Fly2HMO
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The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:17 pm

So if you're an avid gear-head like moi you probably have heard of many different ways to break in an engine. In preparation of receiving my new car I've been doing some research, just to be sure.

Basically from my previous experience breaking in smaller R/C engines with a similar method, and from opening up car engines, this seems to be the best method for break in, as harsh as it sounds:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Now at first glance it may sound harsh to the engine, but it really isn't when done properly. This is essentially same method that is mentioned in all the manuals for the dozens off R/C engines I've owned. Basically turn on the engine, let it warm up, then give it full bore for a minute, then slowly reduce back to idle for a minute, then repeat. I've broken up all R/C my engines at one point or another for servicing and they all have been in excellent condition without any burnt piston walls.

The engines we use in my brothers buggy (VW bug engines) are usually used. We always have to re-ring the pistons or straight up get new pistons eventually and when we open them up to inspect them they always have burnt piston walls. But after we change them and break them in the "rough way" we never have that problem, and the engines do seem to keep their power better (we open up the engine for other reasons however.)

I don't know what the manual for my car will say (yes I have an instruction-manual reading fetish) but if it's like every car I've seen before it will probably have a limitation on the RPMs, probably saying to not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so. I'm not too sure I agree with that. My guess is that manufacturers just over-simplify the break in procedure, and 99% of car owners wouldn't be arsed to read the manual anyways.

So fellow gear-heads, what's your take on it?   
 
Kiwirob
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:25 pm

I couldn't care less about break in I drive them from day 1 like I drive them on the last day I own them, I've never had an engine go pop or had any engine damage what-so-ever.

The only engine that I have run in according to the instructions is my Husky since I'm going to keep her for a very long time.

Big version: Width: 775 Height: 499 File size: 94kb


[Edited 2010-03-24 09:27:05]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:37 pm

Interesting gearhead topic.

I agree that giving an engine a proper full-throttle treatment early in its life probably is a good idea, seating and tempering the components at stress for 10-15 minutes.

But unlike an RC engine, how are going to run a car engine at full throttle for 10-15 minutes without ending up in jail? Remember it's not just RPMs you need, but load as well. With an RC engine, you run it with the propeller. A car has to be run with road and/or wind resistance. So unless you have a rolling road assembly, (or you live in Germany), you can't run in a car this way.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But unlike an RC engine, how are going to run a car engine at full throttle for 10-15 minutes without ending up in jail? Remember it's not just RPMs you need, but load as well. With an RC engine, you run it with the propeller. A car has to be run with road and/or wind resistance. So unless you have a rolling road assembly, (or you live in Germany), you can't run in a car this way.

Well of course you can't. The R/C procedure I mentioned was just an example. In a car all you really want to do is cycle it throughout the RPM range giving it a decent load and then release it. From what I've read short high load bursts followed by coasting in gear will do the trick. Easy to do in daily driving without getting in too much trouble.  
 
pilotsmoe
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:39 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
Now at first glance it may sound harsh to the engine, but it really isn't when done properly. This is essentially same method that is mentioned in all the manuals for the dozens off R/C engines I've owned. Basically turn on the engine, let it warm up, then give it full bore for a minute, then slowly reduce back to idle for a minute, then repeat. I've broken up all R/C my engines at one point or another for servicing and they all have been in excellent condition without any burnt piston walls.

RC engines usualy have tapered nickel or chrome plated cylinder bores, and this type of engine doesn't do too good running slobbering rich due to the interference fit of the cylinder sleeve. Best to open it up so it gets up to temperature. Not the case with a ringed piston, though.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:58 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so.

I've never had any of my 3 trucks over 3000 RPM, ever. And the low mileage one just passed 110,000 miles. Maybe that's why I get 300, 000 miles or more from all my vehicles.

That aside, new cars these days do not need any special break in procedures, the engines can take everything you can throw at them. Just accept that if you really do take an engine, any engine, to 4500 RPM regularly it won't last too long.
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Flighty
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
but if it's like every car I've seen before it will probably have a limitation on the RPMs, probably saying to not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so. I'm not too sure I agree with that.

