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fxramper
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War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:25 pm

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's visit to Mexico this week to chat about the war on drugs is the first major diplomatic visit since an American foreign-service worker and two consular officials' husbands were murdered on March 13

What are you thoughts on a surge to assist the growing problem? I don't think building a fence or sending additional federal agents to the border is going to help long term.



Newsweek article
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:44 pm

Legalize the drugs, tax the crap out of them. Solves two problems right there.

Until then the mess shall continue.
 
NIKV69
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:49 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
Legalize the drugs, tax the crap out of them. Solves two problems right there.

Until then the mess shall continue.

Yep, pretty basic. Legalize it all. Cartels fall and we make money. People are going to get it not matter how much we fight it so we also save all the money spent trying to catch and prosecute.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Cartels fall

You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?

They won't go quietly. They'll undercut the government. They'll make the government bleed cash at the very least. People will still buy drugs from illicit cartels.

And if for some reason their drug money dries up, they'll get into something else. Rest assured.
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desertjets
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:12 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?

There is a fair level of naivete behind the belief that legalizing it all would solve all of the problems associated with the war on drugs. I think having Marijuana as a schedule 5 narcotic is absolutely assanine. At that level it is next to impossible to do legitimate research. If pot was made legal I'd imagine it would have a noticable impact on the drug cartels as legit suppliers and distributors take over the production and sale of marijuana. I still have a hard time legalizing a lot of the harder stuff, drugs that I don't see having recreational uses (medicinal yes).

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
And if for some reason their drug money dries up, they'll get into something else. Rest assured.

The Mafia got big during prohibition in the production and transport of alcohol and did not disappear once prohibition was repealed. I don't doubt the situation would be any different with the various drug cartels, they may move into the background, some may struggle for their existence, but they won't disappear completely. I do wonder what impact there would be if pot, for example, was legalized... what would happen to the various street gangs in the US -- which are also heavily involved in the drug trade.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
but they won't disappear completely.

Still, the end of the prohibition meant a drastic decrease in violence and gang power, did it not?


I also find it extremely interesting that kingpins, drug lords and their minions are getting shot by the Mexican government but yet in the US all you ever hear about the "war on drugs" is that a random drug dealer working the street at gets sent to jail for a night or two and then gets out on bail  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:55 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?

I don't think, I *KNOW* with 100% certainty what happened to the bootleggers within 10 days of the repeal of Prohibition. They were gone. Out of business.

And there is no reason to suppose this will be any different.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
The Mafia got big during prohibition in the production and transport of alcohol and did not disappear once prohibition was repealed.

Really? Haven't heard much about the mafia lately. In fact, they haven't been active for a few decades.

But do you know what they did after the repeal of Prohibition? Drugs. Yup. They trafficked and sold drugs.
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us330
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:02 pm

You have to legalize, plain and simple. During prohibition, the money was being made by all the gangsters. When prohibition ended, they had to find another source.

Saves us the money for troop expenses, and actually creates an additional source of funding from taxing the stuff.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
They won't go quietly. They'll undercut the government. They'll make the government bleed cash at the very least. People will still buy drugs from illicit cartels.

That's the exact opposite of how cartels work. Cartels work because there is a limited/controlled supply. Once every Tom, Dick, and Harry has the ability to grow their own weed, the supply of weed will increase, and the price will drop. The U.S. Government isn't going to go into the weed business, but private companies will. Establish all sorts of regulations, and not only will you be able to buy weed cheaper than it is now, but it will also be safer--you will know what you are buying.
Once prohibition ended, do you think that boozers still went to the mafia to get their booze? No--they just went down to the liquor store.

They might still be able to squeeze a profit from other drugs, like cocaine and heroin, but their main source of revenue and profits is marijuana.
 
NIKV69
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:05 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?

Yes they will, they will still have to be killed or prosecuted but it will be much easier once the substance they are selling is not longer exclusive. Mexico still needs to step up.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I don't think, I *KNOW* with 100% certainty what happened to the bootleggers within 10 days of the repeal of Prohibition. They were gone. Out of business.

And there is no reason to suppose this will be any different.

  
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting US330 (Reply 7):
They might still be able to squeeze a profit from other drugs, like cocaine and heroin, but their main source of revenue and profits is marijuana

That's why I believe they should make all drugs legal, but heavily regulated and taxed. Only legalizing cannabis won't do much because once a person builds tolerance to a drug they tend to move on to stronger stuff, and if that stronger stuff is still illegal, well, then you didn't really solve the situation much.

