Ken777
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White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:56 pm

The White House has posted their Health Care proposals on the Internet in advance of the "Summit" on Thursday. The link is below and I'll keep an eye out for the Republican's post, which will hopefully be today.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei
 
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alberchico
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting ken777 (Thread starter):
I'll keep an eye out for the Republican's post, which will hopefully be today

Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.
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Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:16 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway

If they come up with something besides insurance company candy (tort reform and cross state line selling) they may well bring something to the table worth talking about. I think Obama would jump on that one.
 
NIKV69
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.

Blame the GOP Blame the GOP, ignore the fact that the DNC did not need a single GOP vote to get it passed the first time. The DNC couldn't get their own votes. Stop blaming us for your shortcomings already and your weakness and your failures. Christ man you trumped up a stupid bill that completely sucked and your still going to sit there and blame us? Ted Kennedy is rolling over in his grave because a heavily Dem state told you and Obama and Pelosi to STOP!! Stop the propaganda, stop the hate mongering. Start with getting people back to work. Slash taexes down to nothing, give businesses a tax holiday so they can get people working. Then give them more tax breaks for each employee they give health care too. Start with something that makes sense and not some stupid far left vision from Nancy Pelosi. You can't even see that the country is rejecting you. From NJ to MA to NV and November will be your demise. You still sit there and blame us. I can't even begin to even describe your elitism, arrogance and ignorance but I tell you it's going to be gratifying to watch the look on all your faces when you don't call the shots in congress anymore.

Stop the propaganda and start listening and leading.
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cws818
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:45 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
I can't even begin to even describe your elitism, arrogance and ignorance but I tell you it's going to be gratifying to watch the look on all your faces when you don't call the shots in congress anymore.

Arrogance and ignorance are also found on the right.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:00 pm

The new proposal does not (again) define what a proper minimal medical policy should cover, so does not even get to first base in targeting more affordable health care.

So maybe Obama did remove that $100 million payoff to Nebraska that Sen. Nelson insisted be inserted into the Senate bill. He left in place the $300 million Louisiana Purchase for Sen. Landrieu’s vote. Obama’s version rejects the House Stupak amendment prohibiting taxpayer funds to subsidize abortions in favor of the watered down Senate language. This violates Obama’s earlier pledge that abortion will not be funded. He has caved in further to Union demands.

In poll, after poll, after poll, after poll, not to mention the Senate race in Massachusetts where the issue was front and center, the American people have demanded Congress and the President start over from scratch. Yet, here they are once again trying to force this same garbage down our throats.

As I have said many times here - I want health care reform. But not this crap.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The new proposal does not (again) define what a proper minimal medical policy should cover, so does not even get to first base in targeting more affordable health care.

Minimal medical policies will continually be changing, based on advanced in medicine. My preference is to motivate the use of these advances, and reducing their high costs through high volumes.

But there is going to be a long string of arguments and debates and, maybe, civil discussions, about how much care is provided to people in this country. It will either be because of cost restrains of a public system, or cost restraints from private insurance companies, or a combination of both- like we have now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
He left in place the $300 million Louisiana Purchase for Sen. Landrieu’s vote.

While I won't cry at the change for Nebraska I am more supportive of the funds for Louisiana. That state is still reeling from Katrina and I have no problems with above average Federal support. In fact I believe it will be needed for quite a long time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
In poll, after poll, after poll, after poll, not to mention the Senate race in Massachusetts where the issue was front and center, the American people have demanded Congress and the President start over from scratch.

Some Americans want to start over.

Some Americans want to go with a public pan - single payer for all.

Some Americans want a blend, at a reasonable cost.

But the only people really DEMANDING that we start over are the Republicans and the Health Insurance Companies.
 
dxing
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting ken777 (Reply 2):
If they come up with something besides insurance company candy (tort reform and cross state line selling) they may well bring something to the table worth talking about. I think Obama would jump on that one.

Which means that you are not interested in bipartisanship so the GOP voting enmasse "no" are only defending their principles of which you just rejected.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 6):
Some Americans want to start over.

Some Americans want to go with a public pan - single payer for all.

Some Americans want a blend, at a reasonable cost.

But the only people really DEMANDING that we start over are the Republicans and the Health Insurance Companies.

That's incorrect.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233890

"In the latest NEWSWEEK Poll, the majority of Americans are opposed to President Obama's health-care reform plan—until they learn the details."

When you look at specifics that the public supports, they are also things that the GOP supports.

1. A new insurance marketplace.
2. Health insurers should be required to cover anyone who applies, including those with preexisting conditions.
3. Requiring most businesses to offer health insurance to their employees, with incentives for small-business owners to do so.

The public also agrees with the GOP about what they don't like about the plan as well.

1. Imposing a fine on individuals who do not buy health insurance was the least popular provision only 28 percent and opposed by 62 percent.
2. Fifty-five percent opposed the so-called Cadillac tax on the most expensive health-insurance plans.

So there is some consensus between the two parties. The problem is that the democratic paty, the President, the Speaker, and the Majority Leader have completely ignored virtually all of the big items that are important to the GOP and conservatives. They also seem to have decided that come hell or high water they will ram through those things that the public in general says they don't agree with. That's one of the big reasons there is very little support for passing the Obama plan.

I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend. If the President and democratic party leaders have made up their minds that this is what they want, what point in the summit?
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dxing
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:38 pm

After reading the plan I have a few questions. How is it going to reduce cost when, according to the plan:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei

"◦New plans will have to offer preventive care and immunizations at no cost
◦New plans will have to cover an enrollee’s dependent children until age 26; "


The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective and will, in the short term, end up costing far more than testing those with a higher degree of risk. Secondly, a "26" year old child? He can't be serious.

"◦Provide rebates to consumers from insurance companies when they spend a large percentage of consumers’ premiums on advertising, bonuses and other administrative expenses instead of patient care;"

Then can we get a tax rebate when the government spends millions on a superbowl ad promoting the census?

