StarAC17
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Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:18 am

To continue the thread:

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):

So the essence of what you are saying is that the taxpayer should foot the bill for those who will never reach that level of wealth (which, you admit, is the vast majority). Even if tax receipts could cover all those costs, which I doubt they could, I think you would find that when you became liable, you (and the government) would balk at paying out the kind of physician compensation that the best hospitals do.

What a single payer system is defined as is precisely that, you pay additional taxes to spread the risk across the entire population and in turn the government pays the doctors the costs directly of your treatment but doesn't meddle in the relationship with you and your doctor. In turn the system is price regulated to control costs and a doctor gets the same amount per patient they see, also everyone rich or poor has access to the system to use as they feel.

It serves as the same function as a insurance company (where you pay for others as well) except the government has a responsibility to the people at large whereas an insurance company has a responsibility to its shareholders.

Now a skeptic of this system would say that it would get abused by the common man but the reality is that people don't like to see their doctor regardless if they have to pay or not. However the luxury of being able to see a regular GP over going to the ER when you need care is a huge reason why other industrialized countries have a lower cost structure associated with health care.

Canada has to make a decision to have private general health care allowed which would mean that we have our public system as well as a private system which would allow the rich to pay cash and skip the line.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):
You assume, which is your right to do, that the "we" perspective is better than the "me." On its face, I would agree that the "we" seems and feels better. I truly think it leads to ruin in both theory and practice. You confuse a rational "me" perspective with irrational greed. I would argue that is mistaken.

I see the "me" perspective as a lot like what I see in this video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFOnG9a1Pzw

I feel we are obliged to help people out when we have the means to and I don't think this man in the video had any control over his condition and needs to have the help available to him so he can live his life. Healthcare is one of those things it would be nice to take on a case by case basis to see who deserves to be helped based on their lifestyle but that isn't easy because so many factors are out of a persons control.

However I agree 100% that we shouldn't bail out people that have been irresponsible with money, their jobs etc and I was very opposed to those Wall st. and Bank bailouts.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):
So why can't we focus on measures that will lower costs, make insurance companies more competitive and accountable, and provide a safety net for the most extreme cases? That seems much more sensible than this elephantine mess.

It is much more sensible and a public option would have made a huge step into making insurance companies far more honest as well as being able to reduce costs by fueling competition, same with pulling anti-trust exemptions. Insurance companies don't want any competition be in an non-profit corporation or the government.

Also with the huge distrust of the government by Americans plenty would have stayed put with their private insurance out of fear so a public option would have not destroyed the insurance industry.

Also this is a very similar situation that is an issue in Ontario, Canada and it has to do with auto insurance. Not as important but all insurance runs the same.

Basically the issue is that most auto insurers in Ontario are sold by banks that have lost money in the economy in the past 2 years. So in order for them to get their return they have hiked the premiums of all drivers and not just the bad ones and the public know they are getting screwed. This has made a public option for this on the table because we are tired of being screwed by for profit insurance in it just to make money.
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WarRI1
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:31 am

Quoting starac17 (Thread starter):
Basically the issue is that most auto insurers in Ontario are sold by banks that have lost money in the economy in the past 2 years. So in order for them to get their return they have hiked the premiums of all drivers and not just the bad ones and the public know they are getting screwed. This has made a public option for this on the table because we are tired of being screwed by for profit insurance in it just to make money.

That is what is needed, a public option, there and here, at least in Canada it is auto insurance, not health insurance where profit is wrung out of sickness and misery.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:51 am

Quoting Mt99

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 308):


One's in the Constitution and one isn't? How about that for starters?


So its in the constitution to attack Canada too.. Lets go for it!