Whether there will be a drastic increase in pot heads and crack whores is hard to say. I'd like to believe those addicts which are beyond any hope of making recovery and are a danger to society will remain in roughly the same amount, but the amount of "responsible", "occasional" consumers will probably rise a bit. I don't see a problem with the latter however. But if they want to slowly kill themselves with these substances (just like chain smokers and alcoholics do) then so be it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Mexico still needs to step up.

How so? The reason there is an increase in violence is because it's the first time in history the Mexican government declared war on drugs and for the first time ever they are truly, seriously, unleashing hell on the cartels. And obviously the cartels aren't just gonna sit there and allow themselves to be shot. It's an unfortunate consequence. IMO Mexico lately has done more on the war against drugs than anywhere else this side of the world. I also wish the US was more proactive about it instead of just dropping a bag of money wherever there's a problem.


[Edited 2010-03-24 13:31:11]
 
NIKV69
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:58 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
I also wish the US was more proactive about it instead of just dropping a bag of money wherever there's a problem.

What do you suggest? Drop troops in there? That drug war is going to explode soon and your right Mexico has done a lot but the worse is still to come.
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desertjets
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
Whether there will be a drastic increase in pot heads and crack whores is hard to say. I'd like to believe those addicts which are beyond any hope of making recovery and are a danger to society will remain in roughly the same amount, but the amount of "responsible", "occasional" consumers will probably rise a bit. I don't see a problem with the latter however. But if they want to slowly kill themselves with these substances (just like chain smokers and alcoholics do) then so be it.

What concerns me about the potential legalization of marijuana is that the social norms for acceptable use of it aren't really established. I think for the most part any current and potential recreation users know when and where it is appropriate to smoke. But as much of a problem as we have with drinking in this country (drunk driving, binge drinking, alcoholism) doesn't indicate to me that we have the best sense as to when, where, and how much to consume. Plus the fact that there really has not been extensive, quality research done on the effects of marijuana.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
What do you suggest? Drop troops in there? That drug war is going to explode soon and your right Mexico has done a lot but the worse is still to come.

I am being a little abstract here but.... we could seriously look at changing our narcotics laws, legalizing stuff, or heck consuming less of it. Think of it from the perspective of the Mexicans or the Colombians or any other nation that has been in the thick of the war on drugs. They're fighting, their people are dying, they're spending all this money to fight to drug cartels.... and then Americans are still buying the shit. I'd be a little pissed about that over the long haul.
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ual777
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:17 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):

How so? The reason there is an increase in violence is because it's the first time in history the Mexican government declared war on drugs and for the first time ever they are truly, seriously, unleashing hell on the cartels. And obviously the cartels aren't just gonna sit there and allow themselves to be shot. It's an unfortunate consequence. IMO Mexico lately has done more on the war against drugs than anywhere else this side of the world. I also wish the US was more proactive about it instead of just dropping a bag of money wherever there's a problem.

What is more proactive? Send in my Marine Corps? I'm sure they would be happy to oblige, but what else can the US realistically do besides provide funding and training?

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 11):

I am being a little abstract here but.... we could seriously look at changing our narcotics laws, legalizing stuff, or heck consuming less of it. Think of it from the perspective of the Mexicans or the Colombians or any other nation that has been in the thick of the war on drugs. They're fighting, their people are dying, they're spending all this money to fight to drug cartels.... and then Americans are still buying the shit. I'd be a little pissed about that over the long haul.

Actually the US is spending the money. We have spent billions in equipment and training on Colombia and it has for the most part worked.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:50 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
What do you suggest? Drop troops in there?
Quoting ual777 (Reply 12):
I'm sure they would be happy to oblige, but what else can the US realistically do besides provide funding and training?

Oh no no no, hell no. While the conservatives in power probably wouldn't mind too much, the idiotic extreme leftists in Mexico would surely consider it an "invasion" and start yet more drama, as if Mexico doesn't have enough drama already.

What I was getting at is those drug programs such as D.A.R.E. (which my mom helped bring to Mexico by the way) just aren't cutting it in my eyes. Aside from those pot farm raids in California, when was the last time there was a single huge operation to nail established drug traffickers already in the US? I mean I know they happen, but it's just no way in the same scale as in Mexico. Of course bringing it to that scale creates obvious safety problems.

The other huge problem I see is major corruption, on both sides of the border. CBP and the DEA have to be one of the most corrupt dependencies in the US. Why is it that full truckloads of the stuff make it through the border unscathed considering the billions that have been spent in making the borders more secure? Magic? I think not.

