SA7700
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Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:16 am

Kindly continue your discussion here in part 3.

If you would like to access part 2, follow this link: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)


Enjoy the website!

SA7700
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:03 pm

From the previous thread:

San747:
Quoting DXing (Reply 262):
The company also gives me a huge discount on flying for which no taxes are paid. It's called a benefit, it's something I earn. You evidently don't understand the concept, if this is the only argument you have left then I think we are done here.

If you had that company discount from day 1 at your job, it wasn't earned. It's a benefit, just like my flight benefits at OO, but neither you nor or I earned that benefit. We were awarded and given access to it.



You earn it from the 1st day of your work. Just like you earn paid sick time from day one. Just like you earn paid vacation days from day 1. All benefits.

Also, for those claiming that the polls show a huge turn around in public opinion, guess again. Two of the polls taken since the legislation was signed into law cancell each other out. The other two show the public still disagrees that the law is a good thing.


http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 1):
All benefits.

And some come with a free ride from taxes.

Nice of you to bring up the tax free trip benefits. I'll let my Senator (Tom Coburn) know about that as he's always looking to find ways to pay for new programs.   
 
Rara
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 1):

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php



Opportunity missed: with a bit more control over his approval ratings, the President could have plotted a full set of cock and balls.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:59 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Nice of you to bring up the tax free trip benefits.

I don't get the seat unless it's going to be empty. In other words I can't displace revenue. How much value does an empty seat bring to the airline? You simply do not get it.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:00 pm

ATT takes a Billion Dollar write-down because of the health care reform.

But should we feel sorry for them? Nope.

Turns out that all this is about is the ending of a tax deduction that wasn't and expense. A sweetheart deal from the 2003 Prescription drug program that the Republicans were handing out to business.

So how did it work?

Say a company paid $100 Million for retirees prescription benefits.

They would get a $28 Million government subsidy. Dash from the taxpayers.

But they would write off the entire $100 Million as a tax deduction. Didn't matter that they only had a $72 Million expense.

Smoke & mirrors. But the new law changes that - makes the taxpayer cash a reduction of their costs - which it always has been. Big companies, like ATT, are trying to make it appear that they are being treated badly.

And we can see why Corporate America is so in love with the Republicans. They hand out some very sweet cand.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:49 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
A sweetheart deal from the 2003 Prescription drug program that the Republicans were handing out to business.

And that passed out of the Senate to the conference with a vote of 76-21. Since there were only 51 Republicans that means that 25 democrats went along with it. In the House all the democrats voted against it. Party of NO anyone? After conference, you know that's where the two different bills differences are ironed out, some thing the democrats can't seem to figure out, the vote in the Senate was 55-44 which means that 3 democrats actually voted for it. In the democrats world that's called bipartisanship. In the House again all the democrats voted against the bill. Party of NO anyone? Original 10 year cost 400 billion. Revised 2009 ten year cost 549 billion. Of course the new health care law projected costs will be dead on and have no overrun whatsoever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicar...Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:29 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
ATT takes a Billion Dollar write-down because of the health care reform.


Oh, never mind the fact that it is business that pays for our entire country, your and my livelyhood, the roads, utilities, healthcare, and everything. Your hatred of business is irrational.

How do you feel about this?

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/assets_c/2010/03/ATTpageone.php

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/assets_c/2010/03/ATTPagetwo.php

The Democrats know that if, over the next few months a lot more companies start coming forward with disclosures of how much this boondoggle is going to cost, they are going to be in a lot of trouble. The answer? Intimidate them into silence by putting all the companies that have already made announcements to undergo interrogation in front of Congress, and bring their analyses of the fiscal impact, and any documents including emails and messages reviewed by their senior officials that support their claim of increased operating costs.

The purpose is clear. I'll bet you pounds to donuts that from now on, any company desiring to disclose the negative impact of Democrat-passed laws (as required by SEC regulations) will bury them in the notes to financial statements, noticed only by wall street analysts.

Change we can believe in, right?

[Edited 2010-03-28 15:30:35]
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:21 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Original 10 year cost 400 billion. Revised 2009 ten year cost 549 billion.

And how did the Bush/Cheney Gang FINANCE this?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Your hatred of business is irrational.

You miss the mark as far as DXing does.

I don't hate business. I even owned one before being hit with cancer.

What I don't believe in is anyone playing the big write-offs as the "mean old government hurting them".

All it takes is an Introduction To Accounting 101 to see what went on. They were taking a deduction when they didn't have one.

Maybe poor law writing by the Republican lawyers, maybe just very sharp tax lawyers for the companies finding the loophole.

