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OA260
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Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:07 am

The European single currency is under unprecedented pressure. But even in the most staunchly pro-European countries, some people have never been enamoured of the euro, as David Chazan discovers in rural France.

Shopkeeper Sylvie Auteau counts out a pile of French franc notes on the counter of her clothes shop.
"Most people prefer francs," says Ms Auteau. "They are French, after all."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8588048.stm
 
andz
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:18 am

I remember when the UK decimalised one TV station was going round the country asking people what they thought of the new currency. In one remote little village they asked an old lady and she said "I don't think it will catch on here"  
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:26 am

I like French Francs too and I wish we would have kept them instead of Euros. I have seen prices going up like crazy since the French Franc was taken out. A baguette now costs the equivalent of 6,50 French Francs, the same for a croissant. Crazy! Some must have really earned their bread and butter from the Euro!  Wow!
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directorguy
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:13 pm

Very interesting topic. Had no idea francs were still in circulation in some communities. I must admit, even I miss them. It's made intra-Euro travel easier since you don't have to change currency etc. but at the same time a major symbol of French cultural identity and French economic prowess is gone. It's no wonder some people lament the passing of the Franc. On recent visits to France, even I occassionally lapse and say 'franc' instead of 'euro'-simply because as a kid, I always used francs when visiting the country.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:37 pm

This is why I'm happy we still use Pound Sterling. It's the last proper British institution we have left, and if we go Euro the only thing that differentiates is from the rest of Europe (barring the 17 miles of water between us and France) is the road signs are in imperial.
 
Derico
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:53 pm

Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Of course we discern the cultural and linguistic differences, but as a ''civilization'' (a loaded term for this case), people elsewhere in the world make no differences between the British and the rest of Europe.
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:09 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Well plenty of countries I know do so it must be a lack of education in certain countries if they think that.  
 
RussianJet
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Anyone who really thought that way would truly be the epitomy of ignorance.
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Danfearn77
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:28 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):

Quite right. I love the pound and would be against the euro. Mind you, there is a clever little currency in London. In an area called Brixton I believe they have introduced the Brixton pound. It's one for one with the pound sterling but it can only be spent in the town of Brixton. Very clever as it keeps money local!!
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Derico
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:14 pm

There is as much difference between a British person and and Spanish Person as there is between a German and an Italian. No more no less, again from the view outside of Europe and without getting too deep into specifics in which it would be possible to find major distinctions between any nationality in Europe.

It is the same with Asians, many times people that are not Asian will not make a difference between a Korean, Japanese, or Chinese (even as I have learned to tell them away from each other), many don't.

Same with North Americans, outside of the region many will not see any difference between someone from Ontario, Western Canada, California, a yankee or a southerner. They are all the same.

And the same in Latin America, most non-Latin Americans see all people in the region as one and the same.

So it is not just Europe or the UK it is just a fact of life.

Russianjet, don't selectively quote me. You know what you did  

EDIT: Basically my point being that a currency is not really going to change or boost the perception of Britain being fully part of Europe, outside of Europe. In that sense, it is just a feel-good British object.

On the practical side however, it might have been a really good decision if things go downhill in the Eurozone with Greece, etc.

[Edited 2010-04-02 11:24:45]
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Rara
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:18 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Some must have really earned their bread and butter from the Euro! Wow!

Who do you suspect?
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:52 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 9):
And the same in Latin America, most non-Latin Americans see all people in the region as one and the same.


Well no one in my circle of friends from many many different backgrounds and nationalities think that way. They know the difference between a Brazilian and an Argentinian, an Indian and a Pakistani, Chinese from Japanese. Its again down to education and knowledge of Geography.
 
baguy
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:51 pm

But it isn't just France is it! All over Europe prices have gone up - for example some Portuguese friends of ours say it is much more expensive to live in Portugal with the euro as opposed to the escudo. In my view for many it has made the 'rich' richer and the 'poor' poorer.

