EA772LR
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The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:18 pm

I just bought a 27" i5 Quad Core 2.66Ghz iMac upgraded with 8GB RAM, and have to say I'm more than blown away with the performance. As a professional musician and doing a lot of work in the studio, this computer is more than enough to handle the tasks I do. The LED 27" monitor is astoundingly sharp, and fit and finish top notch. Anyone else have the i5 or i7 iMac?
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:09 pm

iMac 27" i7 here, also with 8GB at this point (and an additional display connected).

I'm still waiting for the price of a 16GB set to come down a bit, although I could put it to good use even now.

Both the rather fast quad-core CPU and especially the display were my reasons to go for it – I had never considered an iMac before, but after a good two months in heavy use I must say it does indeed fulfill my expectations completely.

Very pleasant to use, no problems.

The much higher resolution relative to my previous primary display helps a lot keeping more information at hand in more complex working environments. Even with Exposé, nothing beats actual screen resolution.
 
EA772LR
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:13 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Both the rather fast quad-core CPU and especially the display were my reasons to go for it – I had never considered an iMac before, but after a good two months in heavy use I must say it does indeed fulfill my expectations completely.

Yeah you know the i5 and especially i7 are turning faster numbers than even the current MacPros. Obviously due to the new i5 and i7 processors not yet available in the MacPro. The 27" LED screens are absolutely marvelous. No offense to PC users, but Mac is a step ahead than anything else offered in the iMac class as a total package.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:22 pm

guys i think we are gonna start another PC-MAC war  ..and i smell a lock...like the other thread
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:42 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 3):
guys i think we are gonna start another PC-MAC war  ..and i smell a lock...like the other thread

This thread has a very different main topic and the controversial stuff has already been done in the other thread at length so there really isn't much of an incentive to rehash it here.
 
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Revelation
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:00 pm

I hear those things come with really nice monitors...

                       
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Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:06 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I hear those things come with really nice monitors...

True. 
 
waterpolodan
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:48 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):

I'm still waiting for the price of a 16GB set to come down a bit, although I could put it to good use even now.

You really are running enough applications that you need more than 8 gigs of ram?? Damn, that's some intensive computing. I've got 4 gigs on my laptop and with my 32-bit version of windows I can only access 3.2 gigs worth, and that's plenty for my needs, but I'm hardly a computing professional.
 
FX772LRF
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting waterpolodan (Reply 7):
You really are running enough applications that you need more than 8 gigs of ram?? Damn, that's some intensive computing. I've got 4 gigs on my laptop and with my 32-bit version of windows I can only access 3.2 gigs worth, and that's plenty for my needs, but I'm hardly a computing professional.

It's all a bragging point these days. Really, for bare-bones computing, you can use 1GB of RAM, and you'll be fine. Hell, my FS rig only has 1GB, and it can run FSX pretty decently.

I'm sort of curious as to why Apple provides an option for 8 or 16GB of RAM. It's not like you're going to be playing Flight Simulator on it (without Bootcamp). I'd be intrigued to find out what you'd have to do on an iMac or Mac of any kind of use up all 8 or 16GB of the RAM.

-Noah   
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asuflyer05
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:03 am

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
I just bought a 27" i5 Quad Core 2.66Ghz iMac upgraded with 8GB RAM, and have to say I'm more than blown away with the performance. As a professional musician and doing a lot of work in the studio, this computer is more than enough to handle the tasks I do. The LED 27" monitor is astoundingly sharp, and fit and finish top notch. Anyone else have the i5 or i7 iMac?

I have the same machine. I love it.
 
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cpd
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:19 am

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 8):
I'd be intrigued to find out what you'd have to do on an iMac or Mac of any kind of use up all 8 or 16GB of the RAM.

THis is for us folks who do video editing, run photoshop, illustrator and others all at the same time. We need every bit of power we can get.

And we don't want to spend AUD$11,000 on a Mac Pro. I've got a 27 inch iMac Core i7 920 8gb 1TB machine coming on Monday. Can't wait. I'll also have an additional display connected.