But it's a loop hole you can drive a freight train through and Obama & the Democrats have closed it.

Oh, let's not forget that when they take the write-off they cut the tax they will be paying. Each $100 million will end up saving about $35 million in cash outflow at the federal level, plus what ever state level taxes are saved. Not too shabby.

Maybe you can explain why Bush & the Republicans didn't close it when they were in power.  
 
mt99
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:24 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
How do you feel about this?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
undergo interrogation in front of Congress, and bring their analyses of the fiscal impact, and any documents including emails and messages reviewed by their senior officials that support their claim of increased operating costs.

I feel great about it. You and i already agreed that the "impact" will be minimal. Are you afraid that this minimal impact will become public knowledge and in the process have more people support of the plan?
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AverageUser
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):

Oh, never mind the fact that it is business that pays for our entire country, your and my livelyhood, the roads, utilities, healthcare, and everything.

Would we need some people who work for the businesses, and customers who will buy those products and services as well? A car is not the engine alone but everything that keeps the vehicle on the road.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
And how did the Bush/Cheney Gang FINANCE this?

How have the democrats financed the health care law? When you take away the double count in supposed medicare cuts, the 6 for 10, and add in the doc fix as well as the cost of hiring a whole bunch of IRS auditors (neither were included in the legislation so were not scored by the CBO) that supposed bargain at 945 billion shoots up well past 1 trillion. No wonder President Obama wanted to buy GM, he must harbor a secret desire to be a used car salesman.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:03 pm

Medicare "cuts" will be the elimination of the unnecessary 15% surcharge private companies get for showing that they can do a better job than the government. Duh. Why do they need that unnecessary 15% when it can be better applied to others?

The IRS & Justice Departments are going to be going after Medicare/Medicaid fraud. That's not a problem for me as these good folks will be able to earn their keep.  

As for GM, let's hold onto those shares until we can get a nice, tidy profit off of them. Sorta like the Citi deal.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Medicare "cuts" will be the elimination of the unnecessary 15% surcharge private companies get for showing that they can do a better job than the government. Duh. Why do they need that unnecessary 15% when it can be better applied to others?

The cuts go much deeper than that. Plus the cuts are double counted.

Or as the CBO says:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...e-counting-medicare-savings/32538/

The key point is that the savings to the HI trust fund under the PPACA would be received by the government only once, so they cannot be set aside to pay for future Medicare spending and, at the same time, pay for current spending on other parts of the legislation or on other programs. Trust fund accounting shows the magnitude of the savings within the trust fund, and those savings indeed improve the solvency of that fund; however, that accounting ignores the burden that would be faced by the rest of the government later in redeeming the bonds held by the trust fund. Unified budget accounting shows that the majority of the HI trust fund savings would be used to pay for other spending under the PPACA and would not enhance the ability of the government to redeem the bonds credited to the trust fund to pay for future Medicare benefits. To describe the full amount of HI trust fund savings as both improving the government's ability to pay future Medicare benefits and financing new spending outside of Medicare would essentially double-count a large share of those savings and thus overstate the improvement in the government's fiscal position.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
The IRS & Justice Departments are going to be going after Medicare/Medicaid fraud. That's not a problem for me as these good folks will be able to earn their keep

Good luck with that. The IRS has trouble keeping track of who is supposed to get what and how much right now.

http://healthfreedomblog.com/?p=1065

Howard Gleckman, of the Urban Institute, sees the IRS’s proposed new role as a part of a historical pattern. “We are always asking the IRS to do all kinds of social engineering,” he said, such as tax credits for new homeowners and renewable energy firms.

In one of the biggest examples of using the tax code to achieve a social goal, Congress shifted much of its effort to help the poor in the 1990s from direct spending to the Earned Income Tax Credit, an IRS-run program that pays rebates to low-income working people to offset taxes.

In 2005, more than 22 million people claimed the credit, resulting in more than $40 billion in payments, a Treasury Department inspector general found last year. The audit also found $11.4 billion in improper payments in 2005 — about 28 cents of every dollar paid out.


Yep, I bet they'll be all over that medicare fraud.

Oh yeah, remember the Presidents line about no new middle class tax, and he defined middle class as 150,000 to 200,000 dollars, depending on which week you heard him speaking?

From the same link:

Under the health care legislation, the IRS will determine who qualifies for the insurance subsidies. Those subsidies would apply to people with incomes up to four times the federal poverty level, which is $43,320 for an individual and $88,200 for a family of four. The government would pay insurance companies to help individuals buy policies on the new exchanges. The exchanges, a central feature in both bills, are a sort of marketplace where small businesses and individuals who don’t get employer-sponsored coverage could shop for health plans.

