TheCommodore
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Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:54 am

Wonder if its got anything to do with the Generals Peteraus and Powell criticizing him, maybe its all getting to much for him ?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10628005
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Ken777
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Wonder if its got anything to do with the Generals Peteraus and Powell criticizing him, maybe its all getting to much for him ?

Probably just indigestion from having to eat his own words after 2 internationally respected Generals basically said he was wrong.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm

Former VP Cheney has had heart problems for years. I doubt this has anything to do with Gen.s Powell and Peteraus comments. I hope and pray he recovers.

  
 
Arrow
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:24 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Former VP Cheney has had heart problems for years.

I didn't think he had a heart.   

Much as I dislike the man, I too hope he recovers from this. Does he have health insurance?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:53 pm

I wonder if his implanted pacemaker is wearing out.....

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
Does he have health insurance?

   Seriously?!
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TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:59 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
Does he have health insurance?

My God I hope so.

A friend of mine had a heart attack in the states 4 years ago, ended up having to sell his house to pay for it..

Not a good situational to be in  Wow!
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dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:20 pm

Quoting ken777 (Reply 1):
Probably just indigestion from having to eat his own words after 2 internationally respected Generals basically said he was wrong.

Which they're free to do, but doesn't make them right.

It was a mild heart attack, his fifth, and he is expected out of the hospital in a few days. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_cheney_hospitalized
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Ken777
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:25 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
Does he have health insurance?

Of course - the taxpayers will be taking care of him for the rest of his life.

Quoting dxing (Reply 6):
Which they're free to do, but doesn't make them right.

And fortunately they are speaking. It's nice to hear the open views of people who have earned the respect of both sides of the political spectrum.
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:24 pm

Quoting ken777 (Reply 7):
Of course - the taxpayers will be taking care of him for the rest of his life.

I rather doubt that. Even Presidents aren't quite that fortunate.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepre...ntandcabinet/a/presidentialpay.htm

Former Presidents and their spouses, widows, and minor children are entitled to treatment in military hospitals. Health care costs are billed to the individual at a rate established by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB). Former Presidents and their dependents may also enroll in private health plans at their own expense.

Former VP Cheney is a wealthy person in his own right. I'm sure he has his own policy.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:11 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
Former VP Cheney is a wealthy person in his own right.

Being on his 5 th heart attack, he'll need to be wealthy, VERY VERY wealthy.

Karmic justice catching up perhaps.... I wonder ?   
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:27 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Being on his 5 th heart attack....

Has anyone ever really survived after their 5th...let alone their 6th heart attack?? The heart can only take so much abuse.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Karmic justice catching up perhaps

Lets keep politics out of this as this has absolutely nothing to do with it. The man has a health problem and that's the topic. He has had heart problems long before he became the VPOTUS.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:43 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
Has anyone ever really survived after their 5th...let alone their 6th heart attack?? The heart can only take so much abuse.

Good question. I wish I knew the correct answer.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Karmic justice catching up perhaps

Lets keep politics out of this as this has absolutely nothing to do with it. The man has a health problem and that's the topic. He has had heart problems long before he became the VPOTUS.

Correct, When Sen. Kennedy was diagnosed with brain cancer, just about every conservitive here wished him well. As a cancer survivor myself, when he died, I was sad.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:18 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
Has anyone ever really survived after their 5th...let alone their 6th heart attack?? The heart
can only take so much abuse.

Absolutely - a heart attack is a blood clot that causes oxygen deprivation and tissue damage, no more or less. The location of occurrence is what determines their severity, among other things. As far as I know, most people who die of heart attacks don't have previous symptoms and/or have dangerous changes in their heart tissue that make them more susceptible to fatal rhythms a heart attack can trigger. Since he had his first at 37 and was a heavy smoker, it's likely he's had regular testing for awhile. As long as people have frequent testing, it's less likely to have fatal attacks as doctors can recommend appropriate changes to your activity level and prescribe medications to lower blood pressure and reduce clotting. My uncle has also had four attacks and is still in great health now at 64 after making some big life changes - he just simply wasn't capable of managing stress in his life and it manifested in his heart.

