AKLDELNonstop
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Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:02 pm

Ok so I am in Kansas City, Missourie on some business. One of my friends here invited me to this nightclub called Mosaic on Friday night.

I was with three other friends (none of them American). When we tried to get in they wouldn't accept overseas driving license as ID proof (never mind that the car rentals don't have any problems with overseas licenses). Anyway the guy asked to see our passports, which for some reason I was carrying. Not just that, he then asked me to show him the visa!!! I mean really??? Passport and visa to enter a night club???

As my other friends weren't carrying their passports, we were not allowed in.

So we went to another bar, where we got in..no problems and had a really great night. Some awesome people in Kansas City. But I still wonder, what kind of guy would ask for passport and visa to enter a nightclub. I am sure this isn't the norm in the US, but it's guys like these who create a negative image for outsiders (aliens as you guys like to call us :P).

But yeah overall we had a great night.
 
airtran737
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:05 pm

I don't know why he'd ask for a visa (maybe he works on the side for I.N.S.), but I have had to use my passport to enter clubs and buy train tickets when abroad because they wouldn't take my drivers license.
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LTU932
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:16 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
I don't know why he'd ask for a visa (maybe he works on the side for I.N.S.), but I have had to use my passport to enter clubs and buy train tickets when abroad because they wouldn't take my drivers license.

Other countries do not accept driver's licences as ID documents because unlike the US, where you can use e.g. your driver's licence or social security card as legal ID, most countries simply don't recognise a driver's licence as legal identification document. Most countries require either passport or national ID card for identification purposes (e.g. within Schengen, if you're a German travelling to Austria, or a Pole travelling to Spain, your ID card would suffice). That being said, why would a local place in the US request someone's passport and even visa to enter the place?

I remember one time in the US (this was told here once), where someone was asked for an ID (he wanted a drink), showed his passport, but the person who asked for the ID did not accept that, so he had to pull his driver's licence and could finally have a drink.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
When we tried to get in they wouldn't accept overseas driving license as ID proof (never mind that the car rentals don't have any problems with overseas licenses).

Car rental agencies are very used to seeing foreign DL's. Many nightclubs aren't used to seeing out-of-state ones (and a friend of mine got refused entry because he didn't have an Arizona ID).

This is the result of rather poorly worded newer laws that punish individual servers with huge fines for serving alcohol to people under 21, even if they believed the ID was genuine.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
he then asked me to show him the visa!!!

Just a retard on a power trip.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
I am sure this isn't the norm in the US, but it's guys like these who create a negative image for outsiders (aliens as you guys like to call us :P).

I've always had to use my passport when in Europe...
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:30 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
I've always had to use my passport when in Europe...

It's not so much the passport that irked. Okay I can understand that. But to ask me for my visa. Now that was annoying.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:32 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
I've always had to use my passport when in Europe...

Like I implied in my post, in Europe a passport is legally considered an identification document, while a driver's licence is not. As a non-Schengen citizen, it would be obvious for you to be asked for your passport. If you were a national of a Schengen country within a Schengen country, then the national ID card is the ID of choice (e.g. Spain's DNI, Germany's Personalausweis, France's carte nationale d'identité, etc.).

I don't want to start a discussion on that, but maybe the states could perhaps simplify their ID mess by either clarifying those laws for IDing underage drinkers, clarify ID requirements during a stay in the US for foreign visitors, or the country could consider introducing a national ID card? Besides, what if someone never made a driver's licence and thus, despite being 21 or older, doesn't have one to ID himself? Is he or she then SOL when asked for a driver's licence, or would they still accept e.g. at least the national ID during the stay in the US?

[Edited 2010-04-11 11:34:14]
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:33 pm

If you are a diplomat in the USA you are issued a special driver license from the dept. of state. I lost how many times i did have to explain why i am carrying this special D L. At car hire desks, airline check in, and even the TSA. The most common question is what state issued this 
I do not drink for health and other reasons and i look way over 21 even way over 41 so no problem going into clubs. ?  

Also some countries are visa exempt, so what happens then? Will he call the ISN or he will not allow you in and put you on the first plane back? Is this what they call a power trip?

[Edited 2010-04-11 12:02:02]
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:50 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
Besides, what if someone never made a driver's licence and thus, despite being 21 or older, doesn't have one to ID himself? Is he or she then SOL when asked for a driver's licence, or would they still accept e.g. at least the national ID during the stay in the US?