Stop being ridiculous. You know the difference, and that is that national defense is explicitly addressed in the Preamble to the Constitution whereas public healthcare and/or mandating the purchase of ANYTHING are not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Speedbird741
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:41 am

Here is some case law for you all:


"The Supreme Court rarely declares laws unconstitutional for violating the Tenth Amendment. In the modern era, the Court has only done so where the federal government compels the states to enforce federal statutes. In 1992, in New York v. United States, 505 U.S. 144 (1992), for only the second time in 55 years, the Supreme Court invalidated a portion of a federal law for violating the Tenth Amendment. The case challenged a portion of the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Policy Amendments Act of 1985. The act provided three incentives for states to comply with statutory obligations to provide for the disposal of low-level radioactive waste. The first two incentives were monetary. The third, which was challenged in the case, obliged states to take title to any waste within their borders that was not disposed of prior to January 1, 1996, and made each state liable for all damages directly related to the waste. The Court, in a 6–3 decision, ruled that the imposition of that obligation on the states violated the Tenth Amendment. Justice O’Connor wrote that the federal government can encourage the states to adopt certain regulations through the spending power (i.e., by attaching conditions to the receipt of federal funds, see South Dakota v. Dole), or through the commerce power (by directly pre-empting state law). However, Congress cannot directly compel states to enforce federal regulations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_A..._to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Jeremy
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:28 am

No doubt we needed reform in this country.
However, in my opinion, it's not the right time for it.
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

People are talking like we were doing surgeries in barns, by candle light, and using whiskey as anesthesia and now, presto---we have entered the modern world!

The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here to utilize it.
I said the best, not perfect though.
We are in poverty according to US standards. We're a family of three, making $20,000 a year so I have wealth envy as much as the next person. Regardless, it's the wealthy people who create the jobs. I have never worked for a poor person.

We do not have health insurance and are fine with it. We still see the doctor and dentist because there are options available for the uninsured.


As for the Republicans stopping progress....No, it was the Dems that had to be bribed into yes votes. The GOP was never on board.
With the 60 vote in the Senate, it should have been a done deal to pass a long time ago but their own party had big problems with the bill.

As I said, it was needed, just not now.
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Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 am

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy. (Among other things not having to worry about health insurance when switching jobs and limiting the damage to entire families and their otherwise productive members when somebody is getting sick.)

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here to utilize it.

The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.
 
flymia
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:42 am

The one big thing that comes to my mind is how non-bipartisanthis bill was. It was not even one sided 34 democrats voted NO!!!! If that does not say something is wrong with this bill I do not know what does. This bill was rushed I do not think there is much doubt about that. Some so large to not be bipartisan is a bit crazy IMO. Look at medicare, social security etc.. Most voted for it in both parties not just some in one.

Also when every doctor I know is highly against this bill I know that something needs to be wrong with it. This bill will have some good changes you cant argue that but I dont think this bill will be as great as everyone say it is and we all know it will end up costing a lot more then predicted
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fr8mech
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:46 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
The one big thing that comes to my mind is how non-bipartisanthis bill was. It was not even one sided 34 democrats voted NO!!!!

The bill was bipartisan...or I should say, opposition was bipartisan and parlimentary tricks and arm twisting and coercio had to be used to get it passed.
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slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:52 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
The bill was bipartisan...or I should say, opposition was bipartisan and parlimentary tricks and arm twisting and coercio had to be used to get it passed.

But in the end, all those against it, still were only a minority, so the bill passed: get over it. it's the will of a majority of the people's delegates. That's called democracy.

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here.

Like it allegedly also has the best schools in the world, if one is to believe many contributers to this forum? 

Reality is that whereas US healthcare is fairly good indeed, it's not top of the league by a wide margin still; maybe it is time to check UN global data on this to stop the flagwaving which is quite common from US posters.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...nd-economy-human-development-index

The USA is at number 10, topped by 8 European nations and Canada... all called 2nd Tier nations somewhere in the first part of this discussion.  Yeah sure

What's more, US heathcare is extremely expensive, far more than in all those countries topping the US....

The reason why you see so many rich people from developing nations come to the US for their healthcare is because countrary to the many European countries outclassing the USA on healthcare, the US system is a purely commercial enterprise where people can simply BUY themselves in. You just can't do that in most places in Europe, no matter how big a check you are willing to write...