Obviously for genetic or lifestyle reasons, Cheney is unable to keep his coronary arteries clear. He also had abnormal heart rhythm problems for awhile, and had to have a catheter ablation procedure to correct it.
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MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:32 am

Most expected him to croak in office due to his numerous heart problems when elected. It just goes to show you the miracles that are accomplished everyday when you have federal healthcare insurance where every procedure is available to you regardless of cost.

I expect him to make a speedy recovery.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:41 am

I'll leave the politics out of it and simply wish Mr. Cheney a speedy and full recovery.
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skysurfer
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:43 am

My heart bleeds for him! heh  
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stasisLAX
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:07 am

Think about it - Dick Cheney has had FIVE heart attacks (along with several other heart related procedures) and HE STILL HAS HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!! If it were you or me, regardless of how wealthy we were, NO health insurer in the marketplace would COVER US!!! Hope the ex-VP gets better, and immediately changes his political rantings.  
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TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:34 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 16):
Think about it - Dick Cheney has had FIVE heart attacks (along with several other heart related procedures) and HE STILL HAS HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!! If it were you or me, regardless of how wealthy we were, NO health insurer in the marketplace would COVER US!!!

You gota be kidding, so you mean after accepting your premiums for years and years the minute something goes wrong with you the (the insurer) can cancel the policy, isn't that discrimination ?      

Anyway as I said, he must be very wealthy because maybe he's being charged extra for the cover ?
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MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:19 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
You gota be kidding, so you mean after accepting your premiums for years and years the minute something goes wrong with you the (the insurer) can cancel the policy, isn't that discrimination ?      

Absolutely.

A more effective way of getting rid of sick people after they've paid for years is to double or triple their premiums. For a self-employed person to have family insurance coverage for health people runs $1200 to $1500 a month. Triple that it's $3,600 to $4,500 a month, or even if they "only" double it's $2500 to $3000 a month +/-.

You also have to take into account lifetime maxs that usually are offered with a $1 million max payout over a person's lifetime. Sometimes they are $2 million in lifetime caps. Most people who haven't used America's healthcare system very extensively find out very quickly a "simple" surgery easily runs over $100,000 by the time all the various bills start flowing in from the hospital, the multiple doctors who see you, surgeon, follow up care, etc...

I was in a very serious car accident a few years ago that put me in the ICU and hospital for a few weeks. That bill would easily exceed $600,000 to $700,000 today all over 1 incident. Until you've either been thru it yourself, or know first hand from watching a loved one in your family go thru it and hear the costs can you even probably wrap your brain around it. It really is just insane.
 
baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:33 am

Quoting ken777 (Reply 1):
Probably just indigestion from having to eat his own words after 2 internationally respected Generals basically said he was wrong.

Very droll, but ken, this is not funny. Actually in the clip of what purported to be him toddling into hospital, he looked better than I feel. Anyway, his best moment will for ever be the epic performance at the Inaugurieties of 2009 appearing as Dr S.
 
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OA412
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:44 am

You don't often hear of people suffering their 5th heart attack and living to tell about it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
You gota be kidding, so you mean after accepting your premiums for years and years the minute something goes wrong with you the (the insurer) can cancel the policy, isn't that discrimination ?

Hell yes they can. Those who are part of group policies are usually, though not always, safe, but those who have individual policies often have their policies canceled when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness or have their premiums increased to ridiculous levels. Many insurance policies also carry pre-existing condition clauses which basically means that if you take out a new policy after you've been diagnosed with an illness (say diabetes), the insurer has the right not to cover that particular illness (for a given period of time or forever) under your new policy and you are stuck paying all costs out of pocket. But hey, we don't need healthcare reform in this country...

