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Dreadnought
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Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:20 pm

This should make some liberal heads explode...

(fair note: I am not sure that this has actually gone ahead or not - maybe a Vermonter here can shed some light)

http://news-political.com/2009/11/30...ntative-proposes-sensible-gun-law/

Vermont State Rep. Fred Maslack has read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as well as Vermont ’s own Constitution very carefully, and his strict interpretation of these documents is popping some eyeballs in New England and elsewhere.

Maslack recently proposed a bill to register “non-gun-owners” and require them to pay a $500 fee to the state. Thus Vermont would become the first state to require a permit for the luxury of going about unarmed and assess a fee of $500 for the privilege of not owning a gun.

Maslack read the “militia” phrase of the Second Amendment as not only affirming the right of the individual citizen to bear arms, but as a clear mandate to do so. He believes that universal gun ownership was advocated by the Framers of the Constitution as an antidote to a “monopoly of force” by the government as well as criminals.

Vermont ’s constitution states explicitly that “the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State” and those persons who are “conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms” shall be required to “pay such equivalent.” Clearly, says Maslack, Vermonters have a constitutional obligation to arm themselves, so that they are capable of responding to “any situation that may arise.”
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flymia
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:23 pm

Well looks like it might actually say that, But I think the best thing to do is reword the consitution and not make people who dont own guns pay. Seems like the logical thing to do.
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falstaff
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:31 pm

I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.  
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BMI727
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:31 pm

I'm not sure what is more surprising here, the fact that this guy is proposing this or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.   
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PPVRA
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:39 pm

The City of Kennesaw in the State of Georgia supposedly also has a law like this. But it's one of those old laws that are still on the books and nobody cares about other than for curiosity value. . .

On the other hand, might be a good idea to register those pro-gun control people. After all, they want to come after your guns, with their guns.
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texan
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:46 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):

He proposed this bill in 2000 too. It didn't pass then and it still is not law. Otherwise I would've been fined $500 the past couple of years   Since I was at the only law school in the state, I'm pretty sure we would've discussed it further if the idea had any actual merit or support behind it!

Although it would confuse me if you were in favor of this since it is a tax on the lack of gun ownership, and your anti-tax stance is abundantly clear. As is your stance on forced expenditures based on government directives (which is still, essentially, a tax)!

A separate article on this same issue from over a decade ago brought up an interesting question based on this and the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: "If Vermont recognizes gay marriage, and gays are barred from serving in the military, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt from militia duty?" Hmmmm . . .

Texan

edited to add: Actually, there is no Fred Maslack in the VT Legislature anymore. Hasn't been there in at least a few years. He was from East Poultney, Vermont, though. Again, this is a 10-year old article  Wink

[Edited 2010-02-22 08:49:03]
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falstaff
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
On the other hand, might be a good idea to register those pro-gun control people

Some cities like to post the names of people with concealed weapons permits in the newspaper in order to scare people. I would be mad if I didn't have a concealed permit. By not having your name on the list it just tells everyone that you probably are not armed. If I was planning to rob some houses I would be checking out the list of concealed carry people and avoiding their homes. The average thug would not be likely to do that, but the proffesional thief might.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.

That is shocking  
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RussianJet
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:55 pm

What a pathetic, stupid proposal.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 6):
Some cities like to post the names of people with concealed weapons permits in the newspaper in order to scare people.


I have a Concealed-Carry permit, and I wouldn't mind. Hell, I wouldn't mind having a sign in front of my property saying, "This house is owned by gun-owners who know how to use them."

I heard an interesting bit of information when I took my concealed carry test. Apparently, in the state of Kentucky, no person who had the permit has ever been convicted of using their gun to kill someone where the use of the weapon was found to be unlawful.

So it's not the registered users and concealed-carriers who are the problem - it's the jackoffs running around without registering. I was watching a COPS episode recently and they pulled a kid walking down the street and found he had a fully automatic MAC-9 in his pants.
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dxing
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure what is more surprising here, the fact that this guy is proposing this or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.

Not so much freedom or unity over this one in Vermont I'll bet eh?   

Quoting texan (Reply 5):
A separate article on this same issue from over a decade ago brought up an interesting question based on this and the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: "If Vermont recognizes gay marriage, and gays are barred from serving in the military, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt from militia duty?" Hmmmm . .

They are exempt right now unless they volunteer to serve are they not? Or does Vermont have a conscription law for its State National Guard?
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texan
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:09 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
They are exempt right now unless they volunteer to serve are they not? Or does Vermont have a conscription law for its State National Guard?