Lastly, weapons. Nearly all the weapons used by the cartels come from the US. Almost daily you hear in the Mexican news about some person caught crossing the border, or near the border, with insane amounts of ammo. Guns are illegal in Mexico (with very limited exceptions) to begin with. So where do they turn to get them? The US.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 12):
We have spent billions in equipment and training on Colombia and it has for the most part worked.

I don't see how. Most of the drugs coming through Mexico originated from Colombia. Mexico doesn't produce squat compared to some places in South America. Mexico is just the last fence they have to jump to get the crap into the US.

[Edited 2010-03-24 15:54:27]
 
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shamrock604
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:22 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 13):
Oh no no no, hell no. While the conservatives in power probably wouldn't mind too much, the idiotic extreme leftists in Mexico would surely consider it an "invasion" and start yet more drama, as if Mexico doesn't have enough drama already.

Sending them in without an explicit invitation from the Mexican Government IS an Invasion.

Just because you dont like something in another country doesnt mean you have the right to go violating its sovereignty. I know the Bush administration did a very good line in doing just that, but I thought we had all realised that is, like, eh..... illegal and shit?  

For sure, help and assist, but sending in your troops uninvited to another territory is an invasion and is thus violates international law. This war on terror thing has its limits - so drop that line while the going is good. It cant be used to justify just anything.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:32 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 14):
Sending them in without an explicit invitation from the Mexican Government IS an Invasion.

Obviously.   

But that "invitation" idea had been toyed around a couple of times in the Mexican government and even then there was strong opposition to it.

And I know the service guys would not mind it one bit. What's going on in Mexico is kids play compared to the mess in the middle east. Not to mention the food, girls, and beaches are better than in the middle east Big grin

[Edited 2010-03-24 17:36:36]
 
StarAC17
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:48 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I don't think, I *KNOW* with 100% certainty what happened to the bootleggers within 10 days of the repeal of Prohibition. They were gone. Out of business.

And there is no reason to suppose this will be any different.

   drug cartels are only violent to protect their illegal assets.

Also if you want to cut government spending then legalize drugs (maybe start with pot and see what happens) and end the war on drugs. The DEA basically gets a blank check from the federal government to fight an unwinnable war, mainly because people want to get high and will find a way.

Also this raises taxes for people who will but legalized pot to make the government more money and just might end up cutting everyone else's taxes in the long run.

Also as a Canadian we need the US to do it first because we really want to  . If we did we would be seen like Mexico and it would hinder the existing trade relationship from our side.
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shamrock604
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:18 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
But that "invitation" idea had been toyed around a couple of times in the Mexican government and even then there was strong opposition to it.

And I know the service guys would not mind it one bit. What's going on in Mexico is kids play compared to the mess in the middle east. Not to mention the food, girls, and beaches are better than in the middle east

I cant say I blame the Mexicans for being against it. It's an admission that you consider yourself unable to deal with your problems.

But I completely fail to see how this falls under the category of the so called "war on terror". Thats the danger of that stupid slogan - now people feel at liberty to apply it to almost any situation where bad things are going on. Does it now confer on the US the ability to walk into any country it likes, providing there is some sort of ill shit going on?

I know you were not the one who used that heading, so that isnt directed at you or indeed anyone in particular, but using the old "war on terror" slogan is setting a dangerous precedent.

As for the food, girls, beer and beaches in Mexico.. well yes, Im sure US forces would enjoy the break from Afghanistan and Iraq!  
 
dtw9
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:45 am

Quoting starac17 (Reply 16):
Also this raises taxes for people who will but legalized pot to make the government more money and just might end up cutting everyone else's taxes in the long run.

There will be minimal money made from taxes on pot because most people will grow their own, like the ones that do now,and the ones that will become growers to avoid the taxes. So no benefit to the taxpayer.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
don't think, I *KNOW* with 100% certainty what happened to the bootleggers within 10 days of the repeal of Prohibition. They were gone. Out of business

Bootlegging is still practiced today in the U.S. and around the world,granted not to the extent as during prohibition,but still costing licensed liquor dealers billions each year
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:55 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 17):

I know you were not the one who used that heading, so that isnt directed at you or indeed anyone in particular, but using the old "war on terror" slogan is setting a dangerous precedent

Yeah if anything it should read war on drugs.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 18):

There will be minimal money made from taxes on pot because most people will grow their own, like the ones that do now,and the ones that will become growers to avoid the taxes. So no benefit to the taxpayer

And how come home brewers haven't destroyed the alcoholic beverage industry?   
 
dtw9
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:02 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
And how come home brewers haven't destroyed the alcoholic beverage industry?