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Rara
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting baguy (Reply 12):
But it isn't just France is it! All over Europe prices have gone up - for example some Portuguese friends of ours say it is much more expensive to live in Portugal with the euro as opposed to the escudo. In my view for many it has made the 'rich' richer and the 'poor' poorer.

Yeah but that's a myth. You can measure price increases, it's called inflation - and the introduction of the Euro has not pushed inflation in Europe above its usual level. Of course prices are higher in Portugal - or anywhere - than they were 10 years ago, but that would have occured without the Euro as well. If anything, the Euro has led to higher price stability in some southern European countries which were previously notorious for their high inflation rates.
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:18 pm

Quoting baguy (Reply 12):
But it isn't just France is it! All over Europe prices have gone up

In Ireland for instance things have rocketed. Bin charges/Food prices/Electronics. You change your Euro and go across the border to the UK and shop and its so much cheaper. So you are changing your Euro to a currency 12% stronger and its still 20-25% cheaper ! Something must be wrong. One reason I hope the UK never goes into the Euro.
 
doug_or
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:15 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 14):
In Ireland for instance things have rocketed. Bin charges/Food prices/Electronics. You change your Euro and go across the border to the UK and shop and its so much cheaper. So you are changing your Euro to a currency 12% stronger and its still 20-25% cheaper ! Something must be wrong. One reason I hope the UK never goes into the Euro.

Well the Irish economy has changed a weeeee bit in the last 10 years, hasn't it?

I strongly suspect [long term] price differences between the UK and Ireland are much more due to government economic and tax policy than the name of the currency.
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N1120A
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:11 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 14):
So you are changing your Euro to a currency 12% stronger and its still 20-25% cheaper !

The currency isn't actually stronger, it just has a higher nominal value. The USD is hardly stronger than the JPY, despite being "worth" around 90 times more. The Euro is actually much stronger than the Pound right now.
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fr8mech
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:29 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Speak for yourself.

Doesn't anyone else see a problem with a small town using a currency that is not supposed to be in circulation? In effect, to use an American term, isn't the Euro the only "legal tender" in the Euro-zone?

The use of any other currency undermines the Euro. If people decided they can use what they want as currency (absent the barter system for goods and services) doesn't that de-value the Euro?

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
and the introduction of the Euro has not pushed inflation in Europe above its usual level. Of course prices are higher in Portugal - or anywhere - than they were 10 years ago, but that would have occured without the Euro as well. If anything, the Euro has led to higher price stability in some southern European countries which were previously notorious for their high inflation rates.

I don't know, it seems everytime I visit my Dad in Greece, the prices have out-paced what I would consider a stable rate of inflation. My Dad tends to agree. He's living it on a fixed income. Of course, Greece has a whole other set of financial problems to boot.
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:32 pm

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 15):
price differences between the UK and Ireland are much more due to government economic and tax policy than the name of the currency.

Things have rocketed in price since the introduction of the Euro despite what everyone likes to think.

And yes things have changed regards the economy , we have gone from boom to bust in that time period. And if NAMA goes wrong we are really screwed.
 
mham001
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:45 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 9):
There is as much difference between a British person and and Spanish Person as there is between a German and an Italian. No more no less, again from the view outside of Europe and without getting too deep into specifics in which it would be possible to find major distinctions between any nationality in Europe.

To claim there is no difference between an Italian and a German is really quite ignorant.

That said, i can see how an uneducated or untraveled person could think that way when we see all the time on this forum people claiming allegiance to "European" doctrine and often, the various countries handing sovereignty to the politicians in Brussels.
 
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:49 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 19):
"European" doctrine and often, the various countries handing sovereignty to the politicians in Brussels.

The one thing that has come from all this economic crisis is the huge split between Europeans. We are not one we are seperate countries/cultures and ideas and we always will be. The EU is a false Union and it would be interesting to forward to 2050 and see what is left of it. I think there will come a time when they all want their Independance again.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
The use of any other currency undermines the Euro. If people decided they can use what they want as currency (absent the barter system for goods and services) doesn't that de-value the Euro?