[Edited 2010-03-23 08:58:30]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:06 pm

Well while everyone argues in circles again, the real criminals are still running away with the game. The real nonsense in all this is that both halls of Congress have utterly failed the issue, REPEATEDLY. Medical COSTS are what's killing everyone, whether the insurance system is public, private, a hybrid or whatever. Why should doctors spend the time and money going through 12 years of schooling only to have to order every CYA test under the sun on the off chance someone complaining of a headache has a 1 in 250,000 fatal brain lesion? Why haven't either side of the aisle put an end to mindless tort abuses? Why haven't the insurers rallied to that same cause? Answer: fleecing the public is good for all concerned, except the patient, doctor, and those eventually footing the remaining bills. We are slaves to this particular brand of greed, and every last member of Congress is too CS to do anything about it. They're laughing all the way to the bank while everyone fights over the wrong side of the issue.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
CometII
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:39 pm

I said this before and now some in talk radio are picking it up: conservatives need to blame themselves if they don't like the bill.

They whistled in the wind for years and years since 1994 to 2006.... 12 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority. Everyone agrees costs have been spiraling out of control, and they did nothing. Quite simply, they didn't care (since they had their nice little congressional health care).

I don't like many aspects of the bill, but the Republican sudden ''concern'' over the huge cost and coverage problem they displayed in the last 14 months was a complete show and stroke as toally fake.
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:43 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy.

A stable employment environment is the basis of a sound economy. Any progress in the last 12 months just got derailed.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.

So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Why haven't either side of the aisle put an end to mindless tort abuses?

Because most of the politicians are lawyers.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Why haven't the insurers rallied to that same cause?

Because they keep the lawyers in business too.

[Edited 2010-03-23 09:51:16]
 
Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:43 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
You know the difference, and that is that national defense is explicitly addressed in the Preamble to the Constitution whereas public healthcare and/or mandating the purchase of ANYTHING are not.

The focus on the constitution is interesting.

Looking at a topic like, say, Law, the Founding Fathers had significant understanding and experience in this area and it is will covered in the Constitution. The use of British Common Law as one of our legal foundations is a pretty good demonstration of a reliance on what they had been exposed to in their lifetime.

So, what was the status of medicine in the days the constitution? Were they still bleeding people to "cure" them?

The Founding Fathers didn't address medicine or health care because it was basically a non-issue in those days. Therefore Medicine was one of those issues that have to "fit" under other areas or topics of the Constitution, just like NASA does.

Medicine does fall under the General Welfare, it is only the degree that differs between parties, or wings in a party. One only has to think of various plagues over the years, or medical conditions, like polio, that spread throughout the country, but was addressed and preventive medicines distributed with government funding.

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
However, in my opinion, it's not the right time for it.
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

I was watching the news this morning to see the signing. When discussing "benefits" of the bill the first benefit noted was the tax CREDIT to smaller companies. I had forgotten that one, but when you look at small companies to expand their workforce this credit can help them add workers and pay for their health insurance.

For people loosing their jobs, or their insurance because of the high costs of insurance, this is a good step.

For those with pre-existing conditions, or are going through major medical treatments, this is a good step.
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:54 pm

Quoting CometII (Reply 10):
2 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority.

Exactly. We keep hearing about how the GOP was always for removal of pre-existing condition clauses, etc. yet they have ample opportunity to do something about it and didn't. Why is that?

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

You're not suggesting that a wealthy person being without health insurance, is without it for the same reasons that a poor person is without health insurance are you?
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Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:06 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
You're not suggesting that a wealthy person being without health insurance, is without it for the same reasons that a poor person is without health insurance are you?

No. Where did you draw that conclusion from?

1. $250k a year is not wealthy, not where I live. Not even close.
2. If I'm going to pay more taxes - double my medicare taxes that I'll never use by the way, then why are 7 million still left out of the system?
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:06 pm

Quoting starac17 (Thread starter):
It serves as the same function as a insurance company (where you pay for others as well) except the government has a responsibility to the people at large whereas an insurance company has a responsibility to its shareholders.

      Healthcare under democratic control, by the people, for the people!