Because home brewing is a federal crime with penalties up to 5 years imprisonment and/or $10,000 fines just for setting up an unregistered still.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:15 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 20):

Because home brewing is a federal crime with penalties up to 5 years imprisonment and/or $10,000 fines just for setting up an unregistered still

Depends on the state of course...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrewing#North_America
 
dtw9
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
Depends on the state of course...

Federal law supercedes any state law.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:42 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 22):
Federal law supercedes any state law.

Ah yes, touche. Silly me.

What you mentioned was federal I assume?
 
Kent350787
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:07 am

Although it's still fighting, the war on drugs has been far and away the US's least successful war of the last two centuries, surely. At least its "allies" have been rpogressively moving away from the stricyly prohibitionist stance of the US, although this could be happening more quickly.....

Decriminalise and look to legalise - but tax the hell out of it, just like with alcohol!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting US330 (Reply 7):
That's the exact opposite of how cartels work. Cartels work because there is a limited/controlled supply. Once every Tom, Dick, and Harry has the ability to grow their own weed, the supply of weed will increase, and the price will drop. The U.S. Government isn't going to go into the weed business, but private companies will. Establish all sorts of regulations, and not only will you be able to buy weed cheaper than it is now, but it will also be safer--you will know what you are buying.
Once prohibition ended, do you think that boozers still went to the mafia to get their booze? No--they just went down to the liquor store.

Flawed argument. Drug cartels are not considered "cartels" in the economic sense. We are not talking about OPEC controlling oil prices. Drug cartels are criminal organizations that operate in a dissimilar fashion to the mafia, and they are many orders of magnitude more dangerous. Simply legalizing and taxing it will not make the drug cartels go away. Yes, in theory from what--day 3 of Micro 101--the drug cartels' demands for drugs from the United States "should" plummet--and yes, if the criminal groups were a traditional cartel, ceteris paribus, the cartel would die as pricing power would be effectively lost and making a profit would be all but impossible.

But in real life it's not so simple. Criminal organizations aren't made up of simpletons who are just going to say "aww gee," melt down their guns and go off into the sunset if they lose their source of profit. They're going to fight to keep it, and they're going to diversify their interests. I would argue that the Mexican drug cartels have networks and influence in the United States even more vast than that of the mafia in its heyday. And I'd also argue that the mafia was not immediately marginalized by the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment, but a series of bad business decisions to become the "muscle" for small-time criminals and their failure to adopt emerging illegal markets. I think it's entirely possible the Mexican drug cartels could quite effectively engage in racketeering in the United States with a legal recreational drug market, as well as taking on new endeavors. But I think the idea of "legalize it, and the criminals go away" is naive at best.

Plus, even if recreational drugs were to be legalized, you've created an entirely new, huge market for them in the United States, with a plethora of new health, safety, and general welfare risks. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul in my book.

I'm not convinced legalization is the answer to stopping the border violence, as it seems to open a Pandora's box of its own.
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fxramper
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:15 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Drop troops in there?

There has been a huge push the last 18 months that has sent federal agents 'on loan' to the border and interior Mexico. DEA, ICE, US Marshals, Secret Service, FBI, and CIA to name a few. I got two buddies from college with DEA that have moved to Southwestern Border and another buddy coming out of FLETC in 2 days headed to Brownsville with ICE. I guess the next (maybe not logical) step would be National Guard?

Legalizing drugs doesn't seem like a logical solution short or long term.   
 
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shamrock604
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:16 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 25):
But in real life it's not so simple. Criminal organizations aren't made up of simpletons who are just going to say "aww gee," melt down their guns and go off into the sunset if they lose their source of profit.

The gentleman has a point. Even though I am pro-legalisation, we can look to events around the world that prove this theory is to a point, correct.

Here in Ireland, certain rogue elements with former Paramilitary organisations like the UVF and IRA have become involved in extortion and rackateering since the start of the Northern Ireland peace process. Criminals will continue to take advantage of the networks they have built up in order to profit, be it with drugs or something else.

I still believe legalisation should happen. The so called "war on drugs" is in reality a war on our own citizens. The only ones who seem to suffer and be brought to account are users, while those at the top of the supply chain rarely see justice.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:36 am

If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have this problem. End of story.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
The Mafia got big during prohibition in the production and transport of alcohol and did not disappear once prohibition was repealed.

The Mafia is still around though right?