[Edited 2010-03-04 17:20:08]
 
Zentraedi
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:19 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
Yeah you know the i5 and especially i7 are turning faster numbers than even the current MacPros. Obviously due to the new i5 and i7 processors not yet available in the MacPro.

Actually, the current MacPros use chips based on the same Nehalem architecture used for the i5 and i7 chips in the iMac.

Quoting waterpolodan (Reply 7):
You really are running enough applications that you need more than 8 gigs of ram?? Damn, that's some intensive computing. I've got 4 gigs on my laptop and with my 32-bit version of windows I can only access 3.2 gigs worth, and that's plenty for my needs, but I'm hardly a computing professional.

Try running virtual machines. I've 8 GB in my MacBook Pro and 24 GB in my desktop, and I still would like more to play around with.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:59 am

Quoting waterpolodan (Reply 7):
You really are running enough applications that you need more than 8 gigs of ram??

Frequently. Right now I have 10 major and 7 minor applications open with a total of 69 windows across two monitors (2560*1440 + 1600*1200), plus various background processes. And it's often more than that during work.

At this time I don't even have VMWare running, which adds complete Windows or Linux installations with their own additional resource requirements on top of that.

Like Windows versions since Vista, Mac OS X has always used a compositing display engine, so it uses additional RAM for keeping the graphical window images in the background (either on the graphics card or in CPU RAM).

And also like newer Windows versions, it uses any RAM that's left over as a harddisk cache to speed up file operations.

With everything that's going on at 8GB RAM the system will still start to swap virtual memory to disk at some point. And if that happens more frequently (it does more than just occasionally on my machine), expanding RAM will usually provide a real speedup.

So upgrading to 16GB would indeed make my machine faster especially when it matters the most. The bigger DIMMs are just still relatively expensive, so I'll probably wait until the expected speedup starts mattering more than the price I'd have to pay...
 
AverageUser
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:14 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 3):
guys i think we are gonna start another PC-MAC war ..and i smell a lock...like the other thread

Don't worry, the lock only comes after I chime in!  
 
Zentraedi
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Like Windows versions since Vista, Mac OS X has always used a compositing display engine, so it uses additional RAM for keeping the graphical window images in the background (either on the graphics card or in CPU RAM).

Quartz Extreme, the Mac equivalent of Aero, wasn't introduced until 10.2 (Jaguar)
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:50 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 14):
Quartz Extreme, the Mac equivalent of Aero, wasn't introduced until 10.2 (Jaguar)

No.

Aero is Microsoft's copy of Aqua, the user interface layer of Mac OS X (and even through its name clearly aping it – it seems Microsoft can't create anything original).

Quartz is the graphical 2D drawing framework which also provides the compositing functionality which Aqua uses, and all these parts have been in place right from the start of Mac OS X in 2000.

Quartz Extreme was merely the first version of Quartz which used hardware acceleration, actually not changing anything significantly apart from increasing performance. Before it, all the compositing was done entirely by the CPU, but it was already fully present.

The conceptual step in user interface design and inner functionality Microsoft took belatedly with the introduction of Windows Vista just mirrored the introduction of Mac OS X 10.0 six years earlier.
 
EA772LR
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:12 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
The conceptual step in user interface design and inner functionality Microsoft took belatedly with the introduction of Windows Vista just mirrored the introduction of Mac OS X 10.0 six years earlier.

Yeah I firmly believe after using a Mac personally for 15 years, and having a father who has used a Mac since 1985, that much of the brilliance is in the OS. OS X 10.6.2 (Snow Leopard) is just brilliant.

On a side note, any of you Mac users tried the sampling of Google's Chrome? I still prefer Firefox 3.6 as my browser.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:38 pm

With Chrome I don't really like the amount of information it feeds to Google (naturally, since that is their business model). And I have the WebKit engine with Safari and other browsers already, so I don't see much of an attraction for me.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:31 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Aero is Microsoft's copy of Aqua, the user interface layer of Mac OS X (and even through its name clearly aping it – it seems Microsoft can't create anything original).

