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Jetsgo
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So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:33 am

A little background info:

In 2008, I moved up to Reno, Nevada. Upon moving up here, I decided it would be beneficial to purchase a vehicle with all wheel drive. At the time, I drove a 2006 Ford Taurus which was payed off. So I purchased a 2008 Ford Fusion with all wheel drive. However, it has occurred to me that the $260 monthly payment is no longer worth it in my eyes. The past two winters, I have only really needed the all wheel drive a couple of times. So, for every month I paid $260, I could have saved that and just rented a 4x4, purchased snow tires, or just dealt with the hassle of chains. In addition to that, I've been getting around 17 mpg since most of my driving is to and from work, which is an in-town drive. Maybe I was spoiled owning my previous car, but I just can't seem to justify the cost of driving my Fusion any further. Being so, I have had my eyes open lately for some good deals, and one may just fit the bill...

Honda is offering a new lease special on the Insight. 36 months 36,000 miles for $219 a month. Furthermore, they are making your first payment and only require about ~ $300 down. It's only a $40/month savings, but the gas mileage around down is estimated at 40 mpg. More than double what I currently get. Since I'm still living on a budget, this is extremely appealing to me.

However, I've never been one to give two shits about a hybrid. In fact, I simply love the Jetta TDi. I've always had more interest in diesels than hybrids. I also don't really care for the reputation that comes with owning one, simply because I wouldn't fall into that category. It will also be a tough adjustment going from two V6 vehicles to a little hybrid.

Lastly, for reference, I owe right about what the Fusion is worth, so I worry that this may be a good chance to get away from it before I go underneath with the depreciation and all.

So, wonderful and enlightened a.net members, (even you LOT) what say you about this situation? I'm all ears.
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jetfuel
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:38 am

I am very fond of turbo diesels. I am not sure what is available there but I would test drive a few cars FIRST. I think you might find the insight boring?
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
hoons90
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:52 am

I drive a 2010 Insight that I have had since August of 2009, and I haven't had any significant problems with it. I'm impressed with the mileage (around 41mpg-ish), which can be improved even further with the Econ mode. You don't have to spend too much filling it up, and once you do, it will take you very far. The downsides are that some of the parts might be rather expensive (remember that the Insight isn't as ubiquitous as the Civic) and also that it has an annoyingly large blind spot.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:15 am

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):

Honda is offering a new lease special on the Insight. 36 months 36,000 miles for $219 a month. Furthermore, they are making your first payment and only require about ~ $300 down. It's only a $40/month savings, but the gas mileage around down is estimated at 40 mpg. More than double what I currently get. Since I'm still living on a budget, this is extremely appealing to me.

You will be floored at the fuel savings. I have a 2010 Prius and I commute 40 miles to work every day. I fill my tank once weekly. That's it. $30/wk. My average mileage is 45-49MPG. It does fall off on city driving if you have a lot of stop-and-go, contrary to what it's "supposed" to do.

As far as the "reputation," I drive a 4-door sedan that uses about 40% of the fuel of other cars in its size. If you want to judge me for that, you can blow it out of whichever orifice you like.

Power both is and isn't an issue. The electric start motor gives you some good movement off the line, although you get a "kick" about 0.5s later once the gas engine starts up. I'm renting a Ford Escape right now for a trip to Tahoe (non-hybrid) and there's a much worse delay than that off the line on that car.

The downside is the maintenance. It's got to be done at an authorized place, and those can be hard to find. Hybrids are hideously complex and the maintenance is more expensive than it is for a regular car. However, I calculate that the fuel savings more than make up for it.
-Doc Lightning-

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Jetsgo
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:27 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 1):
I am very fond of turbo diesels.

  

However, VW seems to be ripping off the Reno market. For example, a simple Golf TDI they want roughly 28k. Can't imagine what the Jetta would be...if they even had one. Probably not as good a deal as the Insight.  
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 1):
I think you might find the insight boring?

Very concerned about that. However, living on a budget I feel my priorities should maybe be more in line?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
As far as the "reputation," I drive a 4-door sedan that uses about 40% of the fuel of other cars in its size. If you want to judge me for that, you can blow it out of whichever orifice you like.

I'm going more towards the slow and generally stupid driver. Not accusing you of that, but I can't tell you how many dangerous hybrid drivers I've run into. Extremely frustrating.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Power both is and isn't an issue. The electric start motor gives you some good movement off the line, although you get a "kick" about 0.5s later once the gas engine starts up.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure it won't touch the power of my Fusion, so it will be an adjustment.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The downside is the maintenance. It's got to be done at an authorized place, and those can be hard to find.

Are we talking just normal service intervals? How much are they typically and how often? Also, you mention authorized places are hard to find...are not all Honda dealers authorized?
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:13 am

Oh dear god. Hehe.

Points which are apparent:

-You only need to go from A to B.
-You dont care about the car as long as it gets you there.