I think legalizing drugs will do a lot for certain drugs but will not do much for others. I think drugs such as marijuana sold at a steady price could deliver hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Take the people already growing weed and selling illegally and put them to work in a drug lab, legally. That would get rid of small time drug dealers and help to undercut small yet dangerous street gangs. If a man is buying weed, and he knows that he can buy it legally from a coffee shop rather than buy it illegally from a drug dealer selling at a lower price, he'd take his business to the Starbucks and avoid the trouble.

Larger drugs such as cocaine should remain illegal because I don't think it's something that should be messed around with. I say there needs to be a new international commission which deals with all of the central American countries as well south American countries that are supplying the Mexican drug cartels. They need to kill the snake by chopping off it's head and the head of the snake is at the source, in central and southern America. If we could come to an international agreement to spend millions of dollars as a joint effort to stop this thing, I think it could be possible.
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stasisLAX
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:59 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?

They won't go quietly. They'll undercut the government.

The government of Mexico is corrupt to the core, especially on the local level. Every mayor of a Mexican border city has a security detail protecting them, otherwise they'll be killed like alot of police chiefs in border cities have been murdered by the cartels. The Mexican army is protecting some cities because the police force is unwilling to patrol these cities and knows that the cartels will kill them if they do - and perhaps kill their families. The cartels are the major social welfare organizations in a huge portion of northern Mexico, and the local citizenry protects the cartels for this reason.

As much as Americans don't want to face the fact that OUR addiction to street drugs is insatiable and our willingness to sell guns and armaments to the cartels cannot be stopped because there's a LOT of money that we're making off these gun sales, we Americans need to face the fact that Mexico is quickly becoming a failed state, like Somalia. Except, unlike Somalia, it's right on our damn border......
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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shamrock604
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:33 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
we Americans need to face the fact that Mexico is quickly becoming a failed state, like Somalia. Except, unlike Somalia, it's right on our damn border......

By that logic, is the US a failed state because its government is in the pocket of the Oil Industry?
 
ltbewr
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:47 am

People turn to crime when government fails to provide them with economic security. The drug cartels offer the only real hope of income for millions of Mexicans, their government unable to provide enough due to corruption, the shift of manufacturing to China and other locations with cheaper workers and many jobs they had in the USA gone due to our economic crises. This is futher compounded by our (USA's) insatiable demand for dangerous drugs, having the money to buy them and a weak border.

While I believe in a limited decriminalization of pot for humanitarian reasons, we cannot make legal or decriminalize other drugs for sound social reasons. We must find ways to shift our social attitudes toward drugs we consider illegal to discourage their consumption.

As to law/military enforcement, we have very strict Constitutional rules on using Federal troops to enforce civilian laws as well as border controls (although isn't protecting the borders one of the most important functions of a miltiary?) and Mexico won't allow any of our troops to enter thier country out of fear the USA would take over parts of the country.

The Mexican people themselves must make the decsion that they want the government to do it's job, increasing economic security and supporting strong military efforts to crush the criminal syndicates that seem to be controling parts of their country. The American public has to end it's demand for illegal drugs. Until then, nothing will change, and many 1000's will die every year over drugs in Mexico.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:56 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 29):
Larger drugs such as cocaine should remain illegal because I don't think it's something that should be messed around with.

There is no medical basis for this assertion. Have you ever seen anyone going through alcohol withdrawal? Too much of anything will kill you - from hydrogenated cooking oils right down to heroin - the difference is how quickly they damage your system. Recreational use of cocaine and other hard drugs is undesirable but not untenable - thus not all that different from alcohol, and that's the best argument for legalization other than the obvious effect on a very dangerous business that needs to be put in its place.

Granted the cartels won't disappear willy nilly but their business will be severely altered and they will have to supply to governments or find some other way of making money, plain and simple. All this talk of undercutting is nuts - it's a limited supply market to begin with and the cartels have been overcharging for drugs for decades.

On top of all that, Mexico is still dragging their feet. All they have to do is call in air strikes to a hacienda or two - it's not like they don't know where these kingpins live - there's just too much infiltration of the Federales now to get the job done.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
futurepilot16
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:52 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
Too much of anything will kill you

Which is exactly why I don't recommend it to be legalized. People who get addicted have weak minds, unfortunately, a lot of those weak minds are college aged and in college like I am. I drink almost every weekend, but i'm not hooked on it in any way shape or form. With that said, cocaine is way more of a powerful thing than alcohol.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
. Recreational use of cocaine and other hard drugs is undesirable but not untenable

I understand that, but the recreational use is what's making me shy away from it. People talk about anti drug programs like D.A.R.E. I was in hat program in elementary school. I''ve smoke marijuana before, so a D.A.R.E program really will do minimum damage when it comes to stopping kids from drugs. Ultimately, peer pressure and curiosity is what decides who will try drugs and who will not.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:09 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Ultimately, peer pressure and curiosity is what decides who will try drugs and who will not.

