ATTart
Topic Author
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:31 pm

Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:23 am

Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
N867DA
Posts: 927
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:22 am

Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage. It makes no sense for six or seven states in one country to legalize marriage.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19631
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:51 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage. It makes no sense for six or seven states in one country to legalize marriage.

The Federal Government can't grow a pair and build a decent ATC system. There's a lot that the Federal Government can't do, so why should they do this?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:51 am

Quoting ATTart (Thread starter):
Wow, it is about time!!!!!!!!!

Amen - can't agree more!
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Ga

Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
The Federal Government can't grow a pair and build a decent ATC system. There's a lot that the Federal Government can't do, so why should they do this?

No kidding. China is building 16,000 miles of high speed rail and will have much of it up and running within 5 years. The US federal government couldn't even get to the final blueprint stage and zoning hearings within 5 years.

But credit where credit is due to President Obama and making life a little easier for gay people in times of crisis.

[Edited 2010-04-16 01:10:26]
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:10 am

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 4):
No kidding. China is building 16,000 miles of high speed rail and will have much of it up and running within 5 years. The US federal government couldn't even get to the final blueprint stage and zoning hearings within 5 years.

It doesn't help that the US is basically paying for, well, everything.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
The Federal Government can't grow a pair and build a decent ATC system. There's a lot that the Federal Government can't do, so why should they do this?

I'm pretty sure Doc knows this, but you should know that the Feds don't regulate marriage. It's a state issue.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:52 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 4):
China is building 16,000 miles of high speed rail and will have much of it up and running within 5 years. The US federal government couldn't even get to the final blueprint stage and zoning hearings within 5 years.

And even if we could, it would be China that we'd be paying to design and build the thing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:54 pm

Well I am not one for conspiracy theories, but I was thinking about this. I know a few fiscally conservative gays who would probably vote Republican if it weren't for, you know, the whole gay rights issue. Do you think they are trying to give rights piece by piece to have many voters keep coming back for more?

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage.

  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:13 pm

Increasingly, I think there's only two equitable solutions to resolve the current discriminatory practices:

1) A federal statute recognizing gay marriage, and requiring all states to recognize all marriages from other states. On a Federal basis, all marriages would be created equal.

or

2) Remove all legal benefits that come with marriage. Marriage is essentially a religious contract, recognized by the state, that provides certain benefits such as preferential tax treatment, visitation rights, inheritance rights, and many other benefits. If these benefits are going to be denied to homosexuals because they are only available for married couples (which in most places cannot be homosexual), then I do not believe these religious unions should be given any legal standing or preference. Under this plan, each person could chose one and only one person who would receive all of these benefits. This could be their husband, wife, partner, friend, whatever. But one and only one.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
I'm pretty sure Doc knows this, but you should know that the Feds don't regulate marriage. It's a state issue.

They don't regulate it but they promote heterosexual marriage by conferring more than 1,000 unique rights to straight couples. It's a legal abomination.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 8):
1) A federal statute recognizing gay marriage, and requiring all states to recognize all marriages from other states. On a Federal basis, all marriages would be created equal.

There would be major Constitutional issues with that.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 8):
If these benefits are going to be denied to homosexuals because they are only available for married couples (which in most places cannot be homosexual), then I do not believe these religious unions should be given any legal standing or preference.

Marriage contracts have separate legal and religious distinction in US jurisdictions. You can walk into a church and get married but you still have to go to city hall and sign the paperwork.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 20991
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:17 pm

About time and a very important move.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:31 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage

When has the government ever done anything whole-hog? It's always baby steps, and 1 baby step forward, 2 back.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I know a few fiscally conservative gays who would probably vote Republican if it weren't for, you know, the whole gay rights issue.

Since my sexuality is a small part of my life, I generally vote for what's best for my entire being, rather than just one small aspect, but a party that did not discriminate against gays--against all rational thought--and was equally rational about spending would be a godsend. I'm still more worried about impending economic doom than I am optimistic about getting marriage equality, so I tend to vote with the former in mind.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19631
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:53 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
And even if we could, it would be China that we'd be paying to design and build the thing.