[Edited 2010-02-24 02:49:25]
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MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:50 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 20):
Hell yes they can. Those who are part of group policies are usually, though not always, safe, but those who have individual policies often have their policies canceled when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness or have their premiums increased to ridiculous levels. But hey, we don't need health care reform in this country...

What's sadder still is the so called conservatives think having an option for a public run program for those who choose it is losing their freedom somehow, as they are currently hauling around a ball and chain of not having the freedom to just change jobs, start their own company, or go to bed terrified of losing their job thus losing coverage. That is "freedom" to them. Slaves to the insurance industry to be sure.

[Edited 2010-02-24 03:43:34]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:03 am

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 18):
Absolutely.

A more effective way of getting rid of sick people after they've paid for years is to double or triple their premiums. For a self-employed person to have family insurance coverage for health people runs $1200 to $1500 a month. Triple that it's $3,600 to $4,500 a month, or even if they "only" double it's $2500 to $3000 a month +/-.

My God, what a disgusting situation. That truly is appalling.   
I had no idea that Insurance in the US was that bad, Have heard the usual sad stories about the cost of operations etc, but had know idea that the premiums were that high, who the hell can afford that every month ?   
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baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:38 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
My God, what a disgusting situation. That truly is appalling.
I had no idea that Insurance in the US was that bad, Have heard the usual sad stories about the cost of operations etc, but had know idea that the premiums were that high, who the hell can afford that every month ?

Lucky Oceans spelled out his recent brush with the US health system.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2009/2509059.htm#
He managed to clock up a USD240,000 bill in about two weeks. Astonishing. But in his case the travel ins covered it. Still the link gives a sobering tale for those of us who grumble about Medicare from time to time.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):

Has anyone ever really survived after their 5th...let alone their 6th heart attack?? The heart can only take so much abuse.

It depends on how much of the heart muscle tissue has been damaged and where. Each attack will leave behind it more nonfuctional scar tissue, but since the diagnostics and awareness has been improved, people might seek and receive medical help with lesser symptoms. His primary heart complaint might be unstable, but less severe. I wonder if any invasive treatment has been performed on him?
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:58 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 16):
Think about it - Dick Cheney has had FIVE heart attacks (along with several other heart related procedures) and HE STILL HAS HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!! If it were you or me, regardless of how wealthy we were, NO health insurer in the marketplace would COVER US!!!

As stated, he's a wealthy man in his own right so I would not be surprised if he can afford a policy or if he isn't self insured with no problems. Also as stated, although I can't confirm, living through 5 heart attacks, I would tend to believe that there is no way they were all major heart attacks or I doubt he'd be here to talk about.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
You gota be kidding, so you mean after accepting your premiums for years and years the minute something goes wrong with you the (the insurer) can cancel the policy, isn't that discrimination ?

And then you can take them to court. The very few situations like this that have have been documented properly, in other words not like the urban legend/boogey man stories supported by only anecdotal evidence, on this forum have clearly shown the insurance company making a U turn.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 21):
What's sadder still is the so called conservatives

Even sadder stilli is liberals that think only the government can do it especially after witnessing the financial loadstones that medicare and SS have become around our collective necks.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
My God, what a disgusting situation.

Don't believe all the boogey man stories. If it were that bad 85% of the country wouldn't continue to poll that they are OK with their insurance. Nor would an ever growing majority poll against government run health care.
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baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:45 pm

Actually a lodestone (sometimes less incorrectly spelled loadstone) is rather high gravity and therefore heavy, but it is more noted for giving a sense of direction. So it is pleasing to read that medicare and SS give a sense of direction to the body politic. Lodestones point most especially towards the N which conventionally (except for Capn Cook) is usually in the direction of "up". Although one has to hope that here SS means Soc Sec and is not a sudden reversion to Godwin's Law.
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):

Actually a lodestone (sometimes less incorrectly spelled loadstone)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Loadstone?jss=1
Which side of the road do you drive on? Is it the wrong side?
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MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:01 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
Even sadder stilli is liberals that think only the government can do it especially after witnessing the financial loadstones that medicare and SS have become around our collective necks.

