CaliAtenza
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Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:59 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA

hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:02 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

People stopped caring much about this after the communism scares in the 50s, when everyone to your left and right was thought to be a communist. They really don't have much say in modern politics, and they're following is minimal at best.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
evomutant
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:07 pm

Why on Earth would they be banned?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:13 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago

Why would it be banned?
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luckyone
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Why would it be banned?

I agree. Why should it banned? Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to voice their opinion.
 
photopilot
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:31 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

Now that's FUNNY, considering it comes from the "Land of Free Speech". If you have to resort to banning other viewpoints (whether misguided or not), then you are no better than that which you try to silence.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:41 pm

And there is also an American Nazi Party: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party
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474218
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:43 pm

If you would read the book "Mig Pilot" one of the things the helped Lt Belenko decide to defect to the west, was when the political officer was telling him how bad the the Communist Party was treated in the United States. He relized that the United States citizens must have freedom, unlike they were told, because the USSR would never let there be Capitalist Party.
 
windy95
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:47 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):

They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

Given that there are still active Communist and Socialist parties with established platforms, it's hard to say this is actually the case.

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html

http://www.progressivepartyofamerica.org/party-platform

A cursory examination of the above websites, when compared with the following, will yield substantial differences of opinion. While there are several things in the progressive platform that can be enumerated as compatible with Socialist ideas, they are not one and the same ideology though plenty of people see fit to use them interchangeably.

http://www.cpusa.org/cpusa-constitution/

http://socialistparty-usa.org/platform/

This is symptomatic of the way in which the current bottoming out of political discourse has rendered words that once had meaning useless in a lot of discussions.

Just for the sake of disclosure, the platforms I most closely identify with are these:

http://www.modernwhig.org/
http://www.lp.org/platform
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PacNWjet
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:48 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

  

Huh? Are political parties routinely banned in the United States?
 
Airport
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:49 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Just for the sake of disclosure, the platforms I most closely identify with are these:

http://www.modernwhig.org/

Wow, thanks for posting that, I didn't realize there was a modern whig party. I'd say I definitely associate myself with them far more than democrats and republicans.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:20 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 10):
Huh? Are political parties routinely banned in the United States?

They should all be equally banned frankly. Keeps the extremists from organizing to harm Americans. Also forces politicians to campaign based on qualifications rather than platform. George Washington warned us about them.

While I have my beef with the Dems and Reps, the Communists and the Nazis are truly dangerous and psychotic. Freedom of speech is important, but don't forget how these groups siezed power in Germany and Russia. The motives of political parties are simply control.

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NIKV69
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:22 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

Post of the week!

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 10):
Huh? Are political parties routinely banned in the United States?

Thankfully no. I was equally appalled by the OP post but in this country your allowed to think what you want and if your view is considered extreme you don't have to fear bans or censorship. Though you may end up on MSNBC's thought police.
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 11):
Wow, thanks for posting that, I didn't realize there was a modern whig party. I'd say I definitely associate myself with them far more than democrats and republicans.

The Modern Whigs are trying to attract the moderate Democrats and Republican that are disillusioned by those parties as well those with no current party identification because of the lack of a party whose own beliefs closely mirror their own. I fall into the latter category, as while I consider myself a libertarian, I did not agree with everything the Libertarian Party is for. I think that the Modern Whigs stand a good chance as it looks as though the Bob Barr candidacy further splintered the LP in a similar manner as when Pat Buchanan got the Reform Party nomination and splintered that party. If you use Facebook, there is a Modern Whig Party page there as well as a Twitter feed.





Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):

hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a single political party in the US that has been banned. Many of them, especially far-left and far-right parties, just end up fading away because of the strict ballot access laws in many states that end up keeping such parties (as well as many more mainstream third parties and independent candidates) off of the ballot.
 
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:34 pm

There is nothing wrong with the ideal of communism; it's a word which has become associated with actions and beliefs which aren't true to it's original form. Due to human nature it was bound to fail and become what everybody remembers it for though.
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mbmbos
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:47 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

How are progressives and liberals communists? Please explain.
 
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OA412
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:00 pm

Of course it has not been banned. Any true democracy allows for a broad spectrum of political beliefs in order for its citizens to make up their own mind as to which party they will support.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.
Post of the week!

Be honest. Would the two of you really appreciate it if I were to come on here and call right wingers fascists?
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AverageUser
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:08 pm

The long-time leader (1959-2000) was Gus Hall (Arvo Hallberg) of Finnish parentage. [NYT obituary]
 
Rj111
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:21 pm

There's nothing wrong with communism. You probably only think there is due to years of cold-war propaganda.