No. I believe that China is using Alstom, although it might be Seimens. I don't think it's Shinkansen. Either way, there are no HSR builders in the U.S. Rail is a European and Asian industry.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:38 pm

Quoting ATTart (Thread starter):
Wow, it is about time!!!!!!!!!

What was stopping them from obtaining POA's and living wills previous to this?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:44 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 4):
No kidding. China is building 16,000 miles of high speed rail and will have much of it up and running within 5 years. The US federal government couldn't even get to the final blueprint stage and zoning hearings within 5 years.

It doesn't help that the US is basically paying for, well, everything.

The US sold its debt to the highest bidder. China bought it. Several Trillion dollars worth. Also, American consumers appetite for cheap products poured trillions into the coffers of Chinese sweatshops and startups. How is any of this a critique of China?

Now they are spending their nest egg wisely. The US could learn a great deal...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:46 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 13):
What was stopping them from obtaining POA's and living wills previous to

Wow, the voice of compassion! Money, for one thing. I cannot tell you how many thousands of dollars my partner and I have spent working with lawyers to establish power of attorney, health care proxy and to protect our assets because we cannot marry.

And by the way, having a health care proxy or power of attorney papers in your hand will not allow you immediate access to the hospital room of your gay partner. You have to take those papers to court first and get an order. I know because I've been there. So, if your partner is gravely ill, you may have to wait until the next day to see him. Many gay couples have lost partners and were unable to see them because of this very issue.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:10 pm

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 15):
Wow, the voice of compassion! Money, for one thing. I cannot tell you how many thousands of dollars my partner and I have spent working with lawyers to establish power of attorney, health care proxy and to protect our assets because we cannot marry.

So for you, love has a price? What's the top out? BTW, I had to do the samething with my parents. We had an attorney establish a POA, a trust, and a liiving will. It all costs a pretty penny but I didn't bitch because in the end it was worth the price for the protection.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 15):
And by the way, having a health care proxy or power of attorney papers in your hand will not allow you immediate access to the hospital room of your gay partner. You have to take those papers to court first and get an order. I know because I've been there. So, if your partner is gravely ill, you may have to wait until the next day to see him. Many gay couples have lost partners and were unable to see them because of this very issue.

Niether will being a family member if the medical personnel are doing their job trying to save someones life. If you're partner was gravely ill, and had been for sometime I would think that would have been worked out beforehand. If it was something that came on suddenly and was over quickly, as this case seems to present itself, I'll bet there are just as many straight couples that were not able to hold someones hand either.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:22 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
So for you, love has a price?

Oh please. How manipulative can an argument get?

Just in case you really don't understand: why should I have to pay for something heterosexual couples have for next to nothing by signing a marriage contract?

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
...I'll bet there are just as many straight couples that were not able to hold someones hand either.

That is not what I'm talking about. I can stand before a doctor or hospital administrator with a health care proxy in hand and they will refuse it until I have produced a court order. They will only allow spouse or, in the event of no spouse, next of kin without an obtained court order. This has all too commonly been reported. And as I said in my earlier posting it has happened to me.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:40 pm

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 17):
Just in case you really don't understand: why should I have to pay for something heterosexual couples have for next to nothing by signing a marriage contract?

I didn't sign a marriage contract, I signed a marriage license, issued by the State, of which the people of the State said was legal and proper. When you can convince enough people that gay marriage is of the same standing, then your argument will be valid and the State will change the law. Several States have done this, others have voted it down. It is not the same a slavery so please don't go there. It is not the same a man and woman of differing skin colors wanting to marry please don't go there.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 17):
That is not what I'm talking about. I can stand before a doctor or hospital administrator with a health care proxy in hand and they will refuse it until I have produced a court order. They will only allow spouse or, in the event of no spouse, next of kin without an obtained court order. This has all too commonly been reported. And as I said in my earlier posting it has happened to me.