I think you should consider agreeing with it. Who designed the engine? Who engineered the fluids the car shipped out with? Don't you think they have broken in 100s of motors, and know the exact perfect way to do it?

Ignoring clear instructions like this is, on some level, like saying the guys who built the motor don't know how it works. Maybe they designed the rings for the particular break-in procedure they wrote up.

In newer cars, long oil change intervals mean that the engine must be engineered to last properly, given the maintenance schedule provided. I have faith they are telling us the correct information.

One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)
 
Cadet57
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles.

My VW has the same deal. That just goes against everything I ever learned about cars. I wanted to change it anyway but 1) there is no service port and 2) they don't even sell the filter aftermarket
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Kiwirob
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:27 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 5):
Just accept that if you really do take an engine, any engine, to 4500 RPM regularly it won't last too long.

Better not drive any high performance car from Italy cause you be doing that and more all the time.
 
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 pm

I ahve bought more than 20 new Ford products in my life time, to date. I have always "babied" the engines for the first 500 miles, by not going over 2000 RPM or about 60 MPH (98kph). I have never had an engine problem with any Ford product I have bought. My son once bought a brand new 2003 Chevy Silverado and was told to drive it hard to break it in, the block cracked after about 350 miles. Then the Chevy dealer tried to tell him it was not covered because he did not change the oil. The Factory Rep for GM overruled and said the first oils change was not due at only 350 miles and the Chevy dealer installed a new short block, and used his heads, etc.. In 2006, he traded it for a new F-150 and has not had a problem with the Ford. He just replaced his 2006 F-150 with a new 2010 F-150.
 
Flighty
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
I wanted to change it anyway but 1) there is no service port and 2) they don't even sell the filter aftermarket

At least on the BMW product (a ZF 5 speed unit in my relative's case), there is ability to change the fluid. But as a "marketing point" they tell you it never needs changing. (Which is definite BS).

So these days it's hard to know if the manufacturer instructions (for break-in or for maintenance) are truly written to help you keep your vehicle happy, or if written by marketing. It is hard to know.

If you ever read old Mercedes maintenance it's absolutely hilarious. Have a mechanic inspect and lubricate everything every 1,000 miles. Replace a bunch of wear parts annually. It's like an aircraft mx manual.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
So these days it's hard to know if the manufacturer instructions (for break-in or for maintenance) are truly written to help you keep your vehicle happy, or if written by marketing. It is hard to know.

Agreed. I think it's mostly the latter.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):

If you ever read old Mercedes maintenance it's absolutely hilarious. Have a mechanic inspect and lubricate everything every 1,000 miles. Replace a bunch of wear parts annually. It's like an aircraft mx manual.

The manual for my grandpas old (but mint condition) 280C coupe was just like you said. Very detailed. Wish they were all still like that. It's hard enough to get a hold of factory maintenance manuals as it is nowadays.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:35 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
I think you should consider agreeing with it. Who designed the engine? Who engineered the fluids the car shipped out with? Don't you think they have broken in 100s of motors, and know the exact perfect way to do it?

Ignoring clear instructions like this is, on some level, like saying the guys who built the motor don't know how it works. Maybe they designed the rings for the particular break-in procedure they wrote up.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)

So I'm a bit confused - why do you implicitly trust them on one thing, but not another? If they are erroneous on the transmission fluid, that would make me suspect they might be wrong on other aspects of car care as well.

And it's not always as clear cut as saying "not following their instructions means you think they don't know how it works." For example, 3000 mile oil changes might not be needed in a lot of cars. But the dealers sure will make more money if everyone brings in their car every 3000 miles. So it's certainly in their interest to recommend it.
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Molykote
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)

It's the perfect cover story really. Never change the fluid because it's a "lifetime fill". Of course, when the transmission dies at 90k miles because you didn't change the fluid, this is the "lifetime".

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
Basically from my previous experience breaking in smaller R/C engines with a similar method, and from opening up car engines, this seems to be the best method for break in, as harsh as it sounds:

My uncle rebuild bike engines for amateur and semi professional racers in his spare time. He uses a similar method and says that engines undergoing such a procedure perform great and last longer than when following manufacturer's break in guidelines (mostly Honda and Suzuki engines).

