jfk69
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Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:57 pm

White House Press Correspondent had some interesting things to say this week regarding Jews........Thoughts?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ny-poland/?fbid=Ias6uV-PQG0&hpt=T2
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:05 pm

"All blacks should go back to Africa"

Would I still have a job, as a major news reporter, if I openly said that?

As someone who is Jewish, I am not surprised that her comments have received little attention. Had it been the comment above, the public explosion would have created a situation where it would be impossible for Reuters to keep her on staff. But it's cool to hate Jews/Israel/etc. and because of what is happening in the Eastern Mediterranean with the flotilla, some people are willing to forgive her ugly comments. It's rather bullsh*t.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
jfk69
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:20 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
"All blacks should go back to Africa"

Would I still have a job, as a major news reporter, if I openly said that?

As someone who is Jewish, I am not surprised that her comments have received little attention. Had it been the comment above, the public explosion would have created a situation where it would be impossible for Reuters to keep her on staff. But it's cool to hate Jews/Israel/etc. and because of what is happening in the Eastern Mediterranean with the flotilla, some people are willing to forgive her ugly comments. It's rather bullsh*t.

  

Could not agree more....many us Jews need a Rev. Al !!
 
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N328KF
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:26 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 2):
Could not agree more....many us Jews need a Rev. Al !!

Al Sharpton is not someone who you should be looking at as a role model. You need a Jewish Bill Cosby. Oh wait, that's Jerry Seinfeld.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:27 pm

She is no longer a hard new reporter (if she ever was one), only a columnist, and her being given a favored status given a front seat at White House press events was dubious at best. She has as much business being there as Rush Limbaugh or Bill Maher.

The White House should revoke her membership of the White House press pool.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:32 pm

Helen Thomas huh. No surprise there. She's no journalist, just a hag with a big mouth who likes to hear herself talk.

"Her apology" on her website IMHO, is not sincere. She's just backtrackin'! She said she “deeply” regretted her comments.

No Thomas, you don't. But I hope one day soon you will...........ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT LINE!

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):



Well said UH60, well said!

Just my   
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Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:38 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
"All blacks should go back to Africa"
Would I still have a job, as a major news reporter, if I openly said that?

It would be a totally different statement since black americans are not occupying the USA or oppressing its population against their will (that bizarre idea can be left to crazy white supremacists and some of the teabaggers) but (most of) their ancestors have instead been abducted from Africa as slaves.

Thomas' statement is very harsh and could certainly not be implemented by force, but the comparison with black americans is just totally unrelated to her point.
 
us330
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
It would be a totally different statement since black americans are not occupying the USA or oppressing its population against their will (that bizarre idea can be left to crazy white supremacists and some of the teabaggers) but (most of) their ancestors have instead been abducted from Africa as slaves

Okay, then let's change it to all Hmong should go back to Laos (the hmong in the U.S. fled the ethnic cleansing policy of the Pathet Lao) or change it to all hispanics should go back to Mexico/Latin America...Still has the same effect.

What about the sephardic Jews--the Jews whose homes were in arab lands, and were citizens of those countries, before they had their citizenship revoked and were forcibly expelled--should they be forced to go back to Iran, Morocco, Egypt?

Thomas doesn't realize that for people who were born and raised in Israel, Israel is their home. They don't know europe. They are Israeli Jews of ashkenazi heritage.

Why you would even attempt to excuse such a comment by bringing in the Israel-Palestine situation is beyond me. Thomas would have been fine if she just would have said "Israel needs to get out of Palestine" but she didn't. She decided to go further, and she did indeed cross the line into anti-Semitic territory.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:13 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
It would be a totally different statement since black americans are not occupying the USA or oppressing its population against their will (that bizarre idea can be left to crazy white supremacists and some of the teabaggers) but (most of) their ancestors have instead been abducted from Africa as slaves.

Sure, totally different from Jews wanting to leave countries that historically despised them and would declare open season on them every couple of decades.