To some extent but mental/emotional state and financial circumstance are other driving factors. There's a reason cocaine is popular in certain circles where crack is popular in others.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
With that said, cocaine is way more of a powerful thing than alcohol.

If you were dependent on alcohol you might say differently. Addiction by definition is continuing anything in the face of dire consequence - plenty of alcoholics fit the bill after destroying marriages, finances, job prospects, and the lives of others in accidents. Cocaine has a high degree of dependency, yes, but as with any other drug there are established treatment protocols for weaning people off it that have a high degree of success when the patient is willing and motivated.
It'll be much easier to fund such programs when drugs are legalized and taxed.
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baroque
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:23 pm

Just wish this thread was representative of pollies. It would be over bar setting the tax rates. Poor bloody Mexico. However, it is conspicuous with presumably similar pressures that Canada has managed to avoid the same fate.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
If you were dependent on alcohol you might say differently. Addiction by definition is continuing anything in the face of dire consequence - plenty of alcoholics fit the bill after destroying marriages, finances, job prospects, and the lives of others in accidents. Cocaine has a high degree of dependency, yes, but as with any other drug there are established treatment protocols for weaning people off it that have a high degree of success when the patient is willing and motivated.

Not sure about the US, but certainly here, alcohol causes far more trouble. Both alcohol and nicotine seem to be more addictive than both heroin and cocaine. The synthetics might be more problematical, but again you wonder about actuality and the fictions put about to support the war. Better if folk did not take either heroin or cocaine - EVER - but the same holds for a couple of perfectly legal drugs.
 
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fxramper
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:09 pm

Back on topic please...

I realllllly don't want to see Mexico turn into our president(s) next pet project a la Iraq.  

I think Dubya Sr. screwed the pooch when he got in bed with NAFTA and turned his back on the growing problems with cartels influence because the US economy enjoyed that cheap oil it was getting from Mexico.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 28):
If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have this problem. End of story.

Yes we would.  
 
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Aaron747
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:48 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 37):
Yes we would.

Kind of hard to prove that when history shows otherwise.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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fxramper
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):

Kind of hard to prove that when history shows otherwise.

Welcome to the discussion...  
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 3):
You think drug cartels are just going to go away if you legalize/tax drugs?



When in the history of time did legalizing drug(s) completely eliminate organized crime?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:21 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
Mexico is quickly becoming a failed state, like Somalia.

Not gonna happen. I would've moved out of Mexico a long time ago if that was the case.

Those cheap tabloids and ignorant analysts claiming Mexico is on the brink of revolution and civil war have absolutely no idea as to what is going on down here.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 39):
When in the history of time did legalizing drug(s) completely eliminate organized crime?

As has been mentioned several times before, prohibition. And yes alcohol is a drug.
 
Acheron
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 12):
Actually the US is spending the money. We have spent billions in equipment and training on Colombia and it has for the most part worked.

Not really. Colombia is still by far the largest producer of cocaine in the world and its production levels have barely changed in the last few years.

All the money spent in Colombia is going against the FARC(which is a good thing, of course) but the majority of the drugs aren't produced by them but the cartels, and the colombian goverment hasn't done much against the colombian cartels.
 
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fxramper
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:38 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 40):
s has been mentioned several times before, prohibition.

As mentioned before, the mafia and the crime they commit didn't go away.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 40):
Not gonna happen. I would've moved out of Mexico a long time ago if that was the case.

Arturo, I understand your allegiance, and I wouldn't compare Mexico to Somalia as the above reply did, but the prolonged denial from Mexico and the US is turning Mexico into a failure. Countless stats at www.state.gov and a quick www.google.com search will pull up hundreds of articles supporting the above claim(s).

Mexico arrests 'King of Heroin

Flood of youth on spring break down in Mexico

US & Mexico relations w/ Secretary Clinton

State Dept. Travel Warning for Mexico
 
AM744
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 32):
People turn to crime when government fails to provide them with economic security. The drug cartels offer the only real hope of income for millions of Mexicans, their government unable to provide enough due to corruption, the shift of manufacturing to China and other locations with cheaper workers and many jobs they had in the USA gone due to our economic crises. This is futher compounded by our (USA's) insatiable demand for dangerous drugs, having the money to buy them and a weak border.