Take the above for what it's worth because everyone will have a story about their friend Jim who blows snot into the cylinders before break in, only does a break in under a full moon, etc. I have seen a number of torn down engines and I will say that those he's worked over do seem to be in fantastic shape at the end of their useful (racing) rebuild life.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
So fellow gear-heads, what's your take on it?   

For what it's worth, I'd just follow the manufacturer's instructions - an increasing number of which now advise that no break in procedure is necessary.
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Molykote
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:54 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
So I'm a bit confused - why do you implicitly trust them on one thing, but not another? If they are erroneous on the transmission fluid, that would make me suspect they might be wrong on other aspects of car care as well.

Honestly, BMW's "global war on maintenance" is only worth respecting if you're dumping the car before 60k miles. Almost any car in production can make that interval with barely an oil change (that's to say it will likely last that long, not that abnormal wear won't have taken place).

The BMW CCA publishes an "old school maintenance schedule" for those looking to hold on to their cars. It's not an "overkill" document for people who baby their cars. Rather, it's a sensible maintenance schedule that lies somewhere between what BMW prescribed for maintenance when the owner footed the bill (massive) and what BMW prescribes now that maintenance is ignored... I mean included  

The author asks that it not be published online so I'll respect these wishes. However, any interested party may be able to find it. Any BMW CCA member can e-mail the author directly.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
And it's not always as clear cut as saying "not following their instructions means you think they don't know how it works." For example, 3000 mile oil changes might not be needed in a lot of cars. But the dealers sure will make more money if everyone brings in their car every 3000 miles. So it's certainly in their interest to recommend it.

I wouldn't listen to 90%+ of dealers when it comes to technical service advice. This is simply because too many of them shoot from the hip without doing adequate technical research, have not received adequate technical training, or simply don't care.

I'd absolutely trust information in an owner's manual or TSB before the word of a salesman. If the salesman presents adequate and effective technical documentation along with this claim, this is a different situation that him/her making a casual and unsubstantiated claim.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:06 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):
an increasing number of which now advise that no break in procedure is necessary.

True. Which makes sense. The precision CNC machining, materials, and other techniques used to build engines nowadays are significantly superior to stuff made from even just 15 years ago.

The only other break-in method I approve of somewhat is to drive it just like you normally would to begin with. However, a person with a spirited driving style will most likely have a better broken-in engine than somebody that drives like an old lady to church.

Honestly though, if you put two identical engines side by side, one broken in old-lady style, and the other the more aggressive way, they could very well have the exact same lifespan. BUT one engine, and most likely the aggressive one, will maintain its power and compression for much longer than the other.
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:44 am

Not only the engine, but brakes, tires, transmission, suspension and other components need to be 'broken in' for about 500 miles from new or when those components are replaced. By breaking in to me, it means not 'flooring' the gas, not doing drag racing like starts, not operating the engine under heavy loads or high revs and holding the overall speed to normal speed limits. I don't think they use 'break in' oils anymore, but I wouldn't go more than 4,000 miles before the 1st Oil change with filter change, to rinse out any bits and potential problems junk. It also allows you (if you go to the dealer) to get any bugs worked out, see if any abnormal wear issues and so on.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 16):
but I wouldn't go more than 4,000 miles before the 1st Oil change with filter change, to rinse out any bits and potential problems junk.

With a new car, I'll change the oil and filter after only 1000 miles. Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.
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vikkyvik
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:23 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
I wouldn't listen to 90%+ of dealers when it comes to technical service advice. This is simply because too many of them shoot from the hip without doing adequate technical research, have not received adequate technical training, or simply don't care.

Oh, absolutely. I was actually very pleasantly surprised when I bought my new car a couple weeks ago, and the salesman told me regular maintenance would be every 6000 miles or so - which is about what I would have done anyway.

Even with a brand new car, I have no plans to take it to the dealer for servicing (unless it's something they'll do for free). The mechanic I go to is extremely trustworthy, quick, and cost-effective.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
Honestly, BMW's "global war on maintenance" is only worth respecting if you're dumping the car before 60k miles. Almost any car in production can make that interval with barely an oil change (that's to say it will likely last that long, not that abnormal wear won't have taken place).