I believe in Missourie you can get a Non-Driver's license that can be used as an age proof document.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
Anyway the guy asked to see our passports, which for some reason I was carrying.

You should always, always, ALWAYS carry your passports when abroad. You never know when you'll really need them. What if you had gotten into a legal issue while abroad with the police??

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
As my other friends weren't carrying their passports...

Not very smart. A big mistake to go without your passport while traveling abroad.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
the US, where you can use e.g. your driver's licence or social security card as legal ID

Not anymore. The Social Security card is not an acceptable form of ID anymore. It does not have a picture of the bearer on it.
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ajd1992
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):

Like I implied in my post, in Europe a passport is legally considered an identification document, while a driver's licence is not. As a non-Schengen citizen, it would be obvious for you to be asked for your passport. If you were a national of a Schengen country within a Schengen country, then the national ID card is the ID of choice (e.g. Spain's DNI, Germany's Personalausweis, France's carte nationale d'identité, etc.).

In the UK a driving licence is considered a legal ID document. I've used mine for ID in the bank, pubs (long story, I'm not 18 but they still wanted ID). We don't have a compulsory national ID card though so it's just as well they're accepted, passports are too big and too valuable to be carrying around.

Either way - he was just a guy gone mad with power. If immigration think you're there for a holiday and not to work or whatever, he has no right in asking you why you're there.
 
csavel
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:02 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
Anyway the guy asked to see our passports, which for some reason I was carrying.

You should always, always, ALWAYS carry your passports when abroad. You never know when you'll really need them. What if you had gotten into a legal issue while abroad with the police??

Actually unless the country specifically requires it OR you have no safe place to store it, you should NEVER carry your passport. You should make a photocopy of the passport and carry that, otherwise you are SOL if you lose it and it is a pain in the butt to get a replacement on short notice. if the cop *really* needs to see your passport and won't accept the copy, well then you have a problem, but I think that is much less likely than you losing your passport or having it stolen.

Again this does not apply if you have no safe place to stow it, then carry it.

When I travel on business (and thus am not staying at a sh*thole), my passport is in the hotel safe for the duration.
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trident3
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:08 pm

I had the same thing happen to me in Boston last year. A friend and I went to see ZZ Top at the Orpheum and they would not accept his ID to buy beer ( he is a Mass resident but I don't know what the ID he had was) I produced my UK passport flipped open to the photo page as I would do when entering a bar and the little hitler behind the counter demanded to see a valid entrance stamp as well. She then had the temerity to charge 10 dollars each for a beer !
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AirframeAS
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:18 pm

Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
you should NEVER carry your passport.

I disagree.

Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
if the cop *really* needs to see your passport and won't accept the copy, well then you have a problem..

More reason why one should always, always carry their passport. It is the smart thing to do. You only lose your passport when you are not acting responsible for it.

Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
my passport is in the hotel safe for the duration.

Not very smart.   
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DocLightning
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:00 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
I don't know why he'd ask for a visa (maybe he works on the side for I.N.S.), but I have had to use my passport to enter clubs and buy train tickets when abroad because they wouldn't take my drivers license.

I rarely have to prove my age anymore   but I remember once going out in NYC with my passport. I think I'd just surrendered my MI license (they take the old license from you in NY) and was waiting for my NY license to come in the mail.
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ManuCH
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
You should always, always, ALWAYS carry your passports when abroad. You never know when you'll really need them. What if you had gotten into a legal issue while abroad with the police??

I NEVER carry my passport around. It is only used while traveling, for the duration of the trip itself. When not on the road to/from the airport, I have my national ID card with me. Should I run into police who wants to see my passport, I have a photocopy with me. If that's not enough, I'll be glad to go to the hotel and pick it up (with police escort, I suppose).

I don't have that much of a travel experience (it's usually 1-2 leisure international trips per year maximum for me), but my father has been flying all over the world for 30 years, at least 1 trip per month, and he uses my same philosophy (more precisely, I copied mine from him). Never had a problem with police, and the passport is well safe at the hotel.

OTOH, the only person I know who carries the passport around actually lost it while in the UK. She missed the flight and had to re-book and pay for it twice.
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DocLightning
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:08 pm

Oh, and I'm not sure if this still happens, but in some places in CA, they won't accept out-of-state licenses. I was once visiting my mom in Santa Barbara while I was in med school. I went to the local supermarket and the lady asked for my ID (I was getting some wine with the rest of my groceries to make dinner) and when I showed her my MI ID (I was 27 at the time), she told me that they only accept CA licenses.