That would not have ever been the case had Reagan not consolidated the budgets of Social Security with the general funds so his outrageous deficits and his minion George Bush II ran. After the Greenspan / Social Security summit under Reagan all workers started paying in a lot more than the system was paying out, and those surpluses were to be banked and / or pay off other debt so that when the time came for those baby boomers to start collecting and the system would be paying out more than it took in, it would not be a huge burden. Did "conservatives" ever bother to do that? NOOOOOO! The program is fine, but "conservatives" blew their wads on nuclear weapons and war making. Good job guys!

Additionally, Medicare was decimated by Bush II as well by his prescription medicine bill "conservatives" never bothered to fund or pay for. Bush II handed out $1 trillion in new monies, while not taking in one dime to fund it.

Stop blaming the program, and blame the people ("conservatives") who screwed it up royally.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:32 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 28):
That would not have ever been the case had Reagan not consolidated the budgets of Social Security with the general funds so his outrageous deficits and his minion George Bush II ran. After the Greenspan / Social Security summit under Reagan all workers started paying in a lot more than the system was paying out, and those surpluses were to be banked and / or pay off other debt so that when the time came for those baby boomers to start collecting and the system would be paying out more than it took in, it would not be a huge burden. Did "conservatives" ever bother to do that? NOOOOOO! The program is fine, but "conservatives" blew their wads on nuclear weapons and war making. Good job guys!

Additionally, Medicare was decimated by Bush II as well by his prescription medicine bill "conservatives" never bothered to fund or pay for. Bush II handed out $1 trillion in new monies, while not taking in one dime to fund it.

Stop blaming the program, and blame the people ("conservatives") who screwed it up royally.

Nice attempt at revisionest history. President Reagan's SS plan was to stabilize SS in the 1980s through 2017, and the then Democratic Congress did just that, President Reagan signed the bill. It was President Reagan who wanted to take SS "off budget", but the Congress would not do that. It was President Johnson and the Democrats who raped SS in 1966 and 1967 with the Medicare bill and then "borrowing" SS money by putting it into the general fund, to help fund "Johnson's War" in Vietnam. Since 1967, all collected SS taxes (FICA), have gone directly into the general fund and the SSA got an "IOU" from the government. Now, we are facing 2017 and the likelyhood that SS will be paying out more than the government collects in FICA.

Thank you President Johnson and thank you to the Democrat Congresses for screwing us.

BTW, VP Cheney pays for his own health care insurance.
 
baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:42 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):

Actually a lodestone (sometimes less incorrectly spelled loadstone)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Loadstone?jss=1
Which side of the road do you drive on? Is it the wrong side?

If you go to the origin of the term, it comes from Middle English means 'course stone' or 'leading stone' - hence lode not load. But if you drive on the wrong side of the road, I suppose a lodestone would be of marginal assistance in leading you back to a better course. But however you spell it, you will have difficulty in preventing it from giving you an indication of north or from attracting spare nails, whichever you prefer.
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:46 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 28):
That would not have ever been the case had Reagan not consolidated the budgets of Social Security with the general funds so his outrageous deficits and his minion George Bush II ran.

Better check your history books. The unified budget was adopted in 1968 when a liberal democratic President that couldn't make up his mind how to fight a war, wanted everything under sun but didn't know how to pay for it, and wisely decided to be a one "in his own right" term President was in office. We've got two out of three right now, still time to make it three out of three.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 28):
Additionally, Medicare was decimated by Bush II as well by his prescription medicine bill "conservatives" never bothered to fund or pay for.

Here we go again with the school of "two wrongs make a right" thinking. So in other words, since President Bush got a bad program enacted, President Obama is entitled to the same thing? Yep that sure makes sense.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 28):
Stop blaming the program, and blame the people ("conservatives") who screwed it up royally.

