kl671
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Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:07 am

I came across this article in the UK motoring magazine "Autocar" that describes an electric vehicle being developed by Jaguar, that uses a turbo electric drive. They propose using a micro gas turbine manufactured by Bladen Jets, to drive a high speed generator that will charge a battery pack. The consortium have secured financing from the British government.

Given the many failed attempts by many manufacturers to put a gas turbine powred car into volume production, is this one also doomed to failure?. Would you buy one?

Has anyone out there got any info on how this development program is proceding?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Jaguar-Concepts/247785/

http://www.bladonjets.com/
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:15 am

Not a new idea - Chrysler did it 50 years ago and even built 50 of them.

Quote:
It could use diesel fuel, unleaded gasoline, kerosene, JP-4 jet fuel, and even vegetable oil. The engine would run on virtually anything and the president of Mexico tested this theory by running one of the first cars—successfully—on tequila.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:21 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

Plus the M1 Abrams tank, though this does have disadvantages, some of which, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust, would probably also apply to cars.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:29 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
hot exhaust,

I'm sure the eco-mentalists won't be happy about that. Can you imagine the thermal signature above an LA traffic jam if all cars were turbine powered? At that point the theory of man-made global warming might have some validity 
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:31 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I'm sure the eco-mentalists won't be happy about that

Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?   
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:55 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?

Yeah, that'll be fun on asphalt.
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bohica
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust,

I'm sure it's loud.
 
BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:44 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
I'm sure it's loud

Actually, quite the opposite. If I recall correctly, the Chrysler was actually somewhat disparaged because it was too quiet, and didn't have the roar drivers thought a car should have. The Abrams tank is also known for being considerably quieter than its diesel powered counterparts.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:45 am

I'm very surprised they went with an axial design. I was expecting to see a centrifugal compressor based out of automotive turbochargers as used for R/C jet engines. Would have certainly been much cheaper. However, an axial turbine would be more efficient, obviously that's why they went this route. However, I'm guessing it won't be cheap at all. R/C turbine engines in this size are about $3 grand. I'm guessing something like this is at least twice or maybe even 3 times as much, as it does not use off-the-shelf parts.

However, I think serial Hybrids are much much better than regular parallel hybrids like the Prius. It just makes much more sense to have a (relatively) tiny combustion engine driving a large generator and big motors rather than a big-ish combustion engine driving a tiny generator and tiny motors. Heck, diesel electric trains have been proving the serial hybrid concept for well over half a century.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):

Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?
Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
I'm sure it's loud.

Doubt either will happen. Since obviously cars don't have to be super light, unlike planes, they can afford to put a beefy exhaust and muffler system. Just look at all the industrial micro turbines, they're pretty much dead silent and the exhaust is no hotter than that of reciprocating engines.

[Edited 2010-06-03 22:51:06]

[Edited 2010-06-03 22:51:22]
 
srbmod
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

A very thorough history of the Chrysler turbine cars can be found on Allpar (There's also some great film footage posted in the article as well.) :

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):

Plus the M1 Abrams tank, though this does have disadvantages, some of which, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust, would probably also apply to cars.

Here's a list of advantages, taken from the above link at Allpar:

# Maintenance is considerably reduced
# Engine life-expectancy is much longer
# Development potential is remarkable
# The number of parts is reduced 80%
# Tuning-up is almost eliminated
# Low-temperature starting difficulties are eliminated
# No warm-up period is necessary
# Antifreeze is not needed
# Instant heat is available in the winter
# The engine will not stall with sudden overloading
# Engine operation is vibration-free
# Operates on wide variety of fuels
# Oil consumption is negligible
# Engine weight is reduced
# Exhaust gases are cool and clean


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Actually, quite the opposite. If I recall correctly, the Chrysler was actually somewhat disparaged because it was too quiet, and didn't have the roar drivers thought a car should have. The Abrams tank is also known for being considerably quieter than its diesel powered counterparts.

Which today probably isn't as big of an issue when you consider how well insulated cars are in regards to sound compared to in the past. In addition, cars are nowhere near as loud (unless they are performance vehicles or modified with aftermarket accessories like those "coffee can" exhausts that make a four-banger sound like a Harley.) as in the past.
 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:48 pm

I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!   
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vc10
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:01 pm

Now you won't forget Dear old Rover of the UK produced a turbine powered car back in 1948 and even went on to run one of their cars at LeMans in the 1960s


http://www.rover.org.nz/pages/jet/jet5.htm

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Rj111
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:12 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Chrysler did it 50 years ago and even built 50 of them.