Correct, they are exempt. The article was asking, if this law was passed and citizens were required to carry guns to help form a militia, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt. It is a moot point, just a hypothetical the article raised.

Texan
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Cadet57
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:14 pm

I'm moving to Vermont   
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Dreadnought
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:21 pm

As far as I know, DADT is a federal law concerning federal forces.

Now you might say that national guard units can be called up by the federal government, and those troops would need to abide by federal regulations.

The solution is to have all-gay national guard units, which would stay behind in case of a national call-up (No state ever sends their ENTIRE Guard force). I can just picture it - Their banner would be a flower on a pastel background. Their marching song would be "Fairies Wear Boots". Shower-time at the end of the day would be very interesting.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but you have to admit you can have a bit of fun with the concept  
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EA772LR
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 1):
Well looks like it might actually say that, But I think the best thing to do is reword the consitution and not make people who dont own guns pay. Seems like the logical thing to do.

That would be a slippery slope. Once you start changing the Constitution to suit local needs, then whee does it stop? The Constitution suddenly has no authority and we might as well throw it out.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.

Haha me too. Just bought a Saiga .308, put a Tapco pistol grip/collapsible stock, and two 20 rd clips.  
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:50 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Hell, I wouldn't mind having a sign in front of my property saying, "This house is owned by gun-owners who know how to use them."

As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.
 
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:02 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):

As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.

A few years ago I lived in a somewhat bad part of town where some gangs would operate. I had a sign in my window that said "Intruders will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." One night we had break-ins in several houses right next door to me - about half the houses. They didn't bother me. Draw your own conclusions - maybe it was related, maybe not.

I live in a much better neighborhood now.
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:18 pm

If Arizona passed a law like that I'd give up all my guns to make them try to fine me.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
This should make some liberal heads explode...

I'm not sure why this wouldn't make conservative's heads explode too. Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.
 
dl021
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:36 pm

My biggest problem with this proposal in Vermont is that universal conscription is not clearly called for, and the constitution's amendments are more about preserving and ennumerating rights rather than obligating people to do things. I don't read it as mandating the government to do something outside of time of war. It's tricky, though.

Plus, don't they all have guns anyway? Or is that just New Hampshire?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.

HAH!!! I'm still laughing at that one.....I think I'll pass it along.....very considerate of you to volunteer!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
The City of Kennesaw in the State of Georgia supposedly also has a law like this. But it's one of those old laws that are still on the books and nobody cares about other than for curiosity value. . .

It's actually a modern law (city ordinance), passed about 25 or 30 years ago, and since then violent crime (with one or two notable exceptions) has decreased dramatically in that region. It had a problem and now much less so. To be fair if one is a conscientious objector to the concept one is not prosecuted for not owning a firearm, nor does anyone check on it. But it's still known that most homes there are occupied by armed inhabitants. Sort of makes it almost as silly to invade a home in Kennessaw as it would be in Switzerland. Armed society/polite society.
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dxing
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 12):
Correct, they are exempt. The article was asking, if this law was passed and citizens were required to carry guns to help form a militia, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt. It is a moot point, just a hypothetical the article raised.

That makes much more sense.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.

Fortunately my neighbors are armed as well and as we saw here in Houston a little over a year ago, you can use deadly force to protect your neighbors property, especially if you feel threatened.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 28):
I'm not sure why this wouldn't make conservative's heads explode too. Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.

Save that this is in the Constitution which helps to define the government/citizen relationship.

[Edited 2010-02-22 13:42:01 by srbmod]
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Cadet57
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:01 pm

Once again a good thread ruined...
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:10 pm

Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall, like addressing the medical insurance problems, or the chronic homelessness in some US cities, etc. Problems which are faced by most countries around the world, but this is just plain crazy !   

To impose a tax on people who choose NOT to own a gun is one of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard in my life.

This obsession of gun ownership by Americans, is something that I will never understand   
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EA772LR
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:19 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
To impose a tax on people who choose NOT to own a gun is one of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard in my life.

So is imposing a tax on people who choose NOT to buy health insurance like in the failed HCR. Your point is?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
This obsession of gun ownership by Americans, is something that I will never understand

First of all, it's not an obsession, it's a right. Secondly, have you read the Constitution?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:21 pm

Quoting ea772lr (Reply 41):
So is imposing a tax on people who choose NOT to buy health insurance like in the failed HCR. Your point is?

Oh damn, I was hoping to let more and more lefties to put their foot there, and now you've closed the trap 
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dxing
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall, like addressing the medical insurance problems, or the chronic homelessness in some US cities, etc.

