LOT767-300ER
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The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:11 am

I just read the article on some of the official replacements.

People doubted me (Cadet57) if the Taurus would be put up as the official new Ford entry to the market.

1. 2011 Chevrolet (Holden) Caprice.


-RWD Platform
-Not sold to civilians (get it at your ex-Cop Dealer)
-Standard 355hp V8 (Presumably an LS1?), then the familiar 3.6L V6
-Full size

2. 2011 Dodge Charger Police (2005-2010 shown)


-RWD platform, available AWD (not sure if the cop package is also available with the AWD)
-The 3.5L HO getting replaced with the 280hp Pentastar V6, 360hp Hemi 5.7L option
-Damn good looks

3. 2011 Ford Taurus Police
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss44/TexasBillC/Taurus-Squad.jpg

-FWD platform, available AWD.
-3.5 260hp V6 and option Twin Turbo 3.5 EcoBoost 365hp engine
-Definately not as big as the Charger or Caprice

-Carbon E7
http://www.gadgetreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/carbon_e7-police-vehicle.jpg

-Specifically built for police/government
-RWD
-Diesel (!!!)
-Integrated lightbars, electronics equipment etc.

---

I would personally choose the new 2011 Caprice. I think the Taurus will go the way of the Impala, unless departments are willing to dish out for the EcoBoost/AWD version.

I dont think that a diesel is the way to go in the US....I have high doubts about high speed pursuits and the initial cost of purchasing these Carbon vehicles.
 
Boeing744
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:55 am

This is a good idea for a thread - I will be interested in seeing what the experts here say.

My uncle is in the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) and it sounds like they are starting to go with the Dodge Charger. I do most of my driving back in Victoria, BC (the Metro area of which is served by 4 different police forces btw) and I have seen enough of them there to start being conscious of my speed when I see a Charger (as I do with a Crown Victoria).
 
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cpd
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:03 am

There should be an RFP for this like the KC-X tanker one, so that the whole thing takes 15 years to procure and ends up as a fight in the courts.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
Standard 355hp V8

L76 V8 engine (6.0L with cylinder deactivation, the standard engine of Holden Commodore AFM V8 or Pontiac G8). The LS1 is long since gone. Holden only has L76, LS3 or LS7 V8 engines (or SIDI 3.0L and 3.6L V8 engines).

There is also a rumoured 3.0L twin-turbo diesel V6 waiting to be released.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:05 am

Almost no Chargers here yet, but down in FL we had the FHP Chargers on the interstates, both normal and plain wrappers and just by how they look you know they mean business.

I just dont think Ford is making the right decision to go for a FWD platform. The Intrepid and the Impala didnt really WOW...That being said the new Taurus is a great car, and the new EcoBoost V6 is a great engine but IMO not for heavy duty police work.
 
varigb707
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:07 am

this is one looks nice.

http://i40.tinypic.com/m9uf0z.jpg
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:09 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 2):
L76 V8 engine (6.0L with cylinder deactivation, the standard engine of Holden Commodore AFM V8 or Pontiac G8). The LS1 is long since gone. Holden only has L76, LS3 or LS7 V8 engines (or SIDI 3.0L and 3.6L V8 engines).

There is also a rumoured 3.0L twin-turbo diesel V6 waiting to be released

Ahh yea I was just thinking about the 2004 Monaro/GTO as I was reading the article thats why I said LS1. Dont know why I wrote that.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:12 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):

I dont think that a diesel is the way to go in the US....I have high doubts about high speed pursuits and the initial cost of purchasing these Carbon vehicles.

Not every police car needs the ability to do high speed pursuit. It's pretty hard to outrun a radio.

The goals for the diesel is for 28 to 30 combined MPG, that would save police departments a lot of money on their fuel bill.
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:13 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 2):
(or SIDI 3.0L and 3.6L V8 engines).

BTW, I think you were misspoke there too. You meant to write 3.6L V6   
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:14 am

Given all the ex Ford guys at Carbon, do we know who's producing its diesel.

As an Aussie, I think the Caprice could be a great export earner, and Adelaide sure needs help in terms of jobs. Plenty of the civilian version plying our roads as taxis and limos. None as police cars however - it's seen as too big, so the highway patrol cars are generally Commodore SS (Pontiac G8, standard wheelbase version of the Caprice) or our RWD Ford Falcon.

The Carbon does sound interesting though....
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting brons2 (Reply 6):
Not every police car needs the ability to do high speed pursuit. It's pretty hard to outrun a radio.

The goals for the diesel is for 28 to 30 combined MPG, that would save police departments a lot of money on their fuel bill.

That depends on where fuel prices stay and the price of the car is competitve with the others. Just look in the Jetta thread where we (or myself, VW and the EPA) calculated that a +12mpg increase with a diesel vs. a gasoline and a +$5000 sticker price on part of the diesel would yield only savings after 8-10 years...hardly the life of a police car.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:26 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
I would personally choose the new 2011 Caprice.

I reckon it's too big. A standard Commodore cop car is big enough, with the same engine. That'd be the best starting point because cop cars in NZ/Aus are Commodores, so the design is already out there and ready to be brought straight into service.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:35 am

Quoting aerorobNZ (Reply 10):
I reckon it's too big. A standard Commodore cop car is big enough, with the same engine

We are talking about the US...the #1 positive about the Crown Victoria is its size...and arguably its still bigger than the Caprice.