The BMW CCA publishes an "old school maintenance schedule" for those looking to hold on to their cars. It's not an "overkill" document for people who baby their cars. Rather, it's a sensible maintenance schedule that lies somewhere between what BMW prescribed for maintenance when the owner footed the bill (massive) and what BMW prescribes now that maintenance is ignored... I mean included

Fair enough. I don't know a whole lot about BMWs or their required maintenance.....aside from suspecting that it's probably more expensive than mine  
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WarRI1
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:30 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
I have always "babied" the engines for the first 500 miles, by not going over 2000 RPM or about 60 MPH (98kph). I have never had an

Same here.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
With a new car, I'll change the oil and filter after only 1000 miles. Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.

No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1
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Cadet57
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:01 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1

I've never bought a new car before. I just jump into my normal mx schedule :P
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:11 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.

I've known a few people (specially pilots) that do occasional engine oil analysis on their engines. It's really interesting to compare before/after the lab results and see the drastic drop in metallic particulates once an engine is broken in.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1

I've seen a lot of people saying that for engine break in it is best to use thicker mineral oils than thinner synthetics. That's another thing I'm not too sure I agree with. I guess if anything I'd go with a thick (15W-50 or higher) synthetic, but those weights are extremely hard to find in synthetic.

By the way, fellow motor-heads, is Amsoil any good? I know several people that swear by it but I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that.
 
Cadet57
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:28 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
is Amsoil any good?

Couple jeep friends use it, love it. One of my hot rod friends uses it too, no complaints. My dad used it in his F150 for awhile. He now uses Rotella in the F250.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:55 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
I've seen a lot of people saying that for engine break in it is best to use thicker mineral oils than thinner synthetics. That's another thing I'm not too sure I agree with. I guess if anything I'd go with a thick (15W-50 or higher) synthetic, but those weights are extremely hard to find in synthetic.

The advantage of synthetics is mainly that it doesn't break down or sludge with high temps - probably not a problem for a brand new engine where you plan on making the first oil change after only 1000 miles or so, unless you immediately take it for blasts down the autobahn, or perhaps if you have a turbocharger.

I'd use a nice, thin oil that gets everywhere, like a 5W-30.
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WarRI1
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:14 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that.

My Chevy truck came with Mobile 1 from the factory according to the dealer. I still use it, I change it at 3 thousand miles with filter. The guys at the garage, save it, and use it in their vehicles. My brother has a Ford truck, same 3K, same garage, they re-use his oil also. I guess they have faith in Mobile 1, or want to save a buck.
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Cadet57
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:16 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
I guess they have faith in Mobile 1, or want to save a buck.

I'm going 5000 miles on mobil1. Thats what VW recommends for my car, and hell now the interval is 10k and they're still using mobil1.
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WarRI1
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 25):
I'm going 5000 miles on mobil1. Thats what VW recommends for my car, and hell now the interval is 10k and they're still using mobil1.

5k is no problem with Mobile 1 according to what I have read. 10K Wow! Good stuff and not all that expensive with that mileage. If VW says that, I would believe it.
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Flighty
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:09 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
And it's not always as clear cut as saying "not following their instructions means you think they don't know how it works." For example, 3000 mile oil changes might not be needed in a lot of cars. But the dealers sure will make more money if everyone brings in their car every 3000 miles. So it's certainly in their interest to recommend it.

You are right, I was not fair to criticize the poster. It is sometimes reasonable to believe the instructions are written for "ease" and "lack of shop visits." However I doubt the error is going to warn us of non existent problems. When they tell you not to rev beyond 4000 rpm for the first 1000 miles, maybe that is a good indication there is some reason why not.

They definitely know the answers, but yeah, in the end, we don't know.

 
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:22 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 25):
they're still using mobil1.

Hmm... Newer VW's and BMWs come with castrol synthetic from the factory. Where did your do your changes?
 
