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alberchico
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Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/20/arizona.immigration/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36652557/ns/us_news-security/

So basically every time a Hispanic person in Arizona is stopped by law enforcement they might be asked to prove their citizenship ?

So what if a person doesn't have papers on them proving their legal residence ? Would they suffer the humiliation of being taken into custody until their residence status can be proven ?
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NIKV69
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:30 am

I almost vomited watching Ed Schultz and Al Sharpton discuss this. I want Ed to buy a house on the border in AZ and see how long he lasts. This bill needs to be signed and police need to regain control of their border and state. Who gives a rat's ass if it's racial profiling? If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico. If Mexico can get their criminals under control we wouldn't have to do this. The Gov better sign this thing.
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Doona
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:37 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico

So why not let everybody, regardless of race, subject to this as well? I'm sure there are white people living in Mexico, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that some of them would enter the US illegally?

Cheers
Mats
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asuflyer05
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:38 am

Border enforcement is the responsibility of the federal government, not local municipalities. As an Arizona resident, I agree that we need to do more to stop the flow of illegal immigrants and empower police departments to involve ICE agents when other crimes are believed to have taken place.

It's like having a leaky roof and trying to stop it by throwing a towel on the floor under the drip. It will help pick up some of the water but until you fix your roof there will be no long term change.
 
flanker
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
I almost vomited watching Ed Schultz and Al Sharpton discuss this. I want Ed to buy a house on the border in AZ and see how long he lasts. This bill needs to be signed and police need to regain control of their border and state. Who gives a rat's ass if it's racial profiling? If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico. If Mexico can get their criminals under control we wouldn't have to do this. The Gov better sign this thing.

Absolutely agree with you.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:47 am

No I don't think so.

First this should not be viewed or made or made as Hispanic issue. Yes obviously majority of illegal aliens in Arizona are Hispanic, but the law would be applicable to any group including other illegal communities such as Asians.

Ultimately, the issue is a greater one. Just like how the police today enforce a host of Federal laws such as guns, drugs and alcohol, or other criminal activity, this is simply just another illegal offense which the police must help enforce.

I am all for comprehensive immigration policy review in the US, however we can't start the debate in my view without strong established enforcement component. Simply put, break a US law, expect consequences.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
NIKV69
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:50 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
So why not let everybody, regardless of race, subject to this as well?

Do you have any understanding of what is happening? The people killing are not white. They are Mexican. Mexico has shown us they can't control the drug lords and this lawlessness is spilling into this country. Time to take drastic measures. Sorry if you don't like it but that poor bastard didn't stand much of a chance did he? I take my hat off to AZ and just pray their Gov doesn't cave into the MSNBC scare mongering that it's taking your rights away. Like I said if you are here legally and you get pulled over give your ID to the officer and your fine if not then back you go. I am the product of immigration but my father's father came here LEGALLY.
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sr117
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:00 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Mexico has shown us they can't control the drug lords and this lawlessness is spilling into this country.

The most powerful nation on earth has shown us that they cannot control the amount and kinds of substances snorted by their citizens(and those snorters are therefore criminals). How can you fathom that a nation with a weak judicial system such as Mexico can get their criminals under control??

In any case, the US cannot complain that Mexico is a mess because the US pretty much set the borders about 150 years ago and they knew what they were getting into   You didn't think all that land was gonna be so cheap did you ? Everything comes with strings attached.

That said, the police have every right to verify the legal status of every citizen, and if you're there illegally, you can expect to get sent out without any rights, rightfully so I would think ! As long as there is a reasonable time frame for people to prove lawful permanence I don't really see a problem.

Cheers
Ricardo
 
NIKV69
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:12 am

Quoting SR117 (Reply 7):
The most powerful nation on earth has shown us that they cannot control the amount and kinds of substances snorted by their citizens(and those snorters are therefore criminals). How can you fathom that a nation with a weak judicial system such as Mexico can get their criminals under control??

Why would we? I am for legalizing it all, still doesn't change the fact your country is run by drug lords and now they want to kill innocent Americans. No buddy, it's time we stopped caving in to the immigration crap. If your in America illegally you should be deported which is why this law came about. Don't try to blame us for your failures.
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aa757first
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:30 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
This bill needs to be signed and police need to regain control of their border and state. Who gives a rat's ass if it's racial profiling?

Well, I sure do and I'm white.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico.

"Let me see your papers."

