dxing
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Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:02 pm

Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo? Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all, after first blasting the Senator last summer. Let's have a peek back at last summer shall we?

http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1809667

"If we are able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," Senator Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, told conservative activists.
Obama seized on DeMint's remarks as evidence the GOP's opposition is based less on disputes of the specifics of health reform but more on politics.
"This isn't about me," Obama said. "We can't afford the politics of delay and defeat when it comes to health care. Not this time, not now."


There was even a thread with the material as a topic:

Is The GOP Interested In Fixing Healthcare At All? (by StasisLAX Jul 21 2009 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2106820&searchid=2106820&s=+Obama+waterloo#ID2106820


Well guess what? 8 months later, with a single political parlamentarian trick left to pass his health care bill left which has not enjoyed public support for the same amount of time, the President is singing a different tune.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34602.html


President Barack Obama had exhausted most of his health care reform arguments with members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus during a White House meeting last Thursday when he made a more personal pitch that resonated with many skeptics in the room.
One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.
Another caucus member, Rep. Jose Serrano (D-N.Y.), said, “We went in there already knowing his presidency would be weakened if this thing went down, but the president clearly reinforced the impression the presidency would be damaged by a loss.”
Added Serrano: “He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency.”


So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks ago that he just as preferably be a one term President who gets something done. Just another reason to hold off spending what is now reputed to be 940 billion dollars.

What's more if you read the linked story, how much has changed in 8 months? Approval then was only 49%, just a few points higher than polls taken today. The cost within 10% of what it was last summer and covers less of the uninsured. Scrap this bill and start over!!! How long and how loud does the electorate have to say that to you Mr. President?

[Edited 2010-03-18 08:12:28]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
mt99
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all,

I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this..
Step into my office, baby
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:34 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this.

That's what I love the most about the GOP. Their willingness to play nothing but politics, doing whatever it takes to keep their party competing with the democrats, while not giving a shit about what happens to the American people. But then, they turn around and point out the fact that Obama does acknowledge that this bill could be huge for his presidency, and that ALL he cares about is politics and not the people. It's a double edged sword.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):

So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks

Wow, ignorance is bliss. After all the GOP has done to NOT help this country recover from the terrible situation we're in, you turn around and say that it's all about Obama and that he's selfish? Maybe you should take a look at the history of the American presidency and realize that ALL presidents are concerned with getting re-elected and are concerned about how they're viewed by the American public.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
us330
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:41 pm

Well, at least we know he can state the obvious.

Even someone who only occasionally follows U.S. politics since Obama's inauguration could tell you that the fate of his presidency (and his presidential legacy) depends on this health care bill passing. For better or for worse, Obama has put the majority of his political capital and his political efforts into getting this bill passed--it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.
 
Arrow
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:43 pm

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo?

I don't disagree with what you've laid out, but what's the point? Eight months ago, Obama didn't think it would be his "Waterloo." Now he does. So what?

Too bad we can't go back into the records and see what Napolean's public statements were 8 months before he met Wellington on the field of battle. Or maybe even just the night before. Hindsight is always 20-20.

I don't think this is just Obama's Waterloo -- I think it might be America's Waterloo. Failure to get any kind of health reform moving, and get costs under control, will be a devastating blow, long term, to the US economy. Obama's package doesn't even come close, in my opinion, but at least it's movement.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
“essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House.
Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency

So, working off subtlety and innuendo (it is clear as the keyboard in front of me), the president needs to get this passed? I don't get it; when the right uses subtelty and innuendo, it is acceptable (It's what he didn't say) but when the left uses that lame excuse, it does not fly? This is a non issue. Unless you can quote me EXACTLY word-for-word where Obama said exactly that, this means nothing. It is hear say.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
mt99
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:56 pm

Quoting US330 (Reply 3):
it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.

Right - and that's his prerogative (foolish or not - that's not the issue at hand) and the GOP would be stupid not to stop it at ANY cost.

As long as we are being honest here, does any one here see an upside of the GOP voting for ANY health care bill that Obama will ultimately sign?