Then there are the spending ideas:

Invest in Community Health Centers.
Community health centers play a critical role in providing quality care in underserved areas. About 1,250 centers provide care to 20 million people, with an emphasis on preventive and primary care. The Senate bill increases funding to these centers for services by $7 billion and for construction by $1.5 billion over 5 years. The House bill provides $12 billion over the same 5 years. Bridging the difference, the President’s Proposal invests $11 billion in these centers.


Perhaps if the President would look at the Rio Grand Valley in Texas, and look at all the new medical practices that have opened up there in the past few years, part of the 7000 doctors that have hung their shingles in our State since tort reform was enacted he could see a way to save money instead of spending more.

Then there is the outright lie "If you like your insurance you get to keep it".

Extend Consumer Protections against Health Insurer Practices.
The Senate bill includes a “grandfather” policy that allows people who like their current coverage, to keep it. The President’s Proposal adds certain important consumer protections to these “grandfathered” plans. Within months of legislation being enacted, it requires plans to cover adult dependents up to age 26, prohibits rescissions, mandates that plans have a stronger appeals process, and requires State insurance authorities to conduct annual rate review, backed up by the oversight of the HHS Secretary. When the exchanges begin in 2014, the President’s Proposal adds new protections that prohibit all annual and lifetime limits, ban pre-existing condition exclusions, and prohibit discrimination in favor of highly compensated individuals. Beginning in 2018, the President’s Proposal requires “grandfathered” plans to cover proven preventive services with no cost sharing.


The highlighted areas are direct contradictions. His statement was, is, and will remain a flat out lie. It's actually the line that started the disbelief in his and the liberals grand plan to begin with.

And then there is the continued unconstitutional requirement for someone to purchase health insurance or face legal action. It has been even further made ridiculous by the Presidents plan:

Improve Individual Responsibility.
The President’s Proposal adopts the Senate approach but lowers the flat dollar assessments, and raises the percent of income assessment that individuals pay if they choose not to become insured. Specifically, it lowers the flat dollar amounts from $495 to $325 in 2015 and $750 to $695 in 2016. Subsequent years are indexed to $695 rather than $750, so the flat dollar amounts in later years are lower than the Senate bill as well. The President’s Proposal raises the percent of income that is an alternative payment amount from 0.5 to 1.0% in 2014, 1.0 to 2.0% in 2015, and 2.0 to 2.5% for 2016 and subsequent years – the same percent of income as in the House bill, which makes the assessment more progressive.


With rates that low why would anyone buy insurance until they needed it? Remember, under this plan you cannot be denied insurance because of a pre-existing conditon, like a broken f----ing leg!

If some of these ideas are so great, why have they not already passed them outside of any health care bill? For example:

Registration and Background Checks of Billing Agencies and Individuals.
In an effort to decrease dishonest billing practices in the Medicare program, the President’s Proposal will assist in reducing the number of individuals and agencies with a history of fraudulent activities participating in Federal health care programs. It ensures that entities that bill for Medicare on behalf of providers are in good standing. It also strengthens the Secretary’s ability to exclude from Medicare individuals who knowingly submit false or fraudulent claims. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act” ( Kirk bill))


If it is going to save so much money, what the hell are they waiting for? Pass it now regardless of whatever happens to the health care bill?

The President still does not get it when it comes to the so called "cadillac plans".

Delay and Reform the High-Cost Plan Excise Tax.
Part of the reason for high and rising insurance costs is that insurers have little incentive to lower their premiums. The Senate bill includes a tax on high-cost health insurance plans. CBO has estimated that this policy will reduce premiums as well as contribute to long-run deficit reduction.


As described in a post above, the majority of Americans reject this proposed tax. For some strange reason the President and the leaders of Congress just don't get it.

Finally, some of the more ridiculous parts of the bill remain:

Health Industry Fees
The Act will impose fees on various sectors of the health industry, intended to recapture some of the benefits they get as more Americans purchase health insurance. These include: (i) a fee on branded prescription drug pharmaceutical companies in proportion to their federal sales; (ii) an excise tax on medical devices; (iii) an annual fee on health insurance companies; and (iv) an excise tax on indoor tanning services.


So, no tort reform. No cross border insurance sales, in other word same old same old. I guess the President thinks if he just explains it one more time us dummy citizens will finally get it? He needs to hear it from the citizens since 3 elections have not made it clear to him, SCRAP THIS BILL AND START OVER!!!!!
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Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:50 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend.

I'll go with that one first as it's the easiest.

The White House has said that it would post its proposals on the internet 72 hours before the "Summit", and they did.

We should now be seeing the GOP proposals also being posted today - hopefully. (I haven't seen news stories about the Republican's Plan in response to Obama's on the internet yet.)

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
Which means that you are not interested in bipartisanship so the GOP voting enmasse "no" are only defending their principles of which you just rejected.

I have no problem with bi-partisanship. But I don't support Tort Reform and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

Until I see very noticeable drops in costs with tort reform today (like Texas) I'll stick with the assumption that law suits are around 0.5% of health care costs in this country.

On the selling of health care across state lines, I believe that the companies should be required to meet the consumer standards of the state they are selling into, as well as demonstrate that they understand and accept any differences in costs between states. Actual costs in Boston and New York and San Francisco will be higher than in, say, Oklahoma City or Joplin simply because of the differences in the costs of living. Don't believe that a "Joplin Based" insurance company can force their local cost structure on Boston and New York and San Francisco and be successful.

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
1. A new insurance marketplace.

What about a Medicare type plan, with premiums set at a percentage of income, for those with pre-existing conditions and their families?

That would eliminate the need for private companies to increase your premiums for "rejects" like me. Or do you prefer to pay the increased premiums?

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
1. Imposing a fine on individuals who do not buy health insurance was the least popular provision only 28 percent and opposed by 62 percent.

Maybe instead of a fine we can have a tax that is used to "provide" insurance for those who do not want it. Let them choose between a private company in a pool, or maybe even Medicaid.

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
2. Fifty-five percent opposed the so-called Cadillac tax on the most expensive health-insurance plans.