Then you have a right to sue. It does not change the fact that if the illness was long term you being in the room should have been worked out long before hand. If it was something sudden then there are plenty of examples of a hetrosexual spouse not being in the room when the person passed due to a variety of reasons. Compassion has little to do with this and I think it is rather strange that when it is a legal issue some will not look at it any other way and yet when their legal argument falls apart all of the sudden it becomes a "compassion" issue.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:46 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
When you can convince enough people that gay marriage is of the same standing, then your argument will be valid and the State will change the law. Several States have done this, others have voted it down. It is not the same a slavery so please don't go there. It is not the same a man and woman of differing skin colors wanting to marry please don't go there.

But it is second-class citizenry and it's wrong. Why should your relationship be more valid than MBM's? It's hogwash in a society that values freedom and fairness. What's wrong with using the Loving case as supporting criteria? Both race and sexual orientation are identities an honest person can't reasonably change.

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
yet when their legal argument falls apart

There's no legal argument "falling apart" where gay equality is concerned. If you can show where there is, that would certainly be helpful.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:00 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
It is not the same a man and woman of differing skin colors wanting to marry

I'm sorry.... are you suggesting that you can change your sexual orientation? Because you would be dead wrong.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
photopilot
Posts: 3063
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:22 pm

This whole thread is total BS with the "gays" trying to score political points on a false premise.

You see.... I'm single, Not married, NO family or Next of Kin. Whether I'm straight or gay has absolutely no merit when I needed to arrange hospital access for those close to me.

Sure it sucks, but I had to arrange a Living Will, POA, and have pre-signed access documents acceptable to the hospital, SPECIFICALLY NAMING those to of my friends (one male, one female) who were to be granted FULL ACCESS as if they were legally family.

The gay crowd is simply taking what should be a "RIGHT OF ACCESS" issue, and trying to turn it into a "Gay" issue. Which it's NOT!!!!

nuff said.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:04 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
But it is second-class citizenry and it's wrong

I disagree. It is only second class if they want to make it that way. Every life decision comes with choices. If you want to live the gay lifestyle then there are States that support that. Go live there. If you don't want to do that then convinvce a majority of people in the State you do live in to change the rules. That's how a represenative democracy works. Don't give me the slave crap, it ended 140 years ago and no one would tolerate that today.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
Why should your relationship be more valid than MBM's?

My relationshiop shouldn't be any more valid than MBM's but I don't need the State to validate it anymore than he does. The legal avenues exist for him to have the same rights with his partner as I do my wife. If the President was serious why did he not grant them the same tax status that my wife and I enjoy? That could also be done fairly easy but no one in power brings that one up.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
It's hogwash in a society that values freedom and fairness.

Freedom yes, fairness? I would disagree with you on that one any number of points. If it were fair no one would be hungry or homeless. Fair is what you make of it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
What's wrong with using the Loving case as supporting criteria? Both race and sexual orientation are identities an honest person can't reasonably change.

I can tell black from white, how do you tell gay from straight??? This ought to be good. On top of that, there is more that goes into a marriage than sex. We've discussed this before I don't intend to cover the real estate again.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
There's no legal argument "falling apart" where gay equality is concerned. If you can show where there is, that would certainly be helpful.

Sure there is. My wife and I had to pay out significant cash to get a will. As we get older we wil have to pay out again to get that changed into a trust, have one of our daughters listed with a POA in case we both become incapacitated, and we will have to pay to have a living will so that our wishes will be honored in case we are again incapaciated. That differs from what gays have to do today how? So their legal argument that they are denied access to their partners hospital room is just worthless. Once those things are in hand if a hospital denies them access then the hospital is legally wrong.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
I'm sorry.... are you suggesting that you can change your sexual orientation? Because you would be dead wrong.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that people can hide their color? By what nature can someone determine anothers sexual orientation?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I disagree. It is only second class if they want to make it that way. Every life decision comes with choices. If you want to live the gay lifestyle then there are States that support that. Go live there. If you don't want to do that then convinvce a majority of people in the State you do live in to change the rules. That's how a represenative democracy works. Don't give me the slave crap, it ended 140 years ago and no one would tolerate that today.