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
If Mexico can get their criminals under control we wouldn't have to do this. The Gov better sign this thing.

Well, how about we help them do that? It would probably be a hell of a lot cheaper. Also, let's not forget reparations are a major component of Mexico's economy. The harder we make it on Mexicans residing in the United States, the worse their economy will become.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:38 am

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
Well, I sure do and I'm white.

I take it you don't live to close to the border do you?

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
"Let me see your papers."

Nice propaganda, unlike Nazi Germany we aren't going to put them in camps, just send them back if they don't belong here.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
Well, how about we help them do that? It would probably be a hell of a lot cheaper. Also, let's not forget reparations are a major component of Mexico's economy. The harder we make it on Mexicans residing in the United States, the worse their economy will become.

What are you tallking about? If they are legal residents we aren't doing anything to them it's the ones who jump the fence. Are you saying we should just let them all in here just because their country is going to hell?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:40 am

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
The harder we make it on Mexicans residing in the United States, the worse their economy will become.

Question ----- why should we condone, look the other way, or help those that are illegally in the country?

I have zero problem with immigration, matter of fact its something we should encourage, however as my family did when it came to the US many decades ago this needs to be done in a measured and legal way.

Even as a part foreigner myself, I shake my head at the existing large apathy and opposition at enforcing one of the most basic national laws.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aa757first
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:42 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I take it you don't live to close to the border do you?

No, but I do spend half of my time in the Bay Area. Also, rights don't depend on geography.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Are you saying we should just let them all in here just because their country is going to hell?

I personally believe that if a person is not a security risk and intends to do honest work in the United States, they should be allowed in and the market should do its thing.
 
jcs17
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:43 am

Quote:
Well, how about we help them do that? It would probably be a hell of a lot cheaper. Also, let's not forget reparations are a major component of Mexico's economy. The harder we make it on Mexicans residing in the United States, the worse their economy will become.

No.

Mexico's economy has been absolutely drained because the people who would normally work in the fields to produce fruits and vegetables have (mostly) illegally gone to Los Ustados Unidos. Instead of attacking the systemic problems of abuse, poor wages, and unfair labor, Mexico's government has done well to dump their poor and uneducated on the US. Why wouldn't they though? If you want to compare a government, Mexico's government is about as corrupt and drug-addled as South Africa. There is drug money heading to be had.
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ajd1992
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:46 am

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
So basically every time a Hispanic person in Arizona is stopped by law enforcement they might be asked to prove their citizenship ?

Living in a country with a very significant ethnic minority population - No, not really. Not all of them are legal so it's not surprising Mr. State F. Trooper wants some proof every now and then. There's bound to be some smartass thinking he can blend in as a legal alien.

It would be racist if they passed a bill that said no non-white people were allowed to enter the State of Arizona, which is not what they are doing, that would be worse than the 60's in the Deep South during segregation. Having been to Arizona myself, I know the amount of Hispanics that live there (legal and illegal) so I think what they are doing is a good thing if it's executed properly and not by cops mad with power.

But, who knows. I'm only a visitor to the US - I don't live there.
 
sr117
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
No buddy, it's time we stopped caving in to the immigration crap. If your in America illegally you should be deported which is why this law came about. Don't try to blame us for your failures.

I'm completely in agreement, if you're there illegally, you get the boot, no amnesty, no nothing. That much I am completely in agreement.

However, when it comes to Mexico-bashing and nagging:

If our country is run by drug lords its because you so clearly mentioned that you don't care to control consumption in your country. They are merely being capitalist and entrepreneurial by supplying your demand with a never ending supply. Its a two faced problem, those drug lords exist because your country demands all those mind altering drugs. It's a never ending finger pointing game and both countries have to own up to their share of the blame

This is a serious problem, and thankfully, regardless of the opinion of crazies in either of the political spectrum in both of our countries who encourage non cooperation and unilateralism, strategists and people with brains that see all sides of the problem realize that combating the monster takes unified action by all countries affected.

We may be a failure, but the US knew we were a failure way back before 1840, this wasn't a relationship based on lies   You gotta live with the neighbors you chose.
 
Flighty
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:27 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
First this should not be viewed or made or made as Hispanic issue.

I agree. But when people are feeling guilty about something illegal they are doing, their mind races as they can conceive of ways to distract them. Clever, yes? Suddenly a cop is a racist for investigating the possibility that a person is not even legally in the country. But, the cops exist for a reason. They are supposed to control illegal activity.