Slightly different in that it's a GT-E.

More resembles one of these bad boys i suppose...

 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:50 pm

 
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DocLightning
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:12 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 10):
I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!

Yeah, but first you need a new garage. Every time you start it.  
Quoting kl671 (Thread starter):

Given the many failed attempts by many manufacturers to put a gas turbine powred car into volume production, is this one also doomed to failure?. Would you buy one?

This is an interesting idea. The big reason why turbines were never successful at powering cars is because turbines respond slowly to changes in demand. You can run an internal combustion from idle to red-line in less than a second. You can't do that with a turbine without risking a surge.

But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency.

And so I'm sorry to disappoint you planet-trashers, but this car, if I'm not mistaken, is going to be greener than green.
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency

Well, if the thing is going to haul around a thousand pounds wroth of batteries, I'd rather go with a direct drive.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
And so I'm sorry to disappoint you planet-trashers, but this car, if I'm not mistaken, is going to be greener than green.

It needs to be better than pistons if they want me to drive it.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
Since obviously cars don't have to be super light, unlike planes,

That's what you think.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:54 pm

Quoting MasterBean (Reply 13):
Jay Leno's built one. Here she be.

LOL! If it goes on sale it can be called the Chinmobile.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):

But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency.

That's an interesting idea. That would allow for a smaller, less responsive turbine which theoretically can be more efficient.
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comorin
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:25 pm

I'm-a-not understanding this at all, my friends. All Jaguar has done is move a small, oil-burning power generation station into the trunk. How does this help cut emissions?

Fly2HMO, good post, btw.
 
Okie
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:40 am

Let's see Fuel + internal combustion engine + alternator + DC bridge (charging circuit) + heavy polluting battery + electric motor.
Changing the internal combustion engine from recip to turbine is just not going to make great strides.

Try this Fuel + fuel cell + electric motor.
Now you get to leave some of the energy losses and weight behind as well as 95% of the pollution.
Looks like we need to put effort in the fuel cell technology. Right now the Fuel Cell is not coming along as hoped.

Okie
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:10 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 10):
I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!

eh, I'll pass unless they put afterburners as an option 
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
That's what you think.

We're talking daily drivers here. Of course a proper sports car has to be light.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
+ DC bridge (charging circuit) + heavy polluting battery +

        

You're missing the point. With a serial hybrid you can get rid of batteries/chargers altogether. So in reality it would not be much different than your regular car's systems, aside from the turbine and electric motors.

So in reality it would be a Jet-A/Diesel/Gasoline/Kerosene/Biofuel/Vodka-Electric car, akin to diesel-electric trains.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Changing the internal combustion engine from recip to turbine is just not going to make great strides.

Volvo had a serial hybrid (diesel-electric) that did over 100MPGs. This turbine is infinitely smaller than the diesel generator in that car, and I'm sure it will be more efficient.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Looks like we need to put effort in the fuel cell technology

Hell no. First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels.

[Edited 2010-06-04 18:14:12]
 
Okie
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:00 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
Hell no. First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels



Hell no. A fuel cell that will run on:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
Jet-A/Diesel/Gasoline/Kerosene/Biofuel/Vodka-Electric car



Or natural gas, Hydrogen would be the last resort. Something we already have infrastructure to transport and deliver only we would have to deliver 1/2 as much.

We need to get efficiencies up higher than the 30% range for energy put in to the energy put on the ground with electrics now.

Okie
 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:47 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):

That's an interesting idea. That would allow for a smaller, less responsive turbine which theoretically can be more efficient.

Yes, and it still allows for rapid response to demand from the drive. Brilliant! It'll have to be an all-electric drive, but that's brilliant!
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Yes, and it still allows for rapid response to demand from the drive

More than rapid, instant. Electric cars have a lot of potential, and really they take the positive characteristics of diesel to the next level. The hurdle is not the engine itself, but storage. As far as I am concerned, batteries just don't have enough capacity per pound to be really good. Supercapacitors do offer hope though, assuming the technology gets there.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels.

Well, it is the fuel of the future and probably always will be.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):

Well, it is the fuel of the future and probably always will be.

