;
"Employees should not be forced to choose between practicing their faith and keeping or getting a job."

But where do you draw the line between "reasonable accomodation" of one's religious beliefs and everyone just doing as he/she pleases. Where is the responsibility of the employees-to-be. If their religious beliefs are so strong why they bother applying for a job which requires some sort of compromise when it comes to exercising religious rituals?


Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
I do wonder if a Muslim in Europe applying for shift work, and demanded he be free of duty on Fridays (no, he won't duty swap, he demands to be off), be shown the door... can he sue for religious discrimination? If so, and the case gets accepted and he wins, something is wrong with the legal system!
Muslim bus driver locks passengers aboard as he stops to pray

A Muslim bus driver knelt in the aisle to pray for five minutes leaving bemused and anxious passengers trapped in ther seats.
The driver pulled over without warning and rolled out a high-visibility jacket as a makeshift prayer mat before removing his shoes, turning to face Mecca and starting to chant in Arabic.
Passengers said they looked on in stunned silence, fearing the driver may be preparing for a terrorist attack on the bus. No one was able to get on or off the vehicle during the five-minute prayer session.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...rs-aboard-as-he-stops-to-pray.html

Truly bizarre. It will be interesting to watch if he gets away with it. The Londoners were inconvenieced yet actually lucky he's just a bus driver, not an ambulance or fire truck driver...
 
mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Matter of fact just in December Mesaba Airlines(Northwest Airlines commuter) had a case where it would not work with and accommodate peoples religion scheduling needs.
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/12-23-09.cfm

The problem is, in the Mesaba case, the company ALREADY hired the 5 persons. Mesaba also has the "no shift swap" policy. In the cases I mentioned above, the company allows shift swap, but the persons indicated they would not take shift swap when it was discussed. That's where the line was drawn, the company had accommodation provisions for those with such convictions, but the person applying indicated he would not take a duty swap, he just wants to be off during whenever he said he needs to carry out his duty as a faithful (case happened both for a Muslim and a Christian). After failing to obtain jobs (they gotta pay the bills somehow), those persons have yielded and now work (at companies where they've been shown the door before), taking duty swaps whenever they need to.

I do not see what those companies do in the cases I mentioned above as discriminatory.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
But where do you draw the line between "reasonable accomodation" of one's religious beliefs and everyone just doing as he/she pleases.

Reasonable accommodation is definitely not "OK-ing a man to commit domestic violence because in his religion (Islam) it's OK"... come on, what kind of Islam is it? In the majority of Islamic countries, domestic violence is against the law (secular law, and religious (Islamic) law).
So, reasonable accommodation mean than prior to accommodating, the side giving the accommodation should look into and determine whether or not the demands for accommodation is:
- Possible to fulfil
- Does not put society at harm/inconvenience
- Is justifiable under the reasons used to demand accommodation (eg: Does his religion actually prevent him from touching women, do others (from various backgrounds) in the same religion believe the same, or is it just his understanding or the understanding of a few within his group).

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
If their religious beliefs are so strong why they bother applying for a job which requires some sort of compromise when it comes to exercising religious rituals?

This, needs to be argued by both sides when discussing about the issue. Take a look at the case of the bus driver...

He does this where I am, he'd be imprisoned for holding people against their will. His defence of being religious would not work, because the law here understands that one can delay prayers whilst performing one's duty (especially where service and safety is involved)... and I'm talking about a predominantly Muslim country.

There was a row in neighbouring Malaysia a while back when a photo circulated of a veiled Muslim girl studying to be a vet, was holding a pig. Whilst the uninformed demanded that Muslim girls studying to become a vet should be exempt from the pigs, the religious scholars in the end stated that it was permissible, and that using excuses of religion for one to be exempt from touching/treating the pig, is unreasonable.

Going back to the case in this topic, and the "excusable under religion" domestic violence case in Germany, did they really look into whether the religions claim is valid or not? And if not, was it cultural? Then decide if some cultural habits and traditions from other parts of the world be accepted. ie: separation of culture and tradition from the religion itself, as many claims of religious discrimination may have stemmed from the fusion of culture, tradition and religion...
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Going back to the case in this topic, and the "excusable under religion" domestic violence case in Germany, did they really look into whether the religions claim is valid or not? And if not, was it cultural? Then decide if some cultural habits and traditions from other parts of the world be accepted. ie: separation of culture and tradition from the religion itself, as many claims of religious discrimination may have stemmed from the fusion of culture, tradition and religion...