OK, the democratic party passed medicare and did not adequately fund it from the beginning, to make matters worse they voted to move the medicare budget from the "off budget" line to the "on budget" line in 1968 where it remains to this day. That explains in part how that program got so in debt. FDR never envisioned SS as being a retirement pension fund as do liberal democrats today so I'll blame them for only creating the unified budget in 1967 and adopted in 1968 which combined the SS trust fund and the general fund to pay for the Vietnam war, the great society programs to include medicaid, entitlement welfare, as well as the space program. Want to blame the people, fine blame the people who got it wrong to begin with, namely the democratic party.
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Arrow
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
Lucky Oceans spelled out his recent brush with the US health system.

We have travel insurance, but my wife's instructions -- should I get sick on US territory -- are to get me the hell back over the border by any means possible, ASAP.

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
And then you can take them to court. The very few situations like this that have have been documented properly, in other words not like the urban legend/boogey man stories supported by only anecdotal evidence, on this forum have clearly shown the insurance company making a U turn.

Great suggestion. A guy who can't afford to pay for medical procedures his insurer won't cover can relax with a warm fuzzy feeling, secure in the knowledge that a high-priced lawyer (which he also can't afford) might get him a big settlement in about, oh, five years -- assuming he's still alive to collect it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
Don't believe all the boogey man stories.

Why not? Americans are fed, by conservatives, a steady diet of boogey-man stories about our atrocious health care system, anecdote after anecdote, to show how much better the private US system is. If it works for them, I guess it works for me too. Our latest "anecdote" involves a provincial premier (Danny Williams) who chose to go to Florida for a tricky heart-valve operation he could have had in any one of half a dozen cardiac centres in Canada (with no waiting lists -- another boogey-man). American conservatives are now trumpeting this as another indication of how our system isn't up to snuff. Needless to say, Williams is a very rich man. I wonder how he'll fare when he's up for re-election.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Since 1967, all collected SS taxes (FICA), have gone directly into the general fund and the SSA got an "IOU" from the government. Now, we are facing 2017 and the likelyhood that SS will be paying out more than the government collects in FICA.

This is what I have the most trouble with. How in god's name can you establish a social safety net -- minimal as it is -- and allow the contributions to be fed into general revenue? This to me transcends the left/right; liberal/conservative cat fights played out in these threads ad infinitum. This isn't an ideological issue, it's fundamental incompetence -- which is clearly pervasive -- and it's been going on for decades. No wonder you're in a mess.

This article is in today's Globe & Mail (I know, a left-wing rag). It suggests that you desperately need to reform health care because the status quo will sink you out of sight economically:

U.S. health-care system to get much sicker unless its paradoxes are resolved

In the $2.5-trillion American health-care system, paradoxical reactions are neither uncommon nor inexplicable. They proliferate for entirely understandable reasons. A system that so skews the incentives faced by doctors, hospitals, workers, employers, insurers and patients is bound to produce unhealthy results - and not just for the almost 50 million Americans without coverage.

The U.S. health-care system is about to become dramatically sicker, unless President Barack Obama can find a defibrillator for his health- reform package.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...doxes-are-resolved/article1479226/

America is running out of time, in my opinion.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:40 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 32):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
Lucky Oceans spelled out his recent brush with the US health system.

We have travel insurance, but my wife's instructions -- should I get sick on US territory -- are to get me the hell back over the border by any means possible, ASAP.

Seems sound advice. I think Lucky lived up to his stage name. Nice prose from the Glode & Mail. It would be interesting to get the memos about Cheney and his ongoing health issues from his insurers. Might be more interesting even than the Pentagon papers!
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 31):
Better check your history books.

You're dead wrong. The main change was in 1983 & some smaller tweaks followed 1985 and 1987 all under Reagan's watch.