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
What's more, US heathcare is extremely expensive, far more than in all those countries topping the US....

I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:19:38]
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:27 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy.

A stable employment environment is the basis of a sound economy. Any progress in the last 12 months just got derailed.

As far as I'm aware it has become more affordable and more predictable to have your employees covered with health insurance (either by the employer or separately).

This will mean less trouble with health coverage and at least in total lower health-related risks related to your employees. (Health issues getting treatment before they get so bad that they affect the company.)

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.

So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

In the dual system in Germany I have chosen to use the public insurance option (it would be mandatory if I was in a regular employee position, but being self-employed it's optional). I'm paying the same percentage of my income to the insurance as somebody with lower income does. In total I will pay more as long as my income remains higher. And lower-income families, for instance, have it easier to get coverage because part of their cost is cross-subsidized by others.

Should I some day not be able to sustain my income level any more, my insurance premium will be adjusted downwards as well. And it does not depend on my health – should I get sick more often when I get older, my premium will remain unaffected (while it usually rises progressively with advancing age in a private insurance).

In my more productive and more healthy years I have certainly paid more than I used, but if the tables may have turned one day I would still have decent coverage if I actually needed it and if I might have a problem affording rising premiums otherwise.

From my point of view this is a pretty good deal all in all, particularly in the long term.

I call it solidarity — you may call it socialism but it actually works pretty well in real life.

Of course drug pricing and many other problems affect our health system as well, and further reforms will still be necessary as we go, but the fundamental principle is sound and attractive.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:28 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 16):
Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?

Look, if you're going to throw this stuff around, you need to at least be informed about the field. If you're talking about R&D for pharmaceuticals and university hospitals pioneering treatment methodologies that's one thing - but technology alone is quite another. Two of the largest providers of medical imaging equipment in the world are Philips and Siemens - and neither are American corporations.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:35 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Look, if you're going to throw this stuff around, you need to at least be informed about the field.

Don't get all spun up. It was in response to this comment:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

He's probably never been in a US hospital, much less the US and he says we've had decades of neglect? Really?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
As far as I'm aware it has become more affordable and more predictable to have your employees covered with health insurance (either by the employer or separately).

We didn't have a health care insurance problem until wage controls were put in place by the government during WWII. That is when the healthcare insurance problem began in the US. In lieu of compensation, benefits packages were offered. Then lower cost services became limited to those with benefits and the spiral began. Prior to that, people just had catastrophic insurance and paid out of pocket. Costs never grew exponentially because they couldn't get the money out of a consumer like they could from an insurance provider.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:38:08]
 
AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:37 pm

Biden say's it best .... just in case the President didnt quite get it yet. Biden quote: " This is a Big Fu**ing deal"

turn your volume up ..its priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 16):
Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?

Actually, it's very often the other way round. The U.S. companies buy advances in another countries (often funded from national budgets). One of those Finnish inventions from my city is now here (ex-Bionx Implants, since 2003)
http://www.conmed.com/products_knee_fixation.php

If I may add, the medical faculties here also pay the going price for all American intellectual property, which I suppose will in part cover the R&D expenses.

.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:53 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
But in the end, all those against it, still were only a minority, so the bill passed: get over it. it's the will of a majority of the people's delegates. That's called democracy.

I understand how a democracy works. Your wording was absolutely correct and I'm guessing very well chosen because the will of the people was ignored.

Quoting CometII (Reply 10):
12 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority

You may be correct here. Was tort reform floated? Insurance reform (since this is what this is) put on the table? How about addressing acces for those that truly have a problem with access? I don't know, I think I 've heard somr of that stuff over the years.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):

I call it solidarity

Yup, we all wind up in the same leaky POS boat together. Mediocrity.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:54 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
That's called democracy.

Also known as tyranny of the majority. That is why America is not a democracy, but a constitutionally limited republic. Or used to be. The fact that you don't get that distinction is the root of the disagreement.

In a constitutionally limited republic there are things you don't get to do - even if you are a majority. Kill people. Take people's things against their will. Force people to act in ways they do not want.