To the German case, which BTW has disgusted most Germans and was strongly critizised by German Muslims.
In Germany judges are usually (depending on the state) appointed by a judicary board and have the job for life (unless they commit some serious sins, like committing crimes themselves), this was done to keep them independent from outside pressures.
One basic principle of the German penal system is that the accused had to understand at the time when he committed the crime, that he was breaking the law and doing wrong.
Now some judges interpreted the cultural background of criminals especially in honour killing and domestic violence cases, that the person, having grown up in a culture where tribal (NOT RELIGIOUS!!!) traditions permit or demand such deeds would not understand that he was doing wrong. This was applied to heads of families, who ruled their families like feudal lords, with power of life and death and in who´se opinion it was a loss of honour if the family members were not showing total obedeyance, which they interpreted as "respect".
Unfortunately many of the German left (and this BTW even includes radical feminists!) accept behaviour from members of other, non-western, cultures, which they wouldn´t accept from locals.
I think that part of it comes from the overemphasition of German culture being suprior to all others by the Nazis to the extend of having tried to exterminate any different cultures and peoples and the wish of the modern to be different. I think the judges in these controversial cases are part of this movement.

I reacently read an interesting letter to the editor in the Spiegel magazine. There somebody suggested to print the first, permanent, articles of the German constitution, basically our Bill of Rights, on posters and to hang them in every school classroom.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:51 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Reasonable accommodation is definitely not "OK-ing a man to commit domestic violence because in his religion (Islam) it's OK"... come on, what kind of Islam is it?

What I meant was "accomodation" on a workplace. People choose themselves what job they apply for, just as they choose how strictly they will or will not observe rituals and adhere to dogmas of their respective religion. BTW, what happened to professionalism and common sense?
He is certainly not the only muslim bus driver in London or those Mesaba guys the only jewish airport agents in the US and making a precedent by "accomodating" the most extreme ones seems like a start of a very slippery slope, where the end might be a case with judge having to decide what is the supreme interest, whether one's individual religious rituals or a need to get a patient to hospital asap or report to a crime scene, or a fire, etc.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
He does this where I am, he'd be imprisoned for holding people against their will. His defence of being religious would not work, because the law here understands that one can delay prayers whilst performing one's duty (especially where service and safety is involved)... and I'm talking about a predominantly Muslim country.

Not that I paid any special attention to it, but during my visits to predominantly muslim countries I do not recall seeing a public transport coming to a standstill at certain hour of the day and drivers praying en masse in the middle of the road.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
One basic principle of the German penal system is that the accused had to understand at the time when he committed the crime, that he was breaking the law and doing wrong.

How does this principle interact with another basic principle of (not only) continental law which has been part of most European jurisprudences since the Romans, that is "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat" , i.e. presumed knowledge of the law?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:15 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
One basic principle of the German penal system is that the accused had to understand at the time when he committed the crime, that he was breaking the law and doing wrong.

How does this principle interact with another basic principle of (not only) continental law which has been part of most European jurisprudences since the Romans, that is "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat" , i.e. presumed knowledge of the law?

I think the ointerpretation by these judges was that in these cases they would sentence the culprit not to maximum for murder (life), but instead for manslaugther. Also, in many recent cases the below legal age brothers of the victim were ordered by the family head (often involving women as well, like "if you don´t punish your daughter you don´t have honour and I´m going to make your life miserable!"), because then they would be sentenced under juvenile law, which has a maximum punishment of 10 years instead of life. But for the last few years several judges have been issuing maximum sentences and got the instigators as well for conspiracy to murder, which also can carry life in prison.