KevinL1011
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:18 am

Since I first began working on cars / engines in 1969, recommendations for engine "break in" have changed. The term "break in" refers to the initial wear period of new internally lubricated moving parts. In todays modern alloy engines, there isn't much that needs a "break in" proceedure except the piston rings. If the piston rings don't "break in" or "seat" properly you will have an engine that burns oil. Here are some points that I've read or been told :

1. Do not exceed the RPM limit of the engine.
2. Avoid continuous sustained RPM. It's best to vary.
3. Do NOT change the break in oil too soon. The abrasive particles in solution with the engine oil actually help the break in proceedure. Go at least 5k miles + before the first change. Some manufacturers use a non-detergent break in oil for this reason.
4. Rapid acceleration and WOT are actually good. When an engine is making horsepower, the pressure inside the combustion chamber increases and pushes the piston rings harder against the cylinder walls. This helps to wear in the rings. Just be careful not to over-rev the engine.

About synthetic oil. The benefits are lack of viscosity breakdown and synthetics don't degrade the seals and gaskets like petroleum oil.
HOWEVER, synthetic oil gets just as dirty and just as fast as petroleum oil. Yeah it lasts longer but your engine will contaminate it with hydrocarbons and particulates just as fast as any oil.
Also, if your engine has been broken in with a petroleum oil, switching to a synthetic has little or no benefit. The engine is a chunk of porous metal, just like a frying pan. When you cook on a brand new frying pan for the first time, the food sticks because the pan hasn't been "seasoned". Once an engine has been "seasoned" with whatever oil is in there from the factory, that oil is cooked into the metals and seals 4-ever. So if you're wanting to use a synthetic oil, change it immediately after you drive home. Then leave it in there for 5k+ miles and drive the piss out of it!

BTW, those of you who think that you're doing your engine a favor by changing the oil every 3k miles, you're not. Changing the oil too often actually increases gasket and seal errosion due to the high detergent properties in new oil. Changing the oil every 4-5k is good.

BTW #2, If Falstaff ever posts here, you can take what he says to the bank.   
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:00 am

Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 29):
Since I first began working on cars / engines in 1969, recommendations for engine "break in" have changed.

Great post.

Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 29):
BTW #2, If Falstaff ever posts here, you can take what he says to the bank.

Where is he? Haven't seen him around much.
 
KevinL1011
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:22 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 30):
Great post.

Thanks! The article you linked is pretty much spot on for custom built engines however production car engines are far more forgiving. The biggest risk of not breaking in an engine properly is oil consumption. Surprisingly, most manufacturers consider using 1qt of oil every 1500 miles within limits! On my vehicles, I drive then until they're 1qt low and then add a qt. The next time it's a qt. low, I change it. Works perfectly!

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 30):
Where is he? Haven't seen him around much.

Yeah. He was no help in Mirrodies Air Horn thread and I know that kind of stuff gives him wood. Ever since his RR got above 50, he thinks we're not worthy.    I'm going to send him a nasty IM and rattle his cage.   
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
My Chevy truck came with Mobile 1 from the factory according to the dealer. I still use it, I change it at 3 thousand miles with filter. The guys at the garage, save it, and use it in their vehicles. My brother has a Ford truck, same 3K, same garage, they re-use his oil also. I guess they have faith in Mobile 1, or want to save a buck.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
By the way, fellow motor-heads, is Amsoil any good? I know several people that swear by it but I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
5k is no problem with Mobile 1 according to what I have read. 10K Wow! Good stuff and not all that expensive with that mileage. If VW says that, I would believe it.

Is there a reason you guys cant spell Mobil? You see a big gas station sign with the spelling probably everyday..

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
By the way, fellow motor-heads, is Amsoil any good? I know several people that swear by it but I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that

It depends which Amsoil you use, some are not true synthetics even though they say they are.

Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 29):
Also, if your engine has been broken in with a petroleum oil, switching to a synthetic has little or no benefit. The engine is a chunk of porous metal, just like a frying pan. When you cook on a brand new frying pan for the first time, the food sticks because the pan hasn't been "seasoned". Once an engine has been "seasoned" with whatever oil is in there from the factory, that oil is cooked into the metals and seals 4-ever. So if you're wanting to use a synthetic oil, change it immediately after you drive home. Then leave it in there for 5k+ miles and drive the piss out of it!