Tax free health care was a no brainer 50 years ago, when almost everyone had job related insurance.

These days the world is different. The bottom of the pyramid has grown dramatically, with jobs like fast food joints that don't offer insurance. And the costs have gone through the roof on the insurance side. I can't blame anyone from wanting free compensation, but believe that $30K up policies should attract taxing as regular income. Even McCain wanted to tax health insurance benefits.
 
Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective

What about automatic testing for "high risk" groups? Maybe the country can even negotiate lower prices for volume testing. WalMart learned years ago that leads to success. But the previous administration made it illegal for the government to negotiate for lower drug prices for programs like Medicare or Medicaid.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
Secondly, a "26" year old child? He can't be serious.

Isn't this tied to kids going through school? While a BA or BS may be completed by 26 the advanced degrees, especially for those on a budget, take longer - especially areas like Medicine, Engineering, etc.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
With rates that low why would anyone buy insurance until they needed it? Remember, under this plan you cannot be denied insurance because of a pre-existing conditon, like a broken f----ing leg!

So you'd be happy with an income tax that can be applied to insurance premiums - just to ensure everyone pays their share.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
If it is going to save so much money, what the hell are they waiting for? Pass it now regardless of whatever happens to the health care bill?

There are already efforts to go after the fraud, with some major successes in the last few months. Spend more money on computer based investigations and monitoring of providers billing and you'll find a lot more fraud. It's going to take lots of computer power, programmers, statisticians and cops. But you will be sending people to prison, making a fine example to others.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:02 pm

Conservatives will hate it.

Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

If Gingrich had come up with the same plan, they'd love it.

Such is the state of the U.S. Nobody cares about running the country anymore. People only care about fighting the "enemy."
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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FlyPNS1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective and will

Preventative care does NOT mean "testing everyone for everything." The fact that you don't understand this is embarassing.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:30 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):

Blame the GOP Blame the GOP, ignore the fact that the DNC did not need a single GOP vote to get it passed the first time.

No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

It's time to be done with "compromise." The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people. The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office. They are SO intent on blocking this, only because it is a DNC proposal, that they actually started spreading lies about how this will lead to death panels and rationing, even though there is ZERO ZIP NO NONE NADA evidence to support those claims. They even went so far as to call it "Communism" and "Socialism" even though 100% of First-World democracies provide universal healthcare to all citizens...with one glaring exception.

No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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DeltaMD90
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

Well, then again, these republicans have been voted in and reelected, so some Americans must like them...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
dxing
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:23 pm

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
We should now be seeing the GOP proposals also being posted today - hopefully. (I haven't seen news stories about the Republican's Plan in response to Obama's on the internet yet.)

The GOP plan has been out for months. It hasn't changed, it hasn't had to be re-written, or re-worded to try and make it more acceptable.

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

It's simpe, direct, and actually saves money not to mention not killing a whole forest of trees to print.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
I have no problem with bi-partisanship. But I don't support Tort Reform and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

As stated, then you are not interested in any type of GOP participation. You can now drop the party of No stuff since you obviously don't care one way or the other.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Until I see very noticeable drops in costs with tort reform today (like Texas) I'll stick with the assumption that law suits are around 0.5% of health care costs in this country.

That will never happen until tort reform is passed nation wide. We have discussed this at length. Medical liability insurance is sold nationwide so doctors in Texas pay for jury awards in California and New York. The noticeable difference in Texas is the amount of doctors that have set up shop here, most noticeably in areas that were previously lacking in medical clinics such as the Rio Grande Valley. But continue to ignore that.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
On the selling of health care across state lines, I believe that the companies should be required to meet the consumer standards of the state they are selling into, as well as demonstrate that they understand and accept any differences in costs between states.

Why. The plan the President is putting forth clearly states that in a few years there will be one standard, the federal governments. Also, if you are increasing the pool costs automatically go down. Home insurance does not differentiate between the costs of living in Oklahoma versus California except in the premium price. Again, you are shooting for something for nothing.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
What about a Medicare type plan, with premiums set at a percentage of income, for those with pre-existing conditions and their families?

That would eliminate the need for private companies to increase your premiums for "rejects" like me. Or do you prefer to pay the increased premiums?

Why would you need that if the law will say that insurance companies must insure you? Again, you are looking for something for nothing for members of your family with no financial or any other type of responsibility on their part. So the short answer is no. If you have increased risk you should have to pay an increased premium. That is the way it is done with every other type of insurance in the world. Bad driver? You pay more. Live in an earthquake zone? Try buying cheap earthquake insurance. New pilot? Try getting cheap insurance for your aircraft.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Maybe instead of a fine we can have a tax that is used to "provide" insurance for those who do not want it. Let them choose between a private company in a pool, or maybe even Medicaid.

No, it is still a mandatory "tax" in lieu of a mandatory "purchase" to keep out of jail.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Tax free health care was a no brainer 50 years ago, when almost everyone had job related insurance.

These days the world is different.

Health care is a benefit. It should remain a benefit to attract the best workers. Your approach is just a give away to the laziest of the bunch.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
What about automatic testing for "high risk" groups?

If they are proven high risk then they should be tested. But that is not what the President or the legislation says.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
But the previous administration made it illegal for the government to negotiate for lower drug prices for programs like Medicare or Medicaid.

OK, are we going to live in 2008 or are we going to deal with the issues of today? But then like most liberals today you are a suscriber to the school of "two wrongs make a right".

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
Isn't this tied to kids going through school?

A dependent child? 26? I have a daughter in college right now who is 21 and living at home. I can't claim her. She will be dropped from my insurance this year. I lose the child deduction on federal taxes on my younger daughter next year when she turns 17. You are legally considered an adult when you turn 18. If your parents decide to let you live rent free under their roof that is their business. Not the governments, not mine.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
So you'd be happy with an income tax that can be applied to insurance premiums - just to ensure everyone pays their share.