A similarity can be seen in the lenient treatment of Nazi skinheads in the early 1990s. Often their crimes were excused as "stupid things dione by drunken teenagers", which encouraged them to kill more foreigners, but after a few judges and prosecutors went all the way and got them sentenced to life in prison the number of neo-BNazi attacks suddenly dropped.
IMO, all involved in a honour killing should go to jail, with maximum sentences issued to the killer and the instigators.
We have laws here, which must be obeyed by everybody living here. There is no place for seperate society with it´s own laws.

Jan
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LAXintl
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:35 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
But where do you draw the line between "reasonable accomodation" of one's religious beliefs and everyone just doing as he/she pleases.


Well in the Mesaba case there was a legal opinion written about that. In short summary a company must "reasonably accommodate an employee whose sincerely held religious beliefs or observances conflicts with a work requirement, unless it would create an undue hardship."

The decision further defined discussed what undue hardship was, and determined that it was "significant difficulty or expense", and the burden of proof for this was solely of the company to prove this.
In this specific case, Mesaba with wide scope of operations and staffing it could easily accommodate the needs of the plaintiff to observe the sabbath without incurring undue hardship.

During this case litigation, it also came to light that 4 Christian applicants for customer service agent positions were rejected during interviews because their stated a desire for shifts that would not conflict with Sunday church services. Mesaba subsequently settled those cases also.

Ultimately the religious protections are in place in the US are primarily enshrined in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, where Employers, both public and private(except religious organizations which are exempted), are prohibited from: refusing to hire, discharging, or otherwise discriminating against employees based on their religious beliefs (defined as- All aspects of religious observance and practice as well as belief.) as related to the terms and conditions of their employment. In addition many states have further local similar statues.

But the decision in the Mesaba case is not unique -- Here are some more recent cases where the religious practice of employees were held up against companies.
- Muslim employees religious beliefs that preclude them from handling pork products in a food processing plant.
- Forcing employee having Sanskrit-scripture tattoos on hands and arms to cover up.
- Jehovahs witness refusing to sing Happy Birthday at customers table in a restaurant as they are forbidden from celebrating or singing.
- Not allowing employees of Muslim faith to use hospital shower area for engaging in ablution(ceremonial practice wash feet, hands, and forehead)
- Nursing home employee told to remove her Hijab when in public.
- Auto Repair shop requiring employees to be "clean shaven" and technicians refuses to shave or cut their hair because of religious beliefs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
777236ER
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:33 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Not by the government. Should the government punish you depending on your opinions? Opinions are choices too.

No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:36 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.

Maybe in Europe, not allowed to in the US.

For being so opened minded, Europe sure is aggressively intolerant of different cultural groups. Sad.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
slider
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Again, it's a bunch of bullcrap. At no point in Torah or Talmud is this actually stated. It's something that Chassidic Jews have made up, much like their idolatrous worship of various Rebbis and their patently absurd decisions on Kosher laws.

Nowhere is Islamic doctrine is there any prohibition on a woman being covered up nor a directive for a man to not have contact with.

I hate to keep saying "I told you so" but I predicated it wouldn't be but a week before some NEW story rose about the subjugation and mistreatment of women by Muslims.

Once again, I'm right. And it doesn't take a long limb to go out on about this either. Cue angry reaction in 3, 2, 1....
 
PPVRA
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.

They should punish you for any coercive actions you initiate. Anything else, even if ethically reprehensible, should not be punished.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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solnabo
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:16 am

Quoting newark777 (Reply 28):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.

Maybe in Europe, not allowed to in the US.

For being so opened minded, Europe sure is aggressively intolerant of different cultural groups. Sad.

Becouse Americans are all colonials, exept natives.

Wrong or right?
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photopilot
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:01 am

You know, I'm friends with an HR Manager at a large firm. Over beers one night he told me that he won't even call for an interview with a person with an obvious "foreign" sounding name. The reason, is because far too many times even if the candidate is not suitable for the job, if he doesn't hire them they scream "discrimination" and cause him and his company endless grief. So he tries to forestall the problems by only calling WASP sounding names. Not fair really, but it's tough to really say I blame him.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:03 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):


As the US government found;
"Employees should not be forced to choose between practicing their faith and keeping or getting a job."

And I disagree with that. In a situation where the practice of the faith interferes significantly with job function, then guess what?