To tell you the truth I really dont know your budget or what you do and can afford. Ive never leased a car before and always pay cash. I never keep my cars stock and dont like the constraints of any kind of lease and like to have the title in my hand.

Im not a fan of anything that doesnt have AWD in the regular car segment unless you only drive it in the summer time. IMHO you cant put a price on safety and ability in every kind of weather.

I fail to understand your logic, no matter what car it is. Why not buy a used car, save money and not overpay and make some payments and own it outright. Instead of constantly making lease payments.

I wont talk about power as a car like that only has power to a person that hasnt driven a car with normal power. No matter what catchy phrase you use or do will not defy the physics of a small motor. Ever since my ex-gf couldnt avoid a major rear-end collision in her Civic in High School because she didnt have enough power to get away when she was trying with me as a witness my philosophy completely changed on the cost benefit of having decent specs.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
You will be floored at the fuel savings. I have a 2010 Prius and I commute 40 miles to work every day. I fill my tank once weekly. That's it. $30/wk. My average mileage is 45-49MPG. It does fall off on city driving if you have a lot of stop-and-go, contrary to what it's "supposed" to do.

As far as the "reputation," I drive a 4-door sedan that uses about 40% of the fuel of other cars in its size. If you want to judge me for that, you can blow it out of whichever orifice you like.

Yes, im really not sure what you are talking about here as any decent Diesel will get better mileage than a Prius.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
Are we talking just normal service intervals? How much are they typically and how often? Also, you mention authorized places are hard to find...are not all Honda dealers authorized?

A dealer by definition is always authorized as they are under the manufacturer umbrella. He is talking about Honda authorized non-dealer centers. What he means is you cant just stroll into Joes 4x4 where labor is 1/2 price of a ripoff dealer.

You are either debating this because you are short on money and you barely drive, or you are debating this because you are plain stupid. From what it sounds like its the 1st option, if its the 1st option I think you should probably give up the Fusion if you are short on cash and NOTHING else matters.

Over 3 years youd spend about $5400 @ 20mpg for gas in the Fusion with 36k miles (thats a low estimate).
Over 3 years youd spend about $2700 @ 40mpg for gas in the Insight with 36k miles.

Over 3 years youd spend about $9360 @ 36 x 260 for a Fusion
Over 3 years youd spend about $8000 @ 35 x 220 + 300 for an Insight.

Figure about a $4000 difference over the period of 3 years, or about $1330 per year of difference. This however is assuming nothing goes wrong with the Insight which has a proprietary Hybrid drive and you cant just go fixing it anywhere but at an Authorized center.

Everyone buys cars on some criteria which is more important than any other. For me I dont care about MPG at all. But I take sacrifices at the pump and with even regular maintenance. Look at how much yearly maintenance I have to do in a SUV where I put in around 30k yearly (and I do almost all the labor myself) but lets assume the average joe doesnt know how to or hasnt the time to do it.

Champion Copper Spark Plugs + labor -> 16 @ 2.20 + $120 in labor = $135
5 Quarts of 75W140 Full Synthetic Gear Oil front and rear differentials + labor -> $60 oil + $140 labor = $200
8OZ (2x4OZ) LSD Friction Modifier bottles only Mopar -> $18
NV245 Transfer Case Oil only Mopar + Labor -> $70
Set of 4 Hankook Dynapro ATM RF10 or BFG MT tires per year -> $600
Oil Change 5W20 only, synthetic, Mobil1 @ 7.5QTS + change -> 70 x 6 per year = $420
Coolant Flush (1 per year as I tow), only takes HOAT, Valvoline Zerex G-05 15QTS + labor = $140
ATF change per 2 years (tow schedule), ATF+4 @ 7qts + labor -> $220 / 2 years = $110 per year
Brakes change per 12 months (ceramics pads, slotted/drilled rotors + labor at Mexicans or Polaks for cash not tax) -> $500
Shocks, Bilstein B6/HD x 4 every 2 years = $350 + $120 labor = $470 / 2 years = $285

Thats probably some $2300-$2500 I do in scheduled maintenance in a SUV just to keep it in good shape if nothing goes wrong, which it doesnt because its a Yank tank and if it does I fix it myself anyways. I do most of that myself except from the front diff and shocks because I dont have a special key and spring load for it but figure about $2000 or so just for necessary oil and parts. Nevermind the fact that I average 13-14mpg highway city.

Point im trying to make is that most people would cry if they had to buy around $2000 worth of various oils, plugs, shocks etc for their car per year but for me that is a small price to pay as I cant be screwing around with a bunch of uncapable idiotic crap that some dumbass Honda dealer is trying to shove down my throat.