It may include a project to clone Ronald Regan,and it would still get no votes - just because its Obama's baby.
Step into my office, baby
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:02 pm

The Republicans' efforts to make this Obama's Waterloo has been clear for a long time. And it has been equally clear that in taking this road that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's not unusual has commented on this situation - he's been attacked or months over his efforts to improve health care for average Americans and he hasn't backed down.

And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.
 
dxing
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:47 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
The point is
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Their willingness to play nothing but politics,
Quoting arrow (Reply 4):
but what's the point?
Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
It is hear say.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.

They can say that all they want. If they had the votes to pass it they would have the vote today. It appears that two more "yes" votes switched to "no" votes today. The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac

Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:06 pm

I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
mt99
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Was this the point of your original post?
Step into my office, baby
 
EA772LR
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:24 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.  
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!

No keep lapdog Biden's jaws flappin away! I love it when the guy talks...he's like Screech from the old Saved By The Bell show. Never knows when to zip it, and always causes some inward directed turmoil.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.

My fingers are crossed. My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him. Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here. It's remarkable really. They've pushed their liberal agenda so hard, so fanatically, the American people are done with them. The best part about all of this, is the biggest backlash against Obama now are the Independents that supported him. Let me grab my popcorn, this ought to be action packed November!   
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.

Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush. And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't. If you can't answer these questions, then admit it and don't waste your time responding.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
us330
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't

Hypocrite: he promised transparency in government and making Washington more open and accessible to the people. Yet he's trying to get this bill passed using political stiff-arming. Polls have indicated that the majority of Americans are against this health care bill, and want him to focus on other issues of the economy, yet he still insists on it being passed.
When you have people like Bob Hebert of the NYT (someone who probably wouldn't even let his car turn right) criticizing you for missing the point, you know you've screwed up.

Egomaniac: The guy thought that people fell in love with him and that he'd be able to convince anybody that he's right, yet when its clear that his arguments are for naught, he still insists on getting it his way.

And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:45 pm

If healthcare fails - Obama has failed. He's made it his biggest domestic issue. He's spent a year on it.

The closest parallel came in 1993, when a Democratic Congress was about to block Clinton's first budget, the deciding vote came down to 1 Democratic Senator changing his mind and voting for it. He famously spoke on the floor of the Senate saying "I cannot cast the vote that brings down this Presidency." The final vote was tied exactly 50/50 and the VP Gore cast the deciding vote in favor of it. The House passed the budget 218-216.

But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate. With such a huge majority, if she can't deliver health care she'll have been broken. My bet is that she'll find a reason not to run for re-election rather than be deposed as Speaker in the next Congress if health care fails.
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:49 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him.

If it passes (and I think there is a chance it will) the next questions are how it impacts people between Sunday and November. And the same for impacting people between now and the 2012 elections. Conservative are so sure that this is a horrible law that they will get caught with their pants down if it works for the voters.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here.

That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.
 
EA772LR
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:52 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush.

First of all, the attitude of that 'his' agenda is the right thing to do, damn what the American public thinks. His constant using the words 'I' 'Me' 'My'. I've never seen a president use so many references about what 'He' wants. His arrogant attitude at his last official SOTU address. He didn't budge at all on his plans for Government Health Care and his Government Energy ala Cap and Tax, which are highly unpopular. He really believes all the hype and smoke that's been blown up his ass his whole political career. He's an average speaker who did some community service, and was a lawyer, as well as briefly served in political office for which he voted 'present' how many times and campaigned for how much of his Senate term?? He's a hypocrite because he's pulling the same shit he accused the Republicans of doing, except he's taken it to all new level. Where's the transparency? Why isn't Gitmo shut down? He accused Bush of deficit spending out of control, so what does he do-deficit spends more than all presidents before him by an order of magnitude more. Need I go on??

Did anyone watch the interview Obama did with Brett Baier? Obama dodged about every question and his rhetoric when asked about the 'deeming process' was appalling. I can't believe the POTUS would basically say on national TV 'he doesn't care how this bill gets passed, all that matters is that it's passed.' The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills.   
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:54 pm

I think the absolute worst case scenario for Democrats is for health care reform to pass through the deemed pass maneuver and then the law to be overturned down the road by a court.