Sorry, but there's no reasonable cut-off. If I run around all the time using office photocopiers to photocopy my religious handouts and tomes and stuff my coworkers' mailboxes with them, should I get away with that because my faith demands that I proselytize?

As it happens, my residency program has a policy of not having a special "Shabbat Schedule" for Orthotox Jewish residents because to do so places an unfair burden on those not practicing that religion. The history is that, in fact, one applicant DID sue and lost the case because it was demonstrated that such a schedule does place an undue hardship on the other residents.

Personally, I believe that religious PRACTICE should deserve absolutely no protection whatsoever. That is completely voluntary. Companies should make reasonable accommodations because if they do not then they will get bad press, not because of an excess of absurd laws protecting behavior that would be completely unacceptable if it weren't for the excuse of "it's my religion!"
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:38 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 32):
You know, I'm friends with an HR Manager at a large firm. Over beers one night he told me that he won't even call for an interview with a person with an obvious "foreign" sounding name. The reason, is because far too many times even if the candidate is not suitable for the job, if he doesn't hire them they scream "discrimination" and cause him and his company endless grief. So he tries to forestall the problems by only calling WASP sounding names. Not fair really, but it's tough to really say I blame him.

Yes, it's sad that it has come to this but I have actually heard something similar to this before. Its just not worth the grief !

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
I believe that religious PRACTICE should deserve absolutely no protection whatsoever.

Yes again, when it come's to it I totally, your job is your job and if it starts to encroach upon it the the religious part needs to stop. Job first them religion after !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
LAXintl
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:49 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 32):
So he tries to forestall the problems by only calling WASP sounding names. Not fair really, but it's tough to really say I blame him.


Well hopefully your friend will end up in some hot water of his shameful practices.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
And I disagree with that


I know your open disdain for religion, however I would have figured in someway you would be able to put those wishing to practice their faith in the same boat as other minorities, or groups for which you so strongly argue.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 34):
Job first them religion after !


Sure a job come first, however not at infringing on peoples basic rights to continue practice their religion. There clearly needs to be accommodation.
By the same token then lets not hire underprivileged folks, ex cons, mentally challenged, handicaps, or any other potentially burdensome group in society for any job position then.

The world is not a black/white place where you can turn religion on/off at the door of the office. Religion is the people, and people are the religion.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:55 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 32):
You know, I'm friends with an HR Manager at a large firm. Over beers one night he told me that he won't even call for an interview with a person with an obvious "foreign" sounding name. The reason, is because far too many times even if the candidate is not suitable for the job, if he doesn't hire them they scream "discrimination" and cause him and his company endless grief. So he tries to forestall the problems by only calling WASP sounding names. Not fair really, but it's tough to really say I blame him
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
Well hopefully your friend will end up in some hot water of his shameful practices.

It happens a lot more than you imagine. In this competitive job environment, the flexibility is there to pick and choose who you want, and with every story you hear about discrimination being cited, it'll reinforce the practice.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:59 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
Sure a job come first, however not at infringing on peoples basic rights to continue practice their religion. There clearly needs to be accommodation.
By the same token then lets not hire underprivileged folks, ex cons, mentally challenged, handicaps, or any other potentially burdensome group in society for any job position then.

Religion is a choice, so is working a particular job. No one is forcing you to practice your chosen religion, its up to you. But you can't expect employers to bend over backward just to accommodate your religious needs at his expense, is that fair?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
The world is not a black/white place where you can turn religion on/off at the door of the office. Religion is the people, and people are the religion.

What, of course you can turn it off. why the hell not ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
LAXintl
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:51 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
But you can't expect employers to bend over backward just to accommodate your religious needs at his expense, is that fair?


Maybe not "bend over backwards", but yes I absolutely would expect them to reasonably accommodate an employees religious beliefs or observances as the law provides.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
What, of course you can turn it off. why the hell not ?


I don't know about you, but most cant become equivalent of an atheist when walking from one room to another.

Whether or how one choose to practice and observe any religious beliefs is not something just switched like a light bulb.. Its either with you and you practice and observe your religions or not regardless of the setting.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:13 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
Whether or how one choose to practice and observe any religious beliefs is not something just switched like a light bulb.. Its either with you and you practice and observe your religions or not regardless of the setting.