Funniest post all week!!!      

This is the most hypocritical thing I've seen you ever post which says a lot. DXing you whine, complain, piss, and moan, constantly about demanding change, defeating Obama, going out to vote for Republicans to get new laws / ideas passed and yet you post this tripe about if you don't like it as is, leave?

That knife cuts both ways DXing. People are allowed to push for change, not just the anti-Obama nuts making up insane statements to get their way.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:31 am

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 23):
That knife cuts both ways DXing. People are allowed to push for change, not just the anti-Obama nuts making up insane statements to get their way.

Yep which is why I said if they want change all they have to do is convince a majority of voters in their State that they are right. But of course you ignore that part which makes your posts the most predictable.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:38 am

The affect of this order is: That any hospital or health care facility getting any Federal Medicare and/or Medicade funds must allow access to a person who is sick, especially near death, to persons who the paitient want as their closest person in life with them, not just traditional family members.

Besides the partners of GLTB persons to be allowed, it would also allow: those that don't really have any family close to them to alllow access to a live in partner, boyfriend/girlfriend; for an elderly widow/widower, a close friend of the same or opposite gender and who may know best what the patient wants done or be with them; persons in religious orders, like Roman Catholic priests and nuns, so that a fellow priest/nun who is someone of their real day to day 'family' is with them.

It will take a few months to fully process this order and its final form. Some states already have in full or part similar polices. At least with a Federal standard, no one will have to face legal discrimination and stupidity.

Part of the motive for Pres. Obama taking this action was hearing about the horrible situation where one of a Lesiban couple had an brain anuruism (sp.?) on vacation in Florida and her partner (and their children) could not be with her as she died. The President also called from Air Force One the surviving partner shortly after he signed this order with to inform her of it. This is the kind of act, that while only a tiny move to help the GLTB community is one more step toward the ideals of equality America should have. It is also the kind of act that shows the real heart of our President and while I support him.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
Every life decision comes with choices. If you want to live the gay lifestyle then there are States that support that.

If that's really your take on it, there's nothing substantial to further discuss now is there?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:10 am

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 25):
The affect of this order is: That any hospital or health care facility getting any Federal Medicare and/or Medicade funds must allow access to a person who is sick, especially near death, to persons who the paitient want as their closest person in life with them, not just traditional family members.

Which is fine and dandy. All it is is a feel good for laws that already are on the books that say that if your are the person with POA just must be consulted. If the person has living will that specifically identifies whom shall make their medical decisions if they are incapacitated then the doctor/hospital must consult that person. Marriage has little to do with that if you are single.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):


If that's really your take on it, there's nothing substantial to further discuss now is there?

Guess not. LIfe is full of choices, every single one of them comes with some sort of drawback.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:18 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
Guess not. LIfe is full of choices,

How many gays or lesbians on this forum have to say, "we did not choose to be gay," for you to actually believe that is true? I live in Oklahoma, I was born into a Southern Baptist family. Why, in God's great name, would I CHOOSE to be gay?
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:25 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
LIfe is full of choices, every single one of them comes with some sort of drawback.

Some things are not choices but whatever you want to believe is your deal dude.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
Why, in God's great name, would I CHOOSE to be gay?

Ignorance is bliss. Some people, for whatever reason, just can't get past their inability to see the nature of it. My grandparents were the same way until their daughter came out at 18. My uncle couldn't get past it for over 10 years after that but finally accepted the truth about his sister - and ended up speaking at my aunt's wedding in Hawaii that was later legally invalidated by the cruelty of an unjust decision.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:29 am

And I should follow up with DXing,

I've been through years of "Christian Therapy" to repair my "brokeness" as they called it. I'm still as gay as I was before the "therapy."