To you, though, doing the second two of those is fine if 50.0001% of the rest of the people agree with you. Unsurprisingly, regimes that embrace this principle eventually start doing the first one too.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:56:36]
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:56 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 21):
Actually, it's very often the other way round. The U.S. companies buy advances in another countries (often funded from national budgets). One of those Finnish inventions from my city is now here (ex-Bionx Implants, since 2003)
http://www.conmed.com/products_knee_fixation.php

If I may add, the medical faculties here also pay the going price for all American intellectual property, which I suppose will in part cover the R&D expenses.

So you haven't been here or in any of our hospitals then. Leaving you with absolutely no basis for your comment:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

Thank you for confirming that which I assumed to be true. Now kindly keep your comments to yourself about the quality of our medical care here in the US. Care which you know nothing about other than overstated media reports and political propaganda.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:57:40]
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:06 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
Yup, we all wind up in the same leaky POS boat together. Mediocrity.

With everybody in the same boat, there's actually a lot more incentive and political pressure to not have it be a "leaky POS". And in most civilized countries the medical systems are actually quite decent.

I can also get any additional insurance to improve my coverage in certain areas where I want, and I have done that.

But the baseline is already solid and won't bankrupt me even if things should go wrong on several fronts at the same time (which they sometimes do, and which is one of the reasons why insurance is a good idea in the first place).
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:09 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 24):
So you haven't been here or in any of our hospitals then.

The problem is not with the hospitals as such but with who can get treated there and what it does to their economic survival, especially for middle-class or lower-income families.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 24):
So you haven't been here or in any of our hospitals then. Leaving you with absolutely no basis for your comment:

I know for a fact the public healthcare here will pay the American firms every cent they may charge for the use of their intellectual property. If that leaves the American R&D efforts dry, not really our problem.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 24):
Care which you know nothing about other than overstated media reports and political propaganda.

So the cost of U.S. healthcare is actually not nearly double to your next-door neighbour?

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 23):
Force people to act in ways they do not want.

I just heard it's actually unconstitutional in the U.S. to hire people for work .. people can't be forced to commute to work on a Monday morning against their will...

[Edited 2010-03-23 11:18:39]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:13 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
You know the difference, and that is that national defense is explicitly addressed in the Preamble to the Constitution whereas public healthcare and/or mandating the purchase of ANYTHING are not.

The focus on the constitution is interesting.

Looking at a topic like, say, Law, the Founding Fathers had significant understanding and experience in this area and it is will covered in the Constitution. The use of British Common Law as one of our legal foundations is a pretty good demonstration of a reliance on what they had been exposed to in their lifetime.

So, what was the status of medicine in the days the constitution? Were they still bleeding people to "cure" them?

The Founding Fathers didn't address medicine or health care because it was basically a non-issue in those days. Therefore Medicine was one of those issues that have to "fit" under other areas or topics of the Constitution, just like NASA does.

Medicine does fall under the General Welfare, it is only the degree that differs between parties, or wings in a party. One only has to think of various plagues over the years, or medical conditions, like polio, that spread throughout the country, but was addressed and preventive medicines distributed with government funding.

The problem with your theory is the General Welfare clause in Article I Section 8 is merely an introduction to the enumerated powers that follow and not an overall grant of power to Congress. Another point to consider is that in the Preamble, the words "provide" and "promote" have completely different meanings - the government is charged with PROVIDING for the common defense of the nation as a whole, and PROMOTING the general welfare - not providing it outright.

Read on:

http://constitutionalawareness.org/genwelf.html
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:15 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
it's the will of a majority of the people's delegates. That's called democracy.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
Your wording was absolutely correct and I'm guessing very well chosen because the will of the people was ignored.

And how do YOU know what the will of the people is? By opinion polls, or street interviews on Fox news?

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 23):
Also known as tyranny of the majority. That is why America is not a democracy, but a constitutionally limited republic. Or used to be. The fact that you don't get that distinction is the root of the disagreement.

Look, let's get real here for a minute, shall we?