Now, the law says that you need to be 21 to drink. The store isn't legally bound to follow the law to the letter as long as nobody under 21 can purchase alcohol there. They can have a policy of only selling to people over the age of 45 if they want. It's their right. I also have some rights.  

I was polite; I always am. It's not her policy, so there's no point bawling her out over it. But I have the right to pick a different store if I don't like the policy. And so I asked her to cancel the transaction, apologized to her that they'd have to re-shelve my entire order, and walked out.
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csavel
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
if the cop *really* needs to see your passport and won't accept the copy, well then you have a problem..

More reason why one should always, always carry their passport. It is the smart thing to do. You only lose your passport when you are not acting responsible for it.

Well you could also be robbed or held up. Responsibility rarely enters into the equation. Plus, you know, nobody is 100% responsible 100% of the time. If you are travelling in a place where you might not know the language or customs, why not make it so you have one less thing to worry about.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
my passport is in the hotel safe for the duration.

Not very smart.

Again, i stand by my assertion that unless the laws of the country require you to do so, or there is no secure place to store it at a hotel, you are far better off NOT carrying your passport around. I've been doing it that way for 20 years now.
And note ManuCH reports that his father, who has a lot of travel experience does the same thing.
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virgin744
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):

Totally disagree with you on this and have to admit you're absolutely wrong in your way of thinking, that last thing you'd want to be doing on holiday is carrying your passport around with you everywhere. The safest place for you to store your belongings and most especially your passport is in your hotel room, preferebly in the safe.

You will statistically AND realistically have more chance of your personal belongings (including passport) to be stolen or lost when you have it on you rather than be left in your hotel room! That's a fact!! You are very misinformed or ill advised if you think anything to the contraty of this.

Carrying any other form of ID such as a out of state or foreign drivers license is and should be perfectly acceptable in most places. I have shown my UK drivers license in many US states and foreign countries including Philippines, Turkey, Cyprus etc and no-one has ever said this wasnt adequate enough.

Whilst LTU932 is correct in that a drivers license may not be a national form of ID it is a fact that they ARE issued by govermental departments and organisations for example the DVLA is a UK government organisation and its database is used by police, similarly, the DMV (US department of motor vehicles) is also a government agency and their database is also access by police
 
sw733
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Let me add my opinion as a foreign born Kansas City-area resident...now, I am a dual citizen, raised by American parents so I speak with an American accent, and I have a Kansas drivers license, but...

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Thread starter):
Mosaic

Here might be your first problem. KC Power & Light District is the "go to" place for underage people who think it's cool to be overcharged and act like douchebags (oh, wait, my fiance is 28 and still loves it there...oh well, at least I hate it at Power & Light), so the bars there are usually pretty tight with ID requirements.

That being said, the passport is a somewhat understandable request, but certainly NOT the visa request. The doorman is not an immigration officer. I would have told him to shove it and left...just go down the street to The Flying Saucer, much better place anyways  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
Just a retard on a power trip.

Especially at Mosaic. That place is full of idiots, and there must have been since 17 year old girl in back of him in line that he was trying to impress/molest.
 
Flyer732
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
More reason why one should always, always carry their passport. It is the smart thing to do. You only lose your passport when you are not acting responsible for it.

Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
my passport is in the hotel safe for the duration.

Not very smart.

I travel some pretty bad places, and I usually don't carry my passport out with me. Its locked up somewhere safe. I work for an international airline, and most of the employees I work with don't carry theirs on their person when out.

The only place I've ever carried my passport on me is in Russia and former Soviet states where ID checks are the norm, and even then I've never been asked to see it.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 17):
similarly, the DMV (US department of motor vehicles) is also a government agency and their database is also access by police

BTW, can anybody explain why the DMV is a government agency, but there are no US driver's licence ?

That seems all the more strange that there is no mandatory US ID card either.

I find a national ID card pretty useful, and quite less bothersome than a passport, it fits nicely in the wallet. I started using it at 12 to see movies restricted to less than that age (obviously you won't have a driver's licence at 12).