In such a situation, they'll bear the full wrath of voters this November AND eventually have nothing to show for it.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

"Desperation" is what the health care lobby and right-wingers were telling us at the beginning of the health care debate. Telling us that we were not filing bankrupcy to cover our medical bills and praying we wouldn't get sick because we were working two or three jobs just to put food on the table and give us a roof over our heads. "Desperation" is calling anyone to the left of so-called "Republicans" every name in the book instead of addressing the problem.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
EA772LR
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

It can't Ken. It's not slated to go into effect until 2013. Yet the bastards want to start taxing NOW. The voters will feel nothing but another government hand in their back pocket, and yet further expansion of the government's powers.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 15):
But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate.

Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:02 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

I thought this from when the House voted on its bill in November until late last week. She literally had disappeared off the face of the earth. The party wouldn't let her open her mouth for all that time. However, she's now all over the place. I wonder if she thinks that by forcing through HCR she can save her Speakership.

I have liberal friends in San Fran who are telling me that she's getting abused on from both sides. The liberals feel she's a sell out and the right simply can't stand her.

Do you know of any Member of Congress who after being Speaker ever returned to serve simply as a representative? I can't think of any.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:21 pm

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):

Thank you very much

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):
And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature

Which is exactly point. So why is EA772 and DXing pointing it out, when he's no different from any other politician? Hammering it home won't do a damn thing. What it comes down to is a political career and how long it can last, because everyone on capitol hill, could care less about this bill because when it comes down to it, they're all millionaires anyway. What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare. So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills

Personally, I believe the republican's selfishness when it comes to doing everything in their power to sabotage this health care bill is the real problem. If anything, they're just as un-American as you guys are saying Obama is. You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
EA772LR
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:40 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

No you don't get it pal. When Bush was president did you and your beloved Liberal comrades forget "that this is a problem throughout the gov't,"?? I'm glad that you realize Obama, and the rest of the morons in D.C. don't give a $hit about the people. But by proxy of him being the POTUS, and the Democrats having vast majorities he and they will naturally be the brunt of political anger, much the way the left treated (and still does   ) Bush.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare

Which is exactly why those pricks shouldn't be telling us what's good for us. I distinctly remember an idea for an amendment by a Republican that would have required members of the House/Senate to have the same health care that us peons have.   You see how far it went.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
us330
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself

They aren't. I don't see them singing the praises of individual republican members for their honesty and integrity--it doesn't make their point any less valid or true by not specifically saying "Obama, like every other member of congress, is in it only for himself."

As far as I am concerned, they all need to be thrown out. Term limits for everybody in office.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo

Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:58 pm

meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is.

[Edited 2010-03-18 13:58:35]
 
slider
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:59 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

The tax increases begin immediately even though coverage won't begin right away.

It will be cataclysmic if it passes, not only for the Demoncats who vote for it, but for the country that doesn't want it, has said so in resounding riotous declarations from sea to shining sea, yet the oligarchs march on with THEIR agenda--not that of the people or for the people, no matter the semantics they wrap it up in.

Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Waterloo indeed.
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
It can't Ken. It's not slated to go into effect until 2013.

Parts will take effect this year, within 90 days as I understand it. Pre-existing conditions for kids is one that hits in 2010. Having your kids on your policy until they are 26 is another.

Those parts scheduled for later starts may, or may not, be moved up as things develop.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

She makes Conservatives sick. Just as sick as Newt make Liberals. BFD. That's politics in American.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 21):
I have liberal friends in San Fran who are telling me that she's getting abused on from both sides. The liberals feel she's a sell out and the right simply can't stand her.

A vote in the House to deem that the Senate bill is passed will be sufficient to set her place in history. The bill is historic in many ways and few are fighting as hard to get it passed as she is. I think she will be more than satisfied with her years in the job if she gets the votes this Sunday.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is

Give it a rest Monty, I would take the US system over anywhere else and so would many others. We just don't believe we have to give half our paycheck back so everyone could have it.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
EA772LR
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:32 pm

Just read this...pretty funny, and pretty much true   

Let me get this straight. We're going to be gifted with a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, to be signed by a president who also hasn't read it but "insists" on provisions in the bill to FORCE ALL Americans to be held accountable for their "LIFESTYLE CHOICES" diet, exercise YET he himself SMOKES!!*^%%**???!!!!!, to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?
  