Not really as long as the use of French Francs is not mandatory and the Euro is still accepted. It´s similar to a club or a large concert mandating the use of their own chips/coins/tokens (whatever you want to call them). Since the village has only 7000 inhabitants, chances are the "coins" used at a mayor concert venue have a wider circulation then the French Francs!
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Derico
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:43 am

Everyone is misunderstanding.

The original premise by a poster was ''the pound is the only thing that differenciates us from Europe'', my response is that while this maybe so for the Brits, for most it's just a currency and nothing more. Travelling from Paris to London and switching from Euros to Pounds does not (at least with me), give the feel that I have left Europe in any fashion whatsoever. Feels like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I must still be in a european country.

When I compared British to Spanish, or Italian to German, it was to point out that there ARE differences between them all, but not MORE differences between one compared to the other because of a currency or other such standard.

Come on, even ignorant people could tell if dropped magically From Italy to Germany, or from Denmark to France that they are not in the same country. I would never argue that.
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Pyrex
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:01 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Of course we discern the cultural and linguistic differences, but as a ''civilization'' (a loaded term for this case), people elsewhere in the world make no differences between the British and the rest of Europe.

I love it when I break to my British friends the news that they are, in fact, Europeans and they refuse to accept it. The reactions are the same as you see on this thread, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Quoting baguy (Reply 12):
But it isn't just France is it! All over Europe prices have gone up - for example some Portuguese friends of ours say it is much more expensive to live in Portugal with the euro as opposed to the escudo.

Well, what can I say, your Portuguese friends are very uninformed. A lot of people like to say "oh, the Euro doubled all prices overnight" (one Euro is 200 escudos, or about twice the standard measure previously) but somehow nobody cut their consumption in half...
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Rara
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:51 am

Quoting oa260 (Reply 18):
Things have rocketed in price since the introduction of the Euro despite what everyone likes to think.

Well that's a no-brainer. What's a typical annual inflation rate in Ireland, 3%? In the nine years since the introduction of the Euro, that would add up to almost 30%. Meaning the average product or service costs around 30% more than back in 2000. That would have occured with or without the Euro.

Now if you can show that the introduction Euro has increased inflation rates, you'd have a point. But the fact that "things have rocketed in price" doesn't prove anything.
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ajd1992
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:23 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 23):
I love it when I break to my British friends the news that they are, in fact, Europeans and they refuse to accept it. The reactions are the same as you see on this thread, but it doesn't make it any less true.

To be fair, we might believe it more if we were actually connected to the rest of the continent.  

Nobody in the UK says they're European before anything else. Hell, most people don't even say they're British, it's always English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish.

If I was asked, I'd say I was English first (both sides of my family are English), then British, then European. I never tell people I'm British so there's no chance in eternity I'm going to say i'm European.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:57 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 25):
To be fair, we might believe it more if we were actually connected to the rest of the continent.  

Nobody in the UK says they're European before anything else.

Portugal is further removed from the rest of Europe than you guys are. All you need to do is swim across 17 miles of water, we need to drive through the whole freaking Spanish countryside! Any idea how boring and unbearable that is, especially on a hot summer day? Face it, if we are Europeans so are you.

And nobody in any other part of Europe says that either (ok, maybe the Germans) so just another point to prove how European you are... 
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idealstandard
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:10 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
This is why I'm happy we still use Pound Sterling. It's the last proper British institution we have left, and if we go Euro the only thing that differentiates is from the rest of Europe (barring the 17 miles of water between us and France) is the road signs are in imperial.

While it may be nostalgic to some (I for one do not share your nostalgia, believe me), from a business and economy sense, the pound won't be with us forever.

I welcome the Euro. It will make a lot of things easier.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 27):
While it may be nostalgic to some (I for one do not share your nostalgia, believe me), from a business and economy sense, the pound won't be with us forever.

I welcome the Euro. It will make a lot of things easier.