Since I am a legal resident in the USA, I feel perfectly OK confirming that if the police wish to ask me about it. In fact I welcome the question.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:22 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico.

Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

A more sensible solution needs to be taken at the Federal level.

Step 1) Declare amnesty. All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.
2) Any further illegal immigrants after that date will be sent back.
3) An American citizen is a child born either to one or two U.S. Citizens or born to at least one legally present alien here on a visa other than "tourist." You don't get to be a citizen because your mom sneaked across the border and walked into an Arizona ED to give birth. That makes you a Mexican and you go back.
4) Institute an indentured servitude system. Workers may come for 5-year stints during which their sponsor will see to their pay, housing, and health care. During that time they will not have children, they will not require government assistance, and they will not commit any crimes, and they will gain a working knowledge of the English language. If they violate a term of that agreement, they go back. If they make it 5 years, they may have a green card (or at least working visa) if they like.

There is a use for a carrot and a stick. We *want* hardworking Mexican families here. What we don't wait is free-loaders.
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Elite
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:22 am

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 14):
I'm only a visitor to the US - I don't live there.

Same with me, but does this mean I have to carry my passport around in case I am stopped by the police asking for my identification? I don't usually carry my passport around, but this may change...
 
TheCol
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:46 am

Quoting SR117 (Reply 7):
That said, the police have every right to verify the legal status of every citizen

Only if there is a cause for suspicion.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

Yeah, that got me scratching my head too. Sounds a lot like "tagging" a portion of the population.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
flanker
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Step 1) Declare amnesty. All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.

F**k that, I had to wait 6 years and did it legally.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:40 am

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
This bill needs to be signed and police need to regain control of their border and state. Who gives a rat's ass if it's racial profiling?

Well, I sure do and I'm white.

I'm 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Puerto Rican, so believe me, living in Arizona I can be (and have been) mistaken for someone of Mexican descent.

And I don't care if it appears to be racial profiling. I'll gladly answer a LEOs questions regarding my citizenship if he or she should ask.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 9):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
If you have proof your a citizen your sent on your way if not then you get your ass sent back to Mexico.

"Let me see your papers."

  

Sorry, but that's not quite how it would go. I have many friends in law enforcement here - one is even an ICE agent - and they're all in agreement that they wouldn't be stopping people just based on their appearance. It would be a number of 'reasonable suspicion' factors, such as those who don't speak or understand English AND also lack car insurance when being stopped for a traffic violation, etc.

It's not going to be some Gestapo-like "PAPERS! PAPERS PLEASE!" police state like some of the pro-illegal folks like to paint...   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Step 1) Declare amnesty. All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.

  

Horrible idea. All this would do is encourage another huge influx of illegal immigrants drawn by the prospect of amnesty, as occurred in 1986.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
2) Any further illegal immigrants after that date will be sent back.

Oh yeah? How's that workin' out for us so far? Again, there's no point in declaring amnesty for all here as of X date, as it will encourage more to come illegally - not to mention making the U.S. look like they can't or aren't willing to enforce their own laws.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
3) An American citizen is a child born either to one or two U.S. Citizens or born to at least one legally present alien here on a visa other than "tourist." You don't get to be a citizen because your mom sneaked across the border and walked into an Arizona ED to give birth. That makes you a Mexican and you go back

This I agree with. The "anchor baby" issue is a very real one. Wouldn't this require a Constitutional amendment, though? If so, look for the typical pro-illegal crowd to label such an amendment as "racist."   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
We *want* hardworking Mexican families here.

I agree wholeheartedly - provided they come here legally.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ltbewr
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:59 am

For too many years, the Federal enforcement of immigration laws, especially as to Mexico, were poorly enforced. Too many wanted cheap labor, workers who could be virturally enslaved at low wages doing dangerous and backbreaking work for long hours, working under the fear of being turned over to Immigation authorities. With the recent declines in the economy in the USA, the costs to governments and taxpayers for justice, education, social and medical services of illegals here and the many economic and social problems in Mexico (including the terrible rise of USA drug demand terrorism), has caused a huge demand those here illegally be rounded up and sent back.

The citizens of Arizona and politicans looking for votes have turned to creating laws that possibly violate the USA Constitution and maybe even international agreements as to human rights. 2 years ago, Arizona put in laws to go after companies who hire illegals, including the termination of business licenses. Problem is that enforcement of those laws is weak and only a few companies have seen enforcement.