It's looking as there will be an European driving licence before an US one.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:50 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
BTW, can anybody explain why the DMV is a government agency, but there are no US driver's licence ?

i could be wrong here, but it seems there is different driving laws in each state, thats why the driving license is issued in each state and not a US one. Again i can be wrong here. Also to make sure that the fees paid goes to the state where the driver reside.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:07 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
BTW, can anybody explain why the DMV is a government agency, but there are no US driver's licence ?

Just to inconvenience those who move between different states, make them get a new licence (at the latest) 6 months after setting up residence in another state.

It's a bit funny that the US requires driving, whereas in Europe you don't need to drive, yet the general speed limits are much lower in the US, at least on highways.

But I do believe it is rather strange that the US doesn't have a national ID card... I see no real motive to not have one... I guess that there's something in the Constitution that's against it, at least that's what some people claim, but I don't really know.

I do think a national ID card would be useful. It could also serve as Driver's License, provided you pass the test... So, yeah, to someone who knows the law... Why not?
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:13 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
BTW, can anybody explain why the DMV is a government agency, but there are no US driver's licence ?

Funny enough...When I was applying for my first learner's permit in NY before moving to Germany, a video was playing on the TV on the waiting line. It was very NY-centric and I'll shorten it up an paraphrase a bit...

As more people started getting automobiles, more accidents began to happen, especially in places such as NYC. In addition, the well-off citizens of NY wanted to make sure that chauffeurs knew how to operate the car, as the "normal" practice among the rich was to hire someone off the street in addition to your other servants just to drive your car for you. Of course, this led to many unskilled drivers putting NY's elite in danger as many had no idea how to operate a car. At the insistence of of wealthy, NYS began issuing a document proving that chauffeurs actually knew how to operate the specific model of car they were driving. Back before the location of major controls were standardised, each model of car had a unique setup for braking, steering, accelerating etc.. Some cars had just a handbrake while others had 2 footbrakes, both needing to be pressed simultaneously, or other strange setups. Some states, especially those on the frontiers, did not have the amount of urbanisation that areas like NY did. So the federal gov. decided it was best left up to the states to issue their own guidelines. Today although automobiles are much more standardised, there are varying licensing standards among states: different licensing ages, different residency requirements, different vehicle classification standards, and different exams and lectures, making issuing a single US driving license impractical.
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474218
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
BTW, can anybody explain why the DMV is a government agency, but there are no US driver's licence ?

DMV (Department of Motor Vehicals) is a State agency not a federal government agency. Each of the 50 States in the United States has there own system of licensing motor vehicles and their drivers.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:23 am

I have seen passports requested at Nightclubs and various businesses to verify age or idenity if a person is apparently a foreign national and does not have a USA state drivers license or State issued non-drivers ID card. Probably all passports have English used, so the date of birth can be easily determined, thus a secure enough document that a place of business would request for those circumstances where age or identity is required (nightclubs, motels) and other documents may not have English on them.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:32 am

There are two requirements to being a bouncer in a bar/nightclub: be an asshole and be able to stand by a door.

Quoting trident3 (Reply 11):
I had the same thing happen to me in Boston last year. A friend and I went to see ZZ Top at the Orpheum and they would not accept his ID to buy beer ( he is a Mass resident but I don't know what the ID he had was) I produced my UK passport flipped open to the photo page as I would do when entering a bar and the little hitler behind the counter demanded to see a valid entrance stamp as well.

Boston bars and nightclubs are notoriously ridiculous in that respect - drinking laws in MA still reflect the puritanical douchebaggery the city was founded upon, and Boston cops are total zealots in making sure they get implemented.

That said, I thought Boston was bad until I tried to buy beer in a supermarket in some small-ish town in Maine. The cashiers had to go get the manager before they would take a passport as proof of age, and it seemed it was their first time holding one.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
More reason why one should always, always carry their passport. It is the smart thing to do. You only lose your passport when you are not acting responsible for it.

I don't think so. I have been living in the U.S. for 3 years and in the beggining I always used to carry my passport with me but the truth is it just gets bent and worn out. I had to get a replacement passport issued because you couldn't even tell what country I was a national of any more.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Oh, and I'm not sure if this still happens, but in some places in CA, they won't accept out-of-state licenses.

Not only in CA but other states as well. How that can be considered constitutional in the U.S. I will never understand. Aren't there laws against discriminating someone based on their residence?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 22):

Just to inconvenience those who move between different states, make them get a new licence (at the latest) 6 months after setting up residence in another state.