So if the government decides that a "minimum qualified plan" ends up costing more than what you are paying now, that's a defacto tax increase. What a Country!!!!


The extra IRS agents are there to help make sure that everyone is purchasing a qualified health care plan. On top of that, if the fraud is going on, why was than not a focus of the Administration and the Justice department during the first year in office so at this point they could show some results to prove their point?

The new IRS agents will also, one would think, be put to work making sure that tanning salons are correctly charging the surcharge (which is actually a discriminatory tax since how many latinos and blacks use tanning salons?) that the law calls for as well as making sure that granny and grandpa are being charged the correct amount of tax for their medical devices.

And that doesn't begin to address the cost of the Doc Fix which was not included in the actual health care law since it would have put the bill over a trillion in cost and in the red. Nor does it explain how the second ten years will be paid for since the 6 in 10 gimmick only works in the first ten year period. There are so many financial flaws in this law just awaiting their moment to shine. I guess that's what you get when people vote on a bill they haven't read and don't understand, and submit a less than honest bill to be scored. But to the liberals a bad law is better than no law at all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
As for GM, let's hold onto those shares until we can get a nice, tidy profit off of them. Sorta like the Citi deal.

As I said, we will all be dead and gone of old age by the time that happens.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 13):
Good luck with that. The IRS has trouble keeping track of who is supposed to get what and how much right now.

They can always ask the Aussies how to do it. As I mentioned before, a friend (ex-cop) went to work for the Fraud Group there and they already had their first Doc nailed to the wall. Programmers, statisticians and cops finding and nailing the cheats.

When crooks commit fraud via a computer they can be found via a computer.

The Doc FIx is one of those games left over from the Bush/Cheney years. It needs its own review, which should include motivations for med students to go into GP/Family Practice. It will be interesting to see how the conservatives approach replacing that current situation with a solid, intelligent law that addresses problems in those areas. Will the Republicans work with the Democrats, or fight them on everything? Contributions from Doctors may hand in the balance.  
 
AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:13 pm

Dont know if this is related ..but my Girl friend who is a heart specialist at a hostpital here in Tucson was notified that they are cutting the work force by 20% over the next 18 months. A 15% cut will be made fiscal 2010 with a 20% by 2011. Seems weird to me . The employees are blaming the cuts in Medicare / Medicaid reimbursment rates , basicaly they cant not make a profit.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 9):
You and i already agreed that the "impact" will be minimal. Are you afraid that this minimal impact will become public knowledge and in the process have more people support of the plan?

The plan is designed to be low impact .... it is simply going to degrade insurance companies and private providers profitablity over time. The slow change will eventualy cripple them until a full government take over will be required. The President said exaclty that in several interviews. They tried for full universal healthcare in the initial bill ...it served to give them a fall back position that seemed easier to pass . What they got was not what they wanted immediatly ...but they can wait ... they know the insurance companies can not operate under these rules and will have to raise thier rates. Its a very sinister play ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:21 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
The Doc FIx is one of those games left over from the Bush/Cheney years.

      The last major change to medicare was in 1995. Not an additional new program but a change to the basic financial structuring. The supplemental budget to cover the shortfall in the medicare annual budget to cover doctors fees has been a recurring annual event since then.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It will be interesting to see how the conservatives approach replacing that current situation with a solid, intelligent law that addresses problems in those areas.

You mean like the new health care law with its major funding flaws? Hopefully if the liberals try to ram through yet another such flawed piece of legislation the GOP will be strong enough to once again say they want no part of a bad law.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:03 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
The last major change to medicare was in 1995.

After the Republican Landslide? The Contract With America?

So the Republicans got what they wanted - lots of power from that '94 mind term election on through the 06 mid term.

Why wasn't that enough time to fix that problem? Bush/Cheney had a lot of opportunities. Guess they were so focused on cutting taxes and invading Iraq that they couldn't be bothered.
 
mt99
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 15):
The plan is designed to be low impact .... it is simply going to degrade insurance companies and private providers profitablity over time

I think we are talking about two different things. What Dreadnought and agree on have nothing to do with insurance companies. Its the fact that Caterpillar will see a $100M charge which will "cripple and will destroy caterpillar and all that is holy". He and i agreed that that is a completely baseless claim designed for Fox News headlines.
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AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 18):
He and i agreed that that is a completely baseless claim designed for Fox News headlines.

I guess we will see about that ... Waxman wants the CEO's front and center to hear they're case. I hope that the Caterpiller and John Deer CEO's lay it out clear.