It does occupy a larger volume (the figure 7x is in my head for some reason) than hydrocarbon fuel.
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
It does occupy a larger volume (the figure 7x is in my head for some reason) than hydrocarbon fuel

The biggest issue with hydrogen in my mind is that basically the entire infrastructure for fuel would need to be rebuilt. Essentially, every gas station would need to be renovated or replaces, and new trucks and tank cars would need to be made. It would be a costly, long, and probably for consumers frustrating process. Compare that with diesel, which is already easily available, and most stations without it would only need to put diesel instead of gas in their underground tanks or electricity which is easily available in nearly every home and perhaps add pay to charge stations wired into parking garages and the like.

The other advantage of supercapacitors is that they can be charged and discharged quickly with little degradation. Hopefully, an electrical car that uses supercapacitors for storage would not need a backup combustion engine, although a series hybrid would still benefit from the technology, whenever it is ready.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:13 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):

The biggest issue with hydrogen in my mind is that basically the entire infrastructure for fuel would need to be rebuilt. Essentially, every gas station would need to be renovated or replaces, and new trucks and tank cars would need to be made. It would be a costly, long, and probably for consumers frustrating process.

I think that it would evolve slowly, then catch on like wildfire. Much like other technologies, it would not appear overnight or in one vast coordinated swoop, but bit by bit.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:00 am

In Auckland, New Zealand there are buses that are turbine powered. I can't remember if they are directly hooked up to the gearbox or if they generate electricity for electric motors.
The Abrams tank is hooked up directly hence its rather large fuel consumption (compared to many other tanks, however it is very powerful). In a car using a turbine to generate electricity for electric motors would be far more fuel effecient than a direct powered setup. The turbine could be a lot smaller and quieter. Overall it would probably still use more fuel than efficient models of standard engines, but it could be quite powerful, light without being overly fuel hungry (ie like a V6 vs a V8).
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A342
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:16 pm

Quoting zkpilot (Reply 26):
In Auckland, New Zealand there are buses that are turbine powered.

Are you really really really sure?  

I ask because some of the older CNG buses in my city sounded like they had a turbine engine, but it was a normal piston (it was the very loud turbocharger that made them sound like turbines).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Okie
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:13 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
I think that it would evolve slowly, then catch on like wildfire. Much like other technologies, it would not appear overnight or in one vast coordinated swoop, but bit by bit.



The issue I have here is the amount of energy used to produce the hydrogen as well as the infrastructure. This is just another energy loss step in the process from the energy put in to the process till you get energy on the ground. Natural Gas may be an option, but right now the energy densities of gasoline or diesel are tough to overcome.

Okie
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency.

Not so much a hybrid (as hybrid means two sources of propulsion), but a full blown electric car, with its own electricity generator on board.
The concept has quite a few advantages, many have been cited already;

Small lightweight turbine, running constant speed meaning its fuel efficiency can be optimized, very reliable, 1 or 2 moving parts only, ideally suited for electricity generation, less battery weight, no need to recharge batteries, no cooling system, will last half of forever, etc...
If it works, it could just be the concept that will make me like electric cars.

Quoting comorin (Reply 17):
How does this help cut emissions?

The gas turbine is very small (in comparison to a normal piston engine), and could consumes less fuel. It can be optimized to run at constant speed (via a speed governor to vary fuel flow depending on generator load) to power a small generator. That said, I'm a bit akeptical about the fuel consumption too. It's been tried on trains and been found to be less efficient than big diesel engines, so I'm not sure that scaling down the whole thing would turn out to be much different.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:37 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 20):
Something we already have infrastructure to transport and deliver only we would have to deliver 1/2 as much.

The only problem being fuel cells tend to run best on hydrogen (for now at least)  
Quoting francoflier (Reply 29):
That said, I'm a bit akeptical about the fuel consumption too. It's been tried on trains and been found to be less efficient than big diesel engines, so I'm not sure that scaling down the whole thing would turn out to be much different.

I'm pretty sure it will be much more efficient than a piston. I don't see any mention of using a regenerator as in the Chrysler turbines but that would significantly increase efficiency even more. The Chryslers did up to 22 mpgs, doesn't sound like much for today's standards, but it was very decent mileage for 1960's standards. And also bear in mind they were variable speed turbo shafts and used centrifugal compressors, not the ideal set up for efficiency.
 
comorin
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:49 pm

Direct Drive: So you have a constant speed turbine ( why? because of AC frequency?) that powers series-wound motors under a varying load scenario. So how do you control the loading on the constant-speed turbine? Essentially you would have to vary the fuel flow rate but I always thought torque was proportional to speed for a gas turbine. Unless you had batteries or supercapicitors in between, that would be quite tricky to accomplish, I think.