Thats actually quite incorrect if you flush out your engine with an Ester based low weight oil such as Redline 0W20/40 (or even use Auto-Rx). PAO synthetics will do nothing yes, but if flushed with the right stuff then the effects are very much positive.

But yes, just simply putting in a synthetic after a mineral will do nothing, and in fact you can get leaks because the dino oil soaked seals and gaskets change size with synthetics.
 
KevinL1011
Posts: 2858
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:48 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:46 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 32):
Thats actually quite incorrect if you flush out your engine with an Ester based low weight oil such as Redline 0W20/40 (or even use Auto-Rx). PAO synthetics will do nothing yes, but if flushed with the right stuff then the effects are very much positive.

I beg to differ. Once the pores in the metal have absorbed and have baked in any lubricant, it's there 4-ever. Engine flushes are harmful and I can cite several TSB's from Mfgr's like GM and Honda that warn against engine flushes. Not my opinion, it's fact.

Honda TSB # HSN0206-07

G.M. TSB # 04-06-01-029B

[Edited 2010-03-25 00:07:14]
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:52 am

Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 33):
I beg to differ. Once the pores in the metal have absorbed and have baked in any lubricant, it's there 4-ever. Engine flushes are harmful and I can cite several TSB's from Mfgr's like GM and Honda that warn against engine flushes. Not my opinion, it's fac

Those TSBs dont mean jack as theres also recommendations from almost every manufacturer (and especially GM) not to backflush a heater core. Even though sticking a garden hose with tap water and backflush it always solves the problem of Dex-Cool that turned into sludge. Ive had to do that myself more than once.

BTW, Those TSBs call for flushing machines which I am not talking about at all and do nothing to go into the valves etc.

And tell me this, why does AC Delco (aka General Motors) sell oil flush as seen here in high ambient heat markets specifically for its cars:

http://www.acdelco.com.au/PDFs/Specs_ACDelco_CrankcaseClean.pdf

That AC Delco stuff BTW is mineral based (and consequently crap) and any person with basic knowledge can tell you that dropping even Ester based Biodiesel would clean better than it.

It is actually not fact what you are saying, its just fact that there are dangers to doing it and many factors, and so the American TSB says to not go to Jiffy Lube and use that worthless machine that they use.

Heres some interesting compression tests and seal tests from guys who are cuckoo about this:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...n3&topic=0&Search=true#Post1083082

My point is, there is variation to what you are doing always with oil. See it this way, a 5.7L Hemi with MDS calls for only 5W20 a must because that is the best weight and grade oil overall to use in order for the valves on the MDS to work. The US TSB# forbids and so does the cap to use anything else, however if you go about reading export manuals on the same engine and re-read you note that running 5W30 is also fine in markets where it is hard to attain 5W20 and there hasnt been one documented case of MDS not working because 5W30 was applied.

Fact is, GM warns against it in the US, and on the other side makes products specifically for it. Just like Chrysler warns against using a different oil to the common man, and itself in service manuals calls for the use of a different one.

Know what you are doing that is all I am saying, and dont go believing that an $89 flush at Jiffy Lube is going to do anything except take your money.

[Edited 2010-03-25 01:03:59]
 
KevinL1011
Posts: 2858
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:48 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:37 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
Those TSBs dont mean jack

Well, In fact they do mean jack to a heck of a lot of people in higher places than you and I. Guys like Engineers and Corporate Attorneys who have test data to back them up. Surely, it can be disputed ( I'm not calling you "Shirley") however my point is that absolutely no engine flush will remove the original break in oil from the pores of an engine block, gaskets or seals. Once it's cooked in, it's there for life unless the parts are disassembled and hot tanked.
So, exactly what part of my post was incorrect?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
BTW, Those TSBs call for flushing machines which I am not talking about at all and do nothing to go into the valves etc.