These new laws can also cause a huge jam up of the justice system, jails, potential violent conflicts and may not help the situation at all. There can be further problems as those here illegally will not report crimes against them or witnesses to crimes or in need of social services (like child protection) out of fear of being deported. We also all know that far too often in the past if you expand and encourage what local police can do, they will run with it. We have also seen the the problems of DWB 'Driving While Black' as police officers would target darker skinned people looking for that big drug or crime bust to help them get promotions or cash bonues for themselves, ignoring white drivers with legitment cause to pull over (in a car) or otherwise investigate.

I expect these new laws, unless vetoded by the Governor, if they become law will be promptly challanged in Federal Courts all the way up to the US Supreme Court and declared Unconstitutional as like laws have been in the past as infringing Federal laws and jurisdictions.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:49 am

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 22):
The citizens of Arizona and politicans looking for votes have turned to creating laws that possibly violate... ...international agreements as to human rights.

Oh spare me. What human rights are being violated by deporting people who are in the U.S. illegally?

None.

That's right, none.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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AGM100
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:12 pm

In 2007 , My Ex sister in law ( German Expat) was trafic stopped and found to be here illegally. After 6 Years of legal fighting and hiding from deportation she finanly got it fixed and recieved citezenship (somehow).

So the answer is ,no it is not racists at all , but we are prepareing for the violent backlash that will beset our border soon. Get ready this is going to be wild , if Brewer signs it we are in for a real ride I am afraid.

It is the time to have this issue front and center .... a bold move was needed to get the debate going once and for all. If the republicans lose the politcal battle on it then we just go to open borders and free access for all.

The republicans have a tremendous fight on thier hands ..the federal administration in power now has already aligned the justice department against our law enforecment here in AZ. Our law enforcement here is surrounded ... enemies in Washington , and a state with powerful hispanic lobbyist who promote no enforcement and franky open borders.

Sadly , a good many americans support the illegals in this fight. A good many Americans see the US as illigitement and our borders as symbols of past oppression and unfairness.... they are now running washington.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Elite
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:21 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
In 2007
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
After 6 Years of legal

Huh? was this an ongoing battle before the stop?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:35 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Step 1) Declare amnesty. All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.

No freaking way. I've just finished paying $850 in fees and going through all of the USCIS hoops so that my wife may accompany me and our two children, already registered citizens despite being born abroad, to the US. And she's from a country we're very friendly with - it still ain't a walk in the park. Never is.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
3) An American citizen is a child born either to one or two U.S. Citizens or born to at least one legally present alien here on a visa other than "tourist." You don't get to be a citizen because your mom sneaked across the border and walked into an Arizona ED to give birth. That makes you a Mexican and you go back.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
4) Institute an indentured servitude system. Workers may come for 5-year stints during which their sponsor will see to their pay, housing, and health care. During that time they will not have children, they will not require government assistance, and they will not commit any crimes, and they will gain a working knowledge of the English language. If they violate a term of that agreement, they go back. If they make it 5 years, they may have a green card (or at least working visa) if they like.

I like the sound of that except for the possibility that lonely 40-something men will use this as an opportunity to get a for-contract wife.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AGM100
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:37 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 25):
Huh? was this an ongoing battle before the stop?

Nope she over stay her Visa and just melted into society ..... basicaly. She was a illegal alien ... and was caught. I ended up paying as I remember around $5K to help them fight the legal battle ..and she won somehow. Point is ..she was caught and was not a latino looking person.
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TransIsland
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:53 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Nice propaganda, unlike Nazi Germany we aren't going to put them in camps, just send them back if they don't belong here.

Even if I get banned for this, but that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. Are you suggesting that six million Jews entered Nazi Germany illegally, and Auschwitz was just a means of controlling the onslaught of illegal immigrants?   
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
AGM100
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:37 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
Oh spare me. What human rights are being violated by deporting people who are in the U.S. illegally?

Well this is the arguement .... but I doubt anyone can give a justification for it other than ... a vauge generality of racism and human rights violations . After all , that is all they need to say ...no defenition is required. You my freind are a racist human right violator and that is what they want you to be .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
So basically every time a Hispanic person in Arizona is stopped by law enforcement they might be asked to prove their citizenship ?

How is this any different from being pulled over by a cop on a traffic violation or every time the cops are summoned?

Every time I have dealt with cops, regardless of where I am at, I am always asked for ID. I don't see the difference.