Enlightenment welcome!
 
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:12 pm

I remember when the Chrysler cars were out and about, even saw one once on the road. I thought they looked more like a Ford, very Thunderbirdesque in design.

At the time they were advertised as they could run on anything combustable. I wished they would have continued the project. It was a very different kind of car.

It also goes to show that consumers buy a car and expect it to sound like a car.......
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DocLightning
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:13 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 29):
will last half of forever,

Well, until you need to replace the batteries.

Quoting comorin (Reply 31):
Unless you had batteries or supercapicitors in between, that would be quite tricky to accomplish, I think.

That's the point. Batteries. And perhaps eventually supercapacitors. Presumably, the turbine would be started and and stopped by a computer as the battery charge varied. Noise control wouldn't be too difficult, so the car would be very quiet.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 29):
It's been tried on trains and been found to be less efficient than big diesel engines,

Direct turbine drive has been tried on both and the diesels have won out, but turbine-electric hasn't been as big a deal. The advantages of diesel electric have been known for a long time. My father's ship in WWII had a diesel-electric drive whereby the engines powered generators that drove, among other things, the electric motors that spun the screws. They had to do everything manually, of course. I spoke with the engineer on his ship when he came to visit my father once and he told me that they had these charts to tell them how much engine power they needed to have before they stat the rheostat for the electric motors to a certain speed.

The thing about electricity storage and generation is that it's very efficient and there's very little loss of energy, especially with today's materials. The energy going into the generator is recovered about 80% with only small amounts lost to heat.

In an automotive application, the demand is constantly changing, so having a buffer (batteries/supercapacitors) to store electricity is key. Electric motors start and stop essentially instantly, so you can turn them on as the car accelerates up a hill and shut them off as the car descends the next hill. Much of this technology is already in use in modern Hybrids. The Prius uses braking and also descending a hill in cruise control to generate energy for the battery.

Even on the freeway, at 70 mph, I get ~50mpg.
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:18 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 31):
Direct Drive:

That is direct drive meaning that the turbine itself delivers power to a transmission that delivers power to the wheels, as in the Chrysler Turbine Car and M1 tank. The turbine would not be constant speed (which is a hurdle, but didn't seem to hinder either of the examples above). The other option is a series hybrid where the turbine engine would power a generator. This option would allow the turbine to run at a constant speed, but would require an electrical storage medium which these days usually means heavy, bulky batteries.
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comorin
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:51 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Quoting comorin (Reply 31):
Direct Drive:

That is direct drive meaning that the turbine itself delivers power to a transmission that delivers power to the wheels, as in the Chrysler Turbine Car and M1 tank.

I wonder how they take care of lag due to spooling up - must be tricky driving an M1.

Anyway I a really excited that Jaguar is in the front of technology again and they will have a real winner if they can make it work and drive well.
 
kl671
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:44 am

Quoting zkpilot (Reply 26):
In Auckland, New Zealand there are buses that are turbine powered. I can't remember if they are directly hooked up to the gearbox or if they generate electricity for electric motors.
Quoting A342 (Reply 27):
Are you really really really sure?

I was surprised to find out that DesignLine International manufactured electric buses have been in service for some 12 years now, with the first starting operations in New Zealand. These buses use a Capstone C30 microturbine with integrated generator to charge the batteries. The Capstone turbine has one moving part, and no oil system.

Baltimore ordered 21 of the latest versionof this bus, the ECOSaver IV, in 2009. NY city bus has ordered 90 and other cities are lining up to get theirs.

http://www.designlinecorporation.com/index17.htm

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/...rbine-engine-to-boost-range/page-2

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Well, if the thing is going to haul around a thousand pounds wroth of batteries, I'd rather go with a direct drive.


Langford Performance Engineering modified a Ford S-Max crossover for electric drive with a Capstone C30 "range extender" microturbine to charge the batteries. Interestingly the modifications did not increase the overall vehicle weight.

http://www.greencar.com/articles/for...ed-capstone-microturbine-power.php

Capstone have also produced a concept electric supercar.

http://www.capstoneturbine.com/news/story.asp?id=536

I did not realise there are so many vehicles currently in service or under development that are using this technology.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:08 am

Quoting kl671 (Reply 36):

Capstone have also produced a concept electric supercar.