The ex-gay movement I believe is a farce. It's VERY easy to claim yourself rid of being gay. If you want to talk about choices, then yes, it's a choice whether or not to have gay SEX with someone. If you choose not to, then by NO means does it mean you aren't gay, it just means you choose not to have gay sex, you are still gay though.

But back on topic, even though I live in Oklahoma, I know MANY doctors that work in our local hospitals. All of them would probably demand that their partners be allowed to see their dying loved ones, and even their sick ones, if the person explained the situation. What happened in Florida is horrible, and thank god Obama saw enough in himself to do something about it.

[Edited 2010-04-16 19:32:15]
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19631
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:11 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 13):

What was stopping them from obtaining POA's and living wills previous to this?

Time and money.

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
It is not the same a man and woman of differing skin colors wanting to marry please don't go there.

Yes it is. Bottom line: you're wrong. We're right. And that's why we're winning.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19631
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:21 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):

How many gays or lesbians on this forum have to say, "we did not choose to be gay," for you to actually believe that is true?

A mathematically undefined number.

DXing has demonstrated on a number of occasions that he is incapable of being persuaded or having his mind changed. He once posted a known hoax as fact (I think it was Obama's forged African birth certificate) and no amount of evidence that it was a hoax would get him to back down, even after every other standard conservative poster here admitted it was a hoax.

Once he has made up his mind, no facts, reason, or argument will change that. He is not a reasonable person and he has made this quite clear by his statements and actions. He obviously has a cognitive deficit in his ability to assimilate information that is discordant with his preconceived views.

If he decided that the sky were green, he would stand under a clear blue sky and declare that it was green. Gotta admire his tenacity.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:40 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
choices
Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
choices

How does this work for you?

BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE.

Christ, can't you get that through your head?

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I can tell black from white, how do you tell gay from straight???

Please explain how that is in any way relevant to not being able to choose who you are or who you're attracted to?

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that people can hide their color? By what nature can someone determine anothers sexual orientation?

You've failed to answer my question. Explain how someone can change their orientation. Or why they should hide it.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
johnboy
Posts: 2557
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:44 am

Man i love it when the tools on this website get thrashed.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:49 am

This is a very good step forward. The vast majority of hospitals in this country bill Medicare/Medicaid at some point, so they are on the hook.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

The Federal Government can't grow a pair and build a decent ATC system.

Oh, leave that one alone. Our ATC system is at least as good, and likely better than any other in the world.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Instead of giving rights to gay couples piece by piece I think the federal government should just grow a pair and legalize gay marriage

The feds can't just do that. They would have to use the spending power.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
I'm still more worried about impending economic doom

Then stop voting for Republicans.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Either way, there are no HSR builders in the U.S.

Well, there are in Canada (Bombardier).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:38 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
It is only second class if they want to make it that way. Every life decision comes with choices. If you want to live the gay lifestyle then there are States that support that.

Nobody chooses to live the gay lifestyle. We've heard this from gay people time and time again. We've heard scientific studies state it time and time again. The evidence is pretty clear that being gay is not something anyone chooses to do.

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
On top of that, there is more that goes into a marriage than sex.

All the more reason that marriage should just be based on people who love each other, without getting into whether or not they are of the same or opposite sex.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:36 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
How many gays or lesbians on this forum have to say, "we did not choose to be gay," for you to actually believe that is true?

I have never said that anyone chose to be gay. But being gay doesn't mean that we have to change an age old definition, that being "marriage" to include same sex marriage. This idea that gay couples cannot have the same rights of visitation that married couples or families do is and has been a farce. There are, and have been, plenty of legal remedies available for years. The decison by President Obama does not add to or change one wit, those laws already in force. What part of that don't you agree is true?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
Why, in God's great name, would I CHOOSE to be gay?

Are you now saying your ashamed or regret being gay? If so why? I work with several people I know to be gay and I have a lot of respect for their opinions and ask their advice on work related matters all the time. I wouldn't hesitate to lend them a hand on any number of things if asked. That does not mean we see eye to eye on everything or that we ever will. Shame some here can't accept that without getting rude.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
Some things are not choices but whatever you want to believe is your deal dude.