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
So what if a person doesn't have papers on them proving their legal residence ? Would they suffer the humiliation of being taken into custody until their residence status can be proven ?

This is a gray area. I am told that you can be detained for a short time until you can prove yourself. No biggie, although a few hours at the police station might be a bit much. It is better to have your ID on you rather than having to be detained longer than you need to be. But then again, the 4th amendment rights apply.... A cop cannot just arrest you without just cause without a warrant.

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
So why not let everybody, regardless of race, subject to this as well?

See what I wrote above.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
The people killing are not white. They are Mexican.

   The #1 crime rate among illegals in the PHX area is murder between Mexican vs. Mexican. And we, the taxpayers, have to clean up their mess.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.

I hope that is not true. That would be a HUGE slap to the face of the immigrant who came to the U.S. legally, the correct way with nothing to hide.

We had a chance in 1986 to fix this problem. We chose to ignore it then and now look where we are at, present day.
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PPVRA
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:17 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
How is this any different from being pulled over by a cop on a traffic violation or every time the cops are summoned?

It's not, it's just as bad.

Your papers, please. . .

"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Derico
Posts: 4218
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:21 pm

It's a very Hammurabian doctrine, but the Americans have the right to pursue it. If you are illegal it is a choice you made. I feel really bad for the people that genuinely are no threat but life is not fair. They are in a country others spent years waiting for formal authorization to enter, so then life not being fair worked to their advantage. Sometimes it might work against you.

I personally know a friend that is illegal and he has done rather well, better than a lot lazy locals that just want the latest government handout. It would break me to see if he was ever caught, and perhaps I would defend him (yeah, I would go against what I just said), but if he ever was deported I could still understand the spirit of the law. Of course, my argument would be there are thousands of CRIMINALS that should be deported first, including members of groups like Sendero Luminoso roaming the villas, arms of gang organizations from Asuncion, Chinese mafia trafficking Bolivians, Bolivian facilitarors, on and on. Fortunately and unfortunately, the government has no interest in enforcing the law in this area.

THAT SAID. I have a provocative suggestion.

I know Mexico would never have the balls to do this (I actually wish they did to test legal waters), but what if they passed a criminal code where U.S. citizens that are ''suspected'' of consuming drugs recreationally, any drug, should be drug searched and tested and if found positive arrested and charged with sedicious acts against the Mexican state? They could be accused of being accesories to aiding an existential threat to their national integrity.

I wonder how would that be seen!
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:30 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 32):
I personally know a friend that is illegal and he has done rather well, better than a lot lazy locals that just want the latest government handout.

If your friend is capable of doing well, why does he make the choice to continue living as an illegal resident? What purpose does that serve other than undercutting other people who are waiting their turn in the visa lottery?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
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RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
First this should not be viewed or made or made as Hispanic issue.

But it will be, exclusively.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
I am for legalizing it all, still doesn't change the fact your country is run by drug lords and now they want to kill innocent Americans

Because there is a market for drugs (ie the US), drug dealers have been able to pay $200K+ for even low level drug traffickers. How can any country compete with that? The US couldn't even compete with that and we have $100K bus drivers!  Mexico is fighting one hell of a (I believe losing, pointless) fight even though US drug consumers are primarily to blame. I have to give Mexico credit for coming this far.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:32 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):

So why not let everybody, regardless of race, subject to this as well? I'm sure there are white people living in Mexico, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that some of them would enter the US illegally?
Quoting Doona (Reply 2):

So why not let everybody, regardless of race, subject to this as well? I'm sure there are white people living in Mexico, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that some of them would enter the US illegally?
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
The people killing are not white. They are Mexican. Mexico has shown us they can't control the drug lords and this lawlessness is spilling into this country. Time to take drastic measures.

Hmm, I have been living in Mexico for about 4 years, and I honestly, I have a hard time figuring out what the 'Mexican' race is.

So in the population here I have seen from blue eyed white to dark Indian looking people and everything in between, with the majority of the population being in between. I suppose that is the "hispanic" we are talking about. So this bill just takes for a fact that the only people who cross the border illegally, are those that look well....... I am sure..."hispanic." How are they supposed to look?

Mexico is a country, and being a Mexican is a nationality. Can anyone tell me what an American supposed to look like?

So just profiling Hispanic people is VERY stupid thing, as all Mexicans, though Hispanic because of culture, aren't 'Hispanic' looking. It is really a step in the wrong direction, for the US to enforce such a policy. Yes something needs to be done about illegal immigration, it really needs to stop, especially because of the drug war going on in Mexico now, we don't want that to filter over to the US. But take a page from Hitler's handbook is not the best idea.. IMHO.
There is something special about planes....
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:41 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Like I said if you are here legally and you get pulled over give your ID to the officer and your fine if not then back you go. I am the product of immigration but my father's father came here LEGALLY.

Stop being Naive. I support anti illegal immigration, but you gotta ask yourself, if we continue to do this, where does the racial profiling end? If we continue down this road, in ten years, all Mexicans and people of latino origin will be automatically stopped in public and checked for I.D's. What are they gonna do, put cops in shopping malls and just yank people out of line and check I.D.'s? That is egregious

Check this quote out:

Quote:
The bill would require immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and require police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally.

Reason to suspect? This is just gonna open the floodgates for discrimination against latinos. Newsflash America, latinos aren't the only people in this country illegally.

P.S. By the way, if you find them and throw them out, they'll just find a way to make it back in again. We'll spend billions of dollars through this new immigration bill, just to watch the illegals witch hunted, caught and thrown out, only to return the next week.

Yea, it's a great plan  
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
It's not going to be some Gestapo-like "PAPERS! PAPERS PLEASE!" police state like some of the pro-illegal folks like to paint...

I'm afraid that this exactly what would happen.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:43 pm

Quoting captaink (Reply 35):
So just profiling Hispanic people is VERY stupid thing, as all Mexicans, though Hispanic because of culture, aren't 'Hispanic' looking.

Of course, this is not the official policy adopted by the state of Arizona or the United States; they are targeting "illegal immigrants" and "day laborers", as stated in the CNN article. It is up to the police department to determine suspicious illegal immigrants.

Quoting captaink (Reply 35):
Yes something needs to be done about illegal immigration, it really needs to stop

In my opinion, one of the first things that should be done is just start protecting the border. Stop the flow of people into the USA; after that is secure, then the American government can focus on deporting people and whatnot. But the source must first be cut.

Quoting captaink (Reply 35):
But take a page from Hitler's handbook is not the best idea.. IMHO.

It's not taking a page from Hitler's handbook... since when is checking the identity of a potential illegal immigrant Hitler-like?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
a vauge generality of racism and human rights violations

It's not racism - it just so happens that many illegal immigrants are Mexican. If the US started cracking down on street gangs and drug dealers in New York, and they happen to be black, does that make it racist? No... it's just how things are. You're not going to be deported if you are a Mexican who legally entered the United States.
 
D L X
Posts: 11696
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:45 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Who gives a rat's ass if it's racial profiling?

I now know all I ever will need to know about you.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
The people killing are not white. They are Mexican.

And nearly all the Mexicans living in Arizona are not illegal.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

 
Remember the National ID card debate in the early 2000s? Remember which party scuttled that idea?

Wow how times have changed.

[Edited 2010-04-23 16:21:28 by srbmod]
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:53 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 37):

In my opinion, one of the first things that should be done is just start protecting the border. Stop the flow of people into the USA; after that is secure, then the American government can focus on deporting people and whatnot. But the source must first be cut.
Quoting Elite (Reply 37):
t's not taking a page from Hitler's handbook... since when is checking the identity of a potential illegal immigrant Hitler-like?

I agree, the problem needs to be cut at the bud, the borders need to better protected.

We normal citizens think Mexicans look one way. I know I did before coming here. But you don't expect a modern government to enact a policy based on such an erroneous way of thinking. It is simply not the way to go about things, Only stopping Hispanic looking people to verify nationality or immigration status, when the target group is a particular nationality and not race. Come on, this is 2010.

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

I think that is a good idea. I see down here everyone has an IFE card which is basically a nationality card, that is used for everything from bank transactions to entering a club, and has much more power than a driver's license.
There is something special about planes....
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 36):
Yea, it's a great plan

Is there a better plan? Many people say we are giving up liberty for the name of security... but tell me, where is the job security when illegals take the Americans jobs? Where is the security when we try to go through extensive screening to get on a plane while thousands of people walk into the country undocumented. And how about the security for people like Rob Krentz and their family?
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 20466
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:17 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.
Quoting Elite (Reply 18):
Same with me, but does this mean I have to carry my passport around in case I am stopped by the police asking for my identification? I don't usually carry my passport around, but this may change..
Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
Remember the National ID card debate in the early 2000s? Remember which party scuttled that idea?