I think the size of the Caprice will be its main selling point in the USA, not its drawback.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:02 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):

That depends on where fuel prices stay and the price of the car is competitve with the others. Just look in the Jetta thread where we (or myself, VW and the EPA) calculated that a +12mpg increase with a diesel vs. a gasoline and a +$5000 sticker price on part of the diesel would yield only savings after 8-10 years...hardly the life of a police car.

I've shopped around Jettas in the last few years and the engine alone does not cost $5K more. Unfortunately they do stick you with a lot of options by making TDI an option package rather than just the engine alone, but if you option up a gas Jetta similarly the difference is not $5K. I have not done it for 2010 model year though.

There's also the question of depreciation. Despite diesel vehicles supposedly being less popular in the US, they hold a lot more of their value come resale time.
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:10 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 11):
We are talking about the US...the #1 positive about the Crown Victoria is its size...and arguably its still bigger than the Caprice.

What I don't get about your size issue with the Crown Vic, it's a long car but the cabin space isn't that large, I've always been amazed at how small Crown Vic taxi's are, they don't have as much room in them as a Caprice.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
I have high doubts about high speed pursuits

You do know that diesel engined vehicles have won the last couple of Le Mans, Seat have won the WTCC with a diesel, I don't think there is any problem with diesel in high speed pursuits.

I like the idea of the Carbon E7 a specifically designed vehicle for police use rather than converted passenger vehicle which is ultimately compromised.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:33 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
You do know that diesel engined vehicles have won the last couple of Le Mans, Seat have won the WTCC with a diesel, I don't think there is any problem with diesel in high speed pursuits.

What does a 5L+ Twin Turbo V12 Diesel have to do with a 250hp (presumably V6 diesel)? We arent talking here about specially tuned high performance diesels.

And what does a Seat Leon TDI have to do with high speed police chases? The WTCC the Seat Leon won is a Group A car competition. Not anything near resembling a police car with gear by the hundreds of pounds in the trunk, factory armored doors, laptops etc.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:40 am

Quoting brons2 (Reply 12):
I've shopped around Jettas in the last few years and the engine alone does not cost $5K more. Unfortunately they do stick you with a lot of options by making TDI an option package rather than just the engine alone, but if you option up a gas Jetta similarly the difference is not $5K. I have not done it for 2010 model year though

Look into the thread, I compared the diesel Jetta to a non-Jetta that was $5k less with a regular V6 engine. Calculated on the EPA, VW and my calculations that it would take 8-15 years just to get back that $5k by buying a TDI Jetta vs. a $5k cheaper car with a V6.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:25 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 7):
You meant to write 3.6L V6

My apologies.   3.6L V6 indeed.   Hope the 3.0L diesel comes soon, because it is said to have more torque than the 6.0L V8 and something like 260hp, with excellent fuel economy to match.

Unfortunately Holden is beset with the analysis paralysis from the its American parent company.   They have a lot of nice ideas - but can't really do anything unless HQ gives the ok...  

By the way, that Statesman / Caprice will be seriously old by the time you lot get it - it's been released here for quite some years already. It's hardly a 2011 model.  
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
they don't have as much room in them as a Caprice.

Caprice/Statesman are massive inside. They are huge compared with a Lincoln Town Car, which I imagine would be similar size to a Crown Victoria. Easily the most comfortable car to ride in this side of the seriously expensive super-luxury cars. The people in the front can have their seats all the way back and the people in the back still have massive leg room! Very, very nice. I travel in those cars a lot these days.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 8):
and limos.

They are superb for that! Spacious, comfortable and laden with gadgets.   Quite handsome too.   I should also explain for the foreigners, the taxi versions are the premium/prestige service taxis.

Our Police cars that do similar duty to what the American ones will do are generally Holden Commodore SS or Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo (or the even faster F6 version).

If America needs a high speed pursuit vehicle - might I suggest they go for the Ford F6:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/21409/2009-fpv-f6-310-review/

NONE of those big pursuit cars in America would have a hope of catching one of those! My god, those turbocharged Fords are damn scary. Full acceleration in those is like moving to warp speed! The 0-62mph time is easily less than 4.9sec. The crims wouldn't have a chance of running away from it either.

[Edited 2010-03-16 00:53:52]
 
N1120A
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:37 am

Chargers are pretty, but I am still of the mind that US cops need to downsize their clunky gear in the car and move to something more nimble like a BMW 5 series or something.

That said, I really dig the Carbon and think if offers some interesting traits.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):

I dont think that a diesel is the way to go in the US....I have high doubts about high speed pursuits and the initial cost of purchasing these Carbon vehicles.

155 mph top speed (destroys a Crown Vic) and a 6.5 sec (comparable to or better than a Crown Vic) 0-60 is pretty sweet. I don't know what the cost of purchase will be, but Carbon is aiming for double the service time. Even if the cost is 1/3rd more, the car will easily pay for its self in efficiency and length of life.

Quoting cpd (Reply 2):

There is also a rumoured 3.0L twin-turbo diesel V6 waiting to be released.

Sexy.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 3):
Almost no Chargers here yet

I've seen a few in L.A. They seem to really like putting them in certain nicer neighborhoods to show them off.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 3):

I just dont think Ford is making the right decision to go for a FWD platform.