The only thing better than a representative democracy, is a system where binding referendums are possible.

Switzerland is such a country for instance, but I don't know of many other examples really.

The USA is a parliamentary democracy just like so many others. For one reason or another, Americans have the odd habit of thinking their constitution is some kind of a one-off, highly unique document: reality is it is a fairly common constitution for a federal state....

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 23):
Unsurprisingly, regimes that embrace this principle eventually start doing the first one too.

please, get real, will you?

There are countries on the surface of this earth, which were democracies well before America was discovered even, let alone founded, yet in none of these countries the things you suggest have happened...
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:17 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 27):
So the cost of U.S. healthcare is actually not nearly double to your next-door neighbour?

What does cost have to do with it? Its your life. You can't put a dollar figure on that. Cost is irrelevant. Besides, no one is denied medical treatment in the US. Not one person. If my premiums are higher beacsue of that, then I don't really care. My issue is a government telling me what is and isn't appropriate. Maybe you don't get that part of the equation, it seems that many from other countries don't understand that about us. It is what it is.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 29):
There are countries on the surface of this earth, which were democracies well before America was discovered even, let alone founded, yet in none of these countries the things you suggest have happened...

Yeah. Most of them collapsed and were reborn as something else entirely different.

[Edited 2010-03-23 11:21:54]
 
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OA412
Crew
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
What does cost have to do with it? Its your life. You can't put a dollar figure on that.

So is this the argument that we're now going to use to defend the insurers and justify the fact that healthcare costs in this country are out of control?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:20 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
What does cost have to do with it? Its your life. You can't put a dollar figure on that.

Ok, ok, I just thought I heard people complain about the "high cost" of this program somewhere. You might want to have a word or two with them then so that I dont have to, since you're a local?

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
Besides, no one is denied medical treatment in the US. Not one person.

That's brilliant. Spending twice our costs, you're in the same position as us, only we don't have to sell all our property to the church rat level in order to get our treatment!

[Edited 2010-03-23 11:27:49]
 
AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:25 pm

Do the idiot democrats have to make a racial issue out of everything ! Whats with all the civil rights movement veterans being made the face of this reform ??

Are they saying that African Americans need free stuff more than other Americans ? .... outrageous ! And I was haveing a good damn day!!... African Americans are well capable of raising families and providing for themselves just like any one else ... god these poloticians are just lame!. Do you find this offensive ??
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:25 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 32):
Ok, ok, I just tought I heard people complain about the "high cost" of this program somewhere. I think you might want to have a word or two with them then?

People always complain. They complain about the cost of housing and cars too. Does that mean I should help them buy a house and a car?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 31):
So is this the argument that we're now going to use to defend the insurers and justify the fact that healthcare costs in this country are out of control?

Amazing how loud people can get on an issue when they want something they think they are entitled to.

[Edited 2010-03-23 11:25:46]
 
slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:31 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
Yeah. Most of them collapsed and were reborn as something else entirely different.

Seems like you have a lot of reading to do: it would definitely do you well to look beyond the borders of the USA to see there's a whole world out there that does not live in outright poverty, total darkness nor deep caves, but actually matches or even exceeds the US levels of well-being and freedom, while having a much longer history!

Enough said.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:32 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 34):

People always complain. They complain about the cost of housing and cars too. Does that mean I should help them buy a house and a car?

That's entirely your choice. There are charities, I suppose.
 
BMI727
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:35 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 35):
even exceeds the US levels of well-being and freedom

And levels of taxes.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 36):
That's entirely your choice.

But healthcare no longer is.

[Edited 2010-03-23 11:35:33]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
But healthcare no longer is.

Real men can take it. Just look at me for instance, do you see me crying?
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 35):
Seems like you have a lot of reading to do: it would definitely do you well to look beyond the borders of the USA to see there's a whole world out there that does not live in outright poverty, total darkness nor deep caves, but actually matches or even exceeds the US levels of well-being and freedom, while having a much longer history!

Enough said.