As a German, how would you feel about a few million Israelis coming back to Germany?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:55 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
Okay, then let's change it to all Hmong should go back to Laos (the hmong in the U.S. fled the ethnic cleansing policy of the Pathet Lao) or change it to all hispanics should go back to Mexico/Latin America...Still has the same effect.

The issue would be the situation of the occupying population (if there was actually (still) an occupation going on). Without the occupation and all its fallout, hardly anybody would object to Israel as it is.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
Thomas doesn't realize that for people who were born and raised in Israel, Israel is their home.

Thomas apparently spoke up unfiltered and obviously deeply frustrated about the situation. It didn't look or sound like a thought-through proposal.

That being said, the depth of the roots people have in their country matters, the more the deeper they go. Which is one of the reasons why the israeli settler movement is aggressively pushing for the erection of additional settlements and the further displacement of palestinians.

The native americans have suffered a similar fate: Basically most if not all of the USA is really an occupation regime – the natives have just been weakened and the illegal immigrants established themselves to the point of the occupiers actually becoming natives on their own. It is a tragic development in many respects, but the longer this goes on and the more marginalized the original natives become, the easier it gets to simply disregard the way the situation has come about.

The israeli hardliners like Sharon, Netanyahu and Liebermann obviously aim at this kind of "resolution".

What is being done to the occupied population now is certainly a moral issue, but presently burning moral issues have a long, long history of gradually turning into historical tragedies which at some point become irrevocable by their sheer momentum.

The momentum that helped create the modern Israel was in turn created by the pogroms throughout (mostly european) history ultimately culminating in the Holocaust – but as understandable as that creation has been, it has unfortunately created a new tragedy in its wake.

Looking primarily for guilt is usually shortsighted, but I think it would be a severe mistake to ignore how much of the same energy is still driving the current conflict as it has done in earlier times, if indirect, but sometimes with eerily similar overtones.

The Likud/Settler approach to the conflict is obviously headed towards violent confrontation, as are at least parts of the palestinian leaders. But merely digging deeper trenches and lobbing heavier grenades clearly won't get anybody anywhere.

A real, sincere acknowledgment of the fundamental rights of the other is absolutely inevitable, the problem is that the leaders don't seem up to it at this point. Many earlier chances have been destroyed by radicals on both sides, but that still doesn't make the destructive approach any more viable – it has only one possible outcome, just in two different possible directions, and neither is an acceptable one.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Sure, totally different from Jews wanting to leave countries that historically despised them and would declare open season on them every couple of decades.

That comparison would be closer to the palestinian side today. Israel is not being occupied, it is the occupier.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
As a German, how would you feel about a few million Israelis coming back to Germany?

If it solved the whole mid-east mess in one stroke? I think that would be worth pretty much any effort, even just in our own self-interest.

The whole EU would not have much of a problem accomodating them. Drop in a bucket. (Israel is participating in the Eurovision Song Contest already anyway! )

It would of course not be a walk in the park – exept if you compare it to a continuation of the catastrophic situation as it is now.

Compared to that, it would be no problem at all.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:58 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
As someone who is Jewish, I am not surprised that her comments have received little attention.

In the same boat, but I'm a little more surprised than you considering some of our brethren must be above her in the Hearst food chain.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
Thomas would have been fine if she just would have said "Israel needs to get out of Palestine" but she didn't. She decided to go further, and she did indeed cross the line into anti-Semitic territory.

Exactly - she was right until she crossed that line. Israeli-born Jews will always have a home in the US, but they don't feel that way about it, and she clearly doesn't care.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:14 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):

If it solved the whole mid-east mess in one stroke? I think that would be worth pretty much any effort, even just in our own self-interest.

If I were Jewish, I'd probably reply by saying, "History has shown us that we cannot trust such statements"

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):

The native americans have suffered a similar fate: Basically most if not all of the USA is really an occupation regime – the natives have just been weakened and the illegal immigrants established themselves to the point of the occupiers actually becoming natives on their own. It is a tragic development in many respects, but the longer this goes on and the more marginalized the original natives become, the easier it gets to simply disregard the way the situation has come about.