You can be as smart as me and figure out that the insurance companies are going to have to raise rates... forced to cover pre existing conditions ?? It sounds nice but it is bad buisness ... it defies all logic when it comes to the idea of insurance. I agree with parts of the bill that effect dropping patients when they get ill , but forceing companies to insure someone who is irresponsible is crazy .
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mt99
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:24 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
I guess we will see about that ... Waxman wants the CEO's front and center to hear they're case. I hope that the Caterpiller and John Deer CEO's lay it out clear.

I Hope they do too.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
but forceing companies to insure someone who is irresponsible is crazy .

So in fact - you are saying that Insurance companies currently run "death panels"?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
You can be as smart as me and figure out that the insurance companies are going to have to raise rates

In theory do agree with you, BUT the huge pool of people that will have to be insure will help leverage that risk. I agree that this is a theory too, but looking at the raw data and analyzing it is beyond my pay scale for this website.

Ill defer to people who do make their living analyzing data - the good people at Wall Street - They cant steer us wrong can they? Never - don't be ridiculous.

United Healthcare Stock is up for the year. Closed up today again
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=UNH

WellPoint stock s also up for the year.Closed up today again
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=wlp

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1950...rm-winners-and-losers?source=yahoo

I don't question the market (nor should you)- after all we are not communists.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):

You can be as smart as me

How can anyone be as smart as you?  
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:54 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
So the Republicans got what they wanted - lots of power from that '94 mind term election on through the 06 mid term.

Really, you mean despite not having control of the Senate from '00 to '02? You mean despite not having a 60 seat majority in the Senate at any time during those years? Or perhaps you mean not having a veto proof majority in both houses from '94 to '06? Lot's of power means you can actually control legislation from start to finish. Something the democrats could not do this entire past year. Of course when you're Reid you blame the tools and not the carpenter.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/6...e-was-led-astray-by-the-ama?page=3

Prior to the 47-53 procedural vote, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) blamed the American Medical Association (AMA) for giving him bad information on the number of Republicans expected to support the measure.

What a rube. Remind me again how many seats the democrats held in the Senate last October?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Guess they were so focused on cutting taxes and invading Iraq that they couldn't be bothered.

In 1995 President Clinton was in office. No Iraq, no cutting of taxes. You really do have a memory problem. On top of that, as far as the democrats were concerned, no universal care, no bill.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 18):
Its the fact that Caterpillar will see a $100M charge which will "cripple and will destroy caterpillar and all that is holy"

Exactly who said that and where?
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AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:25 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
So in fact - you are saying that Insurance companies currently run "death panels"?

No ... I am saying that if you dont buy insurance before you get sick then they should not have to accept you. Its pretty simple . We just cant have people wait until they have cancer then decide to go buy insurance ... right ?

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
BUT the huge pool of people that will have to be insure will help leverage that risk

Valid point ..and quite possibly the reason that the stocks are are going up. I have been watching them too ... just sold and made 10K on a healthcare sector stock last week (ISRG). But I am sceptical of the long term profitability with a government that is so vehemently outspoken about them.

That said I still vote with my dollars ...

UHC looks like a decent buy $32 a share right now .. but I am not sue about it.

I am looking at Universal American Corp right now .. .. they specialize in Medicair supplement packages ... $15.00 a share ? .

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
How can anyone be as smart as you?

Easy ... breathe, eat and play call of duty and your qualified .   
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mt99
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
We just cant have people wait until they have cancer then decide to go buy insurance ... right ?

So you agree with the mandate to buy insurance?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Easy ... breathe, eat and play call of duty and your qualified

Hehehe Well Played!  
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AGM100
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:08 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 23):
So you agree with the mandate to buy insurance?

No I dont ... I dont like the idea that the G forces me to buy something. Its not like car insurance .... you are forced to buy health insurance or you pay higher taxes thats just going too far. I know its complicated but I am just a small government low restriction guy from another age and time.
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:43 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 23):
So you agree with the mandate to buy insurance?

How does one necessarily have to follow, or mean he is for the other?
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:45 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Waxman wants the CEO's front and center to hear they're case. I hope that the Caterpiller and John Deer CEO's lay it out clear.

Now that will be interesting. Especially when it's pointed out that they received cash for 28% of the expense, but claimed 100% on their tax returns. That is a hard one to explain in public.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
You can be as smart as me and figure out that the insurance companies are going to have to raise rates... forced to cover pre existing conditions ??

Which is a great reason to have a public option for those that the insurance companies don't want. Let the "reject" and their family go onto a modified form of Medicare and pay a percentage of their income. I'll even go for a "rejection letter" from an insurance company in order to qualify. But then put the whole family in.