I don't think there is a gun ownership "obsession" so much as there is a major resistance to being told by the government that we have to some how ignore a whole amendment that defines our rights to gun ownership in the Bill of Rights. I own both a handgun and a long gun. They sit in the closet ready to be used if necessary. I go to the range and fire them at least once a year, some times twice. Does that make me obsessed? I certainly pair up pretty well to many of my neighbors and how they treat their firearms.

A lot of us would like to, and have wanted to, address medical insurance reform but again, do not trust government in our country to run any sort of nationalized program. Many of the homeless want to be in the position they are in. They refuse long term help and in that regard the courts have backed them up.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting ea772lr (Reply 41):
So is imposing a tax on people who choose NOT to buy health insurance like in the failed HCR. Your point is?

So if you get sick and have no insurance, why should I pay?. Point being your choosing to have NIL insurance effects me and my hip pocket, but my choosing NOT to own a gun doesn't effect anyone !

Quoting ea772lr (Reply 41):
First of all, it's not an obsession, it's a right.

So should be looking after your fellow citizens!

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
They sit in the closet ready to be used if necessary.

Ready to be used for what ?

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
Many of the homeless want to be in the position they are in.

Really, so people actually choose to live in trash cans rather that a 3 bedroom house, I find that incredibly hard to believe.   
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ATTart
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall, like addressing the medical insurance problems, or the chronic homelessness in

I just love how you go around and telling people how they should be living their lives or what they should believe in!!! I do not own a gun and I do not want own one, but I am not against owning a hand gun. It is a person's right here in America, it is not up to any other person from another country questioning our rights here in America. I am sure you would not like someone telling you how you should live your life in Australia, now would you?
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:39 pm

Quoting ATTart (Reply 45):
I just love how you go around and telling people how they should be living their lives or what they should believe in!!! I do not own a gun and I do not want own one, but I am not against owning a hand gun. It is a person's right here in America, it is not up to any other person from another country questioning our rights here in America. I am sure you would not like someone telling you how you should live your life in Australia, now would you?

Is this not an open topic/ discussion for all to partake in ?

Or is it only open to Americans to comment on this. If it is you had better restrict the site! to Americans only then.  

Quoting ATTart (Reply 45):
I am sure you would not like someone telling you how you should live your life in Australia, now would you?

You are well within your rights to comment on anything in Australia that you want to. Remember its a free world, full according to many of you of "free speech" !!
    
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EA772LR
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
So if you get sick and have no insurance, why should I pay?. Point being your choosing to have NIL insurance effects me and my hip pocket, but my choosing NOT to own a gun doesn't effect anyone !

The difference is owning a weapon is a right, health care is not. Because I have a 'Right To Bear Arms' does that mean that because it's my right, the government shall provide the gun for me??
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dxing
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:01 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Ready to be used for what ?

If someone foolishly tries to break into my home. If there is another hurricane more devastating than Ike and I need to defend my home from looters since phone service is out and I can't contact the police. If I decide to go target shooting. Do I need anymore reasons or am I still "obsessed"?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Really, so people actually choose to live in trash cans rather that a 3 bedroom house, I find that incredibly hard to believe.

I don't know about trash cans but there are certainly more than a few people who choose to live on the streets by their own choice. Many of them are mentally disturbed but court decision in the 60's said they could not legally be confined for their own good. Many are habitual drug users who think more of their next fix than they do of holding a job or finding a decent place to live. Some cities tolerate them better than others. Stop by San Francisco some day. They seem to relish their homeless.
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TheCol
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall

I agree, but US internal affairs doesn't concern those of us in the Commonwealth. I don't mind sharing information about what works and what doesn't work up here, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:06 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 30):
If someone foolishly tries to break into my home. If there is another hurricane more devastating than Ike and I need to defend my home from looters since phone service is out and I can't contact the police. If I decide to go target shooting. Do I need anymore reasons or am I still "obsessed"?

This is going off topic,

but to answer you, IMHO,there is no need to have a gun to protect your home from break-in's or looters because if these robbers /looters have guns as well then it's going to turn into something like the "ok corral", you will only be putting your own life at risk and who want's that to happen. You are far better of to let authorized people like the police deal with it, this has been proven time and time again.

Quoting dxing (Reply 30):
Many of them are mentally disturbed but court decision in the 60's said they could not legally be confined for their own good.

If they have mental problems as you have stated, then I would have thought their ability to make decision for themselves is greatly impaired, why a court has made this decision is beyond me, surly the court should be trying to help these people

Quoting dxing (Reply 30):
Many are habitual drug users who think more of their next fix than they do of holding a job or finding a decent place to live.