I was born a white male in a country where being a white male is on the decline and there are a number of legally instituted restrictions on jobs I could have gotten. Long ago I took the ATC test and scored very high. Unfortunately, as was explained to me later, a minority that scored lower than me could have easily been placed in front of me by virtue of "points" granted for being a minority. Is that fair? Did I choose to be a white male? Did I whine about it? No on all accounts.

Life is still full of choices, I chose to be married. That means I gave up what probably could have been some wonderful relationships (and probably some really bad ones too) that I'll never know about. Get it?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 30):
I've been through years of "Christian Therapy" to repair my "brokeness" as they called it. I'm still as gay as I was before the "therapy."

You can leave the "Christian" thing at the door. As I have stated many times on this forum, I am not a practicing i.e. belonging to any one church, Christian. I like to think I live a good life in terms of the way I treat people on a one on one basis but that does not mean that I am going to reject a core principle to support someones cause. There are many people I deal with on several levels in my life. I don't agree with all their positions or all the things that they do but I learn to work with them while not giving up my core principles. Stop saying I'm wrong and say you understand my position and don't agree with it and we'll be able to move along.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 30):
What happened in Florida is horrible, and thank god Obama saw enough in himself to do something about it.

What happened in Florida was horrible but nothing that President Obama did changes what was already law.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Time and money.

   All those are there to protect your assets as well as your right to have whom you wish to decide personal decisions for you in times of crisis. My wife and I had our will done within 3 months of our wedding. It's been changed every time there is a life changing event such as children being born. This couple was together for 17 years. You are telling me in all that time they couldn't sit down with a lawyer and get a POA and living will put together? Especially when given their relationship they should have known how important those documents might become?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
DXing has demonstrated on a number of occasions that he is incapable of being persuaded or having his mind changed.

Gee, I'm sorry that I have core beliefs that don't agree with yours.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
He once posted a known hoax as fact

You're free to post a link to that thread or retract the statement.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Gotta admire his tenacity.

Gee whiz, is that the silver lining I'm supposed to look for?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
Please explain how that is in any way relevant to not being able to choose who you are or who you're attracted to?

In the Loving case it was a man and a woman that wanted to be married. Skin color was the thing keeping it from happening. It was not a case of same sex attraction in other words race does not equal sexual attraction.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
You've failed to answer my question. Explain how someone can change their orientation. Or why they should hide it.

I've not stated that anyone should change their sexual orientation. Nor should anyone hide their sexual orientation. But my belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman plain and simple. That doesn't agree with your belief yet you expect me to accept your belief and somehow be happy with myself about doing that. If given a vote, I'll vote against it. If the vote passes I'll abide by the law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Nobody chooses to live the gay lifestyle.

Well I would disagee with that but that's another thread.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
All the more reason that marriage should just be based on people who love each other, without getting into whether or not they are of the same or opposite sex

Marriage is more complex than love. How many people have gotten married because they are "in love" only to end up divorced a year or less later?

All this has little if anything to do with visitation rights. As I said in my first post, all the legal remedies necessary to keep this sort of thing from happening are already law. This ruling is nothing more than a way for President Obama to tell his gay supporters "See I did something for you!" as he did with Bart Stupack and his supporters. That what he did was put a wax shine on laws already on the books evidently means little to those on this forum.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:03 pm

(*disclaimer, I'm against gay marriage, so let that be known up front*)

Well,
if you ask me, for those pushing for Gay Marriage, this is a step in the wrong direction. Not that, in itself, it's a bad idea to give gay people visitation rights. No, no. That is the correct decision and should have been allowed long ago. I personally think that if you are of legal age (18 or over), you should be able to make by written or verbal declaration your intentions of rights to you're own privacy, so good job here President Obama.

However, as I said, this is going to hurt the future of Gay Marriage, not strengthen it. Why, you ask? Every time this debate comes up, there are always three items the pro-gay side always, always pushes. (1) They don't have visitation rights. (2) They don't get family health care benefits. (3) They don't get the marriage tax break.