6 months? I wish. I had a friend of mine be pulled over and get arrested because some cop on a power trip thought he should have a MA drivers license because his girlfriend lived in Boston and he visited her on weekends, and so according to her definition had been living in MA for over a month. I was in the back seat and we had to drive around the most dangerous neighborhood in Boston on a Saturday night looking for the police station to bail him out.

Sometimes I think it is almost easier to move residences in Europe than in the U.S.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:35 am

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 14):
Quoting csavel (Reply 16):
Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 17):
Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 19):

Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day.
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Maverick623
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
You should always, always, ALWAYS carry your passports when abroad. You never know when you'll really need them.

A photocopy will suffice for most purposes. If they really wanna see your passport they'll escort you back to your room to get it.

The only time I was asked for it was outside of the Strasbourg train station. I was walking to get some lunch, and only had it with me because I wasn't gonna leave it in the hostel I was staying at.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 7):

I believe in Missourie you can get a Non-Driver's license that can be used as an age proof document.

All 50 states issue non-driver photo IDs.

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 17):
the DMV (US department of motor vehicles)

No such entity. Each state regulates their own DMV.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 22):
It could also serve as Driver's License, provided you pass the test... So, yeah, to someone who knows the law... Why not?

The national ID card is not exactly popular among Americans, and that's putting it mildly. Which is retarded, because the Passport card that just came out is basically the same thing.
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grozzy
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:08 am

Ive been to places in London which require photo ID as deposit for the audo guide. No way am I giving up my passport, so my Australian liscense has been OK. I dont know about other countries, but Australian licences require multiple IDs to obtain and are usually as good as a passport.
 
bookishaviator
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:07 am

I regularly get asked to show my passport when going out in NYC (has happened on each trip there to date), but I rarely have it on my person so have often been denied entry. If, however, I have tickets to a gig or some such event, then I try to ensure I have it on me... and spend the whole night feeling my pockets to check it hasn't been pilfered. Everywhere else I've travelled (elsewhere in the US and around Europe and Asia), my Australian driver licence has always sufficed.
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PanHAM
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:28 am

Quoting csavel (Reply 16):
And note ManuCH reports that his father, who has a lot of travel experience does the same thing.

ManuCH's father is right. First thing I do when getting into my hotel room is putting the passport and the credit cards I don't need into the room safe. Simple reason, when you get mugged somewhere you have a helluva problem to get the passport replaced. In DC, NY or other rare places where a German consulate exist, OK , then its a matter of 2 hours but out in the country it might take a plane trip to the nearest consulate.

I carry the drivers licence, one or two credit cards and the rental agreement plus the hotel registration stub where they put the key cards in, that's all. if I get stopped by police, that is sufficient for ID in most countries, especially the US
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gabrielchew
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:50 am

Why on Earth are out-of-State driving licenses not accepted out-of -State? Does each State issue completely differnt licences? When I was in DC in December, I used my UK driving license whenever I was IDed (which wasn't everywhere, and I still get IDed here in London sometimes (mainly in Tescos buying wine though)), and it was never a problem. After living in China for 4 years, I only ever needed my passport for ID once (when the police were hunting for unregistered foreigners...cough, ahem) - as I didn't have mine they just walked me home to get it...then straight to the police station! Luckily it only took a few hours for them to run the paperwork, and most of the time was spent re-typing what they had done with the numbers typos I had to point out.
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falstaff
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:00 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 24):
DMV (Department of Motor Vehicals) is a State agency not a federal government agency. Each of the 50 States in the United States has there own system of licensing motor vehicles and their drivers.

In Michigan it is handled by the Secretary of State's office.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:06 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 18):
Here might be your first problem. KC Power & Light District is the "go to" place for underage people who think it's cool to be overcharged and act like douchebags (oh, wait, my fiance is 28 and still loves it there...oh well, at least I hate it at Power & Light), so the bars there are usually pretty tight with ID requirements.

No kidding. I took some community college classes last summer in Kansas City, and I swear every person there frequented P&L. Couple that with the somewhat ridiculous dress code issue's they were dealing with last summer, and it's funny that urban redevelopment basically tried to shut out the people who live right around the area.


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sw733
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:08 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 34):
it's funny that urban redevelopment basically tried to shut out the people who live right around the area.