Ever since those rounds of ridiculous emails circulated the net about social security to every Tom, Dick & Pass It On To Everyone Guy, conservatives have blamed Johnson hoping to change the core responsibility of the fiasco.

http://web.archive.org/web/199706170...www.ssa.gov/OACT/ASKACT/part6.html which is from Office of the Chief Actuary of Social Security Administration dated January 10, 1997 might help you.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Nice attempt at revisionest history. President Reagan's SS plan was to stabilize SS in the 1980s through 2017,

Right that's what he was supposed to do. Previous to this the inflows / outflows were slightly + some years, slightly - others. It was the crush of the baby boomers for which massive inflows started coming in under Reagan who promptly blew every additional nickel and dime and then some to buy weapons and fight the cold war. How many budget bills did Reagan veto that ultimately passed over his objections?

I know modern day "conservatives" like to worship St. Ronnie, but nostalgia is just that.

http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Reagan'sLegacy.htm
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:47 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 32):
Great suggestion. A guy who can't afford to pay for medical procedures his insurer won't cover can relax with a warm fuzzy feeling, secure in the knowledge that a high-priced lawyer (which he also can't afford) might get him a big settlement in about, oh, five years -- assuming he's still alive to collect it.

That's why cheap lawyers, like former Sen. Edwards, take cases based on a percentage of the award.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 32):
Why not? Americans are fed, by conservatives, a steady diet of boogey-man stories about our atrocious health care system, anecdote after anecdote, to show how much better the private US system is.

Any time I have used an example from Canada I have provided the link to the story or stories which back up the claim.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 34):
You're dead wrong.

From your own link.

http://web.archive.org/web/199706170...www.ssa.gov/OACT/ASKACT/part6.html

Beginning in fiscal year 1969, Social Security and other Federal programs that operate through trust funds were counted officially in the budget. This was done administratively by President Johnson. At the time Congress did not have a budget-making process. In 1974 Congress adopted procedures for setting budget goals through passage of annual budget resolutions. Like the budgets prepared by the President, these resolutions were to reflect a "unified" budget that included trust fund programs such as Social Security in the budget totals.

Beginning in the late 1970s, Social Security faced financial problems, and over a period of time legislation was enacted to restore the financial health of the program. However, because the Federal budget deficit remained large, interest in reducing Social Security spending continued. This routine consideration of Social Security constraints led to concerns that cuts in Social Security were being proposed for budgetary purposes rather than programmatic ones.



Care to revise your statement?

Also from your link:

In response to this concern, a series of measures were enacted in 1983, 1985, and 1987 making the program a more distinct part of the budget and permitting Congressional floor objections (points of order) to be raised against budget bills containing Social Security changes.

Which party was in charge of Congress at those times? They didn't change the spending, just changed the the way the accounting for it was done.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:00 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
You gota be kidding, so you mean after accepting your premiums for years and years the minute something goes wrong with you the (the insurer) can cancel the policy, isn't that discrimination ?

And then you can take them to court. The very few situations like this that have have been documented properly, in other words not like the urban legend/boogey man stories supported by only anecdotal evidence, on this forum have clearly shown the insurance company making a U turn.

So you spend the next 3 years in court fighting a massive insurance company......  

That would be enough to give you another heart attack..... NO thnaks

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
Don't believe all the boogey man stories. If it were that bad 85% of the country wouldn't continue to poll that they are OK with their insurance. Nor would an ever growing majority poll against government run health care.


Ah, but 85% haven't had 5/6 heart attacks thought have they ?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
BTW, VP Cheney pays for his own health care insurance.

Wonder what insurance company he uses ?, they seen generous to be still covering him even with those premiums !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:18 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
But however you spell it,

Yes...how do you spell it?

http://www.irrationalsigns.com/road-signs/aussie2.jpg

or minimize?
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dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
So you spend the next 3 years in court fighting a massive insurance company......

And then you're a multi-millionaire set for life since we don't have tort reform nationally here.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
Ah, but 85% haven't had 5/6 heart attacks thought have they ?