Quoting DXing (Reply 21):
Lot's of power means you can actually control legislation from start to finish.

The Republicans didn't lack power to get their pet projects through.

Quoting DXing (Reply 21):
Something the democrats could not do this entire past year.

They did spend too long letting Republicans phart around - should have driven health care reform as hard as the Republicans drove tax cuts. Things are, however, changing this year. Heading for some real reform in the finance sector next. Will the Republicans stand up for the country, or the banks?

Quoting DXing (Reply 21):
On top of that, as far as the democrats were concerned, no universal care, no bill.

Oooops. You forgot the prescription Part D to Medicare. Written by the insurance companies, passed by the Republicans.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
The Republicans didn't lack power to get their pet projects through.

The gop did not have veto proof majorities in the House or the Senate.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Will the Republicans stand up for the country, or the banks?

If it means giving Rep, Barney Frank a chance to do more damage than he has already done the I say oppose it. Fascism is not something we need in this country. Not Nazi fascism but the type where private industy own it but the government dictates how they will run every little item.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Oooops. You forgot the prescription Part D to Medicare.

Didn't forget it at all. It did not significantly change health care for the majority in this country.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:34 am

Here's a good one... What was the first time in US history that people were mandated to purchase health insurance (from the government rather than a private company, so admittedly a bit different from the current situation)?

The current bill? Nope, especially since Medicare is essentially insurance that you're mandated to purchase.

Medicare? Nope, still off by over a hundred years.

Would you believe...1798? Under John Adams, a law was passed authorizing government agents to collect a 20 cent tax on every sailor on US-flagged vessels arriving in the US from foreign ports. This tax was used to fund medical care for sick and disabled seamen.

http://history.nih.gov/research/downloads/1StatL605.pdf
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:36 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 28):
Here's a good one...

Even better was the fact that the politicians of the day were already in the habit of spending any extra money collected on the government rather than returning it to the people they had confiscated it from. See section 4:

SEC. 4. And be it f2rrthrr enacted, That if any surplus shall remain
pcnded7and do- of the monies to be collected by virtue of this act, after defraying the nations to be
invested in expense of such temporary relief and support, that the same, together ,
stock. with such private donations as may be made for that purpose (which the
President is hereby authorized to receive) shall be invested in the stock
of the United States, under the direction of the President; and when,
in his opinion, a suficient fund shall be accumulated, he is hereby
authorized to purchase or receive cessions or donations of ground or
provision for buildings, in the name of the United States, and to cause buildings,
when necessary, to be erected as hospitals for the accommodation of hospitals. sick and disabled seamen.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 29):
Even better was the fact that the politicians of the day were already in the habit of spending any extra money collected on the government rather than returning it to the people they had confiscated it from.

You didn't read that passage too carefully, did you?

Quote:
he is hereby authorized to purchase or receive cessions or donations of ground or provision for buildings, in the name of the United States, and to cause buildings, when necessary, to be erected as hospitals for the accommodation of sick and disabled seamen.

Seems to me that building hospitals is part of health care, which is what the tax was for in the first place.
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 30):
Seems to me that building hospitals is part of health care, which is what the tax was for in the first place.

Nope, I saw it. But before that it specifically states:

Quoting DXing (Reply 29):
SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That if any surplus shall remain
- of the monies to be collected by virtue of this act, after defraying the nations to be
invested in expense of such temporary relief and support, that the same, together ,
stock. with such private donations as may be made for that purpose (which the
President is hereby authorized to receive) shall be invested in the stock
of the United States,

So if there is a surplus, rather than give it back they will hold on to it as long as they see fit and spend it. Government should not be in the business of hoarding surplus. If the tax taken is greater than needed, the rest should be returned to the people it was siezed from.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:25 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
The gop did not have veto proof majorities in the House or the Senate.

If the party was as impotent as you make them out to be it's amazing that they were able to achieve all they did - in terms of their wish list.

Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
If it means giving Rep, Barney Frank a chance to do more damage than he has already done the I say oppose it.

It's amazing how you'll prefer to have the finance sector free to play the same games that caused to many problems rather than have a Democrat, especially a gay Democrat, work to get some control over the area.

Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
Didn't forget it at all. It did not significantly change health care for the majority in this country.

How do you know? What proof to show that families, including children and grandchildren didn't feel the impact when the law was passed. Not only in relation to those on Pard D, but also in relation to re-importing (or direct importing) of medications in order to cut costs. Could well be that over 50% of the population was directly or indirectly impacted by the law.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:20 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
It's amazing how you'll prefer to have the finance sector free to play the same games that caused to many problems rather than have a Democrat, especially a gay Democrat, work to get some control over the area.