Totally agree. That said, if they make the default position AWD, they will be ok.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 6):

Not every police car needs the ability to do high speed pursuit. It's pretty hard to outrun a radio.

And a chopper. That said, the Carbon can more than hold its own.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
the life of a police car.

That is a key. The Carbon is aiming for double the service time.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 12):
There's also the question of depreciation. Despite diesel vehicles supposedly being less popular in the US, they hold a lot more of their value come resale time.

The Carbon is not going to be sold to the public. Ever. It will either move on to another police agency or go back to the factory for recycling.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
We arent talking here about specially tuned high performance diesels.

Actually, we are with the Carbon.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 15):
Calculated on the EPA, VW and my calculations that it would take 8-15 years just to get back that $5k by buying a TDI Jetta vs. a $5k cheaper car with a V6.

Did you add in resale value to that? How about the lower MX costs associated with diesels?
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:39 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 16):
By the way, that Statesman / Caprice will be seriously old by the time you lot get it - it's been released here for quite some years already. It's hardly a 2011 model.

I doubt this matters. The engine is plenty of powerful enough but everything else is going to be reconfigured for cops because there will be no civilian version. This means cop specific suspension, possibly cop specific exhaust, cop heavy duty alternator, factory armor etc.

BTW, you seem to forget one of the most important factors when it comes to space and police gear. Trunk space. The Crown Vic has quite a bit more of trunk space than a Caprice/Statesman. Its just another factor why that car wont die and is loved.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Actually, we are with the Carbon

Im not exactly sure how a 250hp is a specialized diesel engine...I guarantee you it will come from some other manufacturer. There is no way that they can just go ahead and develop a special engine and price that car to the competition.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Did you add in resale value to that? How about the lower MX costs associated with diesel

What lower maintenance cost? You mean the oil changes which usually cost 2-3x the amount of a regular car, and if anything goes tits up you pay up the @$$ in a diesel?

Realistically speaking on just one negative...what do you think the service life of a turbo will be in police work? Doesnt matter if its a diesel or a EcoBoost Ford with Police driving? You reckon cops will cool down turbos and take proper care of them? Yea right...thats wishful thinking. Can you imagine the cost of maintenance if you start to develop these problems on a massive scale? Same with AWD, I just dont buy it unless its a police SUV.

Quote:
NONE of those big pursuit cars in America would have a hope of catching one of those! My god, those turbocharged Fords are damn scary. Full acceleration in those is like moving to warp speed

I think that would be the point of offering the Taurus Twin Turbo V6 AWD...

BTW..theres plenty of undercover cops in my county with just as much speed and power. Theres undercover C6 Corvettes, 05/06 GTOs, Charger SRT8s etc. that roam the city/interstates/expressways where I live.

[Edited 2010-03-16 01:00:49]
 
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cpd
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:49 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
BTW, you seem to forget one of the most important factors when it comes to space and police gear. Trunk space. The Crown Vic has quite a bit more of trunk space than a Caprice/Statesman. Its just another factor why that car wont die and is loved.

Heavens, how much stuff do they need? Caprice's one is already massive with space to spare, and the lid of it is hinged so that the hinges don't intrude into the trunk space.

[Edited 2010-03-16 00:51:42]
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:09 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 20):
Heavens, how much stuff do they need? Caprice's one is already massive with space to spare, and the lid of it is hinged so that the hinges don't intrude into the trunk space

Obviously alot. I went on a ride along a couple of times in Florida and the trunk in the Crown Vic was riddled with gear to the top. Actually, thats why the cops in that department at least loved the Chevy Tahoe and Ford Expedition cop SUVs, huge trunks for gear. BTW, I checked and the Crown Vic has some 1/5th more trunk space than a Caprice/Statesman, and Ford is specifically increasing the size of the Taurus trunk for the PPV version.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:48 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 11):
We are talking about the US...the #1 positive about the Crown Victoria is its size...and arguably its still bigger than the Caprice.

Yeah I know we are talking about the US, but a Caprice is massive even by US standards of sedan, I'd have thought the SSV8 with the shorter non-ute wheelbase would handle better and be even faster because it weighs less. They have plenty of space too

Anyone who has to sit in the back doesn't deserve the right to legroom... 
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JJJ
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:56 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
dont think that a diesel is the way to go in the US....I have high doubts about high speed pursuits and the initial cost of purchasing these Carbon vehicles

Well. You're saying space and weight is an issue, and that's precisely where diesels excel. Plenty of torque to haul those pounds of extra gear.

Over here, police cars (except for dedicated highway pursuit vehicles) have been diesels for quite a while, and I expect US police stations to get a good deal on diesel fuel if they buy bulk. After all those cars really drive a lot of miles, the savings would be enormous.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:04 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
What does a 5L+ Twin Turbo V12 Diesel have to do with a 250hp (presumably V6 diesel)? We arent talking here about specially tuned high performance diesels.

And what does a Seat Leon TDI have to do with high speed police chases? The WTCC the Seat Leon won is a Group A car competition. Not anything near resembling a police car with gear by the hundreds of pounds in the trunk, factory armored doors, laptops etc.