By the same logic, the Jews were there thousands of years ago (read your bible if you have any doubts), were forced out, and are now back. They also turned Palestine which was pretty much undeveloped into a modern state. I think they've earned the right to be there. They have fought and bled for that right under attacks that began the day after they declared themselves sovereign.

If the Palestinians want to be treated as a civilized nation, they need to first be willing to act like a civilized people.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Flighty
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
But it's cool to hate Jews/Israel/etc.

Yeah right. She is delusional and senile. She needs medical assistance not reeducation. It's too late for her.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
anti-Semitic territory.

Anti-Zionist, certainly. Anti-Semitic, in my opinion that's not the same thing. One could argue they are the same, but that typically ends up being a jive and ridiculous argument.
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
If it solved the whole mid-east mess in one stroke? I think that would be worth pretty much any effort, even just in our own self-interest.

If I were Jewish, I'd probably reply by saying, "History has shown us that we cannot trust such statements"

Most jews don't trust the israeli government enough to actually move there either.

But it's obviously not my offer to make anyway.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
By the same logic, the Jews were there thousands of years ago (read your bible if you have any doubts),

All parts of the bible are so heavily stuffed with propaganda (like most religious texts) that I would be extremely cautious about that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
were forced out,

It doesn't exactly seem to be really clear if that was actually the case, but the point is moot anyway – that far in the past it is completely meaningless as an excuse to invade a country and displace the people who had moved there in the intervening centuries.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
and are now back. They also turned Palestine which was pretty much undeveloped into a modern state. I think they've earned the right to be there. They have fought and bled for that right under attacks that began the day after they declared themselves sovereign.

Everybody has some right to be where they happen to be at any moment – even illegal immigrants do. The relevance, persistence and validity in case of conflicting rights is the point.

And the forcible expulsion of people living in a place for centuries would require a highly substantial position in that regard which nobody could have as it is; Entering Palestine as traumatized refugees from one of the worst persecutions in history gave any jew an immediate moral right to be safe – the problem is that some of the refugees turned this situation into a brutal expulsion and subsequent occupation and suppression of any resistance, which not just in my eyes wasn't covered by the universal human right of safe refuge.

Historical tragedies have a tendency to procreate – and the Holocaust most certainly has. The mid-east conflict is its direct offspring, still living on the energy of its parent disaster.

Finding out which of the two sides today is "good" and which is "evil" is entirely beside the point – neither label really fits either side (although one could make the case of the radical leaders on both sides being pretty close to earning the "evil" designation).

That's why it would take grownups with real moral authority to break up the grand-scale playground brawl (by the level of maturity exhibited by most of the combatants) and to put a constructive end to this mess.

Neither side can end up oppressing the other in the long run – that could never be a viable solution. So the first order of the day would be ditching the extremist leaders on both sides without the stupid excuses we've been hearing for decades now. And the party in possession of the bigger guns should normally start acting like an adult. But with lunatics like Liebermann in the government, there's very little chance of that ever happening.

Coming down hard to a completely pragmatic level, maybe Israel should introduce a reasonable election margin, such as 5% of electoral votes before gaining actual parliament seats to cut off the lunatic splinter parties and to force politicians to create more sustainable and more responsible positions. This alone might be able to alter the landscape of the conflict considerably.
 
D L X
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:41 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
I am not surprised that her comments have received little attention.

What are you talking about? It's been all over the news. Not bad for something that came to light on a friday afternoon. (I mean, the article you're reading is on CNN, is it not?)

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
But it's cool to hate Jews/Israel/etc

Please don't lump the two together.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The White House should revoke her membership of the White House press pool.

I thought the same thing for a while, but I'll tell you why I changed my mind. I agree with a reporter this morning that noted that it is a very dangerous precedent to ban someone from the White House, a government entity, because you don't like what they say. I mean, I'm sure that Fox News has done more damage to the Obama administration than this nutcase Helen Thomas has, but obviously, banning Fox News would be a very very poor idea, and possibly even unconstitutional.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
Thomas apparently spoke up unfiltered and obviously deeply frustrated about the situation. It didn't look or sound like a thought-through proposal.