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:38 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
yet the oligarchs march on with THEIR agenda

How do you vote an oligarch into power? The House members go up each 2 years. The President every 4 years and Senators face the voters every 6 years.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
not that of the people or for the people, no matter the semantics they wrap it up in.

Semantics in health care is focused on money. I'll trust the Democrats to care for Americans before Republicans any day of the week.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Shortages? We already have them for people without the means of acquiring health care.

Price Increases? LOL! Look at the increases during the Bush/Cheney Administration and then talk about cost increases.

Death Panels? In Sarah Palin's world you might find them, especially if you believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Give it a rest Monty, I would take the US system over anywhere else and so would many others. We just don't believe we have to give half our paycheck back so everyone could have it.

You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it.   )

And tax liabilities in Australia are pretty much in line with the US. Oh, wait, Australia is able to provide first rate medical care to people in the country for a lot less money than we spend in the US.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:04 pm

It's always funny that conservatives on this board believe that politicians should always just blindly follow whatever the polls say. What's really funny is that when polls said Americans wanted the U.S. to pull out of Iraq, the same conservatives said we must ignore the polls!!
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:12 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it.   )

And tax liabilities in Australia are pretty much in line with the US. Oh, wait, Australia is able to provide first rate medical care to people in the country for a lot less money than we spend in the US.

that's about the size of it, when I had a serious car accident back in 2000 I paid nothing for expensive neurosurgery or the 2 years in rehab, same when I had a back injury in 2004, it cost me nothing and I was operated on not long after I was rushed to hospital.

I don't fully understand your system but I get the general idea that its a user pay type system, with the exception of medicare/aid which caters to certain individuals and has age limits and means tests?! I would have thought it would be a priority for all Americans regardless of their political persuasion.

and for the record I pay $15 for two asthma sprays each 1/4 and they last me about 3 months or so, each prescription is able to be cashed 5 times before I need a new one..

I know we have reciprocal agreements with other nations too and this also includes discounted medications for those who are eligible from overseas.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:54 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it. )

The propaganda is getting old. I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it. Nice try tho and the Qantas phone # thing was cute.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 32):
that's about the size of it, when I had a serious car accident back in 2000 I paid nothing for expensive neurosurgery or the 2 years in rehab, same when I had a back injury in 2004, it cost me nothing and I was operated on not long after I was rushed to hospital

Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it. Then again, if you did have insurance, even after years of paying jacked up rates, they'd argue with you until you agreed to pay at least a part of the hospital bill out of your own pocket.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Dude, please don't say that. I would like to think that we on A-Net can have an intelligent conversation without bringing up the words "death panels". Oh and BTW, if you actually believe Psycho Palin and her beliefs in death panels, then I truly pray for you, because you need it.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:18 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 32):
I don't fully understand your system but I get the general idea that its a user pay type system, with the exception of medicare/aid which caters to certain individuals and has age limits and means tests?!

Basically our system is designed to cost twice as much as your in order to ensure profitability for health insurance companies. It also ensures that tens of millions of people cannot afford health care, which is an unfortunate but necessary part of our system that keeps the insurance companies making plump profits.

We also have a situation that feels it is better medicine when you pay more for the same treatment. We fear government dollars in medicine, but hospitals rely on Medicare and Medicaid to stay open and on government grants for research.

Oh, and it's important to remember that most of our bankruptcies are because of health care costs, and most of those people actually have health insurance.

And then. of course, we take pride in employers getting hit with the major costs of health insurance costs since we don't believe that it impacts how much we end up getting paid, how many employees a company can hire & maintain or if it impacts our ability to compete in the international market place.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
The propaganda is getting old. I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it

Actually, the top bone doc in town had to go to the UK to train in the new total hip surgeries many years ago, and performed the first total hip in town. It was one of those foreign things, ya know. And before we moved to Australia we visited there when my son was a year old. There was a nice story on the front page of the paper about US doctors flying to SYD to learn micro-surgery. There were so many from the US that the training was held in a warehouse. More "foreign stuff".

And the two Aussie docs who discovered ulcers caused by bacteria? Won the Nobel Prize in Medicine a few years ago? Eventually made it passed the FDA. But how long after the rest of the world were taking better care of patients.