Well it proves that diesel can be used in high speed vehicles, plus the Germans use BMW 5 series and Mercedes E class diesels, they probably travel at higher speeds more frequently than US police do.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
Trunk space. The Crown Vic has quite a bit more of trunk space than a Caprice/Statesman.

If you call 23 litres quite a bit more, I don't.

Ford Taurus 569 Litres
Ford Crown Vic 583 Litres
Holden Caprice 560 Litres

Now I bet most of that additional Crown Vic space is wasted since the boot hinges intrude into the boot. So I would probably call it even. Either way you could fit a lot of dead bodies, golf bags or police junk in the boot of all of these vehicles.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):
You reckon cops will cool down turbos and take proper care of them?

Modern turbo motors don't need cooling down time, you can thrash the crap out of any modern turbo petrol or diesel engine just as you would a naturally aspirated engine and not worry about it. 5 of my last 8 cars have been turbo charged and I've never had a turbo problem.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:42 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
Modern turbo motors don't need cooling down time, you can thrash the crap out of any modern turbo petrol or diesel engine just as you would a naturally aspirated engine and not worry about it. 5 of my last 8 cars have been turbo charged and I've never had a turbo problem.

No you can't. If you do it a few times a year nothing serious will happen, but do it everyday and the turbo is gone in 50.000 km.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:07 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 9):
+12mpg increase with a diesel vs. a gasoline and a +$5000 sticker price on part of the diesel would yield only savings after 8-10 years...hardly the life of a police car.

But how many miles per year was that? At 35,000 (or more) a year, a +12 mpg gain would be huge. There are some cars here at the dept I work for that put 50,000+ a year. And we have take home cars. And how about idling? most cop car will idle for 1/2 the time(here cops leave the running all the time to keep it cool--south florida).

Dan in Jupiter
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:50 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 25):
No you can't. If you do it a few times a year nothing serious will happen, but do it everyday and the turbo is gone in 50.000 km.

I drove a 1991 MR2 turbo for 120,000km, it was tuned, chipped, thrashed everyday I owned it, and I never had a problem with the engine, all I did was kill a clutch. Police cars won't be thrashed all day everyday either, besides a couple of km's slow driving before you finish the day and she'll be right.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:58 am

Quoting aerorobNZ (Reply 10):
I reckon it's too big. A standard Commodore cop car is big enough, with the same engine. That'd be the best starting point because cop cars in NZ/Aus are Commodores, so the design is already out there and ready to be brought straight into service.

In the US police cars need to be pretty heavy. Just watch a few episodes of COPS and see the morons we have who decide to try to run for it. If you are going to do a PIT maneuver, it is much safer for everyone involved if the police car is heavier than the car it tries to PIT.
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:50 pm

All the guys here talking of weak performances concering Diesels, I'm sure you have never ever driven a proper diesel.

Drive a diesel with 160hp and the same car with a normal Otto-engine having about the same power. There is only one thing I can tell you: You will be blown away and think the diesel has 50hps more easy if not more. Compare that in a heavy car, not just something like a BMW 3series or Audi A4 it will be even more showing how good and powerful diesels are. You can't compare "diesel hp" with normal gas hp. One will have to drive pretty fast until the power difference between "same powered" (meaning similar hps) will be leveled. With fast I don't mean 75mph but rather 100-120.

This is one that has never made any sense to me, which is the aloofness of americans towards diesels. Especially americans which compared to Europe, drive more than heavy cars I would have expected to be aware of the massive torque a diesel engine offers. Sitting in a Escalade with something like 400hps you are more than thrilled about what is going to happen as soon as you kick down only to be massively disappointed that nothing is happening and you feel the acceleration of a VW T4 (transporter) with less than half the power provided by a diesel engine.

.... as I said, I don't get it.
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
In the US police cars need to be pretty heavy.

The Caprice weighs approx 4200 pounds, the Commodore 3900 - 4070 pounds and the Crown Vic 4100 pounds, all roughly the same weight.

The standard Commodore also has 496 litre of boot space which should be enough space for most police uses.

All up the Holden Commodore and the Caprice look to be far better vehicles than the Crown Vic, maybe for should look at importing the Commodores natural enemy the Falcon for use in the US police market, it would also work well in the taxi market, since a diesel version of the Falcon based Territory is also planned it would be easy to offer this in the Falcon as well.
 
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:23 pm

Being a diesel fan, I have to give the nod to the Carbon. Plus, a purpose build car will almost always out perform a conversion.
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
People doubted me (Cadet57) if the Taurus would be put up as the official new Ford entry to the market.

Im eating my humble pie. And it tastes bad  
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:37 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
maybe Ford should look at importing the Commodore's natural enemy, the Falcon, for use in the US police market,

That would get my vote! Perhaps the next version of the Falcon will be designed/updated with an eye towards making it easy to produce in both right- and left-hand-drive versions.
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PHLBOS
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:06 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
I just read the article on some of the official replacements.

Do you, by any chance, have a link for said-article?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
1. 2011 Chevrolet (Holden) Caprice.