Either you have a car, or you have a soul-less appliance, you cant have both JetsGo. Even with a diesel you have alternate costs, I have one of those too so I know, youve got expensive oil changes, youve got ultra expensive glow plugs that like to go to the crapper when it gets really cold etc.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:37 am

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):
I owe right about what the Fusion is worth, so I worry that this may be a good chance to get away from it before I go underneath with the depreciation and all.

OK, so you have too high of a payment and don't need all-wheel drive. How about a new Ford Fiesta? Low cost, high mileage (about 40 mpg highway) and front-wheel drive. Or a Honda Fit if a five-door hatchback is fine with you? Or maybe even a Fusion Hybrid sedan if you like your current Fusion enough and you can work out a deal with the local Ford dealership?
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:37 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 6):
OK, so you have too high of a payment and don't need all-wheel drive. How about a new Ford Fiesta? Low cost, high mileage (about 40 mpg highway) and front-wheel drive. Or a Honda Fit if a five-door hatchback is fine with you? Or maybe even a Fusion Hybrid sedan if you like your current Fusion enough and you can work out a deal with the local Ford dealership?

How about he just waits till say next summer and gets the new 2012 Focus. No more US specific frame but full Global frame-same-as-in-Europe. Great quality, probably a great price and great economics.

Wont have to sacrifice your balls and you wont be beaten by a garbage truck at the light either. A win win situation.
 
kappel
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:08 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 7):
Wont have to sacrifice your balls and you wont be beaten by a garbage truck at the light either. A win win situation

Haha, not a big fan of hybrids either. I have a Citroen C4 diesel (about the size of a Golf, ever so slightly bigger though) that gives me at least 18 km for every litre, which is about 42mpg. And it has plenty of power too (110 hp) for that frame. I also prefer diesel. And none of the expensive proprietary parts as in hybrids.

And my mileage comes from mostly commuter traffice with plenty of traffice jams that wreac havoc on your mileage. On longer drives, I easily get 47 mpg.

PSA diesel engines are known to be very good and very economical.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:21 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 8):
And it has plenty of power too (110 hp) for that frame. I also prefer diesel. And none of the expensive proprietary parts as in hybrids.

You must understand that Diesel fuel is generally more expensive in the USA. Also, a C4 Diesel (unless you get a top of the line one) with a 10.4s sprint to 100kmh and 110hp is weaker and slower than a Prius.

Thirdly the hybrid systems are usually on some long warranty whereas the diesels are not. If something goes kaput in a diesel you are pretty much F'ed beyond belief in your wallet. For example those batteries in California are under warranty for something like 10 years / 150k miles.

Personally id take a Diesel, hell nevermind that, I have a diesel in Europe. That being said, its got the most annoying turbo lag ever (idiotic Italian design) and its being replaced.
 
kappel
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:31 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
You must understand that Diesel fuel is generally more expensive in the USA.

True, I noticed that. Whereas over here, it's much cheaper (or less expensive) than regular.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
with a 10.4s sprint to 100kmh and 110hp is weaker and slower than a Prius

The tests I read have them on par with each other. I don't have a top of the line (I have the Berline mind you, not a Picasso), but a 1.6litre engine.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
its got the most annoying turbo lag ever

Thankfully I don't have that problem.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
N1120A
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:41 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
It does fall off on city driving if you have a lot of stop-and-go, contrary to what it's "supposed" to do.

That's weird. You should have it looked at.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure it won't touch the power of my Fusion, so it will be an adjustment.

Different aspects of cars make them fun to drive. The Insight will probably handle better in the dry, so take advantage.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):
Figure about a $4000 difference over the period of 3 years, or about $1330 per year of difference. This however is assuming nothing goes wrong with the Insight which has a proprietary Hybrid drive and you cant just go fixing it anywhere but at an Authorized center.

Moot point. Car is a 3 year lease and will be maintained under warranty.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):

You must understand that Diesel fuel is generally more expensive in the USA

The difference has flattened again. Definitely not like a year or two ago.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Moot point. Car is a 3 year lease and will be maintained under warranty.

Reza WTH, I said regular maintenance not warranty covered problems.

Is it a figment of my imagination or arent you even charged for worn tires if you return them as such?

You believe that if you lease a car with a diff that needs a diff oil change every year and you dont do one after 3 years, return it, the diff whines, they open it up and its got the coloration of a tar pit they wont charge you for it?

Comeon man im not talking about blown ECUs here.

BTW, dont ever use the word moot again...you sound like a Prius driver trying to talk me into buying a pile of garbage. 
Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
The difference has flattened again. Definitely not like a year or two ago.

How do you know where gas prices will be in 1 year, 2 years or 3 years. Weve gone from 30 oil to 140 oil back down to 30 oil and up to 80 oil.
 
N1120A
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:10 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 12):
I said regular maintenance not warranty covered problems.

Scheduled MX on the Insight is relatively minor. Also, they have a 1/12,000 warranty for wear parts.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 12):

Is it a figment of my imagination or arent you even charged for worn tires if you return them as such?