OK, as a businessman, I see your point. I still hate the Euro though - it's like monopoly money and our Sterling is already going that way. The newer 20GBP note is horrible.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 26):
Portugal is further removed from the rest of Europe than you guys are. All you need to do is swim across 17 miles of water, we need to drive through the whole freaking Spanish countryside! Any idea how boring and unbearable that is, especially on a hot summer day? Face it, if we are Europeans so are you.

To be fair, if we swim the shortest distance between us and Europe we hit France, and France is just a country you drive through to get to the rest of Europe.  

I don't identify with Europeanism. Sure, I live in Europe, but we're not fully part of the Schengen agreement (like a lot of Europe is), we don't use the Euro (We're not the only one but more of Europe uses it than those who don't) and we're on an island in the north Atlantic, completely isolated from the rest of Europe border wise. I know my passport says I'm European but it also says I'm British and I don't even identify with that - I'm English to whoever asks.
 
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:35 pm

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 27):
the pound won't be with us forever.

No but UK entry is at least another 2 elections away . The idea of the Euro is great but we have all paid a price for it.
 
idealstandard
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:27 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 28):
OK, as a businessman, I see your point. I still hate the Euro though - it's like monopoly money and our Sterling is already going that way. The newer 20GBP note is horrible.

I agree there, they could put more effort into making the money more nostalgic.

Quoting oa260 (Reply 29):
No but UK entry is at least another 2 elections away . The idea of the Euro is great but we have all paid a price for it.

Yes, at first.
 
baroque
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:24 am

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
This is why I'm happy we still use Pound Sterling. It's the last proper British institution we have left, and if we go Euro the only thing that differentiates is from the rest of Europe (barring the 17 miles of water between us and France) is the road signs are in imperial.

And there was me thinking that QEII was Queen of The United Kingdom and not The Netherlands as we may have been close to learning for the WTO thread in Civil Av.

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Sorry to break it to you, but outside of Europe no one sees a difference between the UK, and France, Germany or Italy. You are all Europe.

Excellent. Amazing the dispute you won with that. If you did a factor analysis or a discriminant index, that is exactly what would come out of it. Europe and the REST. I guess Derico, it takes distance to lend perspective. Some of the ants are not aware that they are in a meadow apparently.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 28):
OK, as a businessman, I see your point. I still hate the Euro though - it's like monopoly money and our Sterling is already going that way. The newer 20GBP note is horrible.

Obviously Europe has little to worry about if currency is judged as a fashion statement. The pound should have been ditched after Adolf found is so easy to forge fivers.

Tell you what, if you agree to buy your currency from our manufacturers of untearable monoply money
http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/currency.html
we will go easy on you with our new battery of quicks in the upcoming Ashes! Now there is a bargain you actually need.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
If anything, the Euro has led to higher price stability in some southern European countries which were previously notorious for their high inflation rates.

Thats just where the tragedy of the Euro lies -- some people believed a change of currency and concentration of monetary power in the hands of the ECB would magically lead to all things being good everywhere. As we don't live in a make-believe but real world, we've seen where that led us to. As Soros has said, the only option now is to make the "ever closer Union" also responsible for the budgetary policies of the States, beginning with Greece, which process I encourage people to take a good look at.

[Edited 2010-04-04 04:22:15]
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:24 am

I'm a bit late to the latest "Bash the euro" party, so forgive me for being a party pooper. First off, there's no evidence to support the contention that the introduction of the euro resulted in any abnormal increase in inflation, other that the perception that the curency change resutled in an increase in prices througout the eurozone:

http://www.europesworld.org/NewEngli...eView/ArticleID/20661/Default.aspx

Fair use excertps:

Why did so many Europeans identify price hikes that went unrecorded by specialised economic institutions using state-of-the-art observations and well-established statistical techniques? This phenomenon is particularly puzzling given that it happened when annual price rises were so low in many countries that economic policymakers there were generally more worried about deflation than inflation.

After the euro’s introduction, many people complained that inflation had been underestimated because of the way rampant house prices were measured in national indices. In fact, actual and perceived inflation diverged substantially in nations where house prices remained stable as well as those experiencing a bubble.