It's actually a very admirable theory in principal, though, obviously in practise it is rarely effective.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):
It's actually a very admirable theory in principal, though, obviously in practise it is rarely effective

It is NEVER effective, because it is based on a flawed assumption - that all people are equal in ambition, intelligence, integrity, work ethic and so forth. That's simply not true - we are not Borg.

Communism can never be achieved - it always stalls at the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat' phase, if it even gets that far. The State is incapable of voluntarily abandoning control once it has it.
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AirStairs
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):
It's actually a very admirable theory in principal, though, obviously in practise it is rarely effective

It is NEVER effective, because it is based on a flawed assumption - that all people are equal in ambition, intelligence, integrity, work ethic and so forth. That's simply not true - we are not Borg.

Communism can never be achieved - it always stalls at the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat' phase, if it even gets that far. The State is incapable of voluntarily abandoning control once it has it.

I would agree with you and go a step further. Even if communist utopia were somehow attainable, I think there are serious moral problems with it (and I am talking about communist economics, not the thought-control baggage that generally comes with it). Practical considerations aside, I can say that I find capitalism normatively and morally superior to communism.
 
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:13 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
Be honest. Would the two of you really appreciate it if I were to come on here and call right wingers fascists?

Well it seems lately that right wingers have been tagged with racists, violent, hate groups. But try to say that the Liberal/Progressive movement is riddled with Communist/Socialist and everyone gets in a tizzy.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 16):
How are progressives and liberals communists? Please explain.

The Progressive and liberal cause is riddled with communist. Since communism got a bad rap here they had to with a kinder, gentler approach to achieve their agenda.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 12):
While I have my beef with the Dems and Reps, the Communists and the Nazis are truly dangerous and psychotic. Freedom of speech is important, but don't forget how these groups siezed power in Germany and Russia. The motives of political parties are simply control

Agree

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Just for the sake of disclosure, the platforms I most closely identify with are these:

http://www.modernwhig.org/

Thanks for that
 
BMI727
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:30 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

Well, not banned, but most people (except these clowns apparently) realized long ago that Communism doesn't work.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
Any true democracy allows for a broad spectrum of political beliefs

   Even the stupid ones.
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2707200X
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:39 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

Another conservative hit job that cant be backed up because I don't know any liberal including myself who wants to exterminate religion, throw opponents in gulags, kill freedom of speech, paint the flag red and drive a flimsy car. Full freedom of speech, freedom not to be religious or to be of any faith, gay rights, reasonable minimum wage, ergonomic conditions, marketable green technology, safe vehicles, choice in education and in health and equality for women isn't communism and those who don't share your political opinion aren't all stupid, this is not just your America.
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OA412
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:10 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
The Progressive and liberal cause is riddled with communist. Since communism got a bad rap here they had to with a kinder, gentler approach to achieve their agenda.

Not it isn't. You complain about people painting the right wing with a broad brush then you do the same thing to the left wing. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
Well it seems lately that right wingers have been tagged with racists, violent, hate groups. But try to say that the Liberal/Progressive movement is riddled with Communist/Socialist and everyone gets in a tizzy.

Painting entire groups with a broad brush is idiotic no matter who it is you're speaking about. Not all conservatives are racist or violent or belong to hate groups and not all left-wingers espouse communist beliefs. Arguing otherwise is intellectually dishonest and does nothing to further the political discourse in this country.
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AirStairs
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 25):
I don't know any liberal including myself who wants to exterminate religion, throw opponents in gulags, kill freedom of speech, paint the flag red and drive a flimsy car.

Those have nothing to do with communist economic ideology. But communist elites realized early on that they would not be able to implement their economic plans without exterminating religions, killing freedom of speech and throwing dissidents in the gulags. And the reason that they cannot implement communism without doing so is that communist economic ideology goes against what it means to have dignity and higher order intelligence.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:24 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
It is NEVER effective, because it is based on a flawed assumption - that all people are equal in ambition, intelligence, integrity, work ethic and so forth. That's simply not true - we are not Borg.

This is partially true. Marx believed in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." So he recognized differences in ability. What he didn't recognize was a difference in work ethic and drive/ambition. Look, I don't do my job just because it pays a lot; the money is a nice perk. I do it because I'm passionate about it. But it's also a hard job with a lot of risk. Communism, in its purest form, doesn't involve money. It's people literally living in communes in which most property is shared and in which everyone has a job, much like a large family. In true communism, the government disappears.