Do we really, really have to dig up the videos again which showed Barney Frank vigorously arguing against any attempts at increasing monitoring and regulation of the mortgage industry, in the face of repeated warnings in Congressional hearings that the situation was becoming dangerous in the early and mid 2000's, including from Pres. Bush?  
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:23 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
If the party was as impotent as you make them out to be it's amazing that they were able to achieve all they did - in terms of their wish list.

Is social security privatized? Are the tax cuts permanent?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
It's amazing how you'll prefer to have the finance sector free to play the same games that caused to many problems rather than have a Democrat, especially a gay Democrat, work to get some control over the area.

Considering how much Rep. Frank had to do with the failure of Fannie and Freddie, not to mention Senator Schumer helping the Indy bank to go under by his reckless comments, no I don't trust any democrat to run the financial system.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
How do you know?

Because it dealt with a finite amount of individuals, not the population as a whole. It did not require the start up of a huge new bureuacracy or the enactment of a 2000 page law.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Could

Your standard precursor.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Is social security privatized?

Fortunately not - some Americans would have lost a huge amount when the Dow went from 14000+ to the 6000 range.

So basically the elderly in this country has been protected during a massively unstable time in the financial sector.

It is really scary thinking about the damage that the Republicans could have done

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
I don't trust any democrat to run the financial system.

Your preference for the Republican Administration that brought us the Great Recession has long been obvious.

But we'll see if the Republicans keep their head in the sand, or work with the Democrats on this one.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Because it dealt with a finite amount of individuals, not the population as a whole. It did not require the start up of a huge new bureuacracy or the enactment of a 2000 page law.

And that finite number of individuals interacts with their families, so the limited impact you think about actually spreads directly and indirectly.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:41 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Fortunately not - some Americans would have lost a huge amount when the Dow went from 14000+ to the 6000 range.

So basically the elderly in this country has been protected during a massively unstable time in the financial sector.

For someone your age I am surprised that you seem to have no idea what such funds would be invested in. They would be bond-heavy, such as these funds here.

http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/f.aspx?Country=USA&Symbol=BMBIX#
http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/f.aspx?Country=USA&Symbol=CHKYX
http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/f.aspx?Country=USA&Symbol=NITYX

All of which have done quite nicely.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):

Your preference for the Republican Administration that brought us the Great Recession has long been obvious.

Only to idiots. I refer you again to the videos that have been posted here ad-nauseum, showing all the Republicans who warned of impending doom in the mortgage markets for the past decade, and all the democrats that insisted that nothing was wrong, some of whom even accused the other side of racism for daring to try to put the brakes on the mortgage industry.
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Fortunately not - some Americans would have lost a huge amount when the Dow went from 14000+ to the 6000 range.

As opposed to depending on a trust fund that is stuffed with IOU's and doesn't really exist?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Your preference for the Republican Administration that brought us the Great Recession has long been obvious.

Recessions come and go as this one will. The difference is what a President does to mitigate the damage. President Bush, although I didn't agree with it, institued the TARP legislation to bail out the banks. President Obama enacted the Stimulus bill, which was supposed to keep unemployment below 8%. As you have noted the government is going to make a nice profits from the sale of the Citi stock. Meanwhile unemployment remains at or near 10% nation wide and well above that in limited areas.

As Dreadnought and I have both said, we can dig out the videos of Rep. Frank and other democrats excoriating President Bush and the GOP on the floor of the Senate and in the well of the House for daring to try and impose restrictions on mortgage lending and buying by the the banks as well as Freddie and Fannie. Rep. Frank had no problems whining tha the President was all for home ownership unless some one was poor. The comment was so ridiculous as to be laughable. If you're poor, how can you afford to buy a house much less make payments? So yes, I would be greatly concerned if Rep. Frank was involved in rewriting financial law regarding the banks.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
And that finite number of individuals interacts with their families, so the limited impact you think about actually spreads directly and indirectly

No where near the level that the new health care law does in that there was not any giant new bureaucracy as well as another agency (IRS) spooling up by 16.000 employees.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
For someone your age I am surprised that you seem to have no idea what such funds would be invested in.

Careful, remember he took accounting 101.
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Ken777
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:25 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
As opposed to depending on a trust fund that is stuffed with IOU's and doesn't really exist?

I'll take what backs my monthly Social Security check each months over a private company that is only half way to rebuilding after the Bush Years.

And, sure, the conservatives will do everything they can to end SS & Medicare. And at some point that obsession will brand them sufficiently that they will be out of power for years.
 