Simple fact is that you can get outstanding care in a lot of countries. There may be different drugs, ahead or behind the US. There may be treatments that are eventually going to get to these shores - like total hip replacements. But if your doc tells you that there is a new treatment overseas that looks to be working better than he can offer - personally I'd recommend you head to where the best care is. Otherwise you're taking a lower quality treatment because a large government bureaucracy is taking their sweet time to do what other countries can do faster.
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it.

well that's stating the obvious, Nick...nobody will be using a drug that the FDA hasn't looked in to, our system has the same stringent analysis before anything gets put on the list for consumption...and if our quarantine regulations are anything to go by then its probably even more stringent than the US and other nations. I take it you have health insurance, what would be your reaction if you were to suffer some kind of bad health and the company put more stress on you by wrangling about paying the costs?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it. Then again, if you did have insurance, even after years of paying jacked up rates, they'd argue with you until you agreed to pay at least a part of the hospital bill out of your own pocket.

that's how I imagine it to be, never visited the US without adequate travel insurance because I know if something happens I am screwed, I've seen the arguing and insurance companies refusing to pay or making up certain excuses about why they won't pay out on claims, its outrageous.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Oh, and it's important to remember that most of our bankruptcies are because of health care costs, and most of those people actually have health insurance.

iirc its health care that nearly sent GM to the wall...not only are they paying for the current workforce but also those who have retired, must be costing them a mint to keep that up.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:36 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it.

Actually, if you don't have health insurance they would probably start talking to your family about an organ transplant. There is good money to be made there.  
Quoting qantas077 (Reply 36):
our system has the same stringent analysis before anything gets put on the list for consumption...

There are high standards Down Under, but somehow they seem to get through the review process in a fraction of the time the FDA takes.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 36):
iirc its health care that nearly sent GM to the wall

IIRC, GM had to add about $1,200 to the price of each car to cover the health costs of retirees. That makes Medicare Advantage look wimpy.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:14 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

Two words, hope and change. As well as:

"I don't take a dime of their [lobbyist] money, and when I am president, they won't find a job in my White House. "
Barack Obama

"In the end, that's what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope? "
Barack Obama

and fnally:

"My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington. "
Barack Obama

If he really believed that last line he would be scrapping this bill and starting over. Unfortunately he doesn't and since he campaigned on changing the tone, and running a more open government and hasn't he is more guilty of hypocrisy than other politicians that make no bones about being partisan.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):

Nothing in that has anything to do with the desperation that the President is now showing.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31):
What's really funny is that when polls said Americans wanted the U.S. to pull out of Iraq, the same conservatives said we must ignore the polls!!

What would really be funny is if you could produce a link to a poll that said that. Americans tired of the war, but never did the majority say pull out immediately. Well let me help you out.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq2.htm
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Okie
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:02 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is.

That is why we should get to gather a special envoy to go to Haiti and other countries to get contributions to help with our "appalling" heathcare.  Wow!


Okie
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:46 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 38):
What would really be funny is if you could produce a link to a poll that said that. Americans tired of the war, but never did the majority say pull out immediately. Well let me help you out.

Did you actually look at those polls, they actually support what I said.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 23-25, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq? How about [see below]?"

"Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq no later than the fall of 2008"
Favor 60%
Oppose 38%
Unsure 2%

So 60% of American's (a far stronger majority than those that oppose healthcare reform) wanted U.S. troops out by Fall 2008. However, the Administration and conservatives ignored this poll.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-11, 2007. N=1,006 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"As you may know, the Bush Administration has begun to significantly increase the number of U.S. troops in Iraq to help stabilize the situation there. Do you favor or oppose this?"
Favor 38%
Oppose 60%
Unsure 2%

Again, the overwhelming majority of those polled did not want the surge, but the Administration did it anyway.

I can keep going, but I think the point is clear. So I'll ask this, why should Obama all of the sudden simply follow the polls on healthcare, but Conservatives should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war??
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:10 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war?

Was is sacred FlyPNS1.    But bugger your health. Just need to keep it the way it is with it being more expensive, giving higher mortality rates in some critical groups, lower longevity compared with most countries with state health systems, insurance tied to employment causing lack of flexibility in the labour market, and, oh yes, large very profitable insurance companies. That is nirvana, relax and enjoy it. You just know it is good for you.   