Quartz is the graphical 2D drawing framework which also provides the compositing functionality which Aqua uses, and all these parts have been in place right from the start of Mac OS X in 2000.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Like Windows versions since Vista, Mac OS X has always used a compositing display engine, so it uses additional RAM for keeping the graphical window images in the background (either on the graphics card or in CPU RAM).

The graphics card part didn't happen till Quartz Extreme, yet you claim that OSX always had it.

Even then, the backing store wasn't moved completely to the video card until 10.4.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Quartz Extreme was merely the first version of Quartz which used hardware acceleration, actually not changing anything significantly apart from increasing performance. Before it, all the compositing was done entirely by the CPU, but it was already fully present.

It used 3D hardware acceleration, before that compositor still had access to 2D acceleration features when writing to the frame buffer.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
And also like newer Windows versions, it uses any RAM that's left over as a harddisk cache to speed up file operations.

This is still very different from Superfetch used in Windows. While, OSX caching makes reload times fairly quick, Superfetch also makes initial loads quicker. Just as an example, I upgraded both my MacBook Pro w/ 8GB of RAM and one my Win7 PCs with 8GB of RAM to SSDs (actually 2 SSDs in RAID0 on the PC). In terms of initial app load time, their was a huge difference on the MacBook in OSX, whereas on Win7, the impact of the SSD was only really noticeable in terms of boot time and other file operations.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 16):
On a side note, any of you Mac users tried the sampling of Google's Chrome? I still prefer Firefox 3.6 as my browser.

Well, I use Chromium nightly builds and they're a bit faster than Firefox. I still run into sites with compatibility problems though, so I have to keep Firefox around. I don't use Safari because it doesn't have the plugins I need.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:47 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 18):
The graphics card part didn't happen till Quartz Extreme, yet you claim that OSX always had it.

Just read my actual posts again.

I was talking about CPU RAM, not graphics card RAM.

And graphical backing stores in CPU RAM have been a reality since 10.0 and still are. They are the primary reason why OSes with compositing graphics engines use much more CPU RAM than their respective predecessors, but in return they avoid the ugly redrawing of newly exposed window regions and usually provide a smooth, real-time UI behaviour.
 
AverageUser
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:36 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Aero is Microsoft's copy of Aqua, the user interface layer of Mac OS X (and even through its name clearly aping it – it seems Microsoft can't create anything original).

I thought Apple vs Microsoft battles were verboten by a recent order?

If they're not so any longer, may we start again, pretty please?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I hear those things come with really nice monitors...

I just bought a 24" Samsung widescreen... very nice too.

After 3 years with MAC, I'm happy to be back on the dark side  
 
Ken777
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 8):
It's all a bragging point these days. Really, for bare-bones computing, you can use 1GB of RAM,

My bare bones computing started with 64K of RAM - upgraded from 16K.

Now we're talking GBs - the MBs days are long gone.

With a TB probably not that far in the future.

As for the new iMac, I'm still drooling over it. Just like I'm drooling over the new iPad due out soon that my wife has already said I can't have (even before I had a chance to mention that it would be nice to have) so all I can do is have plenty of paper towels around to wipe off the drool.  
 
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cpd
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:22 am

Unfortunately the iMac has turned to tears. The Mac side of things didn't have everything configured properly - I can not see my email through Entourage (Exchange server), and Premiere can't read the source videos..   Even with my best efforts to configure it properly, it still doesn't work.  

On the PC (Windows) side of things, email does work - but CS4 isn't installed. Argh! So I'm back to my old Lenovo. And the iMac screen is as bad as I thought it would be - it reflects like a mirror, very irritating.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:50 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 23):
Unfortunately the iMac has turned to tears. The Mac side of things didn't have everything configured properly - I can not see my email through Entourage (Exchange server), and Premiere can't read the source videos..   Even with my best efforts to configure it properly, it still doesn't work.

I can't say anything about Entourage as I don't use that. Since Snow Leopard (which your new machine should have), Apple Mail can also access Exchange accounts directly. It may be a viable alternative if you can't get Entourage to work with Microsoft's support (if not in any case).

As to Premiere, I don't use that either, but I would normally expect that multi-platform Applications should be able to read files of the respective other version. Or are they widely differing version numbers? What does the manufacturer support have to say?