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
And, sure, the conservatives will do everything they can to end SS & Medicare

You just have never understood the difference between mending and ending. Someone is going to have to mend those programs or of their own fiscal weight they will end themselves and bring the country down financially with them. Perhaps when the democrats want to quit crying about how the GOP is out to starve grandma and see everyone "die early" we'll be able to get somewhere. Meanwhile our countries bond rating heads further and further towards jeporady with every single passing day. I'm only a few years away from being eligible for both SS and Medicare and I seriously don't believe that either will be there when I do become eligible. Fortunately I have built my retirement around not needing either. If I were 30 years younger I woudn't even acknowledge the programs exist when I thought of my retirement.

The new health care law will only exacerbate this countries financial problems and hasten the day that medicare becomes insoluble.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:42 am

The basic question as a society we have to ask is simply this, is it important to our society that everyone (or almost everyone) have quality health care?

If your answer is no, then there is no need for government intervention. The free market will naturally determine who can afford health care and who cannot. Given the cost of modern health care most of the population will not be able to afford care.

If your answer is yes, then the government will have to intervene as the free market has no way to serve the poor/elderly profitably.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
you are forced to buy health insurance or you pay higher taxes thats just going too far.

So you'd rather be forced to pay higher premiums to cover all those without insurance as you do now?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
I agree with parts of the bill that effect dropping patients when they get ill , but forceing companies to insure someone who is irresponsible is crazy .

I agree, but then using your logic shouldn't insurance companies be able to refuse to cover anyone who is overweight? Most overweight people are being irresponsible with their health. Should we automatically deny 50% of the U.S. population? Probably should deny anyone who smokes cigarettes too? Probably should deny anyone with speeding tickets/reckless driving charges too?
 
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Opposition continues at better than 50% even after almost two full weeks of barnstorming around the country trying to sell a plan that is already law.

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
If your answer is no, then there is no need for government intervention.

Incorrect. There is a need for some regulation by government as there always has been,

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
Given the cost of modern health care most of the population will not be able to afford care.

Then following free market rules the prices will fall accordingly. BTW, it's not the insurance companies that set the "health care" costs, that's doctors, hospitals, drug and medical equipment/supply companies.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
If your answer is yes, then the government will have to intervene as the free market has no way to serve the poor/elderly profitably.

With government intervention into the insurance market with Medicare they have already negatively affected the health care costs in this country. Further intervention will only make the problem worse.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
I agree, but then using your logic shouldn't insurance companies be able to refuse to cover anyone who is overweight?

Using your logic the government should be able to dictate what you can eat.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
Probably should deny anyone who smokes cigarettes too?

People who smoke already pay a higher rate in many cases.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
Probably should deny anyone with speeding tickets/reckless driving charges too?

Driving is an option. You don't have a "right" to hold a drivers license.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:27 pm

We passed a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn’t read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president that also hasn’t read it, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that’s broke.

What could possibly go wrong?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
If your answer is yes, then the government will have to intervene as the free market has no way to serve the poor/elderly profitably

Please explain to me how allowing people to not be insured in return for a nominal 'penalty', and then sign up for insurance coverage on their way to the hospital for a major operation, is going to be beneficial for anyone?
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:49 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 41):
Then following free market rules the prices will fall accordingly.

No, healthcare will simply become a luxury good that only the well-off can afford.

Quoting DXing (Reply 41):
With government intervention into the insurance market with Medicare they have already negatively affected the health care costs in this country.

Sure they've affected the price, but they've also made it so that the elderly actually HAVE health insurance. Kill Medicare and much of your elderly population would have no coverage.

Quoting DXing (Reply 41):
it's not the insurance companies that set the "health care" costs, that's doctors, hospitals, drug and medical equipment/supply companies.

I never said that insurance companies "set health care" costs. However, they can influence costs...both positively and negatively.

Quoting DXing (Reply 41):
Opposition continues at better than 50% even after almost two full weeks of barnstorming around the country trying to sell a plan that is already law.

It's no surprise, the public has been so thoroughly scared to death that there will always be significant opposition. And really, those opposition numbers aren't far off from the number of people who voted against Obama during the election. Obama could propose 30% tax cut tomorrow and many conservatives would still hate him.
 
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:59 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):

No, healthcare will simply become a luxury good that only the well-off can afford.

No, it means that health care will be priced at levels that the free market can accept. If people had to pay for their own health care and insurance individually, do you really think that a Tylenol would cost $500, or that a simple appendectomy costs $25,000? Those costs exist because of our perverted system where the person who pays the bill is not the same person as who receives the service. Fix that and you fix the pricing. Fix the pricing and you reduce the costs for the 80-90% or more of the population who can afford the insurance.