Looks like they based it off of this kit car:

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:55 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 27):
Quoting zkpilot (Reply 26):
In Auckland, New Zealand there are buses that are turbine powered.

Are you really really really sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DesignLine_Corporation
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seb146
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
You can run an internal combustion from idle to red-line in less than a second. You can't do that with a turbine without risking a surge.

So? I don't understand why people are giddy over how fast a car can go 0-60 or 0-100. A regular car on a regular day under regular conditions will not need that kind of take-off. The only time that would really be needed is on a track in a race. Why is that important?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
Vodka-Electric car

What a waste of perfectly good vodka! (Unless you use HRD vodka, then by all means....)
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:30 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
A regular car on a regular day under regular conditions will not need that kind of take-off. The only time that would really be needed is on a track in a race. Why is that important?

Because not everybody in the world drives like an old lady to church       
Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
What a waste of perfectly good vodka! (Unless you use HRD vodka, then by all means....)

Come to think of it, moonshine might give it better performance 
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:01 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 31):
So how do you control the loading on the constant-speed turbine?

I'm far from being knowledgable in electric propulsion, but I believe a constant speed AC generator powering an AC motor would be more efficient. Either the turbine remains at a constant speed thorugh a (very sensitive and quick, most likely electronic) governor, as is done on constant speed turboprop engines, or through a Constant Speed Drive, as on aircraft jet engines, though the latter would most likely add bulk and complexity.

Constant speed would probably be the way to go since turbines don't like to be started/spun up/spun down/stopped all the time.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Well, until you need to replace the batteries.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
This option would allow the turbine to run at a constant speed, but would require an electrical storage medium which these days usually means heavy, bulky batteries.

In this case, since the electricity is generated in situ by the turbine driven generator, the batteries would only act as a capacitor to absorb the extra energy generated and aid in delivering some back while the turbine/generator tries to keep up with demand. It wouldn't need as much batteries a hybrid car

...probably.

Or why not think up a mechanical energy capacitor involving a spinning mass, as was briefly done in F1 with the KERS system, before the debacle.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
seb146
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:05 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 40):
Because not everybody in the world drives like an old lady to church

Was that you behind me yesterday flipping me the bird? 

Seriously, though, why does it matter how a car can do "off the line?" What good is that for a soccer/hockey mom? I drive a PT and it moves forward. I don't care if it beats a Corvette or GTO off the line. I am just glad it goes and I look good doing it.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:07 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):

So? I don't understand why people are giddy over how fast a car can go 0-60 or 0-100. A regular car on a regular day under regular conditions will not need that kind of take-off. The only time that would really be needed is on a track in a race. Why is that important?

We're not talking about drag-racing teenagers here.

You're at a stoplight in front of an empty intersection. You look in the rearview mirror and there's a semi-truck bearing straight down on you at Warp 5.
If you have to wait 3 seconds for your turbine to get up to speed, than other 3 while the electronic clutch gently engages so as to not stall the turbine, you'll be dead.

Not to mention how annoying it would be to drive a car that has a delay of a few seconds before it can even start to accelerate. (Oh, wait, that would be the Hummer H2 I tried driving this weekend! I swear I counted to "3" before the engine actually kicked in!)
-Doc Lightning-

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Fly2HMO
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RE: Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car

Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:59 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
I drive a PT

A pitty cruiser? I'm so sorry     

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
Was that you behind me yesterday flipping me the bird?

Nah, I'm the honk-the-horn-till-it-burns-out type 
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):

You're at a stoplight in front of an empty intersection. You look in the rearview mirror and there's a semi-truck bearing straight down on you at Warp 5.
If you have to wait 3 seconds for your turbine to get up to speed, than other 3 while the electronic clutch gently engages so as to not stall the turbine, you'll be dead.

I was just thinking of an example just around those lines. I've been specially watchful of my rear mirror lately with my new car. Already had a few scares.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
(Oh, wait, that would be the Hummer H2 I tried driving this weekend! I swear I counted to "3" before the engine actually kicked in!)

Even worse: any crap econobox with a CVT tranny. The Dodge Caliber with a CVT is horrid.

While in theory CVT transmissions can accelerate much faster than regular trannies (F1 cars were gonna have them at one point), car makers only put them in for efficiency reasons and tune them for best mileage, which results in ridiculously low gear ratios and sluggish acceleration.

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