You're correct about the flushing machines but what are you saying about the valves?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
And tell me this, why does AC Delco (aka General Motors) sell oil flush as seen here in high ambient heat markets specifically for its cars:

It's not part of a flush system. It's a crankcase additive to break down excessive varnish or sludge due to lack of maintenance on higher mileage engines. I see nothing wrong with this.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
It is actually not fact what you are saying

Yes it is. The TSB's are a fact and it's also a fact that there's no way that your recommended engine flush is going to remove the break in oil from the pores of an engine block, seals or gaskets. You also agreed with the TSB's in regard to "Flush Systems". It's not what I'm saying, it's what the TSB's are saying that I believe you differ.
I must say though, that if I had an engine that was broken in with petroleum oil and I wanted to convert to a synthetic while maximizing the benefits of a synthetic, I would consider performing your recommendation.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
its just fact that there are dangers to doing it, and so the American TSB says to not go to Jiffy Lube and use that worthless machine that they use.

WTF is the "American TSB"? Well, maybe you're right. Honda's are pretty much American cars anymore but I'm sure that many non-US mfgrs say the same thing. And yes, Jiffy Lube will do more damage than good with their "Flush" services. I call it a "Wallet Flush". I've seen many many cars with the MIL illuminated with code 420 (Not what you potheads think!) "Catalytic Converter Efficiency" after a Jiffy Lube fuel injection service. It contaminates the Catalyst and O2 sensors in many cases. Particularily on Toyota vehicles as they use an "Air Fuel Mixture Sensor" instead of an "Oxygen Sensor".
Don't even get me started on the dangers of transmission flushes.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
See it this way, a 5.7L Hemi with MDS calls for only 5W20 a must because that is the best weight and grade oil overall to use in order for the valves on the MDS to work.

Ah, much more than that Grasshopper! This spec is called out because the engine and vehicle were certified by the EPA for emissions and fuel mileage ratings with this oil. Nothing more. Do you realize how much CAFE affects their corporate profits? If the vehicle were to fail a long term emission test by the EPA and Chrysler finds out the vehicle had an incorrect fill of engine oil, poof! Test data goes out the window. This is why the non US spec is different. They have no EPA to answer to! Yes, you're right. Other viscosities will perform better, particularily in warmer climates. However it is found that thinner oils yield higher mileage and lower emissions.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
Know what you are doing that is all I am saying,

Well, you're also saying that the information I've posted is incorrect which I dispute. What I'm saying is that there's no way to get the break in oil out of the materials in an engine and the subsequent use of a synthetic oil has very limited benefits. Period. You even said it here:

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 32):
But yes, just simply putting in a synthetic after a mineral will do nothing, and in fact you can get leaks because the dino oil soaked seals and gaskets change size with synthetics.

Funny thing is that I believe we both agree on the value and use of synthetic oil and the dangers of engine flushes. I'm just trying to understand what part of my post is, as you said, "actually quite incorrect"?   

Here's something I think we can agree on....
If you have an engine with "Variable Valve Timing", you better pay real good attention to your oil quantity and quality. Engines with Variable Valve Timing ( most all DOHC engines) rely on oil pressure and lubrication for the variable cam timing actuator to operate correctly. (I'll bet nobody knew there was such a thing) Run low on motor oil or long on changing and you'll get a "Check Engine" light with a cam timing code sure as shit. Usually changing the oil will resolve it however if the vehicle exibits signs of "chronic lack of maintenance", LOT767-300ER's above prescription using Red Line is spot on.   
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:24 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles.

More often actually if you tow boats/horse trailer/camper/etc regularly. Then I'd ratchet it down to 75,000 miles. A transmission cooler sized for the job is important too. Although I must say, I don't know many people who buy a brand new BMW V8 and keep them longer than 100,000 miles.
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:28 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 28):
Where did your do your changes?

I've always done them myself. The dealer told me they use Mobil1. Thats what i've always used. However, I did use Castrol on my last oil change (was on sale at Autozone). Will have to see how it held up when I change it in a few weeks....
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Fly2HMO
Topic Author
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 32):
Is there a reason you guys cant spell Mobil? You see a big gas station sign with the spelling probably everyday..