-RWD Platform
-Not sold to civilians (get it at your ex-Cop Dealer)

Can we say Black Market?  
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
2. 2011 Dodge Charger Police (2005-2010 shown)

I'm curious to know how long the Charger platform (as well as the Chrysler 300) will stay as it presently is and/or how long will the civilian version be still available... given the upcoming CAFE increases?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
3. 2011 Ford Taurus Police


-FWD platform, available AWD.
-3.5 260hp V6 and option Twin Turbo 3.5 EcoBoost 365hp engine
-Definately not as big as the Charger or Caprice

Will the Baltimore Police Department even look at this model given their well documented* negative experiences with the 90s Taurus police vehicles? Yes, I'm aware that the current Taurus is a different animal from the older mid-size model but many of its attributes (FWD, V6 engine) are similar.

*The 90s Taurus police vehicle issues and the Baltimore Police fiasco is covered in Corporal Ed Sanow's police car history publications.

The big question here is with the development of this new Taurus police model; has Mullaly applied any of the Lessons Learned from the last Taurus police car's shortcomings onto the current model? Right off the bat, the only item that hasn't (thankfully) carried over from the 1995 model is the trouble-prone 3.8 V6; which probably accounted for most of the old Taurus' problems.

Clarification: Ford is presently keeping the current PI (Crown Vic) in production while the Taurus PI model is launched.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/ShowWhatsNewItem.asp?id=697

Exerpt:
Ford’s new Police Interceptor sedan will be manufactured at Ford’s Chicago (Ill.) Assembly Plant and will be offered without interruption when production of the Crown Victoria Police Interceptor ends in late 2011.

Already, a couple of issues with the retail 2010 Taurus, compared with its immediate predecessor 2008-2009 models, are the reduced interior room and trunk space. I sat in one at the Auto Show 2 months ago and was shocked at how tight the interior was and how limited the headroom (in back) was... and I'm only 5'-7"; and, no it was not a model equipped w/a moonroof. Some auto magazines have commented similarly. This is NOT good for a car that's supposed to be its largest and flagship model. Yes Virginia, there is a price to pay for slick styling.

That vice could turn cops away from the Taurus right then and there. Keep in mind that many law enforcement agencies require additional equipment (radios, laptops, seat dividers, etc.) that takes up interior space. The days of cop cars just having lights and a small radio for extra equipment are clearly long gone.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
-Carbon E7


-Specifically built for police/government
-RWD
-Diesel (!!!)
-Integrated lightbars, electronics equipment etc.
...
I dont think that a diesel is the way to go in the US....I have high doubts about high speed pursuits and the initial cost of purchasing these Carbon vehicles.

Very interesting. Although I would agree with you that the only issues of concern would be agencies getting used to/acquainted with using diesel-powered cars and purchase price. After all, law enforcement vehicles are purchased w/TAXPAYER MONEY.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
I think the Taurus will go the way of the Impala, unless departments are willing to dish out for the EcoBoost/AWD version.

You are aware that the AWD model operates like a FWD when the AWD mode doesn't kick in? Drivetrain maintenance costs are likely to be higher; just like a 4WD truck while likely have higher drivetrain maintenance costs than a comparable 2WD truck, everything else being equal.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 3):
That being said the new Taurus is a great car, and the new EcoBoost V6 is a great engine but IMO not for heavy duty police work.

Similar was said (minus the Ecoboost) regarding the 90s Taurus... fine car for the retail market but not suitable for heavy duty police work (uniform patrol).

Quoting varigb707 (Reply 4):
this is one looks nice.

Good luck stuffing a prisoner in back. Can we say Cruel and Unusual Punnishment
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 11):
Quoting aerorobNZ (Reply 10):
I reckon it's too big. A standard Commodore cop car is big enough, with the same engine

We are talking about the US...the #1 positive about the Crown Victoria is its size...and arguably its still bigger than the Caprice.

I think the size of the Caprice will be its main selling point in the USA, not its drawback.

Agreed. There are many law enforcement officers that can easily spend up to 8 or 10 hours a day in their vehicles; it's essentially their office-on-wheels, so to speak. Additionally, and as I metioned before; the extra equipment that police vheicles typically have DOES cut into the car's interior space... not to mention that many police officers, sizewise, can fall into the big and/or tall category. They may have a tight fit in a smaller car.

Keep in mind, that the Chevy Nova from the 70s (the darling in the compact police car market of its era) is actually LARGER than the current Impala sedan (which is now viewed as a full-size).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
I like the idea of the Carbon E7 a specifically designed vehicle for police use rather than converted passenger vehicle which is ultimately compromised.

While that may be true, there's still the issue of purchase cost. A market-specific/exclusive vehicle is automatically going to be priced higher than a model that's derived from an existing production platform. Again, police vehicles are purchased w/TAXPAYER MONEY.

In this era of budget restraints for many municipalities; if the cost of the Carbon E7 is too high compared to its competitors, that could be an all-round deal-breaker.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
I am still of the mind that US cops need to downsize their clunky gear in the car and move to something more nimble like a BMW 5 series or something.

A fleet of 5-series would be too costly for many municipalities. And, as I stated above; when one adds all the fore-metioned interior equipment PLUS the police officer (or officers, where 2-officer/vehicle patrols are warranted); that would make a very tight fit for most of today's sedans (why do you think many went towards SUVs, but that's a discussion for another thread?). A reminder that many officers spend a lot of time (8 to 10 hours) in these vehicles; it's essentially their office and the days of just lights and a small police radio as primary equipment add-ons to a vehicle are long gone.

Again, most of today's police vehicles (even the Crown Vic (PI)) are still smaller than their 1970s predecessors.