No. You cannot selectively tax one group over another simply because they do not wish to purchase something.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
There are already efforts to go after the fraud, with some major successes in the last few months.

Given your record for embellishment and overstating the facts, lets see some proof. That being said, it still does not explain why they have to wait on a health care bill to pass this. It could have been done a year ago.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
(except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later)

Sorry, I'm not buying that. If they had no problem with tort reform (and they do since the trial lawyers own them) they would have gotten behind a bipartisan bill on this years ago.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
but just because it's Obama's idea.

No, they oppose it because it contains language that is not only unconstitutional but increases the "entitlement" mentality in this country. That doesn't even begin to address cost.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
If Gingrich had come up with the same plan, they'd love it.

The GOP has had parts of this plan as theirs for years. The democratic party was not in charge and as such, would threaten fillibuster if the GOP talked about bringing up a bill which included pre-existing conditions, as well as tort reform and increased competition without including a single payer system. Charlie Rangel has introduced a single payer system bill in Congress every year for more than a decade. He wasn't going to sign on to tort reform since single payer, government run, would eliminate the need.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
Preventative care does NOT mean "testing everyone for everything." The fact that you don't understand this is embarassing.

The fact that you didn't read the plan is even more embarassing.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei

It keeps insurance companies honest by setting clear rules that rein in the worst insurance industry abuses. And it bans all insurance companies from denying insurance coverage because of a person’s pre-existing medical conditions while giving consumers new power to appeal insurance company decisions that deny doctor ordered treatments covered by insurance.


◦New plans will have to offer preventive care and immunizations at no cost;


Those are direct reflections to both the House and Senate versions of their respective health care bills that require the Presidents requirement from his health care speech before the joint session of Congress requiring preventive testing for free.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/....health.care.transcript/index.html

And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies.

Because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cws818
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:31 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend. If the President and democratic party leaders have made up their minds that this is what they want, what point in the summit?

Perhaps so there can be specific bases for discussion? Isn't the summit on Thursday 2/25?

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
But then like most liberals today you are a suscriber to the school of "two wrongs make a right".

Nobody has subscribed to that supposed "school."
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
NIKV69
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

Well this is because you are much like Nancy Pelosi and don't like to listen to anyone about their view. It's me me me. Well this is not how this country was built and this attitude is why you will lose a ton of seats and control of congress.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the USA
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the people.

So much for not having the MSNBC talking points taking over this thread.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office

You got that backwards it was you that wanted the GOP out and said anything to get Obama elected. Well a year later and that has caught up to you. Badly.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.

LOL, man your going to hold on to that lame sound byte right to the bitter end aren't you? Well it's time if some real Democrats could have the courage to tell Pelosi to take a flying leap. Hell I wouldn't even mind Bubba coming back and being president. Would be far better than what we have now. At least he could keep his congress in check. Hell I will even find him some chubbies so he can not have sex with them.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
cws818
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:36 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the USA
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the people.

So much for not having the MSNBC talking points taking over this thread.

Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
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OA412
Crew
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:43 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Conservatives will hate it.

Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

Quoting cws818 (Reply 4):
Arrogance and ignorance are also found on the right.

Come now, how could ever make such a ridiculous assertion?  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
It's time to be done with "compromise." The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people. The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office.

  

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
Well this is because you are much like Nancy Pelosi and don't like to listen to anyone about their view. It's me me me. Well this is not how this country was built and this attitude is why you will lose a ton of seats and control of congress.

Pot meet kettle.
Hi kettle, you're black.
Hey pot, so are you.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 18):
Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.

I second that. What is this bizarre obsession with MSNBC. From what I've gathered in reading this board, you're the only one who actually watches the network, yet you've convinced yourself that everyone on the right is getting their ideas from them. Weird! Do you have a secret crush on Rachel Maddow? Keith Olbermann?
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fr8mech
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:47 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

No, this reform, like the others will be opposed because it is an expansion of government into every facet of American life. This expansion should be anethema to Americans who believe in the free market and who believe in freedom of choice and liberty. That is why this 'reform' should be opposed.

Let's get to the meat: funding this thing.

Under current law, workers who earn a salary pay a flat tax of 1.45 percent of their wages to support the Medicare Hospital Insurance (HI) trust fund, but those who have substantial unearned income do not, raising issues of fairness. The Act will include an additional 0.9 percentage point Hospital Insurance tax for households with incomes exceeding $200,000 for singles and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. In addition, it would add a 2.9 percent tax for such high-income households to unearned income including interest, dividends, annuities, royalties and rents (excluding income from active participation in S corporations.

(Can anyone say tax increase?)

Beginning in 2018, the Act imposes an excise tax on insurance companies to help finance the tax credits and other portions of comprehensive health reform.

(Well, that's politically brave. 2018?)

The Act will impose fees on various sectors of the health industry, intended to recapture some of the benefits they get as more Americans purchase health insurance. These include: (i) a fee on branded prescription drug pharmaceutical companies in proportion to their federal sales; (ii) an excise tax on medical devices; (iii) an annual fee on health insurance companies; and (iv) an excise tax on indoor tanning services.

So, now we're calling taxes, fees. Prices will go up. And since when is a indoor tanning joint part of the health care industry?

The Act will impose an additional 10 percent penalty on non-health withdrawals from HSAs and Archer MSAs; limit Flexible Spending Accounts under cafeteria plans to $2,500; eliminate, starting in 2012, the deduction for employer subsidies for retiree drug coverage under Part D; raise the floor on the itemized deduction for major medical expenses to 10 percent of AGI for the non-elderly and non-disabled; and limit excessive compensation paid by certain health insurance companies.

No problem with the first clause. But, why limit FSA's? Raising the floor from 2% to 10% for taking a medical deduction. Limit excessive (someone define that for me, please) compensation to certain insurance companies?

This will be another 2000+ page POS that takes from the American people. It is a wealth redistribution scheme.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:52 pm

I have the feeling that this will just end up a repeat of the last time. I might support something if it really helped the average person.   
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
fr8mech
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:13 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
I have the feeling that this will just end up a repeat of the last time. I might support something if it really helped the average person.