That is a figment of your imagination.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 12):

BTW, dont ever use the word moot again...you sound like a Prius driver trying to talk me into buying a pile of garbage.

No need to talk you into buying a pile of garbage. You already own American cars.  
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
That is a figment of your imagination.

Perhaps you can clue me in about this:

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto...ing-your-car-lease-gracefully.aspx

Tire wear is particularly important. Don't bring the car in with less than one-eighth of an inch of tread, or with mismatched tires. If you do, you'll find yourself charged for a new set of tires.

http://www.fordcredit.com/redcarpetlease/rcl_lep_wear_use.jhtml

http://www.hondafinancialservices.com/pdf/Damage_Card.pdf

I'm not an English expert but I believe what it says there is that if you have worn tires: Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
No need to talk you into buying a pile of garbage. You already own American cars.

1. My cars were made under Daimler ownership, I have quality German electronics. (Not really, the Siemens trigger sensors for example are the biggest pain ever known to mankind)
2. Ill take my pile of garbage over that pile of garbage. Anyday, anytime, anywhere.
3. You laugh now, but its the BMW owners that I pull out of snowed out ditches that sing a different song.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Scheduled MX on the Insight is relatively minor. Also, they have a 1/12,000 warranty for wear parts.

So why buy that when isnt it Ford that has a 2 year / 24k scheduled maintenance plan?
 
asuflyer05
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:21 pm

Just make sure you're okay with no cruise control or stability control.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:25 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):
Ive never leased a car before and always pay cash.

Neither have I. I'm considering it though because honestly I'd like to be in a new car every few years.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):
Instead of constantly making lease payments.

I should've clarified earlier. I don't exactly mind paying monthly for a car... as long as I enjoy it and get some kind of value or satisfaction out of it. My Fusion sucks gas and only delivers mild performance in doing so. To me, that is a waste.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):
What he means is you cant just stroll into Joes 4x4 where labor is 1/2 price of a ripoff dealer

I figured, however I would never take my car to one of those places either.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):
From what it sounds like its the 1st option, if its the 1st option I think you should probably give up the Fusion if you are short on cash and NOTHING else matters.

Again, it's not so much that I am short on cash, just more that I don't see the value anymore. To me, my Fusion is not worth $260/month and 17 mpg. I feel that a) I can go cheap with the Insight or at least b) have more of a car for the same price. As you can see by this thread, I'm leaning towards a.

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 15):
Just make sure you're okay with no cruise control or stability control.

The EX version has cruise control and traction control. The LX is just too cheap.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:36 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

Hey Doc, as a fellow long-commuter, I'd be interested in knowing--have you asked anyone or heard anything specifically about the battery life in your Prius? How long do you envision keeping it (i.e., how many miles do you think you'll rack up on it before you're done)?

The longevity issue is important to me, and I'm leery of switching to a hybrid in light of current battery technology. My TSX is a year and a half old and I've clocked over 70,000 miles in it. Buying a new car every 100k miles would get expensive after awhile. As it is, I average 32mpg in my four-banger 200hp conventional car, which isn't bad--though it takes premium gas. I'd hate to have to replace the massively expensive battery pack in a hybrid even once while owning the car, I think...

Although if the tech is pretty rugged, a Tesla Model S in a few years with the 300-mile battery pack would be more than sufficient....  
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:07 am

So for the record, I ended up purchasing a 2010 Honda Civic EX sedan. I just wasn't ready for the Insight/hybrid thing. Got a great deal on it, love it so far. Pictures to follow...
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
dw747400
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:49 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 18):
I ended up purchasing a 2010 Honda Civic EX sedan.

Congrats. A good choice, especially if you got a sweet deal! Overall costs of ownership will probably be on par with a Prius, but without giving up your manhood...

In all seriousness, though I'm hardly an environmentalist, I see that a hybrid makes lots of sense for some people. Having rented them a few times I'm not a fan, but some Prius drivers are shrewd consumers. Sadly, they often get lumped in with very vocal left-wing wacko drive a hybrid or die crowd...
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:50 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 18):
So for the record, I ended up purchasing a 2010 Honda Civic EX sedan.

Oh god. I drove a Civic Si extensively and it was ghastly, can't imagine the vanilla version to be any better. The door makes a nasty "twang" sound when you close it and the rear spoiler rattled in the slightest bumps. To add insult to injury, has no balls and pathetic handling. And this is a "sporty car"  

But with that being said...

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 18):
Got a great deal on it, love it so far.

At least if floats your boat. That's what matters in the end.


PS: Should've gone for a Jetta TDI!!!    
 
BMI727
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:12 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 1):
I think you might find the insight boring?

If you don't find the Insight (or any Toyota for that matter) boring, there may be something wrong with you.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
You must understand that Diesel fuel is generally more expensive in the USA.