Surveys nevertheless clearly showed that many Europeans were convinced that prices rose significantly from the start of 2002. So there must be some good reasons for the discrepancy between public perceptions and official data. Having read a number of studies that attempt to explain this conundrum, I think a consensus is emerging. The answer comprises various elements, mostly boiling down to human psychology.

Other misconceptions apparently played a role in these inflation perceptions. The changeover from national currencies to the euro meant that householders faced a steep learning curve. At the beginning, it was natural to compare prices in euro with prices in defunct national currencies – a complex enough task in itself, especially in countries where the conversion rate was complicated. People remembered how much things cost in “old money” at the end of 2001, but over time this comparison became increasingly invalid: even in 2005 euro prices were still being compared with their 2001 levels.




This is similar to what happened in the UK and Ireland after the changeover to decimal currency in 1971, the only difference being the fact that inflation DID take-off then, albeit a few years after the introduction of the new currency. This was due to the unprecedented tripling of oil prices after the Yom Kippur war in 1973, and nothing to do with the currency changeover. Yet the public perception was that the currency change was the cause of rampant inflation.

As mentioned in the last paragraph above, people had fixed in their minds the price of items in their national currencies just before the changeover, and as years passed, stuck to this increasingly invalid comparison. Understandable, but not realistic. MadameConcorde above takes this one step further by extrapolating the price in francs of baguettes and crosissants from their 2001 prices, which simply is not realistic, given that eight years have passed since the currency's introduction. 6.50 francs converts to one euro, the equivalent of US$1.35, 88 UK pence and AU$1.45, which I doubt is any different to the price of those items in those latter three countries. And prices there cannot be blamed on the euro, of course.

Quoting oa260 (Reply 14):
In Ireland for instance things have rocketed. Bin charges/Food prices/Electronics. You change your Euro and go across the border to the UK and shop and its so much cheaper. So you are changing your Euro to a currency 12% stronger and its still 20-25% cheaper ! Something must be wrong. One reason I hope the UK never goes into the Euro.

A lot of price rises in this country over the last ten yeas have been down to the fact that we completely lost the run of ourselves during the Celtic Tiger years. Put this down to reckless bankers, government spending and the housing bubble. The latter was, in part, down to us adopting the euro, as low eurozone interest rates fuelled the boom, but this could have been prevented by reckless bankers curtailing their lending habits, which, in some instances, led to 120% housing loans. Blame the financial regulator here.

As regards prices being cheaper in Northern Ireland, this is mostly due to the collapse in of the UK pound over the last couple of years. This won't last forever, and there will more-than-likey come a time when the situation is reversed and consumers will be flocking over the border in the other direction and spending euro in the Republic. All you need here is for the UK economy to recover and investors to move money into sterling.

[Edited 2010-04-05 03:16:37]
 
AverageUser
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:16 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 33):
as low eurozone interest rates fuelled the boom,

Yep, one rate does not fit all, unless we live in a totally integrated European economy, which will never be a reality.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 34):
Yep, one rate does not fit all, unless we live in a totally integrated European economy, which will never be a reality.

We're living in interesting times, and one where the euro is being seriously stress-tested, but so far so good, If it can survive the current financial crisis it can probably survive anything. The worst scenario at the moment is the possibilty of Greece leaving the eurozone, which may, or may not, destabilise the currency. While Ireland has been badly hit with the triple-whammy of the euro/£ excahnge rate, a banking crisis and a burst property bubble, there is no real appetite here for leaving the euro. Only a handful of economists have advocated it, but most don't. One reason being that a return to the Irish pound in order to devalue the currency would immediately mean a massive increase in national debt. While the exchange rate has been a problem for the Irish economy with consumers flocking north of the border, taking millions of euro out of the economy at the worst possible time, this is not expected to last forever. And companies here have been fighting back by reducing costs and wages (unfortunate for those in such jobs, but a boon to those still in employment and who haven't had pay cuts), resulting in the consumer price index actually falling in the last two years. The situation seems manageable.