Indeed.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 34):
I took some community college classes last summer in Kansas City, and I swear every person there frequented P&L

It's to the point where I won't even go. It's stupid, it's a rip off, and it's the only place in KC where you have to pay for parking. In a city like Kansas City, I am totally against paying for parking...there is plenty of space, it's not New York or Chicago here. I just tell my fiance to go with her friends, and I wait by the phone to bail her out of jail or pick her up at the hospital  
 
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:52 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
The national ID card is not exactly popular among Americans, and that's putting it mildly.

   This was a major part of the illegal immigration debate a few years back and this idea got slaughtered pretty quick by the American people!
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Maverick623
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:42 pm

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 32):
Why on Earth are out-of-State driving licenses not accepted out-of -State?

State governments are required to give full faith and credit to other state's driver's licenses. However, private establishments may refuse any form of ID if they feel they can't verify it (i.e., they're dumb as bricks).
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dc9northwest
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:52 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
The national ID card is not exactly popular among Americans, and that's putting it mildly. Which is retarded, because the Passport card that just came out is basically the same thing.

I realize that... What I don't realize is why that is.
 
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:37 pm

 
dc9northwest
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:31 pm

Thanks aa757first, a nice read...

But I don't see how such a device would be used to track movements, for example. No one scans your driver's license into a machine at airports, just an identity check and a check to see the DL is not counterfeit. So the ID card would not be subject to such a scanning either. Plus, I don't see why it would be linked to other, more private information...

The government knows all the information on the card already... And much much more. I guess this depends on the country, but a Romanian ID card contains DOB, place of birth, place of residence, parents' names... and a "personal numeric code", part of which is the DOB as well. There's barely any information there, IMO.

Reason #1: A national ID card system would not solve the problem that is inspiring it.
Ok, I agree.

Reason #2: An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens.

I disagree. If it did, the Romanian authorities would know that I don't live where my ID card says I live... They have no idea. And Romania has a history of tracking citizens and their ideas because of communism. It can't be worse in the USA.

Reason #3: A national ID card system would require creation of a database of all Americans
False. You lose the ID card, present a birth certificate, state your address under perjury. Simple. Or are birth certificates not allowed in the US either? It must be made as to not be valuable enough to steal, like a driver's license... You lose it, yes, sure, there might be issues. You lose any papers, and there might be trouble/inconvenience. Nothing special for the ID card.
Why would this be used for employment purposes? It wouldn't, you have the social security card for that. I mean, maybe US agencies would really care about getting access to the data... But if it's for ID purposes only, what data would be there? You don't need much. You need basic data, that's all. And privacy concerns? All you need is date of birth and your parents' names. The thing is, make it be enough for ID purposes, but not valuable enough to forge/steal. That's important. It's not a passport.

Reason #4: ID cards would function as "internal passports" that monitor citizens' movements
Haha. Right. It's legal in Romania to ask for "your papers"... It happened to me once, just once... because some drunkard reported "suspicious behavior". It's your drunken fellow citizens you need to worry about, not the police... And if the Romanian authorities don't care, why would the American authorities, in a country whose society is based on civil liberties?

Reason #5:
Wait, are they claiming that "foreign-looking" Americans would be discriminated because of the card? Seriously? Were African-Americans discriminated up through the 60s because of their national ID cards? Didn't think so.
Failure to carry the ID card might have the same consequences as driving without a license, except the penalty associated with that (if there is any).

I mean, finally, I don't care one way or another, but... The reasons they give are paranoid and bullshit. Maybe they are referring to a specific type of ID card that was proposed. But not all ID cards are the same.
 
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 38):
I realize that... What I don't realize is why that is.

What are the benefits of spending a metric ton of money, in order to get a ID card which people already have? I can't think of one benefit that having a national ID card gives, which we don't already have with state issued ID cards.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

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dc9northwest
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:16 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):
What are the benefits of spending a metric ton of money, in order to get a ID card which people already have? I can't think of one benefit that having a national ID card gives, which we don't already have with state issued ID cards.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

I don't see why states should issue their own IDs, that's all. Yes, they have their own laws as well federal laws, but if you're American, why have a Kansas Driver's License as opposed to an American one? What are the advantages of that? I see none.

If you have a KS DL and move to another state, you have to change your DL. Had you had an "American" one, this would prove unnecessary. That's one example.