Let's now break that down. I listed them in order of what I think is important. I would hope visitation/choice of critical health care choice is most important. Then insurance, then taxes. But thats just my view.

(1) is now out of the way. (2) doesn't matter once Obama's healthcare plan kicks in in 2014 (or whenever).

Take these two out of the equation, and that leaves the Tax benefit. And don't think for one second any Democrat will allow gay marriage based on the result of more people paying less taxes. It's not going to happen.
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:48 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 38):
Every time this debate comes up, there are always three items the pro-gay side always, always pushes. (1) They don't have visitation rights. (2) They don't get family health care benefits. (3) They don't get the marriage tax break.

You forgot the most important one - equal rights under the law. That one's not going anywhere until gay marriage is fully legalized.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:40 pm

The "choice" and democracy issues are red herrings. Homosexuality is simply an anathema to their cultural background, religion and/or political party. It doesn't matter if it's really a choice or not, or whether these rights are gained through popular vote, the same people will be just as much against this.

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):

I've not stated that anyone should change their sexual orientation. Nor should anyone hide their sexual orientation. But my belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman plain and simple. That doesn't agree with your belief yet you expect me to accept your belief and somehow be happy with myself about doing that. If given a vote, I'll vote against it. If the vote passes I'll abide by the law.

Whether or not the state administers this bonds differently shouldn't affect your personal beliefs. My parents were first married in Vegas, but needed to have a proper marriage in a Catholic church. While the first one was sanctioned by the state, only the second one counted in the eyes of my mother, her family and supposedly the Catholic Church.

The state can administer these relationships without affecting your own. That being the case, actually wanting to negatively affect others, denying them rights to state recognition, comes off as d-baggery. You don't have to accept it personally, but why take action to block the ongoings of unrelated parties? One conclusion is that you're for some sort of fundamentalist Christian social engineering.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19631
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:56 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
Gee, I'm sorry that I have core beliefs that don't agree with yours.

No. AGM100 and Dreadnought have core beliefs that don't agree with mine. They, however, can be convinced that they are wrong when presented with facts that are discordant with their points of view.

You, on the other hand, refuse to ever admit that you could possibly be wrong, even when presented with definitive evidence. And so I see no reason to debate with you, only to inform others that you are not reasonable.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):

The state can administer these relationships without affecting your own. That being the case, actually wanting to negatively affect others, denying them rights to state recognition, comes off as d-baggery.

It's not d-baggery, it's open bigotry. Nothing less, nothing more.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:52 pm

I just find it very sad that this is even an issue in the US.

KrisYYZ
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:01 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
Long ago I took the ATC test and scored very high. Unfortunately, as was explained to me later, a minority that scored lower than me could have easily been placed in front of me by virtue of "points" granted for being a minority. Is that fair? Did I choose to be a white male? Did I whine about it? No on all accounts.

Then you made a foolish decision in my view. What happened to you is patently wrong, is discrimination in its own right, and is, like special rights for heterosexual married persons, a legal abomination. If a job like ATC requires the best people, that's who should be hired, period. Not a difficult legal argument to make - I'd have found a few people with similar experiences and sued the federal government for whatever we could get to effect policy change. Stuff like that goes to the USSC and changes things forever. It's called being an active citizen and standing up for what's right before the law.

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):

Life is still full of choices, I chose to be married. That means I gave up what probably could have been some wonderful relationships (and probably some really bad ones too) that I'll never know about.

That has no logical relation to the issue of homosexual marriage whatsoever and totally invalidates your argument. Trying to win some logical fallacy contest?

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
That does not mean we see eye to eye on everything or that we ever will. Shame some here can't accept that without getting rude.

It's not exactly rude, but there's something that smells funny about claiming you respect a person but not accepting who they actually are. Bizarre in my book. Unless I have a genuine reason for disliking someone, I'd never comment or pass judgment on who they were or what their background was.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
You don't have to accept it personally, but why take action to block the ongoings of unrelated parties?