And I'm in shock: out of curiosity I checked the prices of a baguette and a croissant in my local supermarket. The baguette was 85 cent and the croissant 79 cent. They're not items I buy often (can't remember the last time I bought a croissant) and I would have expected them to be dearer. I have no idea what they cost in 2001, but they seem reasonably priced and the currency changeover hasn't brought them to the euro level which MadameConcorde pays in Monaco.
 
Rara
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:49 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
One reason being that a return to the Irish pound in order to devalue the currency would immediately mean a massive increase in national debt.

While I agree with your points, this one I don't quite understand. Wouldn't leaving the Euro mean a new, devaluated pound, high inflation and accordingly a decrease in national debt?
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:11 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
Of course we discern the cultural and linguistic differences, but as a ''civilization'' (a loaded term for this case), people elsewhere in the world make no differences between the British and the rest of Europe.

I respectfully disagree. From a 'civilization' stand point we could add the US, Canada, Australia and NZ to the 'Western' bag. Now, if we take the generalization a notch below, several Europes arise: Anglo, Latin, Slavic. Anyway, the UK is closer in both dimensions to the US or Canada, than to say France (not to mention Portugal or Malta).
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:35 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 36):
Wouldn't leaving the Euro mean a new, devaluated pound, high inflation and accordingly a decrease in national debt?

But the debt would be in euro, US dollars and other currencies. So for argument's sake, say we owed 10 billion euro worth of external debt on leaving the euro, and our currency was immediately devalued by 50 per cent, that figure would double overnight, as it would take twice as many Irish pounds to buy the 10 billion euro.

This happened in Iceland when the krona collapsed in 2008, saddling the nation with a huge increase in foreign debt.

[Edited 2010-04-05 09:36:37]
 
AverageUser
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:48 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
The worst scenario at the moment is the possibilty of Greece leaving the eurozone, which may, or may not, destabilise the currency

We've been told that will definitely not happen. Either the leadership, or Soros and all his money is right here ... it's truly interesting times ... Greece's public bond rates show no signs of immediate decline... money talks, BS walks ..

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 38):
This happened in Iceland when the krona collapsed in 2008, saddling the nation with a huge increase in foreign debt.

Only your order is reversed here -- the Icelandic króna collapsed due to the disproportionate amount of foreign debt -- and in a free-market system to collapse is just what it should have done. The Euro postpones nad masks the inevitable for Ireland.

[Edited 2010-04-05 10:22:57]
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:52 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 37):
I respectfully disagree. From a 'civilization' stand point we could add the US, Canada, Australia and NZ to the 'Western' bag. Now, if we take the generalization a notch below, several Europes arise: Anglo, Latin, Slavic. Anyway, the UK is closer in both dimensions to the US or Canada, than to say France (not to mention Portugal or Malta).

And that's exactly my point, but those differences make the world interesting. On a very general brush though, when people are in London, most do not think they are in the United States or Canada. There are just too many little details that tell you it is Europe.

But as you said, one also can see that there are many points in common with the former British colonies. Just because Britain is and feels like Europe it does not negate the fact it also has commonalities with the other english-speaking societies. One does not have to diminish the other.

You can also open this ''can of worms'' in Latin America. I once heard on this topic from a Mexican I met while on a bus tour vacation, and he said he wasn't alone in saying he felt more at home in Los Angeles or Chicago than in Buenos Aires. As everyone in LatAm knows a lot has been said and spoken through the years about the ''southern cone'' cultural divide, from the bland food (compared to Peru and points north), the different musical culture and tastes (not the typical latin style rythms, in Argentina specially so), the lack of indigenous traditions, the kissing among male friends to say hello/goodbye, different senses of humour, to even the use of bidets and flushing paper down the toilet vs not. Heck, many tourists biggest complaint about visiting Argentina (when they stick to the bg metropolitan areas), is that it did not feel like Latin America. Which is why many head to Salta and the Northwest and then they are like ''yeah, this is more like it''...  