Communism isn't compatible with the real world. Human civilizations don't work well without governments unless they are composed of very small hunter-gatherer or subsistence farming groups. Groups of 20-30 people living on self-sufficient communes in a gift economy trading stuff around doesn't get planes built or dams or freeways. Or computers or hospitals.

What actually happens in communism, (big surprise) is corruption. But if you read the Communist Manifesto, what Marx proposed was nothing like what Stalin did.
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Maverick623
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:38 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):

They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
The Progressive and liberal cause is riddled with communist. Since communism got a bad rap here they had to with a kinder, gentler approach to achieve their agenda.

Riggghhhtttt......

So, according to you, "conservatives" are completely free of fascist and imperialistic ideas, where as "liberals" are mostly made up of bitter old commies out to destroy America? (Here's a hint: both statements are just plain irrelevant to political discourse.)

Are you for real?
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Rj111
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
This is partially true. Marx believed in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." So he recognized differences in ability. What he didn't recognize was a difference in work ethic and drive/ambition.

Precisely

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 21):
I find capitalism normatively and morally superior to communism.

They are just 2 sides of a coin really. I don't see how one (in a pure form) is particularly more moral than the other.
 
BMI727
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:48 pm

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 24):
drive a flimsy car.

Anyone who thinks that Communism can work should take a ride in a Trabant.   (Or a Chevy...sorry, couldn't resist)

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 29):
They are just 2 sides of a coin really. I don't see how one (in a pure form) is particularly more moral than the other.

Well, that gets into philosophy, and I have better things to think about. I'll take the version of morality that is more profitable please.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LMP737
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:23 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Thread starter):
hmmn interesting..i thought this would have been banned a long time ago...

Probably because once you ban one group who's next?
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Lufthansa411
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:45 am

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 26):
Those have nothing to do with communist economic ideology. But communist elites realized early on that they would not be able to implement their economic plans without exterminating religions, killing freedom of speech and throwing dissidents in the gulags. And the reason that they cannot implement communism without doing so is that communist economic ideology goes against what it means to have dignity and higher order intelligence.

Actually, the exact opposite. Marx specifically wrote that "religion is the opiate of the masses" and that the only way people were going to break free from the master/slave relationship was by opening their eyes, looking at the world around them, and thinking for themselves. Freedom of speech and the gulags were a tactic used by Stalin, and nowhere in the "Communist Manifesto" does it mention that either of these things should be done.

Neo from the Matrix is pretty much right up Marx' alley. He took the pill that allowed him to rise up against the machine that was controlling him, and destroy it.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 21):
I can say that I find capitalism normatively and morally superior to communism.

I am not so sure. Looking at modern history, there has been many attempts at establishing communism, some more pure than others. In fact, until a certain Russian revolutionary leader ended up with an ice pick to his scull, he proposed a version of communism that was pretty much exactly as Marx had envisioned, just with farmers, and not factory workers. The same cannot be said for capitalism. When was the last time a leader held up a copy of the "Wealth of Nations" and tried to go by the book? It has never been even attempted because less radical ideas have already been proven wrong.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Well, not banned, but most people (except these clowns apparently) realized long ago that Communism doesn't work.

Communism the way it was envisioned has never been attempted. A bastardised form of the system was tried and did not work, but communism as envisioned by Marx has never been attempted. Partly, because Marx himself wrote that communism was the system after capitalism. Once there was a master/slave relationship, the "slaves" i.e. the workers, would revolt and change the world.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:13 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
The Progressive and liberal cause is riddled with communist.

Riddled with communists? Is this something you can prove or is this something you uncritically accepted as truth because somebody told you so?
 
afterburner
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:22 am

Calling all liberals and progressives communists is like calling all conservatives members of Ku Klux Klan.
 
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OA412
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:53 am

Quoting afterburner (Reply 35):
Calling all liberals and progressives communists is like calling all conservatives members of Ku Klux Klan.

My point exactly. Neither is true, and doing so only serves to further erode the level of political discourse in this country.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
BMI727
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:57 am

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 33):
Communism the way it was envisioned has never been attempted.

...because it is unrealistic in the real world.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 34):
Riddled with communists?

