futurepilot16
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South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:26 am

So according to numerous reports from South Korea, the North was involved in the sinking of their Submarine last month that killed numerous S. Korean sailors. This report is backed by the U.S.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36719272/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

Question: Is the South blowing smoke or could it actually be the truth?

If it is the truth, why in the hell would the North attack the South?

Should the South retaliate?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:37 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
If it is the truth, why in the hell would the North attack the South?

The problem is, you are trying to make sense of North Korea  
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DocLightning
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:42 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Should the South retaliate?

Oh yes. I very much hope they do. And, unlike the nonsense in Iraq, this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.
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Dreadnought
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
If it is the truth, why in the hell would the North attack the South?

The problem is, you are trying to make sense of North Korea

  
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Maverick623
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
And, unlike the nonsense in Iraq, this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.

Er..... perhaps you forgot about the DPRK's northern neighbor?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
The problem is, you are trying to make sense of North Korea

  
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zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Oh yes. I very much hope they do. And, unlike the nonsense in Iraq, this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.

57 years after the cease fire was signed you expect a decisive victory in Korea? You expect the Chinese to stand idle? I hope you're joking. Conflict in Korea would be very bloody and unlikely to change the situation substantially - best avoided.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:42 am

Sounds like speculation more than anything still. They are still in the process of resurfacing the ship. Nothing will be known for sure until after the fact. And even then...
 
TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:43 am

I have a hard time believing that an ex-soviet clunker can sneak up on modern warship, equipped with a state of the art sonar, and sink it undetected. All these media reports seem to be more speculation than anything else. If South Korea ever detected a submarine trying to make a move on em, you could bet your ass that the shit would hit the fan within minutes.
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cpd
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:45 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
the North was involved in the sinking of their Submarine last month that killed numerous S. Korean sailors. This report is backed by the U.S

No South Korean submarine was involved. However, as ship called Cheonan did sink in mysterious circumstances.

If the North were responsible, the repercussions could be serious.

[Edited 2010-04-22 18:47:20]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:08 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 6):
Sounds like speculation more than anything still. They are still in the process of resurfacing the ship. Nothing will be known for sure until after the fact. And even then...

They salvaged the ship over a week ago.

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UAL747
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:21 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 5):
57 years after the cease fire was signed you expect a decisive victory in Korea? You expect the Chinese to stand idle? I hope you're joking. Conflict in Korea would be very bloody and unlikely to change the situation substantially - best avoided.

If these two countries didn't have sphere's of influence coming from various friends, then a war to end the regime in the North would have already been fought and won.

Problem is the surrounding countries and setting off a wider conflict. However, these surrounding countries will also have to take into consideration the economic implications of choosing to support the North in such a war instead of remaining neutral or supporting the South.
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 5):
57 years after the cease fire was signed you expect a decisive victory in Korea? You expect the Chinese to stand idle? I hope you're joking. Conflict in Korea would be very bloody and unlikely to change the situation substantially - best avoided.


The Chinese government of the 1950s and 2010 are two completely different animals. The power brokers in China are the capitalists, the educated, and businesspeople, not the peasants of 1952. The Communists know this and know they will be quickly eliminated from power (with the leadership put on trial various crimes) if they put their power-brokers back into poverty. A bad step being intervening in any sort of Korean Crisis, which would immediately lead to a trade embargo from the West.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:25 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
And, unlike the nonsense in Iraq, this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.

Er..... perhaps you forgot about the DPRK's northern neighbor?

Actually, I believe the US and China have partnered with South Korea in pressuring the North and the North Korea issue is one area where the US and China stand firmly together, especially on the North's nuclear programs. If military intervention does happen, my belief is the Chinese will either stay neutral and let the US and South Korea do their thing or they may even assist in a two front operation.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:09 am

I sure hope no war breaks out. Our military has been fighting hard for almost a decade. Could the US military do the job? Yes, but many servicemen are exhausted from multiple deployments. Hopefully we can finish off Iraq and Afghanistan while avoiding the nutjobs in Iran and North Korea.
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sw733
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:41 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Question: Is the South blowing smoke or could it actually be the truth?