Quoting cpd (Reply 23):
On the PC (Windows) side of things, email does work - but CS4 isn't installed. Argh! So I'm back to my old Lenovo. And the iMac screen is as bad as I thought it would be - it reflects like a mirror, very irritating.

As I've said before, when you frequently have relatively dark images on the screen it will depend a lot on your lighting situation whether the reflections can be a problem or not. With almost always dark text on white backgrounds I don't have a problem with it, but for image or video processing a separate matte display can be advantageous, especially if your workplace is badly lit (meaning the light coming from your back in this case).
 
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cpd
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
As to Premiere, I don't use that either, but I would normally expect that multi-platform Applications should be able to read files of the respective other version. Or are they widely differing version numbers? What does the manufacturer support have to say?

I think it's codecs to be honest - the raw video was created using Camtasia (Techsmith codec). I eventually got fed up and used my old PC.

I have lights everywhere around my workarea, it's the consequence of open plan offices, there are nearby two rows of fluorescent lights on the ceiling that are nothing short of blinding. :eek: I wish Apple would offer the matte screen finish option on iMac.

It's also not quite as fast as I thought either - it's only an i7 870 (or whatever the 2.8ghz one is). I notice my PC (with 2gb less ram and a Core i7 920) is noticeably faster.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
I think it's codecs to be honest - the raw video was created using Camtasia (Techsmith codec). I eventually got fed up and used my old PC.

Eww... never even heard of that one. Is that codec part of the application itself under Windows but not under Mac OS X or is it a separate Windows-only installation?

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
I have lights everywhere around my workarea, it's the consequence of open plan offices, there are nearby two rows of fluorescent lights on the ceiling that are nothing short of blinding. :eek:

That sounds pretty much like a nightmare for any kind of image processing.

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
I wish Apple would offer the matte screen finish option on iMac.

It's not quite that simple... with the separate glass pane in front of the panel that would not be possible without a massive loss or sharpness.

With matte displays you'd lose a lot of contrast in your lighting conditions – it's a tradeoff either way, but screen blinds could possibly help you to reduce the effect.

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
It's also not quite as fast as I thought either - it's only an i7 870 (or whatever the 2.8ghz one is). I notice my PC (with 2gb less ram and a Core i7 920) is noticeably faster.

The 6GB machine has three memory channels vs. two in the 8GB one. With highly data-intensive tasks like video this can actually make a difference in some cases.
 
bhill
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:21 pm

Wow.....it looks so..................yummy........
Carpe Pices
 
racko
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:49 am

I have a question regarding the Displayport of the 27" iMac. I understand that you can use it as an external display for other devices, but can you actually run just the display and not the computer itself?
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:53 am

Quoting racko (Reply 28):
I have a question regarding the Displayport of the 27" iMac. I understand that you can use it as an external display for other devices, but can you actually run just the display and not the computer itself?

No, the computer will always have to be on as well. You can switch between the external source and the internal image on the fly (with a key combination), but it is not possible to have only the display on and the computer asleep as far as I know.
 
racko
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:11 am

OK, thanks. Pity though, but I guess there's not enough demand to spend development time on that.
 
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cpd
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:32 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
The 6GB machine has three memory channels vs. two in the 8GB one. With highly data-intensive tasks like video this can actually make a difference in some cases.

Better reason - and I forgot it before.

The PC which I built myself has far superior cooling than the iMac so the i7 920 "turboboosts" itself up to 2.93ghz (or higher in cool conditions), and then throttles back if it gets too warm. The NVidia GTX295 also probably helps.

The iMacs are incredibly cramped inside - and it is amazing how much stuff they've managed to squeeze inside them. I don't imagine they'd use the turboboost feature of the Core i7 processor for that reason.

I still don't have my new Mac.   Argh... But the rush is over - the worst of the video editing is done, the deadline was this afternoon, and I managed to meet the deadline, just.  
 
Zentraedi
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
The PC which I built myself has far superior cooling than the iMac so the i7 920 "turboboosts" itself up to 2.93ghz (or higher in cool conditions), and then throttles back if it gets too warm. The NVidia GTX295 also probably helps.