I can say with some certainty that the only party that is actually riddled with Communists is the Communist party.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:07 am

Saying that all democrats are socialists and communists is obviously a huge exaggeration. But there is an unprecedented number of people in and around this administration who have voiced support for socialism and even communism. You had Van Jones, a self-described communist. He was hired by Valerie Jarrett, whose political mentorship is filled with SDS radicals, and who is widely regarded as Obama's second brain. She has professed her firm beliefs in the ideas of Saul Alinsky, designed to bring about socialism if not communism itself.

Her Mentor, Marlyn Katz, was the SDS radical who supported various violent activities in the 60s, and whose eventual political connections in Chicago established the political and academic careers of Jarrett, Michelle and Barack Obama, Bill Ayers. She established neo-communist political groups like the New American Movement (NAM), Democratic Socialists of America. I could go on and on, but Katz's influence, direct and indirect, is tremendous in the White House today.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
...but Katz's influence, direct and indirect, is tremendous in the White House today.

As reflected how?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Saying that all democrats are socialists and communists is obviously a huge exaggeration. But there is an unprecedented number of people in and around this administration who have voiced support for socialism and even communism. You had Van Jones, a self-described communist. He was hired by Valerie Jarrett, whose political mentorship is filled with SDS radicals, and who is widely regarded as Obama's second brain. She has professed her firm beliefs in the ideas of Saul Alinsky, designed to bring about socialism if not communism itself.

Her Mentor, Marlyn Katz, was the SDS radical who supported various violent activities in the 60s, and whose eventual political connections in Chicago established the political and academic careers of Jarrett, Michelle and Barack Obama, Bill Ayers. She established neo-communist political groups like the New American Movement (NAM), Democratic Socialists of America. I could go on and on, but Katz's influence, direct and indirect, is tremendous in the White House today.

Excellent.

So, 20 years down the road, you could justify calling me a racist pilot after kicking off a drunk black person because my flight instructor had a buddy who worked at the 4th ave jail under Sheriff Joe, who is well known for his anti-illegal-immigrant views, and conducts raids to support them.

And while you're at it, subtly accuse ALPA of controlling me behind the scenes.
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PPVRA
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:46 am

The rise of the capitalist kibbutz

Looks like even in a voluntary system people are dumping communism. In other words, the communists who have been trying the stuff are dumping it.

Once it is forced, there is no way one can claim moral superiority.

[Edited 2010-03-06 20:50:10]
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Superfly
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:53 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

Actaully they're called the Green Party.
The Communist is having far more sucess under the name of the Green Party.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:26 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):

They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

ok yeah i think thats a bit harsh. No i thought the Communist party would have been banned cause of the whole McCarthy witch hunt and the Red Scare back in the 50s and stuff
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
.because it is unrealistic in the real world

its unrealistic because power left in the hands of a few (read the Politburo, etc) will ruin the rest. Plus we are Humans, we all thirst for power in some way or form. Im surprised that China has held out for this long, but they've had to switch to a Capitalist economy. North Korea i can understand because the people have little to no outside exposure. Im also surprised by Cuba as well...
 
474218
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:37 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 42):
ok yeah i think thats a bit harsh. No i thought the Communist party would have been banned cause of the whole McCarthy witch hunt and the Red Scare back in the 50s and stuff

The McCarthy were not a "witch hunt" but an investigation into "communist infiltration of the US Government".
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:28 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 44):

well officially it was "an investigation" but in the end it turned out to be a "witch hunt" sadly.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:41 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

   They have pulled the wool over blue collar democrats.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):

They just call themselves progressives and liberals now.

Given that there are still active Communist and Socialist parties with established platforms, it's hard to say this is actually the case.
http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/mantwo.asp
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 15):
There is nothing wrong with the ideal of communism; it's a word which has become associated with actions and beliefs which aren't true to it's original form. Due to human nature it was bound to fail and become what everybody remembers it for though.

Tell those millions who died in the gulags, that there is nothing wrong with communism. It is a failed concept, it makes everyone poor, except for the new ones who grab power. Young adults know nothing of communism in these days, the waiting in lines all day for one chicken or loaf of bread. Being thrown in jail, for what they call in America"freedom of speech."

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):
There's nothing wrong with communism. You probably only think there is due to years of cold-war propaganda.

Stalin killed more of his own citizens than Hitler, but there is nothing wrong with communism. Communism is fine as long as you toe the party line.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
So, according to you, "conservatives" are completely free of fascist

It can be argued that fascists and nazis are just more left wing organizations.
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:56 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Excellent.

So, 20 years down the road, you could justify calling me a racist pilot after kicking off a drunk black person because my flight instructor had a buddy who worked at the 4th ave jail under Sheriff Joe, who is well known for his anti-illegal-immigrant views, and conducts raids to support them.