While the current Charger has a wheelbase of 120" (which is larger than the '79-'81 St. Regis but still smaller than the '77 and earlier Royal Monaco and Polora); its overall length and width still falls short of its behemoth predecessors. Width is key for a 2-man patrol unit.

The fore-metioned 'compact' Chevy Nova of the 70s is still slightly larger than the current 'full-size' Impala.

Even the Crown Vic is still smaller than its 1978 Custom 500/LTD predecessor.

During the mid 70s through the early 80s, many police agencies tried smaller cars (including the Scout Package for the K-car based Dodge Aries/Plymouth Reliant) but went back to larger vehicles as the newer vehicles lines were being downsized.

IMHO, U.S. law enforcement agencies are not going to be willing to downsize any further; especially since they're required to carry more equipment than before (when cars were larger).

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):
BTW..theres plenty of undercover cops in my county with just as much speed and power. Theres undercover C6 Corvettes, 05/06 GTOs, Charger SRT8s etc. that roam the city/interstates/expressways where I live.

Needless to say, that those are all retail models as opposed to bonefide police packages.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 21):
Ford is specifically increasing the size of the Taurus trunk for the PPV version.

IMHO, they need to increase the size on the standard retail Taurus as well.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
JJJ
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
After all, law enforcement vehicles are purchased w/TAXPAYER MONEY.

So does law enforcement fuel. One has to look at running costs also (of which fuel is the biggest component), in the end and all things considered, going diesel will probably save tax money.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:59 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 35):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
After all, law enforcement vehicles are purchased w/TAXPAYER MONEY.

So does law enforcement fuel. One has to look at running costs also (of which fuel is the biggest component), in the end and all things considered, going diesel will probably save tax money.

Depends on the market. In many areas, diesel fuel can cost higher than gasoline (as high as $0.70/gallon in some areas) so the fuel savings could be smaller than predicted. Additionally, there's also maintenance costs. Bottom line: the junk one throws in, the higher the cost.

Mind you, this is not to say that fuel consumption isn't a priority among police agencies; it's just that's it's not the only priority among them.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
globeex
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:02 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
While that may be true, there's still the issue of purchase cost. A market-specific/exclusive vehicle is automatically going to be priced higher than a model that's derived from an existing production platform. Again, police vehicles are purchased w/TAXPAYER MONEY

I see where you are comin from and you simply do the same mistake all the others are making.
Yes it is true that a diesel with 250hp is more expensive than a car with 250hp provided by an Otto-engine.

HOWEVER when comparing diesel to gas hp is the LAST you have to compare. First you should compare torge, than maybe accelerartion and then topspeed. Never compare a Otto-engine are and a diesel due to its hp. You are going the totaly wrong direction. An example (you might check it with $ prices in the US though)

In Germany I take the Audi A6 as an example. First I will compare the different models just by hp:

Audi A6:

2.8 FSI quattro (gas) with 190hp
Price: 40.200€
Torque: 280Nm
acceleration (0-60mph): 8.4 sec
topspeed: 237 km/h

3.0 TDI (diesel) with 190hp
Price: 47.200€
Torque: 380Nm
acceleration: 6.6 sec
Topspeed: 250km/h

So you see, while having the same hp there is a HUGE difference in what they are capable of.

Now a compareable model to the diesel.
3.0 TFSI (gas) with 290hp (!!!!)
Price: 49.000€
Torque: 420Nm
acceleartion: 5.9 sec
Topspeed: 250 km/h

So you see if you don't look at the hp but at the specs you really experience while driving (you can't feel hp, but torque, acceleration and topspeed) you see that diesel cars are just priced after their capabilities comparable to the gas cars and not due to there hp number.

So, as I said. When driving a diesl with 190hp its like driving a car that uses gas and which has maybe around 260hp.

I hope this was an eyeopener to some people.

OH and might I ADD: the diesel uses 20% LESS fuel than the extremly inferior 2.8FSI and 30% LESS that the comparable(/little bit better) 3.0TFSI!!!
20 and 30% guys!

[Edited 2010-03-16 10:07:15]
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
columba
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:31 pm

I personally would vote for the Charger best looking car of all of them  
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
And what does a Seat Leon TDI have to do with high speed police chases? The WTCC the Seat Leon won is a Group A car competition. Not anything near resembling a police car with gear by the hundreds of pounds in the trunk, factory armored doors, laptops etc

No problem for most German squad cars which are mostly diesel powered even the BMWs, Mercedes and Audis used for Autobahn patrol. The last 8 months I had the pleasure of driving a 3series BMW Diesel and it was incredible fast even though it had the small engine. 220 km/h were no problem.....I doubt that cops in the US have to drive that fast on a pursuit.
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PHLBOS
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:33 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 37):

Let's be clear here. I was only comparing gas vs. diesel on the grounds of purchase and/or maintenance costs only. I stated nothing about performance comparisions.

Please, keep in mind that many (up to 25 IIRC) states do NOT allow NEW diesel-powered vehicles smaller than trucks to be sold within their borders... unless they're of the TDI (or equivalent) variety (which is still relatively new in the States). This is probably the main reason WHY diesel-powered police cars were NEVER even pondered nor tried. Up until recently, diesels (in the States) were/are still known for being slow (15 second 0 to 60 times) and dirty. Plus many still remember GM's disasterous attempt of converting a gasoline engine to diesel during the late 70s/early 80s.