Because people of like minds do not understand the "live and let live" mentality that fundamentally defines American liberty. I don't like the color of my neighbor's house - doesn't mean I get to change it.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 42):
I just find it very sad that this is even an issue in the US.

You and me both. We're better than this - miles better.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:06 pm

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 42):

  

Since when can the government restrict visitation rights? Shouldn't it be up to the individual in the hospital bed?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:54 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
Whether or not the state administers this bonds differently shouldn't affect your personal beliefs.

But since, with my vote, I am a small part of the "State" it does.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
The state can administer these relationships without affecting your own.

Again though, since I am a part of the "State" through my vote, what the State does does affect me. Certain areas of this State, and other southern States, are dry (no alcohol) by the vote of the electorate. I'm sure there are people there that would like to be able to buy alcohol but they can't. The same rule applies.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
You don't have to accept it personally, but why take action to block the ongoings of unrelated parties?

As I said if I am allowed to vote I will vote no. If the law passes, the I will abide by the law and respect their marriage.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
One conclusion is that you're for some sort of fundamentalist Christian social engineering.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
And so I see no reason to debate with you, only to inform others that you are not reasonable.

And to spread misinformation about me. Find that thread yet? Perhaps you could join forces with Molten Rock, he too is looking for something he is not sure exists.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
Not a difficult legal argument to make

Yes it would be as affirmative action has been upheld in the courts numerous times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
It's called being an active citizen and standing up for what's right before the law.

What's "right" is an opinion.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
That has no logical relation to the issue of homosexual marriage whatsoever and totally invalidates your argument.

No it does not as gay couple can choose to live together in a monogamous relationship. This thread is not about gay marriage nor should it be as marriage is not needed to obtain all the legal documents necessary to protect their assets and publicly claim, through those legal documents that hold the force of law, who has the legal right to decide medical issues and treatments for each other if one becomes incapacitated. Do you agree or not that much is true?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
It's not exactly rude, but there's something that smells funny about claiming you respect a person but not accepting who they actually are.

Where and when I did I ever say I did not accept some one for who they are?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
I don't like the color of my neighbor's house - doesn't mean I get to change it.

If you live in a neighborhood with deed restrictions it does.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 44):
Since when can the government restrict visitation rights? Shouldn't it be up to the individual in the hospital bed?

Correct, and it is as long as the proper legal documents are prepared beforehand. This ruling puts a wax shine on laws already on the books. Notice nobody challenges me on that other than to say what if they don't have the time or money which in this couples case does not hold water since they were together for 17 years.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:57 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 45):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
And so I see no reason to debate with you, only to inform others that you are not reasonable.

And to spread misinformation about me. Find that thread yet? Perhaps you could join forces with Molten Rock, he too is looking for something he is not sure exists.

It is perfectly acceptable to have an opinion about someone else.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7497
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:16 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Marriage contracts have separate legal and religious distinction in US jurisdictions. You can walk into a church and get married but you still have to go to city hall and sign the paperwork.

But marriage is still a religious concept.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:19 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 46):
It is perfectly acceptable to have an opinion about someone else.

Sure it is. But when you say:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
He once posted a known hoax as fact (I think it was Obama's forged African birth certificate) and no amount of evidence that it was a hoax would get him to back down, even after every other standard conservative poster here admitted it was a hoax.

with no authentication to back it up, that is not an opinion, that is a statement and an untrue one at that. I have never started a thread about the birthers, and I have consistently claimed they are not only wrong but a bunch of idiots.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Obama Orders Hospital Visitation Rights For Gays,

Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:21 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 48):

Quoting cws818 (Reply 46):
It is perfectly acceptable to have an opinion about someone else.

Sure it is.

DocLightning's central charge was that you do not seem to ever admit to being anything other than entirely correct. From what I have read in my time here, the charge seems to have merit. I wish it didn't. Everyone is right some of the time. The only people who are never wrong are hermits.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests