Venus6971
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:16 pm

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...glar-shot-20100526,0,2636272.story

Its not the 80 year old vet protecting his life that is in question. But being this was in Chicago and they have a total handgun ban for law abiding citizens, the question is will Mayor Daley push a prosecution of this man for defying the Chicago ordinance of having a handgun ? It appears most of the law abiding Chicago citizens will help pay any legal costs for this man if prosecuted and would make a great case study for 2nd amendment rights debate.
I do not have a JD but I fatally apply common sense to this arguement, if he was using deadly force to protect property and family does that apply to the US Constitution, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness or does the Chicago ordinace trump any due process and allows the right of the offender to rob rape and murder.
I'll make a prediction that anti incumbency will be rampent in Chicago and the rest of Illinois if a prosecution goes through on the 80 year old.
I was born a raised in Chicago but live in OKC now since the early 90's but I am always curious on how things go back home.
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Aesma
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:30 pm

Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dreadnought
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:46 pm

At least here in KY if you find a burglar in your home, you can shoot him, no questions asked.

Even if you live in a big city, you have to assume that if you call the police they will take at least several minutes to get to you. For those few minutes, you're on your own.

I hope the old man is not dragged to court for this - in any civilized jurisdiction, he wouldn't be.

By the way, a few years ago in my neighborhood, we had a rash of home invasions and burglaries for several months - spillover from a nearby poor part of town we now call Little Mexico. Someone at the local branch of the NRA had the bright idea of handing out free stickers to put in the window, like "Member of NRA", "This property protected by Smith & Wesson", and so forth, and pretty much everyone in the neighborhood got them and put them in their windows. The home invasions and burglaries died off almost within a week. Those stickers worked even better than the signs given by security services like Brinks.
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mt99
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:48 pm

There are occasions for which seat belts and airbags actually cause more harm than good.

We should stop requiring seat belts and airbags in cars.
Step into my office, baby
 
Venus6971
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.

Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
mt99
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I hope the old man is not dragged to court for this - in any civilized jurisdiction, he wouldn't be.

Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..

Does that qualify a us civilized jurisdiction?
Step into my office, baby
 
fr8mech
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 4:59 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
push a prosecution of this man for defying the Chicago ordinance of having a handgun

He should be prosecuted. As much as I'm a proponent of our 2nd Amendment rights and the right to defend ourselves and our right to own and carry a firearm (you get the picture), we must also obey the law. We do live in a land of laws. But, if there is a law we disagree with, we must work to change it.

But, then again, Daley and his cronies are politically astute and can see the political dynamite this case is. They will have to decide which fallout they can better manage, those who believe in our right to defend ourselves with equal or greater force than presented or the anti-gun lobby.

The way this should be prosecuted, if it is prosecuted, is as the unlawful possesion of a firearm and not murder. He clearly, with available information, acted in self-defense. With any luck, the NRA takes up position behind this man and tosses another challenge to the Chicago law.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.

You're right, a law like that can not work in isolation. And, since we do have the 2nd Amendment, and the Heller ruling, we may find that the Chicago law, along with many others around the nation get overturned.

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:01:32]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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larshjort
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 5:26 pm

My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):
Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?

In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

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Aesma
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 5:33 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

Same here. And very few burglars are armed, guns are mostly used by drug dealers/mafiosis among themselves.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
fr8mech
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 5:36 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

We're talking Chicago here. Mayor Daley, through cronism and corruption, is the de-facto king of Chicago.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

Is the average citizen allowed to own and carry a gun?

A follow-up, if I may? If the average citizen is not allowed a gun, yet uses one in self-defense (against a gun weilding attacker) does the citizen suffer any penalty?

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:38:14]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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N328KF
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..

I have heard no such thing, and I have been paying attention to the news on this subject today. WLSAM posited that Daley was in a quandary, because of the issue this issue:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
He should be prosecuted. As much as I'm a proponent of our 2nd Amendment rights and the right to defend ourselves and our right to own and carry a firearm (you get the picture), we must also obey the law. We do live in a land of laws. But, if there is a law we disagree with, we must work to change it.

Oh, believe me, that's in the works. If the City wants to prosecute him, they have only a few days or a couple of weeks to do it. SCOTUS will rule on the constitutionality of the Chicago handgun ban in that timeframe.

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:40:49]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
sprout5199
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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 5:56 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

So if you are threatened with a bat, you can not use a gun to defend yourself? Sounds odd. So if a 5 foot, 100 pound woman was being attacked by a 6 foot 250 pound man with his hands, all she can defend herself with is her hands?

Dan in Jupiter
 
AGM100
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..



If the man broke the law by having a handgun he should be prosecuted under the law!!. Suspending the law for political convenience is outrageous and needs to stop. Charge him ... then let the political process take shape.

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 11):
So if you are threatened with a bat, you can not use a gun to defend yourself? Sounds odd. So if a 5 foot, 100 pound woman was being attacked by a 6 foot 250 pound man with his hands, all she can defend herself with is her hands?



Its a case by case issue ...it all depends on the circumstances . The jury makes the call in the end and that is how it should be.
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Cadet57
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 7:11 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 3):
There are occasions for which seat belts and airbags actually cause more harm than good.

We should stop requiring seat belts and airbags in cars.

Ok?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
If the man broke the law by having a handgun he should be prosecuted under the law!!.

And if that law is unconstitutional?
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Starbuk7
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 7:32 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Even if you live in a big city, you have to assume that if you call the police they will take at least several minutes to get to you. For those few minutes, you're on your own.


Reminds me of this joke i received a while back.

I was going to bed the other night when my wife told me she could see from the bedroom window that I had left the light on in the shed. As I looked for myself, I saw that there were people in the shed taking things. I phoned the police, but they told me that no one was in our area to help at this time, but they would send someone over as soon as they were available.

I said, "OK", hung up, and waited one minute, then phoned the police back.

"Hello. I just called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now cause I've shot them all."

Within five minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, an Armed Response unit, the works. Of course, they caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the officers said: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

I replied with, "I thought you said there was nobody available."
 
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Aesma
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 7:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
A follow-up, if I may? If the average citizen is not allowed a gun, yet uses one in self-defense (against a gun wielding attacker) does the citizen suffer any penalty?

There will be an inquiry and probably a trial (it happens even with cops), now they wouldn't risk much, unless they did something like shooting the burglar in the back while he was fleeing.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
lewis
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 8:04 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

If you are in immediate danger, will you have time to assess the situation and pick a suitable weapon?

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):

Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?

I am not sure what the law is here regarding the use of firearms to defend our home. In my family, if we suspect that a burglar is in the house, my father will automatically grab his glock, not to kill, maybe to wound (at the leg for example) any intruders. He will ask questions later. And we are not a firearm society. With so many burglaries and increase in crime around Athens, like people going into houses and injuring/killing for a 50EUR loot, I doubt anyone is going to take the side of a criminal.
 
AGM100
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 8:18 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):
And if that law is unconstitutional?



I agree the law is unconstitutional ... but we will never get rid of these laws if it never really becomes a political issue. When the laws are just dismissed at convenience rather than actually amending them or striking them down ...well you can see the problem. They Should charge this man for breaking the city ordnance ...then let the political process take shape to ammend the law or get rid of it.
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fr8mech
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 8:23 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):

And if that law is unconstitutional?

Let the process play itself out. We can't just go ignoring laws that we feel are wrong or un-Constitutional. Challenge them in court. Otherwise, there is anarchy.

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
my father will automatically grab his glock

Is he a police officer? If not, how has he come to own a handgun in Athens? I'm pretty sure that it is illegal to do so.

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
maybe to wound

And this is a way to get yourself killed. Unless you are trained under the stress of combat or simulated combat, when the situation presents itself, shooting at a small target, like a leg or an arm or the intruder's weapon, will almost surely fail. If you feel your life is threatened enough to shoot, you shoot center-mass in order to stop the threat. I think I'm an outstanding shot, but I would not even consider shooting anything less than center-mass.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
There will be an inquiry and probably a trial (it happens even with cops), now they wouldn't risk much, unless they did something like shooting the burglar in the back while he was fleeing.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'm not asking about the actual killing, we'll say that is a clear-cut justified case of self-defense (as the case in chicago appears to be). What about the gun charge? Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?

I think the City of Chicago will just sit on the charges ("gathering evidence") until the constitutional verdict is rendered in a couple of weeks, thus mooting the charges. If they file charges, then it'll be automatically rendered null and void by the verdict anyhow.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Aesma
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
If you are in immediate danger, will you have time to assess the situation and pick a suitable weapon?

That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'm not asking about the actual killing, we'll say that is a clear-cut justified case of self-defense (as the case in chicago appears to be). What about the gun charge? Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?

Yes he will.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Venus6971
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Thu May 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
I think the City of Chicago will just sit on the charges ("gathering evidence") until the constitutional verdict is rendered in a couple of weeks, thus mooting the charges. If they file charges, then it'll be automatically rendered null and void by the verdict anyhow.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Yes he will.


Yes they probably will file charges and if the prosecuter is smart he will wait until what SCOTUS comes back with. If against the City of Chicago this will be dropped like a bad habit.
Old Saying'
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God did not make all men equal, it took Samuel Colt to do so.
Either way this makes it a difficult position for Mayor Daley to be in, if the old man was not armed and he and his wife were killed he would be catching hell right now for denying law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves.
I wish people who are anti gun,smoking, meat, whatever their cause stop trying to impose their beliefs on people who do not agree with them. With freedom comes responsiblity, why is my fault if someone else is irresponsible.
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bohica
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 12:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

We're talking Chicago here. Mayor Daley, through cronism and corruption, is the de-facto king of Chicago.

Let's not forget that Mayor Daley is the dictator of Chicago who took it upon himself to send a team of bulldozers in the middle of the night to destroy Meigs Field. If he can get away with that, he can decide whether or not to prosecute an 80-year-old hero on gun charges.

If it does get prosecuted it will probably be plea bargained, our hero gets probation, and then the charges dropped after completing probation.
 
fr8mech
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 12:15 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.

But, what do you do when your assailant is armed with a gun and you're not?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Venus6971
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 12:57 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
But, what do you do when your assailant is armed with a gun and you're not?

Free men don't ask permission to arm and defend themselves.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
charlienorth
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 2:41 am

I always say.. will agree to a ban on guns if the police and military give 'em up too..
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
Mudboy
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 4:43 am

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

I hate to tell you, but a bat can be just as deadly as a gun. If I have a gun and someone comes at me with a bat, am I to say," time out" so I can go get a bat?

Use of deadly force by a gun is equal to the threat of deadly force with a baseball bat. I have seen quite a few people killed with a baseball bat to head in my career.

As for shooting someone in the leg, when they are charging at you with a weapon, you have seen way too many movies.
As someone stated, in the heat of combat, you go for te biggest target and double tap, which is center mass.
 
BMI727
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 6:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
We're talking Chicago here. Mayor Daley, through cronism and corruption, is the de-facto king of Chicago.

   We are talking about a guy who secretly destroyed an airport and it only cost them $33000. How bout Rahm in 2011?

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

But that would get messed up if you are talking about an elderly man who would lose any battle with baseball bats.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
Suspending the law for political convenience is outrageous and needs to stop

Welcome to Chicago.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
lewis
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 6:54 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Is he a police officer? If not, how has he come to own a handgun in Athens? I'm pretty sure that it is illegal to do so.

No. And it is not illegal to own a firearm, it is illegal to use it outside shooting ranges and to carry it around with you. There is a different licence in Greece for owning a gun and a different one for actually using a gun. Many people own guns for hobby, to go to shooting ranges and practice. Many people own guns they use for hunting as well. Most of the people in my village (northern Greece, adjacent to the border with Albania) own guns and most carry them all the time as well, especially during night time. Same goes for Crete.
 
lewis
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 7:01 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.

I used to be very anti-gun. Nowdays most of our neighbours houses have been broken into not by single burglars but by groups of them. People are getting injured or killed for silly things like 50-150 EUR. I have no problem with someone (the burglar(s)) getting killed in a situation like this. It is either us or them. You cannot count on the police, especially if you live in a suburban area.
 
sasd209
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 7:04 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
He should be prosecuted.

I absolutely agree!!!
I will then send his defense team as much money as I can spare so they can fight this and while doing it the high courts of your Land can find the gun ban of Chicago USA unconstitutional in accordance with your 2nd Amendment of your Constitution. Let the justice system of USA work and come to the correct conclusion!  
 
JJJ
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 8:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Is the average citizen allowed to own and carry a gun?

A follow-up, if I may? If the average citizen is not allowed a gun, yet uses one in self-defense (against a gun weilding attacker) does the citizen suffer any penalty?

I answer for Spain, which has very similar gun laws than pretty much most of Europe.

For a hunting permit you need to be a registered hunter (which is costs something line 30 euro, depending on the region, as it's a local issue, and most of it is a 3rd party insurance that will cover you in case you accidentaly shoot someone or something while hunting) after that, have a medical checkup that says you're not blind or have serious mental issues and you're free to own a shotgun, either dual barrel or pump-action with max 3+1 slug capacity. That's the most common gun license in Spain, with several million registered.

It takes longer to register rifles, and they're equaly limited to 3+1 mag capacity.

You're required to keep the gun in a locked cabinet, you can't shoot outside of defined hunting areas (pretty much everything that's not a town or protected natural reserve) or shooting clubs (clay pigeon, etc.).

For a target permit (shotgun or handgun) you need to be a member of a shooting club AND attend at least one regional-level competitive shoot a year. On your first year you can purchase a single .22, you may add an additional gun at the 2nd, 3rd etc. with a max. (IIRC) 3 guns at any given point. After the 3rd year calibre restrictions are lifted. My shooting club has something like 250 members, of which only 30 are real competitors. The rest just attend the minimum 1 shoot a year and keep the gun for home defense. Officially you're required to keep the gun in a safe, separate from the cartridges.

For an actual handgun license (besides law enforcement and private security) you have to apply and give a proper reason for which you are at special risk: famous people, judges, businessmen, people who have been threatened, etc. It's very tough to get and needs to be renewed every year. If you lose your special risk, the license (and the gun) is gone. It explicitly allows you to shoot in self (or some other people) defence and concealed carry.

Regarding defence, i can quote you a couple of high-profile cases.

Case 1, son-in-law of a wealthy jeweller, two Kosovari fellas break in (without weapons), take a few valuables and leave the home. The son-in-law pursues them and shoots them both in the back, already outside the house, one dead, the other paralyzed. He is prosecuted and very likely will get a few years in prison (he'll get manslaughter on something like that), despite having a self-defence license.

Case 2, the young owner of a nightclub is assaulted by two thugs upon returning home and threatened with knives to reveal the location of the safe (a drugs issue, he was later charged with trafficking). His father (a competitive shooter) watches the scene and puts a couple .22s on each of the thugs' heads. He was cleared because there was a reasonable risk that they would hurt his son.

If any of the guns had been unlicensed, you can bet they would have been charged with illegal gun possession, which only will get you in prison if in combination with another offense or if you're a repeat offender.
 
bjorn14
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 10:10 am

The leading cause of death is sin.
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mt99
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 1:16 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10):
I have heard no such thing
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
If the man broke the law by having a handgun he should be prosecuted under the law!!.

And if that law is unconstitutional?

That did not/ stop Arizona.

I don't understand all the support for the AZ anti-illegal law (before it got changed). You guys said pretty much "the constitution be dammed". This is something the state of AZ wants to do - quoting polls and such.

Now, one city does not want guns. Why is it any different? Why is the state of AZ "brave"? Why is not Chicago "brave" to do something that it thinks it should happen?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 3):
There are occasions for which seat belts and airbags actually cause more harm than good.

We should stop requiring seat belts and airbags in cars.

Ok?

Just beacuse things work out well one time - it does not mean its a good idea..
Step into my office, baby
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 1:22 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):

That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 33):
I don't understand all the support for the AZ anti-illegal law (before it got changed). You guys said pretty much "the constitution be dammed".

What part of the constitution says that we should not enforce our border laws? You're making this sh&t up...

Quoting mt99 (Reply 33):
Now, one city does not want guns. Why is it any different?

Because, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Looks pretty clear to me.
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mt99
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 1:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
What part of the constitution says that we should not enforce our border laws? You're making this sh&t up...

You know the thread. look it up.

The way the first law was crafted brought up into question some constitutionality issues,.,. that why it got changed!..

But before the change - no one - not even you.. addressed the repleted questions of the constitutionality of the first proposal.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
What part of the constitution says that we should not enforce our border laws? Y

No where - but the WAY it was being proposed to enforce the laws was brought into question.. and you dint care

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):

Because, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Looks pretty clear to me.

So what? If a majority want it that way...

Like gay marriage you know..

Maybe we should put gun ownership to a vote
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N328KF
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RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 33):
I don't understand all the support for the AZ anti-illegal law (before it got changed). You guys said pretty much "the constitution be dammed". This is something the state of AZ wants to do - quoting polls and such.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
What part of the constitution says that we should not enforce our border laws? You're making this sh&t up...

Actually, Los Angeles has a law almost identical to the Arizona law on their books. They just don't enforce it, is all. Let's be clear: The law does not say that someone can be arbitrarily asked for their papers. This only occurs if they have committed a crime. Chicago actually does this when you are admitted to the Cook County Jail. So why are people so focused on Arizona? It boggles the mind that people are so myopic about what laws actually exist and what this one is all about.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: 80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago

Fri May 28, 2010 2:01 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 36):
Let's be clear: The law does not say that someone can be arbitrarily asked for their papers.

Thats not quite what the FIRST version of the law said...
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