That is exactly right. Lack of accountability at every level. All comes down to corruption and the useless legal system that allows or even reinforces it.
 
Boeing1970
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 28):
If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have this problem. End of story.

If drugs were legal, they'd resort to kidnapping, ransom and murder. This is already happening in some areas where they've been unable to effectively maintain their drug trafficing into the US.

Quoting US330 (Reply 7):
When prohibition ended, they had to find another source.

Which they did rather quickly. Didn't stop their crime wave one bit. It was about power. Prohibition just provided an easy cash flow.

[Edited 2010-03-25 11:33:26]
 
PPVRA
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:33 pm



[Edited 2010-03-25 11:34:38]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Boeing1970
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:38 pm

http://thesystemicanalyst.com/__oneclick_uploads/2009/04/homicide-rates.png

Too easy.

[Edited 2010-03-25 11:39:13]
 
cx340
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:25 am

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 32):
The Mexican people themselves must make the decsion that they want the government to do it's job, increasing economic security and supporting strong military efforts to crush the criminal syndicates that seem to be controling parts of their country. The American public has to end it's demand for illegal drugs. Until then, nothing will change, and many 1000's will die every year over drugs in Mexico.

This prretty much sums it up IMHO.

Comparing Mexico to Somalia is ridiculous, at best. Just as the close to 1,000,000 US citizens living in Mexico if they think the same, not to mention the tens of thousands of tourists in Mexico right now. Le't not make overstatements please.

Yes, the problem is huge and there is no easy solution, but that does not mean there will be a massive flee of Mexicans to other countries or a request for an intervention, even if this could be a solution and no matter how frightened anyone gets with this situation, and I think many Mexicans will say the same. Mr. Calderon is at least trying, and most of my fellow countrymen will also agree on this, regardless of political affiliation. No one ever actually tried before, and the consequences are only logical as many posters in this thread have already said; be reminded that Mr. Calderón was very explicit when he started this "war" when he said it was going to cost many lives, but that it could not be postponed any longer (and just to clarify, no, I did not vote for him!). Whether he will succeed or not is yet to be seen - and will be GREATLY dependant on the response on the US side of things, but he and his government will need, without a doubt, all of our support!
 
AR385
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:20 am

I live in Monterrey. I do not know if living here is equal to a war zone, because I have never been in one, but lately things in this city have become extremely dangerous. The authorities are telling us through the radio and tv to not go out at night if it´s not necessary. To stay home. WTF? And they are right. Everyday there are shootouts between the army, the marines and the drug cartels. And this doesn´t ocurr in shadowy neighborhoods, in the dark. This is happening in broad daylight in what used to be normal or "nice" areas. My brother owns a very nice bar. My family and I are afraid and we don´t sleep until my brother gets home. Every night. But it´s his livelihood. Fortunately, nobody has asked him for money to keep operating, but the place just a few blocks down has to pay $10,000 pesos a month to some obscure people to keep out of trouble.

And don´t even think of denouncing them to the police. The police are worst. Worst to the point where they will probably "leak" to the drug traffickers you denounced them. Today, in fact, two Federal Police officers were arrested for the kidnapping of a local businessman. Last week, one local polices officer was arrested for kidnapping/homicide. Over the weekend one person was killed in the custody of police from a local municipality and his accomplice is missing.

When you go out on your car, you don´t know what are you going to face. A shootout? a gang orchestrated blockade? a police blockade? will you get caught in a high speed chase? a kidnapping in progress? Ok, so, you find this stressful and want to go out clubbing to blow off some steam? Better take a bullet proof vest. You never know if the club you are going to go wil get either grenaded or machine-gunned.

A lot of people are staying this Semana Santa (Easter) at home, not going out to the favored holiday spots for the regiomontanos (South Padre, McAllen, Laredo) as this involves driving over the highways which everyone from the American Consulate and the local authorities are saying is dangerous and should be done only in extreme necessity. Just today 6 people were killed in a shootout between drug-traffickers and the army in Cerralvo, at 11:00 AM As an example, today is the anniversary of my father´s passing and since he is buried close to the border we were not able to visit his grave and put flowers, since it involved a 2 hour drive. In a highway, through Cerralvo.