That is true, but of course the savings make up for it. It may also be a bit hard to find (but seems to be getting better), especially in cities, so look around your neighborhood if you consider buying one.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
. You laugh now, but its the BMW owners that I pull out of snowed out ditches that sing a different song.

That is a problem with the driver, not the car.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:22 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):

That is true, but of course the savings make up for it. It may also be a bit hard to find (but seems to be getting better), especially in cities, so look around your neighborhood if you consider buying one.

No, it doesnt because the price usually negates the higher MPG.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
That is a problem with the driver, not the car.

No, its not. Even the best driver cant make up for the crap X-Drive system. Youve got no 100% torque split to any one wheel, front or rear or left or right side and you have no locker or E-Lockers/ELSDs. You dont even have any center locking diff (read x-fer case with a decent low range).

Dont blame the driver for the craptastic X-Drive system which is blown out of the water by any decent SUV or Pickup 4x4 system.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 18):
So for the record, I ended up purchasing a 2010 Honda Civic EX sedan. I just wasn't ready for the Insight/hybrid thing. Got a great deal on it, love it so far. Pictures to follow...

I wanted to be friends but we just cant be so anymore.   

We dont want your photos   

Hehe
 
BMI727
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:31 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 22):
No, it doesnt because the price usually negates the higher MPG.

The price difference fluctuates, and I haven't noted it in a while. Either way I don't want a half ton of batteries in my car.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 22):
Youve got no 100% torque split to any one wheel, front or rear or left or right side and you have no locker or E-Lockers/ELSDs. You dont even have any center locking diff (read x-fer case with a decent low range).

Plenty of people don't have any of this and do just fine. Not all four wheel drive systems are created equally, but having a good one is certainly not a prerequisite to driving safely in the winter time. An idiot with AWD (good or bad) is still an idiot.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:11 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Plenty of people don't have any of this and do just fine. Not all four wheel drive systems are created equally, but having a good one is certainly not a prerequisite to driving safely in the winter time. An idiot with AWD (good or bad) is still an idiot.

What does this have to do with anything? All I said is I pull people with shitty AWD/4WD systems out of ditches. Theres a certain point where you can be the best driver in the world but if you have no decent 4x4 system youre in deep manure in bad weather. Skills only get you half way, your equipment gets you the other half.

Quit making excuses that BMW has garbage 4x4 systems, it aint your fault or my fault BMW decided to equip its cars with 4x4 systems that are outdone by a $25k Jeep Liberty with a Selec Trac II. You dont have to be off-roading for X-Drive to fail you, the system will do you no good even if one side of your car leaves the pavement and the other half is on a snowy road and more weight of your car is off the pavement.

Plenty of people have this problem, when there are snowstorms here or Im on a weekend in WI or MN I winch out and strap out probably 4-5 people per day outside of major cities where the plows dont come every 10 minutes. About 80-90% of them are in AWD crossovers or luxury SUVs who think they can go sing Kumbaya even with snow tires in shitty On-demand AWD that cant even transfer anywhere near close to 100% torque from side to side or front to rear. Nevermind locking or going into a 2.72:1 or whatever not you might have in a decent system.
 
dw747400
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:12 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 22):
No, it doesnt because the price usually negates the higher MPG.

In most cases, a diesel--when compared to a similar gas vehicle--will offer significant savings, even taking the higher price of diesel into account. Whether other ownership costs will eat that up I can't say, but you will spend less money on fuel!
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:29 am

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 25):
In most cases, a diesel--when compared to a similar gas vehicle--will offer significant savings, even taking the higher price of diesel into account. Whether other ownership costs will eat that up I can't say, but you will spend less money on fuel!

It wont any significant value unless Diesel and Gas Price is the same or within a few cents. Youd have to drive a diesel car for probably 20-30 years to even make up for the price difference at the time of sale, nevermind that you wont since youve got pricier service in a diesel car.

Take for example a 2010 VW Jetta with Diesel and Gas Prices within .15c of each other.

Gas cost per year for a Unleaded: $1566 /year @ 2.61 vs. 2.76
Gas cost per year for a Diesel: $1217 /year

Take for example now the same car but you live in New England. The price split between Gas and Diesel there right now is .30c $2.69 vs. $2.99

Gas cost per year for a Unleaded: $1550 / year
Gas cost per year for a Diesel: $1320 / year

A question here of $200-300 dollars.

2010 Jetta S Invoice: $17050USD.
2010 Jetta TDI Invoice: $21550USD.

Price difference of: $4500USD
$4500/$300 is some 15 years, $4500/$200 is some 22.5 years.

If you are the average US Citizen youd have to drive the VW Jetta TDI for 15 years just to make up the fuel cost of an Unleaded car. If you live in New England for example or the other half of America it would take you 22.5 years to make up for the fuel cost. That is of course without taking into considerations things such as diesel oil changes or the fact that over the course of the past few years and even historically Diesel fuel is more expensive than Unleaded by .15 or even that .30c. For example when we hit $4,19 US Average last year the Diesel price is only quantified by more rising to an average of $4,99 or so. Thats a whopping .70-.80c difference at which it becomes even more expensive to fuel the diesel car even with extra MPG.