. I happen to believe it is all Latin America, just like all of Europe is Europe. However, this does not negate the certainty of regional and national identities and cultural differences.
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Rara
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 38):

But the debt would be in euro, US dollars and other currencies. So for argument's sake, say we owed 10 billion euro worth of external debt on leaving the euro, and our currency was immediately devalued by 50 per cent, that figure would double overnight, as it would take twice as many Irish pounds to buy the 10 billion euro.

This happened in Iceland when the krona collapsed in 2008, saddling the nation with a huge increase in foreign debt.

Ah you're talking about external debt. Now it makes sense, thanks.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:34 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 40):
However, this does not negate the certainty of regional and national identities and cultural differences.

And that is what makes travelling interesting.....imagine if everywhere you went all things were standardized.
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:47 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
Ah you're talking about external debt. Now it makes sense, thanks.

Oops, sorry. I didn't make that clearer!


Quoting Derico (Reply 40):
I happen to believe it is all Latin America, just like all of Europe is Europe. However, this does not negate the certainty of regional and national identities and cultural differences.

I think Derico makes a valid point, and the more removed one is from the continent the more homogenous it seems. There is a huge ignorance in this part of the world about Latin America (though this would no doubt be much less so in Spain and Portugal). While people would be aware of the larger countries, unless they've travelled there they would know practially nothing about their politics, cultures, cuisines or racial mixes. And as for the smaller countries, forget it! I have an Uruguayan friend here who told me he was Argentinian when I met him first four years ago. When I asked him what part of Argentina he came from, he smiled and said he wasn't, and was actually from Uruguay. Intrigued, I asked him why he'd told me he was from Argentina. He said he does it all the time as he got fed-up with people asking him where Uruguay was. A lot of people simply had never heard of the country, and others had heard of it, but hadn't a clue where it was. Likewise, when I booked a trip to Venezuela about ten years ago, two young football fanatics I knew at the time both asked (separately) "Where's that?". They were very clued-in to football, and had Venezuela had a team of note would probably known of the country, but seemingly basketball is the national sport out there, so the country was completely off their radar.
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:12 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 39):
Greece's public bond rates show no signs of immediate decline... money talks, BS walks ..

Greece wont be leaving the Euro and the worst is over for Greece. All the hype has been about Greece in the media but there are a few other countries in the next few months that will steal the limelight IMHO.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
The baguette was 85 cent and the croissant 79 cent

Thats not the norm for Irish prices ! And the exchange rate isnt moving anytime soon either, people have been saying that for the last 12 years and I live on the border and deal with both currencies everyday. Even the petrol is nearly the same now in the North, something that historically was cheaper in the South. Today in the South , Maxol Service station Newry Road it was €1.34 per litre ! In the more than a decade Ive lived here the North has always been cheaper for the majority of food,clothing,electronics,furniture,cars ( even importing it and paying VRT which I did on my new car back in November ) at all levels of the exchange rate. Its always been cheaper to change Euro into Pounds and drive North. The recent flood of people were triggered by the even better deals and jobless figures in the South where people just couldnt afford to pay Southern Euro prices.
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 44):
Thats not the norm for Irish prices !

Maybe it's the new reality hitting Irish shops. I have to say I was surprised, as I was expecting both to cost over a euro. And this was in Superquinn, generally regarded as the most expensive of the three large chains. Prices have been falling here for a while, with some amazing offers on food and BOGOF is becoming a big draw (buy one get one free). We have entered a period of delfation over the last two years, with prices dropping around 5 per cent in the last year alone.

As regards the exchange rate, remember when the euro was introduced it headed south for the first couple of years, ending up at €1.63 to the £ (now it's €1.11)? There's nothing to say that something like that won't happen again. Currencies fluctuate all the time, and if the UK emerges from this recession quicker than the eurozone, the chances are that sterling will increase in value, making travelling north of the border less attractive.