I agree. This is the same POS repackaged with Obama's seal of approval.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

That's a boy. Just push it through. You do realize that these politicians don't want to commit political suicide. To push Obama/Pelosi/Reid care through, with the grass roots resistance out there, would have assured tough, almost impossible elections.

I have no issue with the GOP being the 'party of no' in this case. The gang of 3 is trying to fundamnetally change the way Americans live. We ned to say NO to that. I hope they keep saying no until a bill is presented that is palatable to the majority of Americans.

I hate to sound like a broken record of GOP and Conservative talking points, but talking points appear to be the only thing the Left understands.

Tort Reform
Eliminate insurance mandates
Allow selling across state lines
Eliminate Medicare/Medicad fraud

Hey, and just for giggles: drill here, drill now.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
NIKV69
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.

Well when he begins to give an opinion and not something like republicans don't care about people or America I will listen. This is just hate speech and designed to scare people into believing the GOP are the reason the DNC is failing. Which we have clearly seen not be the case. No matter how much you blurt out your baseless soubd bytes.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner

Why did the Dems that wouldn't vote for it hate it?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Pot meet kettle.
Hi kettle, you're black.
Hey pot, so are you.

Can you ever post anything here besides the same cliches and useless talking points?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
I second that. What is this bizarre obsession with MSNBC. From what I've gathered in reading this board, you're the only one who actually watches the network, yet you've convinced yourself that everyone on the right is getting their ideas from them. Weird! Do you have a secret crush on Rachel Maddow? Keith Olbermann?

Yet a lot of the things the left here say sound exactly the same as Ed Schultz and Rachel Maddow. Must be my imagination.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
dxing
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people.

The exact same thing could be said about the democratic party. They aren't anymore interested in compromise now than they were when they were in the minority and threatened filibuster whenever the GOP talked about tort and other reforms. It was single payer or nothing back then. The democratic party has demonstrated, and the people have seen, over the past year that the democratic party is simply not concerned about the USA and its financial situation. They have seen that the democratic party has no second thoughts on bankrupting us to simply get their way. The democratic party has demonstrated over the past few months that they aren't interested in what the people want as they are set to ram this thing through on reconciliation if that's what it requires. Poll after poll has shown that the people don't want this gargantuan bill which nobody can explain or define. They don't want government take over of their health care and are perfectly happy working out a solution for the minority that don't have health care. Of course when the GOP thought about doing that (reconciliation) with SS reform a few years back they were just evil, evil, evil.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office.

As is the DNC in keeping the GOP in the minority. That's called politics and goes much farther back than this debate.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
They are SO intent on blocking this, only because it is a DNC proposal, that they actually started spreading lies about how this will lead to death panels and rationing, even though there is ZERO ZIP NO NONE NADA evidence to support those claims.

No more so than the President has continually, and continues to say, said the GOP has no ideas, when he was handed their proposal a little less than a month ago, proposals that date back several years. No more so than the President who continues to say that if you like your insurance you will get to keep it, even though that is a bald face lie as defined by his own legislative iniative out today!!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.

It would be nice if the President would take back his party from the far left but since he suscribes to their beliefs, that's not likely to happen. I wonder, one forum member is fond of posting the number of threatened and actual filibusters the GOP has had during the past two Congresses, yet when you look back the number rose sharply right after the democratic party went into the minoroity. Just how many is too many? When does a party go from loyal as you put it to just plain old opposition? When is a party or group of people supposed to just throw out their belief system and roll over? Be careful how you answer.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 16):
Perhaps so there can be specific bases for discussion? Isn't the summit on Thursday 2/25?

Since he has already ruled out starting over and claims that any negotiation will have to be based on the two plans as they stand, what is the point? The GOP has already stated, as have several extremely liberal members of Congress, that they won't support the Senate bill.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 16):
Nobody has subscribed to that supposed "school."

Please. Whenver someone posts "But George Bush and the GOP spent..." to defend the spending this administration is doing, that is exactly the school of thought they are in.
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cws818
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:22 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
This is just hate speech and designed to scare people into believing the GOP are the reason the DNC is failing.

It's not hate speech. It's his opinion. You just happen to disagree and dislike it. MSNBC has nothing to do with it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
Please. Whenver someone posts "But George Bush and the GOP spent..." to defend the spending this administration is doing, that is exactly the school of thought they are in.

Such spending then was for different things.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
dxing
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:27 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 25):
Such spending then was for different things.

Doesn't make any difference what it was spent on. If you don't have the money to spend, simply saying, "well they did it too" is suscribing to the "two wrongs make a right" school of thought.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:55 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):

It would be nice if the President would take back his party from the far left

There you go. Universal healthcare is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT* a "far-left" idea.

I am going to ask you a question and I want you to answer it:
Which of the following countries are "far-left"?
Canada
UK
Germany
France
Spain
Italy
Greece
The Netherlands
Belgium
Austria
Switzerland
Poland
Japan
Australia
New Zealand
Sweden
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Singapore
S. Korea

I know the answer. I'm wondering if you do.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
When is a party or group of people supposed to just throw out their belief system and roll over? Be careful how you answer.

Because the President's proposed reforms in no way, shape, or form go against GOP beliefs or platform. It isn't mandatory single-payer healthcare, now is it? It's regulations that give consumers some control over their health and safety. Just like regulations that prevent airlines from skimping on safety or regulations that prevent meat packers from including dead rats in their product.

The current system is so anti-capitalist it's hilarious. Consumers of healthcare have very little choice in which insurance plans they have unless they are 100% healthy (i.e. fit for BUDS course in the Navy). They have no recourse when their insurance company denies necessary treatment. Rationing is alive and well, which is why I, as a physician, am prohibited from doing a well child exam any less than 365 days from the last one (and as teenagers one of our health plans only allows one well-check only every FOUR years). And while a patient might get a needed treatment, the patient may well find themselves slapped with a $100k+ bill when the insurance denies the claim.