Proof of proper immigration status is already legally required by authorized aliens.
If you are on a green card, on temporary visas, you are required to be able to demonstrate proof of lawful immigration status. So yes they should be carrying their green cards, or other documentation.

Not being able to demonstrate your legal right to be in the US can subject you to detainment and would be no different under the Arizona law. Here in SoCal ICE has raided businesses of late, and employees that can demonstrate proof are let go immediately, while those that cant are held till their status can be verified. Seems reasonable.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
If your friend is capable of doing well, why does he make the choice to continue living as an illegal resident? What purpose does that serve other than undercutting other people who are waiting their turn in the visa lottery?

I was lucky with my Visa process (probably because of my background) but in general I hear it is a costly, endless legal nightmare. I'm sure a lot of people would prefer to go the legal way, but the path of least resistance still points elsewhere. Not that I condone it. .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24723
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:23 pm

I have no problem with this law. An excellent idea and I hope other states follow.

And on a sidetrack, the U.S. should take steps to legalize cocaine and tax it to death. Pretty simple solution - we are never going to stop people from doing cocaine. Legalize it, regulate it and tax it. It's not the government's business what an individual chooses to snort into their nose.
a.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10908
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:24 pm

Quoting aa757first (Reply 12):
No, but I do spend half of my time in the Bay Area. Also, rights don't depend on geography

Ok then go to Iran or North Korea and jump the border. You will do fine.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 12):
I personally believe that if a person is not a security risk and intends to do honest work in the United States, they should be allowed in and the market should do its thing.

How do you know they are not a risk if they just jump the fence? I guess that guy that killed the AZ resident on the border wasn't a threat huh?

Quoting SR117 (Reply 15):
because you so clearly mentioned that you don't care to control consumption in your country. They are merely being capitalist and entrepreneurial by supplying your demand with a never ending supply. Its a two faced problem, those drug lords exist because your country demands all those mind altering drugs. It's a never ending finger pointing game and both countries have to own up to their share of the blame

Again the only reason the drug lords in your country are even revelent is because we are afraid to do the right thing and legalize all drugs. Still you country can't control the crime or the corruption or isn't willing to do so. So don't blame us for this. We are actually trying to help you by giving law enforcement a way to catch some of these people.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 15):
who encourage non cooperation and unilateralism, strategists and people with brains that see all sides of the problem realize that combating the monster takes unified action by all countries affected.

What are you talking about? We are trying to pass this law to help catch some of these criminals, what do you want us to do just sit back and let this violence get worse? Be advised that if things get any worse AZ may take more drastic action and believe me we need to.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait, a Conservative arguing that we should all have to carry "Citizen ID Cards" at all times? When you get approached by a cop and asked to prove your citizenship, will you? With what? Driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

Doc when did I say I am a conservative? Do we have to go through this every time? I support Abortion, gay rights and wouldn't be adverse to legalizing illegals if they go through the process, I am just such a conservative.   

As for citizen ID cards this is something that needs to be done in southern AZ since it has become painfully clear it's getting out of control and people are dying. So can we dispense with the propaganda?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Step 1) Declare amnesty. All illegal immigrants in this country are eligible for citizenship.

I am not adverse to this under the right circumstances but in AZ we have a drug lord murdering problem that needs to be fixed and brought under control first. Again you are confusing the issues here.

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
I now know all I ever will need to know about you.

Great, I don't care. Racial profiling is a important tool in keeping people safe. EL AL uses it to keep their people safe from getting killed and AZ can use it to keep their people safe. Like I said if you would rather cry about pulling someone over because they are hispanic and making sure they are not illegal well then I suggest you go by some land and live on the AZ Mexico border and tell me how it goes. We can't keep reciting MSNBC far left propaganda, we need to secure our border and keep people from getting killed.

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
And nearly all the Mexicans living in Arizona are not illegal.

Great then they have nothing to worry about do they?

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
Remember the National ID card debate in the early 2000s? Remember which party scuttled that idea?

I would be willing to be the drug lords and violence wasn't nearly as bad back then. Again go walk the border in AZ and tell me how it's works for you.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
I was lucky with my Visa process (probably because of my background) but in general I hear it is a costly, endless legal nightmare. I'm sure a lot of people would prefer to go the legal way, but the path of least resistance still points elsewhere. Not that I condone it. .