Personal take: it would be better to try the newer cleaner diesels in the retail market FIRST (I realize that the new Caprice and Carbon E7 are police-only vehicles), and then utilize them for the police car market later. That way, any unfamiliarity and teething problems can be sorted out BEFORE police versions of these vehicles are made.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
globeex
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Let's be clear here. I was only comparing gas vs. diesel on the grounds of purchase

Yes and that's what I was saying. You can't compare the purchaseprice of diesel and gas cars if you just look at the hp number. If you compare them for what they are really worth you will see that the difference in price is close to none extisting. So what you said is plain wrong when you make a remark saying that its paid by the tax payer implying that diesel cars are more expensive. Of course their are price differences, but same counts if you just compare gasoline cars if they have different capabilities and you won't be surprised that the same car with a better engine is more expensive. However a diesel car with 190hp also has a better engine that a gas car with 190hp.

Concering the maintenance. I wasn't aware that diesel cars are so much more expensive to maintain. At least in Germany that is def. not the case.
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N1120A
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:48 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):
Im not exactly sure how a 250hp is a specialized diesel engine...I guarantee you it will come from some other manufacturer.

I'm sure it will. I wasn't saying that it would be. I was just saying the car would be plenty fast.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):
You mean the oil changes which usually cost 2-3x the amount of a regular car

Only because people allow themselves to be ripped off. The police motor pool will handle all that.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):
and if anything goes tits up you pay up the @$$ in a diesel?

Diesels rarely ever go tits up.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 19):

Realistically speaking on just one negative...what do you think the service life of a turbo will be in police work?

Turbos on diesels rarely crap out. Lets take some real world, American examples. Take a look at all those diesel pickups out there that significantly outlast their gasoline counterparts, while having lower MX costs and more efficiency, while taking a serious pounding.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):

A fleet of 5-series would be too costly for many municipalities.

AFAIK, BMW offers really good prices on their police vehicles. The fact that they won the CHP contract, as well as many municipalities, shows that.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 36):
In many areas, diesel fuel can cost higher than gasoline (as high as $0.70/gallon in some areas)

These days, I don't think the difference is that much at all. Plus, when you are talking about something being 10-20 MPG more efficient, even 70 cents a gallon is insignificant.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 36):
Additionally, there's also maintenance costs.

Which will be LOWER, not higher.
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Cadet57
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:03 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Which will be LOWER, not higher.

On diesels, sure. But if the new Interceptor uses the twin turbo ecoboost, The mx costs will be interesting...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Turbos on diesels rarely crap out.

Again, on diesels yes. But I have a feeling a twin turbo being used in police work is going to be interesting....
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N1120A
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:24 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 42):

On diesels, sure. But if the new Interceptor uses the twin turbo ecoboost
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 42):

Again, on diesels yes. But I have a feeling a twin turbo being used in police work is going to be interesting....

I was talking about the Carbon. There is no way that Taurus should ever see police work.
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Cadet57
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:47 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
I was talking about the Carbon. There is no way that Taurus should ever see police work.

Like I said, the diesels would be a great option. The Taurus, im not so sure yet.
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LOT767-300ER
Topic Author
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:28 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
You are aware that the AWD model operates like a FWD when the AWD mode doesn't kick in? Drivetrain maintenance costs are likely to be higher; just like a 4WD truck while likely have higher drivetrain maintenance costs than a comparable 2WD truck, everything else being equa

Yes, I realize that propriety shite Ford AWD (ever since they switched away even from the crappy Haldex) is on demand.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
I'm sure it will. I wasn't saying that it would be. I was just saying the car would be plenty fast

I dont think so. I think it would be plenty fast if it was a civilian version without a ton of equipment.

But look who you would be comparing it to: A 375hp V8, a 365 Twin Turbo V6 and a 360hp Hemi V8.

Look at it this way, in order to get similar performance of those it takes a much smaller car (335d) than the Carbon would be, with a Twin Turbo 265hp diesel. Theres no way that such engine would be economically feasible to run for police departments, not to mention maintenance and initial costs.

Plenty fast yes, compared to a Charger V6 or a Impala FWD..

Quoting globeex (Reply 40):
Concering the maintenance. I wasn't aware that diesel cars are so much more expensive to maintain. At least in Germany that is def. not the case.

How is it not? Its more expensive to maintain diesels all over the world. What is your argument that it is not more expensive to maintain a diesel? The very price of oil changes is just the icing on the cake. Dont tell me that you have to change it less in a diesel because you can easily just buy 7500 or 15000 Mobil 1 for regular engine and itll be same intervals.

Quoting columba (Reply 38):
No problem for most German squad cars which are mostly diesel powered even the BMWs, Mercedes and Audis used for Autobahn patrol. The last 8 months I had the pleasure of driving a 3series BMW Diesel and it was incredible fast even though it had the small engine. 220 km/h were no problem.....I doubt that cops in the US have to drive that fast on a pursuit
Quoting columba (Reply 38):
No problem for most German squad cars which are mostly diesel powered even the BMWs, Mercedes and Audis used for Autobahn patrol. The last 8 months I had the pleasure of driving a 3series BMW Diesel and it was incredible fast even though it had the small engine. 220 km/h were no problem.....I doubt that cops in the US have to drive that fast on a pursuit

Why wouldnt they? Do you think speed limits apply to perps who are running on the interstate?
  