So let me get this straight....we're supposed to base our health care policy on an absolutely extreme minority of cases? Now that makes sense.
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MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
So you spend the next 3 years in court fighting a massive insurance company......  

More like 5 to 6 years given how clogged the courts are. Then another 2 years if win as the insurance company appeals the decision. And then you still have to collect after all of that.

Exxon didn't pay one dime in punitive damages until last year. The final balance will be paid out this year sometime. It has take 21 years for people to see this money. America's legal system is a joke.


http://www.exspill.com/

http://www.faegre.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=2881
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:06 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 38):
And then you're a multi-millionaire set for life since we don't have tort reform nationally here.

Really, provided you win, and there is NO guarantee of that fighting these sorts of insurance companies. And there is nothing to say your going to be awarded millions, is there?   

Quoting dxing (Reply 38):
So let me get this straight....we're supposed to base our health care policy on an absolutely extreme minority of cases? Now that makes sense.

Couldn't get any worse than it already is could it.. What exactly is the American health care based on now anyway, apart from making the drug companies richer than they already are. Doesn't seem to me like its very equitable system on the way its now based

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 39):
More like 5 to 6 years given how clogged the courts are. Then another 2 years if win as the insurance company appeals the decision. And then you still have to collect after all of that.

That seem's more like it to me. These guys will stop at nothing to break you financially, well before the case is even finished
        
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:47 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 40):
Really, provided you win, and there is NO guarantee of that fighting these sorts of insurance companies. And there is nothing to say your going to be awarded millions, is there?

There is nothing to say they won't and most cases don't even get to court. There is an out of court settlement and both parties walk away.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 40):
Couldn't get any worse than it already is could it..

Sure, we could end up with Obama care. I don't care how well your government takes care of you. Our government has repeatedly shown itself to be completely inept at managing finance and social programs.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 40):
Doesn't seem to me like its very equitable system on the way its now based

Then you'll have to explain why 70-85% of the population repeatedly polls that they are happy with the health insurance they have and the health care they receive.
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OA412
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:13 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
And then you can take them to court.

Yeah that sounds like a load of fun.

Quoting dxing (Reply 25):
The very few situations like this that have have been documented properly, in other words not like the urban legend/boogey man stories supported by only anecdotal evidence, on this forum have clearly shown the insurance company making a U turn.

As opposed to the urban legend/boogey man stories posted here all the time about how god awful healthcare is in Canada and Europe even though the facts don't back any of it up?

By the way, I'm not offering anectodal evidence or urban legends. I've seen first hand diabetics who are paying outrageous premiums and peope dropped from group medical plans because the insurance company decided it would be too expensive to insure them. The early years of the AIDS epidemic are littered with stories of people being dropped from their insurance or denied outright after testing postive.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 40):
Really, provided you win, and there is NO guarantee of that fighting these sorts of insurance companies. And there is nothing to say your going to be awarded millions, is there?

     

[Edited 2010-02-24 15:18:37]

[Edited 2010-02-24 15:19:23]
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:34 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 24):
I wonder if any invasive treatment has been performed on him?

IIRC, the his docs did install/implant a pacemaker in his chest. I don't know if that means anything or not as I don't know squat about medicine.
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dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:30 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
As opposed to the urban legend/boogey man stories posted here all the time about how god awful healthcare is in Canada and Europe even though the facts don't back any of it up?

As I said in reply # 35...

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Any time I have used an example from Canada I have provided the link to the story or stories which back up the claim.

The same would be true of any other country as well. If I can't back it up I don't use it. As to what others do, that is their problem.
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baroque
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:58 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 37):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
But however you spell it,

Yes...how do you spell it?

http://www.irrationalsigns.com/road-signs/aussie2.jpg

or minimize?

Has it really taken until now for you to notice differences in US spelling compared with forms used in the UK, Can and Aus??