With the exception the Mac Pro, pretty much all Macs suffer from terrible cooling design for the sake of aesthetics. The worst offender would probably have to be the Time Machine. Only a nut would buy one of those. Want your backup data in non-redundant, non-parity protected storage, with inadequate cooling causing it to be prone to heat death?
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:00 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
The PC which I built myself has far superior cooling than the iMac

How so?

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
so the i7 920 "turboboosts" itself up to 2.93ghz (or higher in cool conditions), and then throttles back if it gets too warm.

The i7 in the iMac goes up to 3.46GHz with Turbo Boost.
http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html

Just to remove an apparent misunderstanding:
The Intel Turbo Boost feature does not require any additional cooling beyond the regular all-cores-fully-loaded thermal envelope (which the iMacs of course cover anyway). It simply repurposes that same thermal overhead for a certain clock boost of a single core (or of two cores in a quad-core) while the thermal load of the other cores is drastically reduced because these other cores are turned off or idle.

General rule: If your computer can run all its cores at full speed and the cooling can keep up with that (which is definitely the case in the iMac), Turbo Boost will generally be available, too.

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
The iMacs are incredibly cramped inside - and it is amazing how much stuff they've managed to squeeze inside them. I don't imagine they'd use the turboboost feature of the Core i7 processor for that reason.

Sure they do. The ideal cooling solution is to have every heat-producing component in a tight air tunnel which is perfused with a continuous airstream. Which, incidentally, is exactly how Apple designs its machines.

Standard tower PC cases are actually relatively unfortunate designs by comparison, since they sacrifice a specific cooling design for generic flexibility of allowing any of a larger number of motherboards with very different component layouts to be installed. In very many cases this results in "dead air pockets" in various places, with several components insufficiently cooled and/or fans running at high rpms with the accompanying noise levels.

Cooling is actually rather difficult to get right for a hobbyist, especially across the entire usage profile. Things like sufficient cooling of secondary components (storage drives, chip sets, CPU voltage regulators etc.) are not easy to judge, not least due to lack of detailed specifications and engineering experience. It is very easy to make crucial mistakes (such as using a CPU cooler which just happens to divert the air flow of the clip-on heat sink/fan assembly away from the voltage regulators).

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 32):
With the exception the Mac Pro, pretty much all Macs suffer from terrible cooling design for the sake of aesthetics.

I can't confirm that overgeneralization from my experience.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 32):
The worst offender would probably have to be the Time Machine.

I have not found the Time Machine software to overheat in any significant way...!   

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 32):
Only a nut would buy one of those. Want your backup data in non-redundant, non-parity protected storage, with inadequate cooling causing it to be prone to heat death?

Ah, you're referring to the Time Capsule network harddisk / WiFi router. I see.

a) Actually, Time Capsule makes backups so much easier even for a distracted layperson, that in most cases it brings a major increase in data security, since most people simply wouldn't have any backup otherwise.

b) I am not aware of a significantly elevated percentage of Time Capsules failing, relative to other comparable solutions.

c) The complexities involved in setting up and managing a theoretically more secure RAID storage module in most cases go far beyond most people's capabilities to safely operate. Which is the crucial point: If you've got a wonderful technical solution, but through your own lack of detailed knowledge you're ruining your data by operator error, where, exactly, is your security win at that point? And things like fire, power supply failure and so on are comparably problematic even for a RAID set.





[Edited 2010-03-09 06:11:23]
 
racko
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:19 pm

Actually, compared to modern GPUs (especially a SLI-Monster like the GTX 295), CPUs don't cause that much heat. Shouldn't be too difficult to cool in a aluminium-case like the iMac. Probably heats up the case a bit.

In General, modern computes aren't that difficult to cool compared to a few years back. As long as you're fine with a mid-range GPU you can build an basically inaudible computer (except for the disc drive) without too much hassle.
 
AverageUser
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:36 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
The complexities involved in setting up and managing a theoretically more secure RAID storage module in most cases go far beyond most people's capabilities to safely operate

It's not a mere theory, hard drives do fail. If a person is unsure of his or her computer abilities re hardware installation, why could he or she not ask for help from the supplier? Once set up, you can forget about it.
Also, one could define the RAID array for hard disk speed increase, not for added redundancy.
 
Klaus
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RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:37 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 34):
Actually, compared to modern GPUs (especially a SLI-Monster like the GTX 295), CPUs don't cause that much heat. Shouldn't be too difficult to cool in a aluminium-case like the iMac. Probably heats up the case a bit.

Indeed. The aluminium back plate does get warm, especially near the exhaust slot. Why waste that huge heat sink when you've got it anyway?

The bigger GPUs are indeed quite a bit more power-hungry (and provide much more computing performance while they're at it), but the quad-core Nehalem CPUs still aren't entirely harmless. At full throttle the i7 in the iMac still dissipates around 100W which will have to be moved out of the machine. Fortunately it's substantially below that most of the time.
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:48 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
I can't confirm that overgeneralization from my experience.

Maybe not your personal experience, but you can't deny that MacBooks and MacBook Pros have suffered from major heat issues. It's also no surprise to anyone that the CPUs in Mac laptops tend to run at least 10C hotter than most other laptops. For some, the design and svelte form factor are an acceptable compromise, but you can't deny the heat issue. It's simply part of Apple and Job's design philosophy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
I have not found the Time Machine software to overheat in any significant way...!   

doh, my mistake. I typed that in a rush. It's difficult when you have a harpy woman around...   

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
a) Actually, Time Capsule makes backups so much easier even for a distracted layperson, that in most cases it brings a major increase in data security, since most people simply wouldn't have any backup otherwise.

I won't deny that it's easy to use. Still, for anyone I would strongly advise going with and Airport Extreme(actually Air Mac Extreme over here) connected to an external hard drive with decent cooling.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):

b) I am not aware of a significantly elevated percentage of Time Capsules failing, relative to other comparable solutions.

Well, I am and if you perused Mac forums you would also aware of the issues. I actually have an AirMac extreme, and that, while usually running warm, occasionally gets hot enough to shut down and need a cooling period.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
c) The complexities involved in setting up and managing a theoretically more secure RAID storage module in most cases go far beyond most people's capabilities to safely operate. Which is the crucial point: If you've got a wonderful technical solution, but through your own lack of detailed knowledge you're ruining your data by operator error, where, exactly, is your security win at that point? And things like fire, power supply failure and so on are comparably problematic even for a RAID set.

It's not hard at all. All one needs is an external drive with decent active cooling. Beyond that, there are external USB enclosures that offer RAID 1 support. Sure, there are many more technical solutions, but at the bare minimum, decent active cooling for the hard drive is major step up in terms of security and reliability.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:27 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 35):
It's not a mere theory, hard drives do fail.

Sure. And I've been preaching about backups extensively around here.

The crucial first step just is: Actually do make a backup!

And that first step is the one most people already fail to make.

After that, I also recommend anyone to have multiple backups on separate media, preferably with off-site storage if possible and always to remain aware of the possibility that any device can break, any medium can turn up unreadable and any saved document can turn out to be corrupted, which should result in the use of smart backup strategies.

The thing is just that it is something most people don't care to think about at all (unless they've already had a major disaster and sometimes not even after that).

The difficulties are not primarily in the technology that's available, they are in the way people tend to use their computing equipment. And not even because they're stupid, but simply because all this stuff is rather abstract and alien to most every-day thinking.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 35):
If a person is unsure of his or her computer abilities re hardware installation, why could he or she not ask for help from the supplier?

They certainly can, but most just don't. (And many suppliers are themselves rather clueless about intelligent security strategies, so even that avenue is not always beneficial in practice.)

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 35):
Once set up, you can forget about it.
Also, one could define the RAID array for hard disk speed increase, not for added redundancy.

Yes, but that can actually increase the risk of losing data, so again you need to make a statistical risk assessment and take the appropriate measures...
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:41 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
And many suppliers are themselves rather clueless about intelligent security strategies, so even that avenue is not always beneficial in practice

Gee, not at least in this country is every professional clueless when it comes to installing a RAID option in a personal computer.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:52 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 39):
Gee, not at least in this country is every professional clueless when it comes to installing a RAID option in a personal computer.