Sometimes they pursuit tanks, like that douche who stole one in SAN I think it was =D

Quoting JJJ (Reply 35):
So does law enforcement fuel. One has to look at running costs also (of which fuel is the biggest component), in the end and all things considered, going diesel will probably save tax money

How? If diesel saves 20% gas, and diesel is 20% more expensive than gas...and sometimes it is more than that.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:47 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 40):
You can't compare the purchaseprice of diesel and gas cars if you just look at the hp number.

Again, where in my previous posts did I compare hp ratings of a diesel compared to gas?

Incidentally and I should've stated this in my earlier post: The cost issue I was primarily focusing on was with regards to the Carbon E7 being produced exclusively for the police market as opposed to a modified version of an existing retail model (which are typically produced in larger quantities) and NOT necessarily whether it was powered by diesel or not.

All the other competing models listed have retail models that utilize the same platforms that are produced in larger quantities.

IMHO, the only issues involving diesels in the U.S. market would be availability and perceptions. Remember, until very recently, a 'clean' diesel engine was viewed as an oxymoron; not to mention that at least half of the states adopted the more-stringent CA emissions law which essentially bans the sale of new diesel-powered vehicles unless it's one of these TDIs or equivalent. The diesel bans were written long before 'clean' diesel was even thought of.

I'm assuming that the Carbon E7 is a 'clean' diesel. If it isn't, then it CAN'T be legally sold in half the country even if it's an exclusive fleet model.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
AFAIK, BMW offers really good prices on their police vehicles. The fact that they won the CHP contract

  Wow, now that's quite a surprise. I'm surprised that nobody posted a thread on that (like someone did for the NYPD Altimas a while back). I thought they would have stayed with Chargers for their Enforcement Class vehicles until the bitter end.

Then again, CHP may try a completely new of different model for one year, but if they have any bad experiences w/them; it may be while before they try a newer version of that model again. That's kind of what happened back in 1970 when they went w/the Mercury Monterey instead of the Dodge Polora (which they used for years); back then, CHP required that their enforcement Class vehicles have a 122-inch wheelbase minimum so that's why a Ford Custom nor a Chevy Biscayne was not considered. For some reason, CHP has having tons of issues w/those cars. As a result, the following year CHP went right back to Dodges. The next Ford sedan that CHP would select wouldn't be until the 1984 Crown Vic.

If the Beemers give CHP any trouble, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll be back to the Dodges for them or they might go for the new Caprice the following year.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
These days, I don't think the difference is that much at all. Plus, when you are talking about something being 10-20 MPG more efficient, even 70 cents a gallon is insignificant.

In southeastern PA (near Philly), back when the prices were sky high; one or two stations had diesel priced nearly a dollar a gallon higher than the top gasoline grade. While that has subsided, there are still some parts of the country (mainly where it's colder) that charge significantly higher prices for diesel than for gas. 30 years ago, diesel was always about 10 cents cheaper; even in Massachusetts.

As far as the higher cost at the pump vs. the increased fuel efficiency trade off is concerned; that would be subject to how many miles one drives or has driven.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 36):
Additionally, there's also maintenance costs.

Which will be LOWER, not higher.

With a regular diesel, yes. With either a turbo or supercharged diesel... that could be open for debate.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
as well as many municipalities, shows that.

What other municipalities use them (BMWs) ? I haven't seen any in either the Greater Philly nor Greater Boston areas.

[Edited 2010-03-16 13:58:29]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
globeex
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:56 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 45):
But look who you would be comparing it to: A 375hp V8, a 365 Twin Turbo V6 and a 360hp Hemi V8.

Look at it this way, in order to get similar performance of those it takes a much smaller car (335d) than the Carbon would be, with a Twin Turbo 265hp diesel. Theres no way that such engine would be economically feasible to run for police departments, not to mention maintenance and initial costs.

No, a 265hp will have a similar torque, accleration etc. to a 350-360hp gasoline car.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 45):
How is it not? Its more expensive to maintain diesels all over the world. What is your argument that it is not more expensive to maintain a diesel? The very price of oil changes is just the icing on the cake. Dont tell me that you have to change it less in a diesel because you can easily just buy 7500 or 15000 Mobil 1 for regular engine and itll be same intervals.

Come one, are you really talking of the 25$ difference you might have for an oil chance every 10.000 miles?
So what's your next point then?
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LOT767-300ER
Topic Author
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:59 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
AFAIK, BMW offers really good prices on their police vehicles. The fact that they won the CHP contract, as well as many municipalities, shows that
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 46):
If the Beemers give CHP any trouble, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll be back to the Dodges for them or they might go for the new Caprice the following year.

The CHP bought BMW cars ???

The hell you guys smoking? Arent those BMW Motorcycles that the CHP bought?   
 
LOT767-300ER
Topic Author
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RE: The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement

Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 47):
Come one, are you really talking of the 25$ difference you might have for an oil chance every 10.000 miles?
So what's your next point then?

My point is that these add up when you are selling these vehicles by the thousands and they see 100,000+ miles per year.

[Edited 2010-03-16 14:58:47 by srbmod]

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