And while you're at it, subtly accuse ALPA of controlling me behind the scenes.

Very well said. We're talking about what someone did in the 60s with no proof that they still espouse those same radical beliefs today. I seem to recall that whenever anyone brought up the fact that GWB was an alcoholic and a drug user, conservatives were very quick to point out that he had been to rehab and that this behavior was in his past.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):
They have pulled the wool over blue collar democrats.

No they haven't. The only party that has pulled the wool over the ideas of blue collar workers is the republican party with its demonization of the left as liberal elites and its lies about being the party of the people. Then once elected, Republican representatives very quickly forget about about all of those who got them elected and go back to supporting their special interests and traditional voter base.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):
It can be argued that fascists and nazis are just more left wing organizations.

No it cannot and I'd love to see you try and prove otherwise. I find it incredibly funny that the only people in this thread who have painted with broad brush strokes and labeled an entire group of people as supporters of a specific ideology are the right wingers. If anyone comes onto these boards and says that all right wingers are racists or fascists, etc. you'll all be on here within seconds shouting them down and reminding them that you can't apply a label to an entire group of people when their beliefs are so nuanced.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):
Stalin killed more of his own citizens than Hitler, but there is nothing wrong with communism. Communism is fine as long as you toe the party line.

I've noticed that some people on the right like to bring this up from time to time. What exactly is your point? That as a result of killing fewer of his own people, Hitler is somehow a better person? Hitler was a monster, and trying to qualify his crimes by saying that someone killed more is disgusting as far as I'm concerned.


[Edited 2010-03-07 13:14:42]

[Edited 2010-03-07 13:25:10]
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:09 pm

Please delete. Duplicate post.

[Edited 2010-03-07 13:11:01]
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RE: Wow, There Is Still A Communist Party In America

Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
This is partially true. Marx believed in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." So he recognized differences in ability. What he didn't recognize was a difference in work ethic and drive/ambition.

It is exactly that belief (from each according to his ability, to each according to his need) that I do find morally problematic. It basically enslaves the productive for the benefit of the unproductive. Seems pretty backward to me.

Even in a commune that is founded voluntarily, it will not be long before the weaker (whether they be elderly, lazy, or smart enough to figure out they can get something for nothing) start to hold a claim on the production of the stronger.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 43):
North Korea i can understand because the people have little to no outside exposure. Im also surprised by Cuba as well...

It seems that most of the reason North Korea still exists is foreign aid. The political structure results in constant famine and well as food and resource shortages. Definitely not a success story of communism. Cuba has got more trade partners and happens to be a decent tourist spot, so it seems like they are a bit better off. But again, no major industry in Cuba that I'm aware of.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 47):
No they haven't. The only party that has pulled the wool over the ideas of blue collar workers is the republican party with its demonization of the left as liberal elites and its lies about being the party of the people.

Oh my goodness. Can we all just recognize we individuals are not the party machines and demonstrate a little bit of individual thought and objectivity. Of course some Republican PR strategy has cast liberal as elitist and out of touch. And Democrat PR strategy has cast Republicans as corporate pigs. You ignore the dirty PR tactics of the party you happen to agree with. At least be objective and let's all agree that both sides play dirty.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 47):
Then once elected, Republican representatives very quickly forget about about all of those who got them elected and go back to supporting their special interests and traditional voter base.

Again you are framing this as if Republicans are the only ones beholden to special interests. Can you tell me if you actually believe that yourself? If so, I would say you have a lot of reading up to do.

I am not saying that Republican politicians are upstanding and noble and conscientious at all times. They aren't. I think most of them are probably the opposite. But the exact same is true for the Democrats. They are all professional politicians. If you think the left is less beholden to special interests then you are deluding yourself plain and simple and should probably excuse yourself from the argument.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 47):
I find it incredibly funny that the only people in this thread who have painted with broad brush strokes and labeled an entire group of people as supporters of a specific ideology are the right wingers. If anyone comes onto these boards and says that all right wingers are racists or fascists, etc. you'll all be on here within seconds shouting them down and reminding them that you can't apply a label to an entire group of people when their beliefs are so nuanced.

I see what you are saying but I think it is also worth noting that the right and left sides of the political spectrum are not mirror images of each other; that is, I don't think the extremes are exact opposites. I think it is plausible that the Democratic party borrows or distills more of its platform from communism or socialism than the Republican party does from the extreme right, maybe because the extreme right is so difficult to define.

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