Ed: where the heck has Check spelling gone, has it been treated by the US health system and are the insurance companies trying to decide if it was a pre-existing condition?  duck 

[Edited 2010-03-19 07:12:08]
 
CometII
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 6:02 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:08 pm

It's over republicans/conservatives. And they deserve it. They can scream and shout all the way to Justice Roberts, but health care reform is gonna happen. Democrats have the votes.

If conservatives were really so concerned about the principle of being against government run healthcare, when they held congress for all those years they would have REFORMED the system. They would have jammed through all the proposals they now claim will cost far less and lower premiums: tort reform, interestate clauses, and all the rest.

Yet, they allowed for years and years for 10% inflation in healthcare as salaries grew zilch, and millions of people being pushed out after paying their dues for in some cases decades, because they discovered a cancer on you. How long did you guys think that would be sustainable among the public? I'm no fan of this bill in many respects, but bottom line, democrats pushed for their ideas, republicans sat there from 1994 through 2006 and except for Medicare plan B (ironically, an entitlement), did nothing to overhaul the underlying system.

The cries of ''we have proposals'', thus have sounded shallow and just act of desperation or deflection. Now, consevatives need to accept and live with the new reality and the result of their inaction in the past.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:22 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
Ed: where the heck has Check spelling gone, has it been treated by the US health system and are the insurance companies trying to decide if it was a pre-existing condition?

        

Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofing everything I write, and still miss stuff.

But sticking with the US health insurance analogy -- your spell check doesn't work now because you had the temerity to use it too often, and it was cancelled pending a review of the premiums. Not to worry though, you can take advantage of spell-check tourism and migrate to another country (ANY other country), where it will work at half the cost and do a better job.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:22 pm

Quoting CometII (Reply 42):
Democrats have the votes.

If they have the votes, then the House would have already voted for the Senate-approved bill and been done with it. Last time I checked (this morning's paper), the Democrats in the House are still short a few votes... the actual number differs somewhat from report-to-report at the moment.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
So I'll ask this, why should Obama all of the sudden simply follow the polls on healthcare, but Conservatives should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war??

Your missing the point here. War is a constitutional obligation written in stone by the founding fathers, who are of course imbued with that papal concept of infallibility. The health and welfare of citizens, on the other hand, isn't mentioned -- so it's every man for himself. Polls don't figure into that.   
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Quoting arrow (Reply 45):
. War is a constitutional obligation

So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?
Step into my office, baby
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:43 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?

Well, I did put a little sarcasm smilie at the end of that -- much as it pained me to have to rely on it. I guess I needed to make the statement even more outrageous than I did. But ... they did have a go at us once back in 1812. Didn't work out so well.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:58 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 39):
That is why we should get to gather a special envoy to go to Haiti and other countries to get contributions to help with our "appalling" heathcare.

Our medical care isn't appalling. The financial side of our medical system is appalling We have a policy of cash over care, where insurance profits are more important than caring for the sick.

Quoting arrow (Reply 43):
Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofing everything I write, and still miss stuff.

I've always been a horrid typist - my fingers just don't seem to work properly. So I use a Mac, which highlights words that don't end up as my brain thought they would.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
If they have the votes, then the House would have already voted for the Senate-approved bill and been done with it.

There were a couple steps first. Step 1 is the CBO delivering the numbers, and they did that yesterday.

Step 2 is the 72 hours of public notice that was promised. We are in the middle of that right now.

Step 3 is the actual vote, which will probably start between 1pm and 2pm Sunday afternoon.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?

It's too cold there in the winter and some people there speak French. No way, unless of course there is sufficient oil there - in which case the Republicans may start thinking about it.   
 
seb146
Posts: 14060
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!

Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:07 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
Yet the bastards want to start taxing NOW. The voters will feel nothing but another government hand in their back pocket, and yet further expansion of the government's powers.

The right-wing is pissed off that the health care bill is not being paid for. But, if it is paid for, they are still pissed off.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

When a right-winger stands up for what they believe and sticks to it, they are to be commended. When a left-winger does the exact same thing, they are bad, evil, sick, socialist, communist, liberal trash. Hmmmmm......
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