Well, that's the process required by the law, so they must do it. The excuse "its too costly and takes too much time" just doesn't cut it here.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
EL AL uses it to keep their people safe from getting killed and AZ can use it to keep their people safe.

Eh, El Al is an extreme example, and that level of security is not something that one would desire to be placed on his/ her country...
 
ajd1992
Posts: 2390
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:11 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:42 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 18):

Same with me, but does this mean I have to carry my passport around in case I am stopped by the police asking for my identification? I don't usually carry my passport around, but this may change...

I don't know - I mean I'm a young white guy with brown hair and brown eyes and I'm not tanned by any stretch of the imagination. I don't look Hispanic at all, I look very Northern European and you can tell I'm not American from a mile off. I've never been asked for ID in a foreign country though so I don't see what the need is in carrying a passport.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
This is a gray area. I am told that you can be detained for a short time until you can prove yourself. No biggie, although a few hours at the police station might be a bit much. It is better to have your ID on you rather than having to be detained longer than you need to be. But then again, the 4th amendment rights apply.... A cop cannot just arrest you without just cause without a warrant.

Then just pass a law requiring all citizens to carry ID - It's not that hard to do and I some countries do require it with their national ID scheme. I'm not saying you need to have a whole ID card debate, but if you had some form of ID then the problem goes away. A driving licence is ID, and most people over the age of 16 or 17 have one even if it's just a provisional (or permit or whatever you want to call them). Hell, the best one would be your SS card - you only have one if you're an American citizen, don't you?

I think this thing is being blown way out of proportion - you can't argue they're violating certain amendments and human rights when they're in the country ILLEGALLY. You cross the border - you leave your human rights at the border and you are game for arrest and deportation. It works everywhere else, I don't see what the big deal is. Either do it legally or don't do it, it's not a difficult concept to understand.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
This is a gray area. I am told that you can be detained for a short time until you can prove yourself. No biggie, although a few hours at the police station might be a bit much. It is better to have your ID on you rather than having to be detained longer than you need to be. But then again, the 4th amendment rights apply.... A cop cannot just arrest you without just cause without a warrant.
http://acluaz.org/ACLU-AZ%20Section%...20of%20SB1070updated%204-14-10.pdf

Gives police officers authority to conduct warrantless arrests of persons for whom the officer has
probable cause to believe have committed any public offense that makes those persons deportable.

As that document notes, this (and much of the bill) will likely be found unconstitutional.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
The #1 crime rate among illegals in the PHX area is murder between Mexican vs. Mexican. And we, the taxpayers, have to clean up their mess.

And you, the consumer, benefit from cheap labor for construction costs, farm working, janitorial costs, maid service, etc.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
Ok then go to Iran or North Korea and jump the border. You will do fine.

I meant within the United States, where the federal government has the responsibility to enforce immigration law.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
How do you know they are not a risk if they just jump the fence? I guess that guy that killed the AZ resident on the border wasn't a threat huh?

That's the problem with our current immigration system. Make it market based with a security check component and we'll all be safer. And richer.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:11 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 46):
I don't know - I mean I'm a young white guy with brown hair and brown eyes and I'm not tanned by any stretch of the imagination. I don't look Hispanic at all, I look very Northern European and you can tell I'm not American from a mile off. I've never been asked for ID in a foreign country though so I don't see what the need is in carrying a passport.

How can it be told that you aren't American? There are American's that fit your description, the difference being only after chatting I suppose. The same goes for Mexicans. I see ALOT of people down here who looks exactly like that and are 100% Mexican.

Who is AZ trying to profile? Hispanics on a while without consideration being given to which country they come from? Mexicans, if they look Hispanics? Mexicans regardless of their racial appearance? Why is so hard to differentiate between race and nationality.

[Edited 2010-04-21 10:26:04]
There is something special about planes....
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Is Arizona's New Immigration Bill Racist?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
They are Mexican.

They LOOK Mexican (to the untrained eye), but the vast majority of them are not. When those so-called "Mexicans" get deported back to Mexico, guess where Mexico deports them to? Belize, Guatemala, Bolivia, Honduras, San Salvador etc etc

Quoting captaink (Reply 39):
But you don't expect a modern government to enact a policy based on such an erroneous way of thinking.

Why not? Surely "experts" in the government determined that EVERYBODY south of the border is short, dark skinned and speaks a funny language  
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