We all live in this society together so it is a problem for all us, not just them.

That's my    worth !

Quoting TheCol (Reply 31):
I agree, but US internal affairs doesn't concern those of us in the Commonwealth. I don't mind sharing information about what works and what doesn't work up here, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.

Just commenting from an "outsiders" point of view.
  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:12 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 17):
I'm not sure why this wouldn't make conservative's heads explode too. Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.

Yeah, I'd say I'm more Conservative but this is pretty dumb.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
This obsession of gun ownership by Americans, is something that I will never understand

Why not, they're fun! Not all gun owners want to shoot up people. I hope never ever to shoot anyone but it's still fun to use them. Even automatic guns. They say those kind of guns aren't for deer... they're right, but being behind a M2 or M240B and lettin the rounds fly is great, nothing better!

Though I agree, more barriers should be in place to prevent guns from coming into the wrong hands.
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:17 pm

And they call it the land of the free...
 
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
This should make some liberal heads explode...

It should make Conservatives explode a lot more forcefully. Do you honestly mean to tell me that a Conservative would like a law that mandates that someone owns a gun?

As it happens, it won't pass because it's unconstitutional. Mr. Maslak needs to go back to elementary school and take some remedial reading comprehension courses. "Right" and "Responsibility" are not synonyms.

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):

I don't think there is a gun ownership "obsession" so much as there is a major resistance to being told by the government that we have to some how ignore a whole amendment that defines our rights to gun ownership in the Bill of Rights.

There is definitely a wide cultural group of people (it's usually men) who feel that guns=manhood/validation. These people who subscribe to this Carlton Heston school of gun policy are the equivalent of people who subscribe to the Cheech and Chong school of drug policy.

The right to bear arms is important because if we trash that amendment, then there is a precedent for trashing 1, 3, 4, 5, etc. Your guns will not stop the terrorists, they will not stop the government (the government has tanks, aircraft, vast numbers of troops, missiles, chemical agents, etc.), and it has been demonstrated repeatedly they will not stop crime, but you do and should have the right to own them.
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:53 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.

Good lord! Why in the world does any single person need to own that many guns?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
I had a sign in my window that said "Intruders will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." One night we had break-ins in several houses right next door to me - about half the houses. They didn't bother me. Draw your own conclusions - maybe it was related, maybe not.

I vote for the latter. Most criminals wouldn't give your threat a second glance. In fact, many of them would view it as a challenge.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 17):
Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.

Makes one think doesn't it?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall

     

Quoting ea772lr (Reply 23):
First of all, it's not an obsession, it's a right.

I know plenty of people for whom it is very much an obsession.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
Do you honestly mean to tell me that a Conservative would like a law that mandates that someone owns a gun?

Yeah I thought that conservatives were in favor of smaller government and less government intrusion in their lives. Guess I'm wrong.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:02 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
The right to bear arms is important because if we trash that amendment, then there is a precedent for trashing 1, 3, 4, 5, etc. Your guns will not stop the terrorists, they will not stop the government (the government has tanks, aircraft, vast numbers of troops, missiles, chemical agents, etc.), and it has been demonstrated repeatedly they will not stop crime, but you do and should have the right to own them.

Are you saying then that the constitution can/should never be amended because once you start the whole thing will fall in a heap ? a bit like saying don't throw the bath water because the baby will go with it...

I would have though that any constitution can be improved/altered for the better, doesn't necessarily mean that every amendment will be changed and that peoples rights will be taken away from then does it ?

IMHO as civilization and society's around the world evolve and the general public's views on matters progress/change which they do over hundreds of years, sometimes not even that long, then constitutions everywhere (not just America) need to change to reflect those different attitude's.

What do you think ?
  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:45 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
Your guns will not stop the terrorists, they will not stop the government (the government has tanks, aircraft, vast numbers of troops, missiles, chemical agents, etc.),

Ha, we may never know the answer to the government vs citizens but I know some parts of the South were the only way to overrun them is to kill every man, woman, and child... everyone has guns! It's the wild west in some parts down here. Don't forget the same rednecks that are all gungho to fight won us the revolution  
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DocLightning
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:56 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):

Are you saying then that the constitution can/should never be amended because once you start the whole thing will fall in a heap ? a bit like saying don't throw the bath water because the baby will go with it...

The first ten amendments have a very special symbolic meaning because they constitute the Bill of Rights. Although it is technically permissible to tamper with the Bill of Rights, any decision to do so crosses a very big symbolic line. It may not be written into law, but the Bill of Rights is more than just the first ten amendments.

Logically, what you say is true, but there is more to this than logic.
-Doc Lightning-

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cptkrell
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:56 am

"What do I think?" I think I really like dxing's attitude.

Problem here in America, our liberal judges via their liberal attorneys (and I mean "their", too; they all went to the same country-club law schools if they're under 60 or so years old) give reduced sentences to even violent, convicted criminals who after released early mostly return to prey on others before a law enforcement agency can respond.

Falstaff wrote (paraphrased) "...why own so many guns?....
Why does Jay Leno own so many cars? They're neat. If you like cars.

Why do have almost 200 scale model Lockheed Constellations in my toy room? They're neat. And I like them.

Why do I have a half-dozen pistols and other longarms and shotguns? They're neat machinery, they're fun (if you like them) and they can also be used to harvest and also for for protection (see secand paragraph above).

As far as warning signs go, my signs at my property lines read "You Are Now In Range" with a profile of an AK47 underneath the verbage. Regards...jack

P.S., coincidentally, right now, the local news reports Tennessee CCW (concealed-carry permits) are up 23%. Very good. And, BTW, you MUST go through training and be investigated by the TBI before a CCW issue.
all best; jack
 
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OA412
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:02 am

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 40):
Problem here in America, our liberal judges via their liberal attorneys (and I mean "their", too; they all went to the same country-club law schools if they're under 60 or so years old) give reduced sentences to even violent, convicted criminals who after released early mostly return to prey on others before a law enforcement agency can respond.

Source or proof for any of that?

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 40):
Why does Jay Leno own so many cars? They're neat. If you like cars.

Why do have almost 200 scale model Lockheed Constellations in my toy room? They're neat. And I like them.

The primary use of vehicles and Lockheed Constellation models is not as an assault weapon that can bring about deadly force.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:19 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
Ready to be used for what ?

Some of us feel it prudent to prepare for the contingency that our friendly neighborhood police will not be able to come to our assistance in certain situations. I live near the Gulf Coast and a hurricane can overwhelm emergency service for weeks. That can bring out the best and worst in some people. My firearm is protection against the worst.
 
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:35 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):

I vote for the latter. Most criminals wouldn't give your threat a second glance. In fact, many of them would view it as a challenge.

Or as a warning to pack heat before trying to break in to your place.
-Doc Lightning-

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Dreadnought
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):

Or as a warning to pack heat before trying to break in to your place.

Meet the Judge:



I love this for home defense. Fires a shotgun shell with 00 Buckshot. If I meet someone in my hallway, him with his stolen Glock and me with the Judge, I'll give myself a very high chance of coming out ahead. When I was in the military, I played in the home interior playground, and you'd be surprised how hard it is to hit someone with a normal pistol when he just suddenly appears 5 feet in front of you. Instinct kicks in and you tend to shoot before you aim, and I have seen people shoot 4-5 times at that distance without hitting the target. Shotguns are super cool at that range.

Plus the threat of unintended victims is lessened, as the effective range is only about 10-20 feet. This is an indoor gun.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Plus the threat of unintended victims is lessened, as the effective range is only about 10-20 feet. This is an indoor gun.

No gun NO threat and NO victim. !!
  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):

I love this for home defense. Fires a shotgun shell with 00 Buckshot. If I meet someone in my hallway, him with his stolen Glock and me with the Judge, I'll give myself a very high chance of coming out ahead.

So if he's a professional thief, then he should probably own one of these.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Or as a warning to pack heat before trying to break in to your place.

I may be prejudice against people who commit armed robberies and home invasions, but my perception is that many of them make the decision to fire on a victim regardless of whether they are armed or not.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 45):
No gun NO threat and NO victim. !!

"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."

-- L. Neil Smith

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-- Robert A. Heinlein, "Beyond This Horizon", 1942

"... a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..."

-- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

i.e. sometimes, you're on your own, and police may be miles away.

"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

-- James Earl Jones
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cptkrell
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 am

OA712 to my Reply 40; "...source of proof for any of that?..."
Yeah every goddamn morning on TV news and the print and the professional law enforcement officers I associate with.

As per your second irrelevant statement as per vehicles vs models vs firearms for obtaining something one likes....well, preach not unimformedly to me. Thanks...jack
all best; jack
 
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OA412
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RE: Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:26 am

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 49):
Yeah every goddamn morning on TV news and the print and the professional law enforcement officers I associate with.

In other words you have no proof and no source to provide.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 49):
As per your second irrelevant statement as per vehicles vs models vs firearms for obtaining something one likes....well, preach not unimformedly to me. Thanks...jack

That's the best you can do?
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