Conclusion: You are an idiot if you think you are saving money because almost no one in the US keeps a car for 15 years much less 22 years hence you are losing money all other things considered.

EDIT: Ive owned and drove 2 diesels in the USA (2.8L sized) before I shipped them off to Europe for 6 months, and its not a lifesaver by any means in the pocketbook especially as spirited driving in a diesel is much more punishing than doing the same in an unleaded car.

[Edited 2010-02-21 00:36:45]
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:45 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 18):
So for the record, I ended up purchasing a 2010 Honda Civic EX sedan. I just wasn't ready for the Insight/hybrid thing. Got a great deal on it, love it so far. Pictures to follow...


Good purchase, IMHO. Excellent resale value and great reliability reputation.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
BMI727
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:39 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 24):
All I said is I pull people with shitty AWD/4WD systems out of ditches.

And I bet that plenty of people with good AWD systems or 2WD end up in ditches as well. And did you ever bother to note how many of the BMWs with the xDrive didn't go in the ditch?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 24):
Quit making excuses that BMW has garbage 4x4 systems,

I didn't say that it was great, just that your standard of measurement is flawed.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 24):
About 80-90% of them are in AWD crossovers or luxury SUVs who think they can go sing Kumbaya even with snow tires in shitty On-demand AWD that cant even transfer anywhere near close to 100% torque from side to side or front to rear.

Perhaps you should consider how they drive more than what they drive in such cases.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
And I bet that plenty of people with good AWD systems or 2WD end up in ditches as well. And did you ever bother to note how many of the BMWs with the xDrive didn't go in the ditch?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Perhaps you should consider how they drive more than what they drive in such cases.

What are you asking me? To take down statistics of how many BMWs are in ditches and how many arent?

Get real man, how many years have you been in the off-road community or working on 4x4 drivetrains that you are giving these hypothesis?

I wasnt born yesterday I know theres bad and good drivers in any car and you can put anything into a ditch, that being said the majority of drivers in these vehicles wouldnt even end up in situations like this if they knew what their car can or cannot do and what mechanics it has before they bought it.

Half these situations dont even involve driver skill, youve got some shitty X3 trying to go up a 7-8% gradient with ice on one side of the driveway and they cant get up it even with decent tires because their worthless X Drive cant shift enough % of torque where it is needed or youve got a reactive on-demand system that is useless when you hit a patch of black ice or slippery surface on side of the car and by the time anything reacts its too late.

Probably not going to happen with a light drizzle, but thats why I said in hazardous conditions such as when theres a blizzard and youve got 1ft+ of snow. Youre an idiot for driving around in any BMW in the first place.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:11 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 5):

Yes, im really not sure what you are talking about here as any decent Diesel will get better mileage than a Prius.

Good luck finding diesel in this country.
-Doc Lightning-

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LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:22 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):

Good luck finding diesel in this country.

Apparently my luck is better than yours. From model year 2005-2010 you have quite a few diesel cars to choose from.

-Audi Q7
-Jeep Liberty
-Jeep Grand Cherokee
-Mercedes ML Series
-Mercedes GL Series
-BMW 3 Series
-BMW X5
-VW Jetta
-VW Golf
-VW Touareg
-Ford F-250+
-Dodge Ram 2500+
-Chevy Silverado 2500+

Yea, the list isnt long but its growing and if you want a diesel theres everything from a small Golf all the way up to a large pickup or SUV.
 
BMI727
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Good luck finding diesel in this country.

It is harder to find in cities, though it seems to be getting easier. But out here, it is pretty easy to find.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cadet57
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:20 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
The difference has flattened again. Definitely not like a year or two ago.

Sure is. atleast .25-.30 a gallon here. I'm paying less for 93 than my father is for diesel.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 16):
Neither have I. I'm considering it though because honestly I'd like to be in a new car every few years.

I thought that too. But why throw money at a car that after a few years you dont own and have put nothing towards. All leases really do is make a car company money.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 20):
Should've gone for a Jetta TDI!!!

   That or an A3 TDI. I'm looking at both when my Jetta is *finally* paid off... I hope I get one too. Hybrid mpg's, great performance (well, relatively speaking) and hell of a lot cheaper to work on than a hybrid. And no stupid battery to replace.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 26):
Take for example now the same car but you live in New England. The price split between Gas and Diesel there right now is .30c $2.69 vs. $2.99

If not more. regular is $2.55 here, diesel was, last time I looked.. $2.95?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Good luck finding diesel in this country.

I can find it at about 50% of the gas stations here if not more.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:11 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 20):
PS: Should've gone for a Jetta TDI!!!