So what you are saying is that the GOP would rather get insurance companies rich than protect people. I'd be tempted to believe it, but I don't think that's their primary justification. Their primary justification is to stop the DNC whatever they do.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 20):

Under current law, workers who earn a salary pay a flat tax of 1.45 percent of their wages to support the Medicare Hospital Insurance (HI) trust fund, but those who have substantial unearned income do not, raising issues of fairness. The Act will include an additional 0.9 percentage point Hospital Insurance tax for households with incomes exceeding $200,000 for singles and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. In addition, it would add a 2.9 percent tax for such high-income households to unearned income including interest, dividends, annuities, royalties and rents (excluding income from active participation in S corporations.

Do you make over $200K?

Seeing as how people who make over $200K generally make such money supported by people who make far less (i.e. their employees) they should have to kick some in to get everyone else covered.

In fact, I'll be affected by such a tax and I'll be happy to pay it because it will mean that my health insurance payments will drop by more than the tax.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):

So much for not having the MSNBC talking points taking over this thread.

I don't watch MSNBC. In fact, I don't really watch TV. I read my news, typically from the NYT and WSJ.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:28 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
But continue to ignore that.

What I don't ignore is that Texas is a fairly big state and easily has a population large enough to establish its own risk pool.

Are you saying that the state politicians actually passed a tort reform bill that did NOT require the insurance companies to use only the "post tort reform Texas risk pool"?

Golly gee, they must have been conservatives so glassy eyed from the various "contributions" for the insurance companies that they "forgot" to do that.

As long as Texas has the population to justify a tort reform based risk pool that actually lowers costs to consumers you and anyone else paying medical bills (directly and indirectly) should be both pissed and embarrassed.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
standard, the federal governments.

Golly, there must be nothing more scary for a conservative than the thought of a government standard that tries to protect consumers.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
Home insurance does not differentiate between the costs of living in Oklahoma versus California except in the premium price.

Actually, home insurance can vary because of acts of nature, like tornados, flooding, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.

And the costs of repairs can vary by state because of the costs of living and related amounts charged for materials and labor.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
Again, you are looking for something for nothing for members of your family with no financial or any other type of responsibility on their part. [/quote

I don't know if you pulled that out of the air, or from another 3 letter word starting with an "a", but it is without doubt one of the cheapest and dumbest things I've seen you write. We happen to have paid for our family's private insurance throughout my working life. After you conservatives into office our health insurance doubled in less than 4 years to $1,000. Can you figure out why I am so imporessed with the Republican's plans?

And I'm sure it upsets you to know that you are now paying for part of my Medicare insurance, but don't talk about something for nothing. It wipes out any credibility you might have with reasonable people trying to look at both sides.

[quote=dxing,reply=15]Why would you need that if the law will say that insurance companies must insure you?

No me, Im covered. But, if you actually think about it, the more "high risk" people the insurance companies can dump the more patients who cannot pay will show up at the hospital for treatment and YOUR premiums will go up to cover them. That's really smart, isn't it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
If you have increased risk you should have to pay an increased premium. That is the way it is done with every other type of insurance in the world.

And for many the insurance companies will jack the premiums up to where they are unaffordable.

That means either a very large pool for the insurance companies or a public option.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
Health care is a benefit. It should remain a benefit to attract the best workers. Your approach is just a give away to the laziest of the bunch.

When premiums for a Caddy program exceed a certain level then it looks more like tax avoidance than a normal benefit. Easiest way to handle that is the $200K/$250K income limits before it gets taxed. But, remember that the Republicans were going to tax those same benefits for everyone under McCain.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
If they are proven high risk then they should be tested.

African American women are at higher risk of breast cancer.

African American men are at greater risk of prostate cancer.

American Indians are at greater risk of diabetes and resulting complications.

Vietnam Vets are at greater risk of a long list of Agent Orange caused medical conditions.

You get to a point where it's pretty hard to eliminate people because some factor.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
She will be dropped from my insurance this year.

Unless, of course, Obama gets his plan through and then she'll be covered until she's 26. You'll be able to use the money saved to help her with graduate degrees.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
OK, are we going to live in 2008 or are we going to deal with the issues of today?

When the 2008 law is still on the books maybe it finally needs to be dealt with. Or do you own shares in the Pharma companies?

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
You cannot selectively tax one group over another simply because they do not wish to purchase something.

My thinking was to tax everyones income and apply that tax to the purchase of health care policies, wither from private insurance companies or a public policy. Let 'em all compete.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
Given your record for embellishment and overstating the facts,

Check out the news or google "Medicare Fraud Arrests" and let the results show what has been going on. No embellishment there, or overstating the facts.

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
That being said, it still does not explain why they have to wait on a health care bill to pass this.

As the Google search above will show, it is going on and has been for a while.

What is needed is additional investments in the tools and personnel needed to find, arrest, try and imprison those planing the fraud games. Another good reason to avoid shrinking government.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
Well this is because you are much like Nancy Pelosi and don't like to listen to anyone about their view.

Could it be that, because he's a doctor, he has seen the problems with the conservatives approach. Doesn't make him a hard left liberal - makes him a good doctor fed up with the crap that goes on in health care.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
Hell I wouldn't even mind Bubba coming back and being president.

We could have guessed that a year ago.  
Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 20):
And since when is a indoor tanning joint part of the health care industry?

Since it and gym membership became part of Medicare Advantage "benefits". Your tax dollars pay for that. Impressed?
 
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OA412
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:36 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.
Well when he begins to give an opinion and not something like republicans don't care about people or America I will listen. This is just hate speech and designed to scare people into believing the GOP are the reason the DNC is failing. Which we have clearly seen not be the case. No matter how much you blurt out your baseless soubd bytes.

You quoted the wrong person there?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Can you ever post anything here besides the same cliches and useless talking points?

But enough about you...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Yet a lot of the things the left here say sound exactly the same as Ed Schultz and Rachel Maddow. Must be my imagination.