But the situation isn't as bad now as it was in December '08. I remember passing through Heathrow at the time, and travellers were getting less euro for their sterling (taking the commission into account) as the two currencies were almost at parity. Here there was a massive exodus north by people doing their Chrismas shopping, causing panic among retailers. Since then the pound has strengthened against the euro, and only in the last week this has improved further with positive figures coming out of the UK. So while shoppers here are still heading north, there aren't as many as fifteen months ago, and with prices falling here there will be less and less need to. Consumers are adding the cost of driving north and the hassle involved (tailbacks several kilometers long), plus extras like tolls and meals into account and finding it less and less attractive. And the further you get from the border the less people travel north. Here I know of only two familes who shop regularly in the North, and both of them have Northern connections, so they're combining family visits with shopping trips. I know town centres have been devastaed in the southern border towns, but there are no riots on the streets (yet!) and if they're managing to oope, the rest of the country surely will. And, while I'm not a fan of patriotism, personally I'm doing my bit for the economy and have refused to shop in the North. But then I'm lucky in that I don't have a family and am still in employment.

I know it's before your time (and another currency ago) but it wasn't always thus. The Irish pound was a basket case in the early 80s and slumped from parity with sterling to losing a third of its value. Then the reverse happened and Northerners travelled south to shop, and businesses (mainly petrol stations) on the Northern side of the border suffered and even closed.

So while the euro has lost some value over the last couple of weeks, it could still lose a lot more and still be at the exchange rate when it was introduced, which was around €1.25. But the trouble is, you never know with currencies -- if we did we'd all be millionaires . . .

Quoting OA260 (Reply 44):
Today in the South , Maxol Service station Newry Road it was €1.34 per litre !

Well I'm sorry, but they deserve everything they get if they're charging €1.34 close to the border. That's ten cent dearer than it is around here.

[Edited 2010-04-05 14:02:36]
 
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:18 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 45):
making travelling north of the border less attractive.

But even at its worst rate its still cheaper in the North. I did a huge shop at ASDA on Thursday and I saved over €70 and that was at a rate of 90p to €1 and I paid Euro.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 45):
Well I'm sorry, but they deserve everything they get if they're charging €1.34

I must ask my collegue's how much it is in Navan and Drogheda as they commute from there .
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:41 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 46):
But even at its worst rate its still cheaper in the North. I did a huge shop at ASDA on Thursday and I saved over €70 and that was at a rate of 90p to €1 and I paid Euro.

Well make the most of it! This will change in time as UK inflation is currently running around 3%. Here we're in a period of deflation, with the Consumer Price Index falling by between 6% and 3% over the last couple of months. It dosen't necessarily mean that prices in the two parts of the country will converge, but they will move closer over time. Thta's the thing with a currency drop, inflation starts to take-off and the benefits of the devaluation gradually erode.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 46):
I must ask my collegue's how much it is in Navan and Drogheda as they commute from there

According to the AA, the average price per litre in March was 127.7 cent:

http://www.aaireland.ie/petrolprices/
 
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OA260
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 47):
Well make the most of it!

I have been the last decade so I wont hold my breath for the Eurozone ( Republic of Ireland ) to suddenly do something its never done before. Take a trip to ASDA or Sainsburys and youll know what I mean. Ive saved thousands of Euro doing just that.   Its more of an issue in the border counties due to our easy access to the cheaper prices. If I lived in Cork or South Of Dublin Id be really miffed.
 
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RE: Eurosceptic French Town Rejects Euro

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:27 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 44):
Greece wont be leaving the Euro and the worst is over for Greece. All the hype has been about Greece in the media but there are a few other countries in the next few months that will steal the limelight IMHO.

Could be stealing .. the European monetary union will be technically dissolved this year, as Luxembourg, Malta, and Finland that were the last countries to be eligible for it will have excessive deficits (greater that 3,0% of GDP) in 2010!



The interest rates for 10-year public bonds for selected EU countries: Set your bets!

Kreikka=Greece
Suomi=Finland
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