Again, I don't think changing it would necessarily be applicable, but I just don't understand the seeming *moral* opposition to a national ID card. Financially, sure it might not make sense... I agree that implementing a new system would cost money, and as such now is a bad time to proceed with these changes. But a financial call is to be understood. Paranoia is just paranoia...
 
sw733
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:49 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 42):

If you have a KS DL and move to another state, you have to change your DL. Had you had an "American" one, this would prove unnecessary. That's one example.

Not necessarily. If you moved, you have a new address. If you have a new address, you should need a new ID. Therefore, you would still need to get a new ID anyways.

The states are just very independent in the USA, more than most (any?) other country in the world. Above all, the momentum needed to overturn the state-centric culture in the US would be huge. That's just the way the country operates...
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:51 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 43):
Not necessarily. If you moved, you have a new address. If you have a new address, you should need a new ID. Therefore, you would still need to get a new ID anyways

Hmmm. I guess you're right here. Never mind... Bad example on my part.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:21 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):
What are the benefits of spending a metric ton of money, in order to get a ID card which people already have? I can't think of one benefit that having a national ID card gives, which we don't already have with state issued ID cards.

Maybe you didn't read the thread ? Several people stated that their state ID was a problem out of state. And it wouldn't really cost a ton of money, it would just replace the state ID, you would still get it at the same place from the same people.

I also read that a national ID would be bad because it would be required to vote. So now you can vote without ID ?

I fear in some places people are voting several times, or dead people are voting, just like we have here in Corsica.
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Maverick623
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:49 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 40):
Failure to carry the ID card might have the same consequences as driving without a license, except the penalty associated with that (if there is any).

Completely different things. I can choose whether or not I want to drive a car. I can't exactly choose whether or not I want to be an American citizen from day to day.

Besides, every single law in the US that required people to carry ID at all times has been struck down. There are other ways to ID people.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):
Several people stated that their state ID was a problem out of state

Only with private businesses and low level idiot city clerks who probably couldn't verify a national ID card anyways. I don't think anyone has had a huge issue with out-of-state IDs.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):
And it wouldn't really cost a ton of money

You seriously underestimate the spending abilities of our government.
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JRadier
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:27 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 43):
Not necessarily. If you moved, you have a new address. If you have a new address, you should need a new ID. Therefore, you would still need to get a new ID anyways.

The big question with that is why? Here in the netherlands your adress isn't on your ID-card, passport or driverslicense. I moved twice and both times the only thing I had to do was go online to the site of my new municipality and declare that I was living with them. They then automatically updated my data in the system and let my old municipality know that I wasn't living there anymore.

It can all be sooo easy!
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sw733
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:39 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 47):

The big question with that is why? Here in the netherlands your adress isn't on your ID-card, passport or driverslicense. I moved twice and both times the only thing I had to do was go online to the site of my new municipality and declare that I was living with them. They then automatically updated my data in the system and let my old municipality know that I wasn't living there anymore.

Well that's kind of what happens here, at least in Kansas where I live. If I move, the first thing I do is go online and let them know. Then, if I want, I can get a new drivers license, usually for a few $$, that has my new address on it...I did this last year when I bought a house. However, if your address is on your ID, it really should be the correct address.

Why? That's just the way things are in the USA. It may or may not be better than The Netherlands (or Namibia where I lived before/grew up, or anywhere), but it's just different. Things are tough to change...just like it would be tough to convince people where you are to get different drivers licenses for Groningen, Flevoland, Overijssel, etc. it would be difficult in the USA to convince people to get national IDs.

Personally, I am all for it...then again, it is nothing new to me being from another country.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Passport And Visa To Enter A Nightclub?

Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:38 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):

Maybe you didn't read the thread ? Several people stated that their state ID was a problem out of state. And it wouldn't really cost a ton of money, it would just replace the state ID, you would still get it at the same place from the same people.

How would it not cost a ton of money? You can't replace state ID, without making a federal driver's license. I can't imagine the incredible amounts of political BS that would go on with that process. Take a look at the driving laws from state to state, and you'll see they vary drastically. Heck, there are places you can't get an unrestricted license until your 18, and yet there are places that you can get one as young as 14/15.

The only thing that might make sense to me would be a standard that all state ID's have to meet. Might be in the form of dictating where different things are physically located. But no way in heck would a federal ID/Driver's license ever work.

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