I would've sworn I spelled it correctly. Probably just habit of throwing an E on the end.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 32):
It depends which Amsoil you use, some are not true synthetics even though they say they are.

Which ones? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 37):
The dealer told me they use Mobil1.

Hmm interesting. I wonder if in the states each dealer gets to pick their oil brand. In Mexico they have the "VW" brand, which is just rebranded Castrol.
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:36 pm

For what it's worth, here are my experiemces; I've always used Mobil 1 in my '95 Chev S-10 since new at every 5,000 to 6,000 miles and has recently turned 164,000 miles and has never emitted so much as a puff when starting or showing measurable oil use at change time. Same with 300C, now at 94,000 miles. Same with '05 Silverado now at 61,000 miles. I just picked up a new Silverado Z-71 two days ago and have no plans on changing my seemingly good luck by experimenting with other brands even though some advertisements one sees on the Speed Channel (etc.) about these other brands claiming superiority to Mobil 1 are tempting. I've always used Mobil 1 in other interem vehicles too, but never kept them long enough to testify.

BTW, the new truck's owner manual (which will probably take me a week to read in its entirety) does say this about break-in: no GVW loads and no trailer towing for the first 500 miles. Seems to make sense. Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 8998
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RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 32):
Is there a reason you guys cant spell Mobil? You see a big gas station sign with the spelling probably everyday..

Did not register while typing. I guess my head was in Alabama.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Flighty
Posts: 7880
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:05 am

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 36):
Then I'd ratchet it down to 75,000 miles. A transmission cooler sized for the job is important too. Although I must say, I don't know many people who buy a brand new BMW V8 and keep them longer than 100,000 miles.

You're right, you never want to take transmission fluid to the point of utter breakdown. 60k or 75k is much smarter than 100k.

BMWs last a long time, if they are maintained. You're right, most initial owners don't care about the ATF. But later on, bad ATF will kill many nice cars. IMO!
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:08 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
I wonder if in the states each dealer gets to pick their oil brand.

I'm not sure about VW dealers. But my subie friend told me that the dealer uses "whatever is on sale" So sometimes its valvoline, other times castrol, etc.

I know the independent mechanic I go to who is strictly VW/Audi only uses Castrol and Mobil1.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy

Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:48 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 42):
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
I wonder if in the states each dealer gets to pick their oil brand.
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 42):
I'm not sure about VW dealers. But my subie friend told me that the dealer uses "whatever is on sale" So sometimes its valvoline, other times castrol, etc.

I know the independent mechanic I go to who is strictly VW/Audi only uses Castrol and Mobil1.

An increasing tendency is for manufacturers to create their own oil specifications.

In the past, we'd commonly see an owner's manual call for an SAE oil weight and possibly specify a synthetic requirement. Today, BMW has LL-xx specifications, VW/Audi has 50x.xx, etc.

In the case of BMW (which I am more familar with), Castrol 0w-30 and Mobil1 0w-40 are off the shelf products that meet the appropriate specification for my car (LL-01) - others exist as well. BMW's dealer branded product is a 5w-30 oil made by Castrol.

One may first be struck at the fact that 3 different multweight products all satisfy BMW's spec for use in the same engine. I'll be the first to advise that everything one reads online shouldn't be trusted. However, the common factor (per internet chat) that distinguishes whether or not an oil is BMW approved is the high temp/high shear oil behavior. Many synthetic oils of similar SAE Xw-Y rating not not exhibit adequate HTHS behavior. As an aside, I haven't yet seen a BMW approved oil that (in addition to satisfying BMW HTHS specs) is also labeled as an "Energy Conserving" oil within the API seal present on an oil bottle.

Of course, many requirements exist for a given oil to satisfy an OEM spec. However, the HTHS behavior seems to be the dominant factor in explaining the superficial conflict of (for example) why Castrol's Syntec 0w-30 meets the BMW spec while Mobil's "Mobil1 0w-30" does not (though Mobil1 0w-40 does).

In any case, I'd insist that an approved oil be used, particularly under warranty. Decisions to move away from approved oils aren't catastrophic (and may be better) but this is a long nuanced discussion that I don't feel like having on a board not dedicated to such things.
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