From Wiki
Use of "ise" does specifically distinguish British spelling, as while technically both forms are to some extent acceptable in the UK, that is not the case in the US.
It should also be noted that it's a bit more complicated in British English than both versions being acceptable. Some words are much more commonly spelt with an "s" (for example, organisation). There is also I believe a blacklist of words that must be spelt with "ise" to be correct in British English - i.e. to ensure correct spelling in British English, a safe rule is to always use the ise form (excepting the obvious "always z" forms, e.g. prize, though not surprise).
The EU [2] uses the "s" version for "organisation" in particular - as do the Irish [3] and British [4] governments. A more extensive evaluation would be necessary to discern general practice, although it is likely that mostly the "s" forms are used, with an occasional "z" creeping in. A cursory browse of the official websites linked seems to confirm the use of "s" forms.
From my experience, I would say that the use of "z" forms is increasingly being perceived as US spelling.


Begins to look as if the key to better health treatment is to avoid places that spell optional words with a "z" rather than an "s".

As to MR and torture during WWII, there are documented examples both ways. It appears that at least one occasion a U boat crew was given harsh treatment on the excuse that they knew about possible V1 attacks on NY. Allied prisoners were happy to be taken out of civilian or Gestapo hands into normal military captivity.

The British seem to have obtained considerable amounts of intelligence - useful intelligence too - simply by allowing prisoners to meet and talk to each other, near microphones. By contrast the US got no useful information from that U-boat crew, which was not surrpising as they "knew nothing". So it might not be true that WWII never saw torture, any appraisal of that long and sad war tended to show conclusively that methods of interrogation other than torture were far more successful.

When Scharnhorst was sunk, UK intell were furious that the (few) prisoners had been interrogated aboard Duke of York. They were not annoyed at the use of violence (AFAIK there was none used), but at the prisoners being asked leading questions and allowed time to consolidate a fabricated account of the sinking.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:37 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Has it really taken until now for you to notice differences in US spelling compared with forms used in the UK, Can and Aus??

Don't fall for the "conservatives" that desperately try to change the subject so people notice they have no retort and no answer for the charges lodged at them. If someone doesn't realize that it can be spelled realise then they are obtuse or have never traveled, or in this case trying to change the subject.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
The early years of the AIDS epidemic are littered with stories of people being dropped from their insurance or denied outright after testing postive.

I have 4 clients who are older than I am, but were given a death sentence in the late 80s/early 90s when they were in their late teens / twenties and told they had AIDS and only months to live. Luckily for them, the treatments that were developed to treat AIDS, which became known as HIV saved their lives. All 4 of my clients / friends now have undetectable levels of HIV in the blood and semen. Unfortunately, that is not the case with their financial condition. All 4 of them owe hundreds of thousands of dollars to the health system and their credit ruined because they couldn't pay for a drug that cost them 10 and 15 years ago $3,000 a month, back then. My good friend Carl was spending $60,000 a year on medicine of after tax income. He's a Vice President making $200K now, and still can't come anywhere near paying for his back due bills and fights creditors every week, even after they can no longer legally collect. It's ridiculous.
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney In Hospital With Chest Pains!

Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:58 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Has it really taken until now for you to notice differences in US spelling compared with forms used in the UK, Can and Aus??


Yet who gets banged up by the legitimate (as documented) spelling of the word loadstone here?   


Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
Don't fall for the "conservatives" that desperately try to change the subject so people notice they have no retort and no answer for the charges lodged at them. If someone doesn't realize that it can be spelled realise then they are obtuse or have never traveled, or in this case trying to change the subject.


And now a second person has to chime in and try and make it sound as if I started it!!!   

Looks like all is well as can be with the former VP. Discharged yesterday and out for some R&R. Get well soon Mr. Cheney!   

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...ut_of_hosp_after_heart_attack.html


WASHINGTON - Former Vice President Dick Cheney was discharged from George Washington University Hospital on Wednesday, two days after suffering a mild heart attack, his fifth.

End of story!!!   
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