I wish, but VW was a total rip off on their TDI's up here. A Golf TDI example...they wanted $28k and wouldn't budge. That's $10k more than my Civic.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 22):
I wanted to be friends but we just cant be so anymore.

We dont want your photos

Hehe

Come on now LOT. Level with me. At least it's not an Insight/hybrid?? 
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 27):
Good purchase, IMHO. Excellent resale value and great reliability reputation.

  

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 33):
But why throw money at a car that after a few years you dont own and have put nothing towards.

Because I don't really see my cars as an investment, especially if I am replacing them every few years. As long as you pay attention when signing the lease and don't limit yourself, they are cheaper that way.
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Emirates773ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:51 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 29):
Youre an idiot for driving around in any BMW in the first place.

Allow me to call out your BS right there. I own a BMW, a RWD 335i coupe, with proper snow tires and modded to high hell for a couple years now. I live in a place which sees temps of -25C on avg with dips to -40C regularly. Snow to us is like sand to a beach. Putting all these parameters together I still haven't lost control of my car once. Yes you read that right, not once! Dont blame the freakin 4x4 system, blame the damn driver!
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
I'm not an English expert but I believe what it says there is that if you have worn tires: Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
Tire wear is particularly important. Don't bring the car in with less than one-eighth of an inch of tread, or with mismatched tires. If you do, you'll find yourself charged for a new set of tires.

1/8" of tread is nothing. Also, you can always get the cheapest Costco tires and call it a day.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):

3. You laugh now, but its the BMW owners that I pull out of snowed out ditches that sing a different song.

1) It doesn't snow here

2) Stupidity knows no end

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):

Good luck finding diesel in this country.

Its quite easy to find diesel and I live in a a bigger city than you.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:27 pm

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 34):
Come on now LOT. Level with me. At least it's not an Insight/hybrid??


I would have given you a kidney and let you merge infront of me and even possibly let you take my parking space. Now If I see you I will make you hug that merge lane curb to the last foot you have available and if I see you parked I will attach my 5000lb tow straps to your shock absorbers and rev 380lbs of torque upon your cup of Ramen Noodles.

Just kidding....but not really.   

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 35):
Allow me to call out your BS right there. I own a BMW, a RWD 335i coupe, with proper snow tires and modded to high hell for a couple years now. I live in a place which sees temps of -25C on avg with dips to -40C regularly. Snow to us is like sand to a beach. Putting all these parameters together I still haven't lost control of my car once. Yes you read that right, not once! Dont blame the freakin 4x4 system, blame the damn driver!

What does temperature have to do with the amount of snow that is on the ground?

How do you physically drive a 335i RWD in 1ft+ of snow on the ground. We are talking about snow that is halfway up the bumper for gods sake in a regular car. I made that ultra clear when I said in hazardous conditions with that amount of snow on the ground.

This is what I am talking about:

http://z.about.com/d/dc/1/0/b/2/1/2_MTCar.JPG



Dont tell me you can physically drive a sedan in such conditions, or a pseudo-SUV with a clearance of 5 inches for gods sake. Hell, you can chain your rear axle and it wont do you any good because you the whole underside of your car will be settled on it.

You sure as hell can bet that with any kind of lockers or LSD front and rear, decent tires and a body on frame SUV or pickup you can plow right through that or winch out if the crap hits the fan. I aint pulling this out of thin air, aint no damn snowplow come in Central Wisconsin with lake effect snow so youre pretty much F'ed if it snows like that which it does, all the time.

BTW I dont know where you are in Alberta, so Ill just assume Calgary or Edmonton, you average 51 inches there. Do you know what Central and N. Wisconsin, the UP, North Minnesota, Upper NY or anywhere else affected by Lake Effect snow sees? 100-150 inches. 350-400 if you are in Colorado in popular winter destinations. You cant cheat physics. And people dont so they drive Audis and Subarus instead of Mercedes and BMWs there with pretty good (for a car) proactive system.

I see your driver predicament and I agree with such. When In doubt always blame the driver in America (or Canada) first. It usually is the logical explanation of why there is something happening on the road that shouldn't be.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
1/8" of tread is nothing. Also, you can always get the cheapest Costco tires and call it a day.

No, thats a bald tire. After 3 years I guarantee you that half the people will have such a tread, or less. And it is in the lease, just say you were wrong and well be square damnit 
Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
1) It doesn't snow here

2) Stupidity knows no end

1. I know
2. I know, I once saw someone try to rotate staggered tires. Nuff said.

[Edited 2010-02-21 13:38:19]
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:53 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 37):
BTW I dont know where you are in Alberta, so Ill just assume Calgary or Edmonton, you average 51 inches there. Do you know what Central and N. Wisconsin, the UP, North Minnesota, Upper NY or anywhere else affected by Lake Effect snow sees? 100-150 inches. 350-400 if you are in Colorado in popular winter destinations. You cant cheat physics. And people dont so they drive Audis and Subarus instead of Mercedes and BMWs there with pretty good (for a car) proactive system.