It could very well be the truth. It could also be the truth that there was some attack on each other and North Korea simply won.It's also possible that something completely different happened and the North is getting the blame. We only know one side of the story, and probably always will.
 
kaitak
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:21 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
sure hope no war breaks out. Our military has been fighting hard for almost a decade. Could the US military do the job? Yes, but many servicemen are exhausted from multiple deployments. Hopefully we can finish off Iraq and Afghanistan while avoiding the nutjobs in Iran and North Korea.

I don't see war breaking out over this; the danger of war breaking out arises, I think, if there is a lengthy scuffle between the two sides and might possibly have happened if the South Koreans had opened fire on the North Koreans in retaliation for its attack on their vessel. This must have been a very difficult decision for the south (i.e. not to retaliate), but when you're dealing with an unpredictable regime like the DPRK, it has to be assumed that things will spin out of control.

The South can impose sanctions and withhold aid, or other methods of making its displeasure felt. The problem is, of course, that if the South fails to respond once, the North may say, "oh, we can get away with it again" and I'm sure that the South would ensure that its forces were made aware of new terms of engagement in the case of another DPRK attack.

At the end of the day, while the DPRK has an impressive air force on paper (although most outdated - how long is a MiG 23 going to last against an F-15 or an F-16?), fuel supply must be an issue for them.

Nor can the DPRK rely on anyone else, as stated above; I'm sure that China and Russia know that the DPRK's time is limited and that ultimately, the two Koreas will be united, with Seoul as the capital. With China being one of S. Korea's big trading partners, I'm sure it sees its best interests lying with a united Korea, so I would not see it posing any threat to the south (nor offering protection to the North) if an escalating battle broke out.
 
Acheron
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:00 pm

Actually, nothing will happen.

Both countries benefit from the status quo, even with happenings like these. The South avoids having to deal and spend money millions of malnourished north koreans who at this point are probably way too different in many aspects to the south koreans to have a proper integration. Plus the ridiculous amounts of money that are going to be needed to rebuilt the north.

And Kim Jong-Il gets to stay in power, instead of killed by a LGB.

Also, everybody wants to avoid confrontation with some madman that has nukes.

So, I see the south koreans sucking it up and moving on at most doing some strike on north korean border post.
 
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
Actually, nothing will happen.

Both countries benefit from the status quo, even with happenings like these. The South avoids having to deal and spend money millions of malnourished north koreans who at this point are probably way too different in many aspects to the south koreans to have a proper integration. Plus the ridiculous amounts of money that are going to be needed to rebuilt the north.

  

One thing that many people seem to overlook are the ramifications that the collapse of the North would have for South Korea. South Korea simply cannot cope with the massive, sudden influx of refugees.
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:05 pm

Maybe the Godfather countries controlling either side work towards Reunification.
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TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:49 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 14):
It's also possible that something completely different happened and the North is getting the blame.

I'm leaning towards that one. Looking at the outcome from a tactical point of view, nothing seems to add up.

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 17):

Neither could China.
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 5):
57 years after the cease fire was signed you expect a decisive victory in Korea? You expect the Chinese to stand idle? I hope you're joking. Conflict in Korea would be very bloody and unlikely to change the situation substantially - best avoided.

Um. The Chinese are not fans of the North Koreans by any stretch of the imagination. They'd be quite happy to see them Mr. Kim wearing a custom-fitted noose.

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 17):
One thing that many people seem to overlook are the ramifications that the collapse of the North would have for South Korea. South Korea simply cannot cope with the massive, sudden influx of refugees.

Germany did it. There are still issues, but it's only been a generation and it's much improved.
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Francoflier
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:39 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.

Very idealistic and simplistic view. A war will create more problems than it will solve. The last thing North Korea needs is a sudden change in regime. A population that has been oppressed and tortured by a brutal regime for many decades cannot just be suddenly 'offered' democracy and expected to know what to do with it, other than flocking en masse towards the already crowded south, creating one of the worst immigration crisis in history. South Korea knows that all too well.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):

  

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Maybe the Godfather countries controlling either side work towards Reunification.

One wonders whether there might be some interests against the fall of DPRK from either side of those 'godfather countries' (US and China, not to name them...). But then I am unsure really how much pressure both of these countries are actually able to exert on South and North Korea, especially when factoring in the complicated economic ties between them all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Germany did it.

A South/North Korea reunification would be orders of magnitude harder than the German one. The differences are much greater, especially in terms of ideology, education and culture, not to mention the catastrophically failed economy of the North.