Who needs to read when you can travel and see for yourself? Maybe you should come visit the US and see for yourself rather than read. And I don't mean visiting New York or LA. We're a big country.
 
slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
No one is denied medical treatment in the US. Not one person!
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 32):
Great! Spending twice as much, you're in the same position as us, only we don't have to sell all our property to the church rat level in order to get our treatment!

ROTFL

That's actually a very good summary of the US healthcare system: Not better, but far more expensive!

Want to make a guess why?

Because it's extremely profit driven and like was said here

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 30):
What does cost have to do with it? Its your life. You can't put a dollar figure on that. Cost is irrelevant.

Indeed, without government stepping in, those providing healthcare will keep squeezing out more money from the ill and the sick and force them to sell a leg even, just to get the threatment they need to save their live...

Sad, given that it is widely demonstrated one can get the same results WITHOUT people having to be ruined financially and loose all they have worked their entire life for, just because they happen to have an illness...
 
slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
And levels of taxes.

There's no such a thing as a free lunch.

However, the more insured, the lower the risk, and thus the lower the premium, so I really fail to see why anybody can object the idea of insuring ALL people. If you don't have an insurance yet, you should be happy for getting one, and if you do have one already, your premiums should actually get lower over time...

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 39):
Who needs to read when you can travel and see for yourself? Maybe you should come visit the US and see for yourself rather than read. And I don't mean visiting New York or LA. We're a big country.

Sir, I've been living a total of 3 years in your country and it wasn't even near NY or LA.

As such, I think I've come to know the USA fairly well, but thank you for the offer.
 
Boeing1970
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:56 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 41):
Sir, I've been living a total of 3 years in your country and it wasn't even near NY or LA.

As such, I think I've come to know the USA fairly well, but thank you for the offer.

Good. Then you know how vastly superior our medical services are.
 
johnboy
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:56 pm

 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 42):
Good. Then you know how vastly superior our medical services are.

Tenth best according the the UN, behind no less than 7 European nations amongst which mine, so superior to just what or who, if I may ask you?

Mexico? definitely!

Western-Europe? I wouldn't be sure....
 
BMI727
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 41):
There's no such a thing as a free lunch.

I have no problems paying for my lunch, but everyone else's as well?

Quoting slz396 (Reply 41):
your premiums should actually get lower over time...

I would hope so, but I am skeptical at best. And if all the savings are offset by tax hikes then there is no point.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:06 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 23):
In a constitutionally limited republic there are things you don't get to do - even if you are a majority. Kill people. Take people's things against their will. Force people to act in ways they do not want.

Of course we can do those things. For example, the death penalty, taxes, and mandatory education, respectively. All perfectly consistent with a constitutionally limited government.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 14):
1. $250k a year is not wealthy, not where I live. Not even close.

If you're making $250k a year, you're earning more than 98.5 percent of Americans. Don't kid yourself, that's wealthy. If you choose to spend that wealth on living in an especially desirable place where the cost of living is high, that's your choice, but it doesn't make you not wealthy, any more than spending $250k on a car and having nothing left makes you not wealthy.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:09 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
I would hope so, but I am skeptical at best

That's where I agree with you...

for as long as this mechanism is left in the hands of private insurance companies, it isn't very likely they will fully factor on the inherent lower risks from having more people (amongst them a fair amount of healthy ones) insured....

Somehow I see it more likely they will see most of it as 'extra margin' to increase their corporate profits...

Which is why I think the plan to get an insurance for all is good, but the compromise to leave it to the market to provide it, is a bad one... The profit aspect of the health insurance should have been taken out, or at least have been extremely limited.

But then I know you won't agree on that point.  
 
BMI727
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:14 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 46):
Don't kid yourself, that's wealthy.

Not really. It depends a lot on where you are, but for the most part in America having a family income of $250k per year is a comfortable middle class life, but certainly not wealthy.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 47):
Somehow I see it more likely they will see most of it as 'extra margin' to increase their corporate profits...

  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
f $250k per year is a comfortable middle class life

Is it based on "income" or "taxable income"?
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