Yet we keep telling you that we listen to neither, so yeah I would say it's your imagination.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
I don't watch MSNBC. In fact, I don't really watch TV. I read my news, typically from the NYT and WSJ.

Stop it Doc. We're all MSNBC watching, Rachel Maddow worshipers. New York Times and Wall Street Journal? I don't buy it. Where is it you get your talking points from?  
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WarRI1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:48 am

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-02-22-12-38-05


I guess this means we do not need healthcare reform , just a slight adjustment in healthcare costs for 2010.   I wonder who will pay for this?
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fr8mech
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Do you make over $200K?

No, but my wife and I reach the 250K threshold.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Seeing as how people who make over $200K generally make such money supported by people who make far less (i.e. their employees) they should have to kick some in to get everyone else covered.

My wife and I work rather hard for ever penny we make. We don't work off the backs of anyone else. And even if we did, why in God's name would I have to kick back to get everyone covered? I do not see that as a moral responsibilty. I feel more compelled to feed someone than to provide his medical coverage.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
In fact, I'll be affected by such a tax and I'll be happy to pay it because it will mean that my health insurance payments will drop by more than the tax.

You really believe that? You really think that your premium will be less than your tax? Have you learned nothing about government? It is inefficient. You said so yourself in another thread. You will pay the tax, you will pay the premiums. As a doctor you will be paid a mere pittance of what you are worth. You think that insurance companies are stingy with payments, wait until the government is the only payer.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 28):
Since it and gym membership became part of Medicare Advantage "benefits". Your tax dollars pay for that. Impressed?

And you want these people running healthcare for you?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Ken777
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:12 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
They aren't anymore interested in compromise now than they were when they were in the minority and threatened filibuster whenever the GOP talked about tort and other reforms.

I'll support filibusters that were made for the health insurance companies and for the health insurance companies. At least until I see major cuts in health care for consumers in those states with "Tort Reform" AND are large enough to have their own risk pool.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
They have seen that the democratic party has no second thoughts on bankrupting us to simply get their way.

SInce the worst economic times in my65 years were at the end of the last administration that comment is a bit off.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
Of course when the GOP thought about doing that (reconciliation) with SS reform a few years back they were just evil, evil, evil.
Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
Since he has already ruled out starting over and claims that any negotiation will have to be based on the two plans as they stand, what is the point?

There you go again. To quote you:

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
Given your record for embellishment and overstating the facts, lets see some proof
 
LAXintl
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 am

Wacky stuff.
I thought we were supposed to have a "summit" on Thursday to have a sharing of ideas. Instead we get more leftist propaganda thrown out on the table. So much for setting the stage for a productive meeting.

This version of Obamacare does the same things like the rest of the plans and robs people of individual liberty. Again the government gets between you and your doctor to decide what care you will get. The plan calls for top down iron fisted controls that are plainly equal to price controls and rationing. Sounds like a repressive communist regime.
The plans rob money out of people’s pockets, drive up taxes to business large and small, and for those individuals that refuse to relent will see penalties. Basically all these schemes do something never seen before in American history, by forcing every American man woman and child to buy something. So much for individual liberty.

All put together, nothing short of the most expensive, aggressive, authoritarian entitlement program in American history!

I cant wait till the election so we can clean their clocks.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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OA412
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Again the government gets between you and your doctor to decide what care you will get.

Which is worse than insurance companies getting between you and your doctor how?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Sounds like a repressive communist regime.

Being a bit over dramatic aren't we?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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WarRI1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 31):

My wife and I work rather hard for ever penny we make. We don't work off the backs of anyone else. And even if we did, why in God's name would I have to kick back to get everyone covered? I do not see that as a moral responsibilty. I feel more compelled to feed someone than to provide his medical coverage.

And? How about the guy digging a ditch, getting nowhere near your income, how about the factory worker?, how about the trucker?, how about the nursing home worker cleaning up shit, literally? How about the guy cleaning up the yard of the folks who make the barely living wage, like you seem to? I know! You are special, you work hard for your money, what crap! You folks who are screaming use this system more than most, and more than most perpetuate it to stay SPECIAL.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
LAXintl
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:34 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 34):
Which is worse than insurance companies getting between you and your doctor how?

As I have said here before, I fully fund my own insurance cost, and am quite happy with what I get for my money.

I get access when I want and to what I want, and dont need the government to also get in between my family and primary care providors.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 34):
Being a bit over dramatic aren't we?

Well I've lived in several European nations and was appalled to experience their health care systems. No wonder they have to send people out of the country for treatments, and also Europe has a robust and growing private health insurance market as people realize government mandated and rationed system does not work for many.

No thank you sir.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:39 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 35):
nd? How about the guy digging a ditch, getting nowhere near your income, how about the factory worker?, how about the trucker?, how about the nursing home worker cleaning up shit, literally? How about the guy cleaning up the yard of the folks who make the barely living wage, like you seem to? I know! You are special, you work hard for your money, what crap! You folks who are screaming use this system more than most, and more than most perpetuate it to stay SPECIAL.

Are you saying they are slaves? They are paid for their work. I don't know what Fr8Mech does for a living, but from his income I presume that he did not quit school at 16 or run around in a gang.

You really need to put down the Communist Manifesto (where those arguments came from).
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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OA412
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:42 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
As I have said here before, I fully fund my own insurance cost, and am quite happy with what I get for my money.

I get access when I want and to what I want, and dont need the government to also get in between my family and primary care providors.

And what happens when the insurance company decides they won't pay for a procedure that you need? Or when your provider decides that they will no longer accept your plan? What happens when you fund your own insurance and they drop you because you've just been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Pre-existing condition clauses? Privatized health care isn't exactly all sunshine and roses either.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
Well I've lived in several European nations and was appalled to experience their health care systems. No wonder they have to send people out of the country for treatments, and also Europe has a robust and growing private health insurance market as people realize government mandated and rationed system does not work for many.