This weekend two bright young people were killed outside the most important private university in the city. My Alma-Mater, too. They were studying and felt like a snack so they went out and walked straight into a major shootout involving the army and drug traffickers. It is not clear how they died but that´s not the point. What kind of place has Monterrey turned into that you are studying in the library of your university, you go out out to get something to eat and 5 mins later you are lying dead in the street, not 200 yards from the comfort of your books?

Living here everyday is stressful and downright scary. I want Monterrey to be what it was not 4 months ago. I want to be able to go to my brother´s bar without having to wear a bullet-proof vest. I want my mother to be able to go out and not be afraid of a stray bullet hitting her. I want to be able to go visit my father´s grave without having the fear of joining him.

When I hear people saying that this situation is for the long run, that things will get worst before they get better, when I watch the sorry excuse we have for a president say on tv that we need to follow the advice of the authorities and blah,blah, blah, I really feel sick.

Unless something mayor is done, like removing the entire police force in the city and throwing them in jail, preferably in a far away island, bring in more soldiers and marines, maybe even American this country will descend into civil war, and I don´t believe I am exaggerating.



Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
I also find it extremely interesting that kingpins, drug lords and their minions are getting shot by the Mexican government

Yes. The problem is that they are also shooting innocent people.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
That's why I believe they should make all drugs legal, but heavily regulated and taxed. Only legalizing cannabis won't do much because once a person builds tolerance to a drug they tend to move on to stronger stuff, and if that stronger stuff is still illegal, well, then you didn't really solve the situation much.

This is very true.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
How so? The reason there is an increase in violence is because it's the first time in history the Mexican government declared war on drugs and for the first time ever they are truly, seriously, unleashing hell on the cartels. And obviously the cartels aren't just gonna sit there and allow themselves to be shot. It's an unfortunate consequence. IMO Mexico lately has done more on the war against drugs than anywhere else this side of the world. I also wish the US was more proactive about it instead of just dropping a bag of money wherever there's a problem.

I agree entirely.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 11):
I am being a little abstract here but.... we could seriously look at changing our narcotics laws, legalizing stuff, or heck consuming less of it. Think of it from the perspective of the Mexicans or the Colombians or any other nation that has been in the thick of the war on drugs. They're fighting, their people are dying, they're spending all this money to fight to drug cartels.... and then Americans are still buying the shit. I'd be a little pissed about that over the long haul.

Unless Americans stop consuming drugs in the massive scale they do, things will remain the same and not change at all. If the violence here doesn´t abate, then what will end up happening if the Americans don´t curb their consumption is that the Mexican Government will negotiate with the druglords for a truce. After all, why do we have to be the ones dealing with all the bloodshed?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 13):
The other huge problem I see is major corruption, on both sides of the border. CBP and the DEA have to be one of the most corrupt dependencies in the US. Why is it that full truckloads of the stuff make it through the border unscathed considering the billions that have been spent in making the borders more secure? Magic? I think not.

You took the above words out of my mouth.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 13):
I don't see how. Most of the drugs coming through Mexico originated from Colombia. Mexico doesn't produce squat compared to some places in South America. Mexico is just the last fence they have to jump to get the crap into the US.

Not true. Unfortunately Mexico is a major Heroine, Cannabis, and meth producer. Cocaine is also produced here in a moderate scale. Although if I recall correctly, Cannabis is Ohio´s number one cash crop. Or used to be.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30):
we Americans need to face the fact that Mexico is quickly becoming a failed state, like Somalia. Except, unlike Somalia, it's right on our damn border......

Not true.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
On top of all that, Mexico is still dragging their feet. All they have to do is call in air strikes to a hacienda or two - it's not like they don't know where these kingpins live - there's just too much infiltration of the Federales now to get the job done.

You´ve obviously been watching too much TV. In the real world, this is simply not possible. Things do not work like they do in the comics. Mexico is still dragging their feet? I suggest you reread my post and google some recent news articles. Unless you are implying the army nukes some areas in Mexico where drugs are produced I don´t see how we are dragging our feet.

[Edited 2010-03-25 20:04:17]

[Edited 2010-03-25 20:10:01]
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: War On Terror - Mexico's Drug Cartels

Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:01 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 48):
I live in Monterrey

Time to come out to HMO. It's always been nice and quiet out here.  

Well, who knows how long that lasts. Our brand new governor is a major tool bag and he's clearly only in it for the money, as is everybody below him.   

Quoting AR385 (Reply 48):
Not true.

I was making a blanket statement but my point was that Mexico's primary role is still more along the lines of being a "distribution center" for drugs rather than being a major producer or consumer.

[Edited 2010-03-25 20:05:09]

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