I beg to differ.

If I employ someone I want then to do a job in the hours that I'm paying them, Why should I have to give concessions to an employee who want's to pray, worship,etc whatever it is that you want to call it, they should do it in their time.

Why should I, when I'm employing him in my time, after all he is there to do a job, not skulk off and be doing something else, whether it be something religious or not.

Why should the religious person expect others to make way for their beliefs ? I don't and nor should I.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
777236ER
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:31 am

Quoting newark777 (Reply 28):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.

Maybe in Europe, not allowed to in the US

So you wouldn't prosecute the 9/11 attackers? It's amazing you want it to be illegal to prosecute people based on their religiously-motivated actions, however illegal and reprehensible they are.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
LAXintl
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:43 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
So you wouldn't prosecute the 9/11 attackers? It's amazing you want it to be illegal to prosecute people based on their religiously-motivated actions, however illegal and reprehensible they are.

The 9/11 attackers, or plotters can be prosecuted because of their terroristic actions, not because of their religion.
Terrorism, its incitement, or hate speech is a crime regardless of religion.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:38 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
So you wouldn't prosecute the 9/11 attackers? It's amazing you want it to be illegal to prosecute people based on their religiously-motivated actions, however illegal and reprehensible they are.

What rubbish.

What a silly thing to say !

Their actions are terrorist related, nothing else. Not religious!

Why wouldn't you prosecute for that.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
777236ER
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:06 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 42):
Their actions are terrorist related, nothing else. Not religious!

Wrong. Their actions were clearly motivated by religion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41):
The 9/11 attackers, or plotters can be prosecuted because of their terroristic actions, not because of their religion.

Their actions were motivated by religion. My entire point was that when religious actions become illegal they should not be accepted. So nonsense like this:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 28):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
No. The government should punish you based on your actions, including religious actions.

Maybe in Europe, not allowed to in the US.

is just plain wrong.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:04 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
So you wouldn't prosecute the 9/11 attackers? It's amazing you want it to be illegal to prosecute people based on their religiously-motivated actions, however illegal and reprehensible they are.

Well, I certainly wouldn't prosecute them based on their beliefs. Just their actions.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 43):
is just plain wrong.

It's not wrong, since we have a Constitution that defends the right to practice your religion. This right ends where it begins infringing on the rights of other, e.g. terrorism.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 43):
Wrong. Their actions were clearly motivated by religion.

It doesn't matter what motivates the actions. Just the actions themselves.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:13 am

Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
Well, I certainly wouldn't prosecute them based on their beliefs. Just their actions.

My sentiments exactly.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
It's not wrong, since we have a Constitution that defends the right to practice your religion. This right ends where it begins infringing on the rights of other, e.g. terrorism.

Absolutely   



Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
It doesn't matter what motivates the actions. Just the actions themselves.

Again, your right on the mark.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:31 am

Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
Well, I certainly wouldn't prosecute them based on their beliefs. Just their actions.

What's the difference from me firing you because you refused to show up to work due to a religious function? I didn't fire you because of your religion, I fired you because of your action, which was not showing up to work.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
This right ends where it begins infringing on the rights of other

Isn't expecting co-workers to take on your workload in order to accommodate your religion infringing on their rights?

Quoting newark777 (Reply 44):
It doesn't matter what motivates the actions. Just the actions themselves.

If it's just actions and not motivations, then why does it matter if religion is the reason you failed to show up to work?
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
Newark777
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 46):

Where did you get the impression that I cared about how this was applied to the workplace? If your religion interferes with your ability to perform your job, it's obviously not a job for you.

Let's take a step back and take a breath.  
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
mandala499
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:57 am

Quoting newark777 (Reply 47):
If your religion interferes with your ability to perform your job, it's obviously not a job for you.

But then, if the companies don't hire you, they can get sued...

Lovely world   Keeps places like this busy!   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Job Agency Fined For Religious Discrimination

Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:00 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 48):
But then, if the companies don't hire you, they can get sued...

Companies need to be a little more clever in the reasons they give not to hire these sorts of people in the first place.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”

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