Let's face it, as much as anyone would like the North Korean regime to be decimated, few are ready to deal with the aftermath of that defeat. Such a mess cannot be entangled in an instant, it would take decades.
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mandala499
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:52 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 7):
I have a hard time believing that an ex-soviet clunker can sneak up on modern warship, equipped with a state of the art sonar, and sink it undetected.

If the picture shown by:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
They salvaged the ship over a week ago.

... was the ship... No, I don't have a hard time believing that an ex-soviet clunker can sneak up on a modern warship... well, it looks like a fast missile patrol vessel or an anti-surface corvette, which normally comes without the state-of-the-art sonar... even if it does, make the ship do 20kts and it might not hear the torpedo coming because it's own hull noise would be too much for the sonar to pick anything up.

Now if the warship was an ASW frigate doing less than 15knots with its towed array, or doing less than 10kts in not too rough seas... then yes, I'd have a friggin' hard time believing the story.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 11):
A bad step being intervening in any sort of Korean Crisis, which would immediately lead to a trade embargo from the West.

And the trade embargo from the west would lead to chronic shortage of cheap LCDs and other electronic stuff... made in China! (Even some of Airbus' components are made in China... and yes, even Chinese components for Airbus (which you get from buying deeply discounted new airbuses, but that's a different story!    ) fails... gimme the non-Chinese alternative please...)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Our military has been fighting hard for almost a decade. Could the US military do the job? Yes, but many servicemen are exhausted from multiple deployments. Hopefully we can finish off Iraq and Afghanistan while avoiding the nutjobs in Iran and North Korea.

Can the US afford to have another theatre??? I mean a LARGE battle theatre in addition to Iraq and Afghanistan? Europe's military logistics are already stretched, so unless Iraq and Afghanistan settles, the US would also have it's support limited by circumstance... the pacific assets would be totally occupied on Korea, leaving Taiwan and the Indian Ocean with little US presence (which is needed to keep the locals from getting "ambitious" over their backyard disputes and claims).

Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):
I'm sure that China and Russia know that the DPRK's time is limited and that ultimately, the two Koreas will be united, with Seoul as the capital.

China and Russia would like to keep DPRK as what it is now... their little naughty boy in the corner they can bully whilst pretending to be friends...    Loose that, and they've gotta find a new one to tell off...

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 17):
One thing that many people seem to overlook are the ramifications that the collapse of the North would have for South Korea. South Korea simply cannot cope with the massive, sudden influx of refugees.

Indeed! Actually, there's no need for a massive influx of NK refugees for SK to get bogged down in... the collapse of the DPRK without anyone crossing the border would keep SK and China busy ! Add the refugees and SK might collapse too, and we're all going to be back to square one!

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hoons90
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Germany did it. There are still issues, but it's only been a generation and it's much improved.

L410Turbolet's post in Reply 27 sums it up perfectly.
Air Koryo Post Korean Reunification? (by PillowTester Apr 21 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Also, at the time of German reunification, West Germany's GDP per capita was around 3 times larger than the East's. South Korea's GDP per capita is around 15 times larger than the North's. Thus, Germany's situation does not apply to Korea's situation at all.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 5):
57 years after the cease fire was signed you expect a decisive victory in Korea? You expect the Chinese to stand idle? I hope you're joking. Conflict in Korea would be very bloody and unlikely to change the situation substantially - best avoided.

Um. The Chinese are not fans of the North Koreans by any stretch of the imagination. They'd be quite happy to see them Mr. Kim wearing a custom-fitted noose.

I´m not sure that the Chinese would want US or US allied troops standing right at their border. This was which prompted the millions of Chinese volunteers back in the 1950s. China might agree if a united Korea becomes neutral, or if it becomes a Chinese vassal state, like the old pre-20th Korea under the Chinese empire (that it was later colonised by the Japanese is a different matter).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Quoting hoons90 (Reply 17):
One thing that many people seem to overlook are the ramifications that the collapse of the North would have for South Korea. South Korea simply cannot cope with the massive, sudden influx of refugees.

Germany did it. There are still issues, but it's only been a generation and it's much improved.

The South Koreans watched the German re-unification very closely. They noticed the cultural clash between East and West and how the West struggled with the sudden expenses (for which we are still paying, even though the re-unification happened 20 years ago).
Now East and West Germany were never as divided as North and South Korea, East and west German radio and TV were accessible on both sides of the border, unlike North Korea, where the radios and TVs are preset to be only able to receive the government channels, also since the early 1970s family visits were possible and were used a lot. Also retired East Germans could travel to the West. Basically the East Germans knew more or less what to expect from the West, while we knew more less what was going on in the East.
This doesn´t exist between North and South Korea.
Then East Germany never was as poor as North Korea and West Germany was considerably richer than South Korea.
An uncontrolled re-unification of the Koreas might well bankrupt South Korea.
The Chinese are also worried about a collapse of the North Korean government. It would mean that the border areas with an already big Korean ethnic minority would be swamped by millions of refugees.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 19):
Quoting sw733 (Reply 14):
It's also possible that something completely different happened and the North is getting the blame.

I'm leaning towards that one. Looking at the outcome from a tactical point of view, nothing seems to add up.

I´ve read in some sources that the ship might have been sunk by an old mine left over from the 1950-1953 war, which had never been cleared.

Jan
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waterpolodan
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:32 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):

Then East Germany never was as poor as North Korea and West Germany was considerably richer than South Korea.
An uncontrolled re-unification of the Koreas might well bankrupt South Korea.

Indeed. East Germans may have been working in inefficient factories that failed to compete in a newly capitalistic system immediately post unification, but they were better educated and better trained than the vast majority of North Koreans, who would face extreme culture shock and need extensive training on many more levels than the East Germans ever did before they'd be successfully and competitively integrated into the South Korean workforce. German unification wasn't a cake walk by any means, but compared to what would happen if/when NK collapses, it'll seem like a trifle.
 
zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Um. The Chinese are not fans of the North Koreans by any stretch of the imagination. They'd be quite happy to see them Mr. Kim wearing a custom-fitted noose.

Um. Ever been there? I spent time (years) in both South Korea & West Germany. North Korea (NK) is far more isolated than East Germany ever was. Neither China or the Russians would welcome a Western influence on their border. NK is far more desperate and willing to fight. Unfortunately no such thing as a decisive victory on the Korean peninsula is achievable, any conflict would be a waste of blood and treasure. Best thing to do is wait for NK to implode, hope for it to be peaceful but be prepared for any NK aggression.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 21):
A South/North Korea reunification would be orders of magnitude harder than the German one. The differences are much greater, especially in terms of ideology, education and culture, not to mention the catastrophically failed economy of the North.

  
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mandala499
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:15 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 26):
NK is far more desperate and willing to fight.

This one is probably the biggest difference between East Germany and NK. In NK, they literally worship (and made to worship) the leader... East Germany was different... they feared the apparatus, but would probably rather be dead than worship Erich Honecker... and the virtual Soviet occupation was there... that, doesn't exist in NK.

Mandala499
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MD11Engineer
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 27):
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 26):
NK is far more desperate and willing to fight.

This one is probably the biggest difference between East Germany and NK. In NK, they literally worship (and made to worship) the leader... East Germany was different... they feared the apparatus, but would probably rather be dead than worship Erich Honecker... and the virtual Soviet occupation was there... that, doesn't exist in NK.

Mandala499

You are right. The Stasi and Brandenburg and especially Bautzen prison were feared, but Honecker was considered to be more of a laughingstock.

Jan
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TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
I´ve read in some sources that the ship might have been sunk by an old mine left over from the 1950-1953 war, which had never been cleared.

Yeah, that makes more sense to me. The damage to the ship is more consistent with that scenario as well.
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zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
Yeah, that makes more sense to me. The damage to the ship is more consistent with that scenario as well.

I don't know about that. Antiship torpedoes are designed to detonate beneath the hull and break the ships back - which appears to be what happened in this case.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:05 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 30):
Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
Yeah, that makes more sense to me. The damage to the ship is more consistent with that scenario as well.

I don't know about that. Antiship torpedoes are designed to detonate beneath the hull and break the ships back - which appears to be what happened in this case.

So do magnetic or acoustic mines dropped into shallow coastal waters (this type of mine often gets dropped by aircraft using prachutes. Unlike the oldstyle "hedgehog" mines, which would float on a cable just beneath the surface magnetic and acoustic mines would sink to the bottom). The Germans used such mines during WW2 to block shipping around the British east coast.

Jan
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zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
So do magnetic or acoustic mines dropped into shallow coastal waters (this type of mine often gets dropped by aircraft using prachutes.

It doesn't seem likely that such a mine would still be functional after 57 years - but I'm not a naval weapons expert either.
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:11 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 32):
It doesn't seem likely that such a mine would still be functional after 57 years - but I'm not a naval weapons expert either.

They very may well be functional. Unexploded WWII bombs are dug up in Europe all the time and some of them are still very much live.
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waterpolodan
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:45 am

A couple of weeks ago, someone was very much killed in Connecticut by a revolutionary war-era hand grenade that went off when they were digging a new plumbing system for their house. I also recently read a story about a man in western China falling on a sword from the Mongol era and bleeding very substantially until he passed away, so we very much need to respect old weapons and munitions!
 
zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
They very may well be functional. Unexploded WWII bombs are dug up in Europe all the time and some of them are still very much live.

Those are contact fuses, I presume a magnetic or acoustic mine would require electrical fuses with a battery.
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TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:27 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 32):
after 57 years

I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea used mines well after the war.
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zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:33 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 36):
I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea used mines well after the war.

Which would put a hole in the "leftover munition from the war" theory....
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TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 37):

I doubt anybody could be 100% certain when the mine was laid, unless a similar one was found in the same area.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
They very may well be functional. Unexploded WWII bombs are dug up in Europe all the time and some of them are still very much live.

Those are contact fuses, I presume a magnetic or acoustic mine would require electrical fuses with a battery.

Not really. the delayed action bombs dropped by Germany over the UK also have electrical fuzes, and many of them are still very much alive (the timing mechanism, a mechanical clock, which would close the detonation circuit after a certain time, might have failed, but the mercury switches of the anti handling device, and the batteries are still ok. Similarly most WW2 magnetic fuzes don´t use electricity while they are loitering. Basically the fuze contains a magnetic needle, which adjusts to the local earth magnetic field during the first minutes after the mine reaches it´s resting place (part of the arming logic), any magnetic disturbance afterwards tilts the neddle and causes it to close a circuit to the detonators).
Traditional naval mines use "Hertz Horns", small protrusions made from a soft metal like lead, which contain a glass vial containing a bichromate solution. when the horn and the vial in it gets crushed by contact with a ship, the solution runs into a simple galvanic element made up from two metals and causes it to work as a battery. The current is then used to detonate an electric detonator. Those mines usually consist of two parts: the spherical bouyant part with the explosive charge and a heavy box, which is used as shipboard storage and also as the anchor. It contains a winch, which, after the whole mine has settled to the bottom, lets the bouyant part float up to a pre-determined depth beneath the surface. Sometimes the cable snaps and then the bouyant part floats up to the surface and becomes a "drifting mine".

Jan
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zanl188
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:10 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Similarly most WW2 magnetic fuzes don´t use electricity while they are loitering. Basically the fuze contains a magnetic needle, which adjusts to the local earth magnetic field during the first minutes after the mine reaches it´s resting place (part of the arming logic), any magnetic disturbance afterwards tilts the neddle and causes it to close a circuit to the detonators).

I'm skeptical. Although this scenario uses no electricity until the needle closes the circuit, it also assumes that the battery will survive with a charge for 57 years...

The info on contact mines is interesting, however that really doesn't form a battery until contact is made.


CNN now reporting a "bubble jet" from an explosion sank the ship, typical anti ship tactic for a modern munition. Assuming this is an NK munition, when did NK develop the technology? Or did they get it from China?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...south.korea.ship/index.html?hpt=T2
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:37 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Er..... perhaps you forgot about the DPRK's northern neighbor?

Northern neighbors...emphasis on the plural. Russia is up there too.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 12):
Actually, I believe the US and China have partnered with South Korea in pressuring the North and the North Korea issue is one area where the US and China stand firmly together, especially on the North's nuclear programs.

But this is not about the nuclear program. it's about either letting the northern regime survive in its tightrope economy or invading and putting an end to all possible nuclear activities there. Either way, China is certainly NOT partnered with the US on this and especially not with South Korea. I can see that if the US or South Korea attack North Korea, China will intervene on its behalf. If the opposite were to occur, I could see China abstaining from war.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 14):
It's also possible that something completely different happened and the North is getting the blame.

Just like the boy who cried wolf. Once we've found out he's lying, he'll have that seal forever. How do we know North Korea didn't sink the ship? This wouldn't be the first time they've provoked the South.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
China might agree if a united Korea becomes neutral, or if it becomes a Chinese vassal state, like the old pre-20th Korea under the Chinese empire (that it was later colonised by the Japanese is a different matter).

I can see it now: China putting territorial claims on Korea justifying that it was under Chinese rule when the Chinese Empire existed.

Bottom line: North Korea is the little kid that is told not to play with fire but comes running screaming for help the moment it backfires. Enough is enough. A time-out needs to be given to the little kid. Cut off support and let the northern regime fall. The whole world knows that money for the people is being used to satisfy Kimmy's army and personal delights while millions of North Koreans starve.

YouTube has a BBC documentary from 2008: Korea: Out of the North. A very interesting documentary to watch.
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TheCol
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:37 pm

Apparently there are a number of "likely causes" that haven't been ruled out. The media is just playing up the likelihood of a submarine attack.

http://www.canada.com/news/Torpedo+l...n+ship+minister/2949296/story.html

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 40):
Or did they get it from China?

Most of their arsenal has come from Russia and China.
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:47 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 41):

I can see it now: China putting territorial claims on Korea justifying that it was under Chinese rule when the Chinese Empire existed.

Don't they do that with every bordering state  
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:01 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Oh yes. I very much hope they do. And, unlike the nonsense in Iraq, this is a war we can help with and a war in which we can provide a definitive and decisive victory.

Hey man, what the heck is the matter with you!? Do you realize what you're saying? The conflict that you hope for, would be the most bloody war in over 4 decades.

But then again, it's really easy for you to sit at your desk, and suggest we go in there with guns blazing... because it's not your ass that's on the line.  

What a foolish thing to say.
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Aaron747
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 41):
I can see that if the US or South Korea attack North Korea, China will intervene on its behalf.

Again, as others have pointed out, I don't really see how they benefit from doing so. The last thing China wants is a flood of Korean refugees on their borders - they've already been preparing for that contingency for years were the regime to collapse. Their economic goose is cooked regionally - they can't throw around military intervention willy-nilly. That simply is no longer an option - they grow and maintain their military for deterrent effect only. If that weren't the case, by now they'd have taken back half the territory from India, Taiwan, the Philippines and elsewhere they claim to be theirs.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
Hey man, what the heck is the matter with you!? Do you realize what you're saying? The conflict that you hope for, would be the most bloody war in over 4 decades.

No sense getting all riled up about it - it's an absurd suggestion, yes, but it's so unlikely as to be unmentionable.
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corinthians
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RE: South Korea: "N. Korea Torpedoed Our Submarine"

Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:11 pm

I lived in South Korea for a year. When I was there, it was always a delicate balance with how the South handled the North. Looks like things have changed a bit, especially with the South saying North Korea was directly involved with the ship-sinking. This is a huge shift

Though not as severe, incidents like these happen a lot more often than reported and the South Korean media does a lot to cover it up so that they wouldn’t enrage the North. Also, the president at that time, Roh Min-hyun, did all he could to placate the North and refused to take an aggressive stance, even though cross-boarder incidents happen almost daily. He simply ignored it.

Although North and South Korea are “separated”, many Koreans view the entire Korean peninsula as one country and as the Korean race. Race is a very strong issue in Korea. Many of the younger generation don’t have the same hostility towards the North as their older brethren. The last elections kind of proved this as the older generation voted for President Lee, who promised a tougher policy towards the North. The younger voted for the other candidate (I forget his name) because they still wanted to Sunshine Policy in place.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 21):
A South/North Korea reunification would be orders of magnitude harder than the German one. The differences are much greater, especially in terms of ideology, education and culture, not to mention the catastrophically failed economy of the North.

Let's face it, as much as anyone would like the North Korean regime to be decimated, few are ready to deal with the aftermath of that defeat. Such a mess cannot be entangled in an instant, it would take decades.

Absolutely spot on. Koreans who push for reunification fail to realize the costs that come with it. And North Korea is in far, far worse shape than East Germany ever was. Even looking back at the German Reunification, it hasn’t been so smooth and there are still deep divides to this day. And ask a South Korean if they want reunification, they might say yes. Ask them if they want reunification even if they would lose their economic quality of life they worked so hard to achieve…they would have to get back to you.

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