The rest can depend on Medicare/Medicaid and the thousands of charitable organizations.
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dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:32 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
No, healthcare will simply become a luxury good that only the well-off can afford.

There aren't that many "luxury" types around. In case you hadn't noticed, a significant minority in this country pays the majority of taxes.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Sure they've affected the price, but they've also made it so that the elderly actually HAVE health insurance. Kill Medicare and much of your elderly population would have no coverage.
Fix Medicare and the elderly will still have coverage while the medical community doesn't have to pass on the absorbed cost of doing business with the federal government to the rest of us.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
I never said that insurance companies "set health care" costs. However, they can influence costs...both positively and negatively.

You said:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
So you'd rather be forced to pay higher premiums to cover all those without insurance as you do now?

The reason that many don't have insurance is simply because of the cost of medical care. Your insinuation is that health insurance companies set rates independent of them.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
It's no surprise, the public has been so thoroughly scared to death that there will always be significant opposition.

It's no surprise, the public understands much more thoroughly than the politicians that this law spends money we don't have and does little if nothing to control cost. It does one thing well, it grows the size of government and increases it's power over the individual.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
No, it means that health care will be priced at levels that the free market can accept. If people had to pay for their own health care and insurance individually, do you really think that a Tylenol would cost $500, or that a simple appendectomy costs $25,000? Those costs exist because of our perverted system where the person who pays the bill is not the same person as who receives the service.

        

If HSA's were the norm instead of the exception people would be forced to be more responsible in their health care decisions. Of course personal responsibility are a couple of very bad words when teamed together to liberals in general. Another thing that could greatly help, and not cost the taxpayer a dime, is to get hospitals and doctors to list their prices for particular services so you could shop for your services. That does not mean decreasing standards, but having a more transparent system of pricing. Right now virtually anyone who has insurance has no idea how much it costs to go to the doctor other than their co-pay and they probably don't really care. Part of a large problem with the uninsured is that hospitals take advanatage of them in pricing even though there had already been federal law in place to stop that. How about we enforce the laws we already had before we spend trillions more?

http://www.healthinsurance-help.com/uninsured.html
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
No, it means that health care will be priced at levels that the free market can accept.

And those price levels will be out of reach for a significant portion of the population....particularly when you consider the stagnant incomes that most middler/lower income Americans will face in the future due to ever increasing global competition.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 46):
And those price levels will be out of reach for a significant portion of the population....particularly when you consider the stagnant incomes that most middler/lower income Americans will face in the future due to ever increasing global competition.

Complete supposition on your part. Prices are high now because doctors and hospitals can get away with it because the Insurance companies are willing to pay them, the employers are willing to pay the insurance premiums and pass on the additional expense to their customers, or the government who can raise taxes or borrow money. There are too many people involved who are perfectly willing to pass the cost on to someone else. That's what has to stop if the costs are supposed to be controlled.

Have you ever heard of Walmart? If you offer a lower price and make a lower margin per item, you can still be a lot more successful than those stores that keep their prices high and sell only to wealthy customers.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
If you offer a lower price and make a lower margin per item, you can still be a lot more successful than those stores that keep their prices high and sell only to wealthy customers.

Do you really think that business model will work with doctors? How many more patients do you really think a doctor can see? Many don't spend enough time with their patients as is and you expect them to go to an even higher volume and lower margin.

Let's take a look at one area of medicine where insurance/Medicare doesn't really distort the market, cosmetic surgery. Most of these procedures are not covered by any insurance and the free market is largely dictating prices. Despite that, the cosmetic surgery market caters only to the middle and upper brackets of income. I'm sure there are many poor people who would like cosmetic surgery, but they are simply priced out of the market. You won't find a lot of discount "Walmart" plastic surgeons who cater to the poor. And in most rural/inner city areas (where much of the population is poor), you won't find any plastic surgeons.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3)

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:25 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
Let's take a look at one area of medicine where insurance/Medicare doesn't really distort the market, cosmetic surgery. Most of these procedures are not covered by any insurance and the free market is largely dictating prices. Despite that, the cosmetic surgery market caters only to the middle and upper brackets of income.

Not a bad example - the price of cosmetic surgery is a lot lower than insured operations taking a similar amount of resources. According to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, the national average fee for breast augmentation in 2005 was $3,406. But for breast reduction, the average is $7,200, more than double. I would suggest that the difference is that the first is purely voluntary, and the second is often covered by insurance.
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