Check again: I didn't say that every service provider was clueless, only many of them, so you're safe.
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
Check again: I didn't say that every service provider was clueless, only many of them, so you're safe.


Could be there's an PC IT professional who is clueless about installing a RAID, but that will be in the same category as a chef who's unsure on how to boil water.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:04 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 41):
Could be there's an PC IT professional who is clueless about installing a RAID, but that will be in the same category as a chef who's unsure on how to boil water.

A fair assumption in principle, but in IT matters it's unfortunately all too common that the food is not fit for eating.
 
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cpd
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:12 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
How so?

You'd better believe it - I've got very efficient airflow through the case - and the very best heatsinks/cooling fans you can get. It runs very cool. It is possible for me to run it much faster than standard - but I generally prevent it from doing that. Despite all that, it runs silent. About the only thing that does make a noise is the fan on the video card - and even that isn't very loud.

I've built computers for many years and I'm very good at building silent and cool running computers - even when using monster GPUs like the GTX-295 (which is what I have at the moment). I'll soon drop the second one in for more speed.  
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:57 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
You'd better believe it - I've got very efficient airflow through the case

With anything based on a conventional case design (which is designed for a lot of things, but *really* good cooling is not among them) I retain my doubts... it's not just about the temperature sensor in the CPU.

When you compare that with a Mac Pro, an iMac or a custom-designed workstation from one of the other serious manufacturers, that's a whole different level.
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:22 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
With anything based on a conventional case design (which is designed for a lot of things, but *really* good cooling is not among them) I retain my doubts... it's not just about the temperature sensor in the CPU.

When you compare that with a Mac Pro, an iMac or a custom-designed workstation from one of the other serious manufacturers, that's a whole different level.

Well of course it's at a different level! With modern aftermarket cases and heat sinks averaging 10 to 20 C lower on just about every temp sensor(cpu, gpu, chipset, hard drives, etc.); Apple and most other OEMs would be ashamed to compare their temps to what many PC gamers run.

Have you actually compared temps? I have, and I know my dual Nehalem system in a Coolermaster Cosmos S case runs much cooler than what I see from equivalent MacPro users.

BTW, yes, my heat sinks and fans are much larger and higher end than what Apple gives you. That also makes them much quieter.

[Edited 2010-03-09 17:29:11]
 
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cpd
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:34 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
With anything based on a conventional case design (which is designed for a lot of things, but *really* good cooling is not among them) I retain my doubts... it's not just about the temperature sensor in the CPU.

I could likely push mine over 3.6ghz if I wanted - and still have it running stable and cool enough, but I'm not one to overclock things in the traditional sense.

Compared with Apple, we use massive and highly efficient heatsinks and large, slow running fans. We move a large amount of air through the case with minimal noise. I have a Antec case at the moment, but it'll soon be replaced by a case done by the design arm of BMW AG.

[Edited 2010-03-09 18:18:01]
 
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cpd
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:10 am

Well - I've got it back - and the iMac is working well so it seems.

But lord do those things get hot! The frame at the top of the screen is almost too hot to touch.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:41 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 47):
But lord do those things get hot! The frame at the top of the screen is almost too hot to touch.

The cooling exhaust slot is at the top. And the fans are modulated to stay as quiet as possible while maintaining safe temperatures for the components at the same time. Knowing the precise properties of all components involved (likely including ones which are not published in general) makes that easier.

These can be interesting:
Temperature Monitor: Description
Hardware Monitor: Description
 
Kent350787
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: The New I5 And I7 IMacs...

Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:19 am

For those of you who already have them, is it worth getting the i5 over the i7, or would i5 with extra RAM be a better investment?

Kent

Back story: we're looking to replace our G4 imac (we have an intel MBP as well) on the desktop. It's just too slow with a big iphoto library (optimised as much as I can) and itunes library shuffled off to the FireWire 400 HDD. We just want it for all the basic household stuff, though I'll probably use my EyeTV to use it as a spare TV too (antenna cabling issue, but oh well)

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