And I've heard the exact opposite of the above more times than I can count. I've come across many people who tell me that they wouldn't give up their current health care scheme for a fully privatized one like we have. I've also come across people who complained about the nationalized health care system until they had to use the private system in Europe. They went running back to the nationalized system.
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WarRI1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:42 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
I cant wait till the election so we can clean their clocks.

Oh yes! That is what drives you folks is it not, not for the good of humanity, not for the dis-advantaged, not for the good of the economy, not for fairness, not even for the US. but Yes! to clean their, our clocks. Yes! Power to the Right, The nerve of this man to win the Presidency with the help of the Common Man. Let us see it just once on here, admit it, do not hide it behind all the bull, just say it. Equality of everyone for once and the "Right" cannnot stand it and more importantly fears it to the point of paranoia. A possible crack in the power structure.
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Dreadnought
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:48 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):

Oh yes! That is what drives you folks is it not, not for the good of humanity, not for the dis-advantaged, not for the good of the economy, not for fairness, not even for the US. but Yes! to clean their, our clocks

Think what you like, but we believe that humanity, the economy, and yes, the disadvantaged will be better served by getting off the Opium of massive government redistribution. If you refuse to believe that, you are only fooling yourself.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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OA412
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:51 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Think what you like, but we believe that humanity, the economy, and yes, the disadvantaged will be better served by getting off the Opium of massive government redistribution. If you refuse to believe that, you are only fooling yourself.

      The idea that the Right will be the savior of humanity and the disadvantaged is unbelievably laughable.
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Are you saying they are slaves? They are paid for their work. I don't know what Fr8Mech does for a living, but from his income I presume that he did not quit school at 16 or run around in a gang.

You really need to put down the Communist Manifesto (where those arguments came from).

Let us see, in the old days, the real slaves were paid were they not? They were clothed, and fed and housed, that could be construed as compensation for toil. Were they slaves? According to the slave owners, it was a great system, according to history, they were slaves. Economic slaves, then and now, no difference. Spare me the bull about the Communist Manifesto. You guys could have made Joe Stalin proud, now he was a Communist you guys could admire. Certainly not the bleeding heart kind.   
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:54 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 42):

Oh....
My....
God.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
LAXintl
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:58 am

Sorry for the late response on this one. Forgot in my previous post.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Sweden

Well when I lived in Sweden it was under the long serving prime minister of Olof Palme who shaped Sweden from the 60s thru his assassination in 1986.

Palme was extremely far left, as I recall he called himself some form of "revolutionary". Much of his domestic social policies were one notch short of formal communism, and worked to further instilled the costly cradle to grave social concept.
He was considered pro-Soviet, went out of his way to snub his nose at US and openly criticized our society, had Sweden provide both financial and political support for groups that turned out to be terrorist and revolutionary organization in places like Central America. Certainly not the neutral low key image one thinks of Sweden.
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cws818
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
I thought we were supposed to have a "summit" on Thursday to have a sharing of ideas. Instead we get more leftist propaganda thrown out on the table. So much for setting the stage for a productive meeting.

The White House proposal constitutes a sharing of ideas. What you call propaganda is a set of ideas that are supposedly going to be discussed on Thursday. Disagreeing with those ideas does not detract from the fact that they are ideas.
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WarRI1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:00 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Think what you like, but we believe that humanity, the economy, and yes, the disadvantaged will be better served by getting off the Opium of massive government redistribution. If you refuse to believe that, you are only fooling yourself.

A mighty joke there, dam laughable. Read history before this mighty government give away, see the happy faces, see the educated childen working in the factories, the sweatshops, the mines, the cotton fields. This good era for the common man is not even 80 years old. Talk about fooling oneself, it is right there in front of your noses, try reading it. I forgot, you guys like revisionism.
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fr8mech
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:09 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 35):
And? How about the guy digging a ditch, getting nowhere near your income, how about the factory worker?, how about the trucker?, how about the nursing home worker cleaning up shit, literally? How about the guy cleaning up the yard of the folks who make the barely living wage, like you seem to? I know! You are special, you work hard for your money, what crap! You folks who are screaming use this system more than most, and more than most perpetuate it to stay SPECIAL.

You need to put together a coherent post. Slow down, put down the Little Red Book, and think about what you're trying to say.

Let me tell you about my health care insurance. It's an HSA. Look it up. I take responsibility for my health and my health care.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Are you saying they are slaves? They are paid for their work. I don't know what Fr8Mech does for a living, but from his income I presume that he did not quit school at 16 or run around in a gang.

Ding ding ding. I wasn't born into my salary, I worked for it. But this isn't about me.

My question to all those who seem to want universal healthcare is this:

Why should you have to pay for my health insurance? Give me a compelling answer to that question.

You're going to say the you feel that universal healthcare is a government's moral responsibility and as such, the people whom the government serves (or is it the other way around) share the same moral obligation. Or something like that.

Then answer this one last question: If you feel that healthcare is a universal right, why don't you feel the same way about food? Why are you not petitioning the government to feed evryone?
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WarRI1
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 43):
Oh....
My....
God.


I do not like to be a hypocrite. Sincerity is more my style.  
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
LAXintl
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RE: White House Proposal For Health Care

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38):
And what happens when the insurance company decides they won't pay for a procedure that you need? Or when your provider decides that they will no longer accept your plan? What happens when you fund your own insurance and they drop you because you've just been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Pre-existing condition clauses? Privatized health care isn't exactly all sunshine and roses either.

I'll take my chances. Dont need a nanny state in the mix also.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38):
They went running back to the nationalized system.

And so many don’t, including my own family members that have traveled around shopping for medical procedures overseas and buy supplementary private policies so they can visit any doctor without a government wait, or green light. I think it was France that has become the largest insurance market in Europe thanks to so many private supplemental medical plans residents purchase.

I will try hard to find a Swedish article from last year when members of the Obama administration visited Sweden to review the social systems.
The first thing the government regulators told them was "Don’t copy our system. It’s not sustainable"

I think that says a lot.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):

I'm for individual liberty, and ability to decide and manage my own care thank you.
This government wants to take away and redefine some of those freedoms.
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