That is why u need to buy a snow plower with your coupe in Lake effected snow areas  
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 38):

That is why u need to buy a snow plower with your coupe in Lake effected snow areas

Or you can just attach a plow and rescue poor souls (for $$$ of course). 
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:36 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 33):
Hybrid mpg's, great performance (well, relatively speaking)

The diesels have plenty of pull. More so than the 2.5L 5banger, and that's not exactly a weak engine to begin with might I add. In terms of performance they feel somewhere in between the 2.5L and the 2.0FSI found in the GTI. Which is a good thing.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 37):
This is what I am talking about

Just who in their right mind would ever want to put up with that crap?

Then again people think I'm crazy because I much rather live where there's 120F summers   
 
Cadet57
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:37 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 40):
Then again people think I'm crazy because I much rather live where there's 120F summers  

Yeah, you're out of your mind. I'll take snow any day  
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:00 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 37):

You sure as hell can bet that with any kind of lockers or LSD front and rear, decent tires and a body on frame SUV or pickup you can plow right through that or winch out if the crap hits the fan.

Wow, my old Jeep Cherokee got plowed in like that and I couldn't get it out. Tried and tried and tried. Sorry, but you need treads to get out of that kind of situation, and even that might not work.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):

Its quite easy to find diesel and I live in a a bigger city than you.

The only stations around here that sell diesel are on freeways. I'm all for diesel, as soon as it becomes available at most pumps. As soon as it is available at most pumps, I'll buy a diesel as soon as my hybrid wears out.

I do wonder if a hybrid diesel might not get even better economy.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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N1120A
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):

I do wonder if a hybrid diesel might not get even better economy.

Around the time the first Prius came out, DaimlerChrysler (as they were called then, and I think they need to bring back the Benz in DaimlerBenz, given that Karl Benz saved Daimler's a$$) had a diesel-electric hybrid concept that was pulling 80 mpg.

That said, the technology is there to build non-hybrid diesel (bio and petro) powered conventional and turbine engined cars that do 50-100 mpg with an 80% reduction in emissions. All that, and power that will melt what is left of LOT767-300ER's hair off his head.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html

I hate the car companies for not finding a way to mass produce what this guy is doing.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cptkrell
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:40 am

N1120A; well, I was going to keep just reading this thread with no further comments, but after a few adult beverages and your quote (Rep 43) , in part "...technology to build...turbine engineered cars..." makes me think of why nobody ever got big-time with my idea for air-cooled submarines and water-cooled airplane engines. If I recollect, it's not feasible. Not now, anyway.

The deal with fastcompany.com is that it is just another APU. Generations-old idea.

IF and WHEN auxillary turbine systems functions CAN be mass produced with manufacturing /consumer cost-effectiveness, not to mention eco (turbine don't generate any heat, eh?) maybe that's an alternative.

"The turbine roars into action and through generator recharges the suupercapacitor batteries in seconds." Uhh-huhhh.

Don't blame the car companies for not pouncing on this right away (as they didn't pounce on the 200-mpg carburetor).

All best...jack
all best; jack
 
N1120A
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:14 am

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 44):


The deal with fastcompany.com is that it is just another APU. Generations-old idea.

Read on. Goodwin has done significant work with standard diesel engines as well.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:23 pm

N1120As dream come true is a hydraulic hybrid garbage truck anyways 
 
4holer
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm

I know he bought a standard Honda, but no hybrid thread is complete without this...
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:32 pm

Ive stumbled upon this:

http://www.hypermilingforum.com/

Home to probably the most annoying people ever.
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: So I May Buy A Hybrid Tomorrow. Wait. What?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:52 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 26):
It wont any significant value unless Diesel and Gas Price is the same or within a few cents. Youd have to drive a diesel car for probably 20-30 years to even make up for the price difference at the time of sale, nevermind that you wont since youve got pricier service in a diesel car.

I call total BS on that. My parents just bought a 2010 Jetta TDI and the maths come out to nothing like you just proposed. You forgot about all the tax incentives of buying a alternative car.

For buying a TDI as opposed to a regular gas automobile, they got a $3000 tax credit from the federal gov., then a $1500 NYS tax credit, plus not having to pay certain automotive registration fees in NY. Right there that is about $4550 in savings.

Never mind the fact that (at least according to Hudson Valley VW) most people who look at a Jetta TDI are comparing it with a Prius, and not a regular Jetta which puts pricing at much different levels. In lower NY, the TDI is about $27000 and the Prius is about $1500 more than the TDI, but was not eligible for the government tax credit when my parents were looking.

Granted diesel is about $.20-40 more a gallon in NY, but during the life of the car the savings add up, and you end up saving money a just a couple years, and not 15-20. Never mind the fact that the emissions are much less.
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