Baloney. When someone makes an outburst like that, it's usually because that outburst has been on someone's mind for quite a while. You don't angrily bark out something that you don't actually believe. (That's so true that in the United States, it's an exception to the hearsay rule - an "excited utterance" can be introduced as evidence in a court of law, even though it is unsworn.)
 
ATTart
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:45 pm

If people don't want to hear the answer, then don't ask the question. I am not saying I like what she had to say and I don't. But she gave her answer and that is how she feels. This is a country where we are allowed to express our views, be it popular or not. There are things that are said by others, and I do speak up against it. But it is there right to say those things. Just like it is my right to speak up against it. I am sorry I don't want to live in a country where I am not allowed to express my views. To live in fear, if I say something someone else does not like. that I could be censored or worse. With freedom of speech you have to take the good with the bad.
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
When someone makes an outburst like that, it's usually because that outburst has been on someone's mind for quite a while. You don't angrily bark out something that you don't actually believe.

I didn't say it was the opposite of what she thinks, it just looked unfiltered, off the cuff, without any larger context and probably just one of many thoughts she'd have on the matter.

That's a difference.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):

If it solved the whole mid-east mess in one stroke? I think that would be worth pretty much any effort, even just in our own self-interest.

....

It would of course not be a walk in the park – exept if you compare it to a continuation of the catastrophic situation as it is now.

Compared to that, it would be no problem at all.

I see a problem with that response. Quite frankly, it seems to evidence some antisematic feelings. Why the hell would someone's religion and race even matter to you? If someone told me that a Jew was moving in next door to me, my response would be "SO?" I wouldn't say "Ok if it would help things" as if having Jews around you is some sort of burden that has to be analyzed in a cost/benefit matrix.
 
jfk69
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:16 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Most jews don't trust the israeli government enough to actually move there either.

Do you know this for a fact? I know many people who would love to move there but it is the economy holding them back.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
But it's cool to hate Jews/Israel/etc

Please don't lump the two together.

You have to lump the two together. For starters Israel is the "Jewish" homeland. Second, she said "Jews" should go back to Poland and Germany. She didn't say the Israeli's ....she said JEWS!!!!

It is cool for her to have an agenda about Israel, that is her freedom and right to voice her opinion on that, but when you start spewing anti Semitic hate, then you lose your job.
 
Newark777
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:22 pm

She just announced her retirement.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ATTart
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:23 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 18):
but when you start spewing anti Semitic hate, then you lose your job.

No she should not, she was asked the question and she gave her answer. Again if a person don't want to hear the answer, then don't ask the question. Again, I don't like what she had to say. but it is her right. It is called freedom of speech!!

Do, you want to live in a censored country?

[Edited 2010-06-07 09:25:32]
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 17):
I see a problem with that response. Quite frankly, it seems to evidence some antisematic feelings. Why the hell would someone's religion and race even matter to you? If someone told me that a Jew was moving in next door to me, my response would be "SO?" I wouldn't say "Ok if it would help things" as if having Jews around you is some sort of burden that has to be analyzed in a cost/benefit matrix.

That specificity also comes up whenever rememberance of the victims of the nazi regime is being discussed in Germany today, and this is a valid consideration.

But the current problem with Israel has a built-in specificity as well – it is in some respects a democracy merged with a jewish theocracy, with special rights for just one religion, this religion in turn providing the foundation for the political, economic and military occupation regime.

So while an offer like the one discussed above is obviously not really on the table and thus no reason to split too many hairs about it, the proposal by Dreadnought of course links back to the nazi persecution of specifically the jews which specifically gave the impetus for the mass-invasion of Palestine in turn creating the reality of the occupation today.

Jews actually have received special immigration rights in Germany already, primarily from the former Soviet Union, so the idea is not as completely outlandish as one might think. The german jewish communities have seen a significant influx of immigrants because of it, including many people who newly discovered their being jewish or who had never actually practiced the religion.

It's still not been a matter of major dispute. There's no possibility of compensating for bygone atrocities committed against other people of the same faith, but offering jews in a difficult situation a hand still feels proper in the context of post-war german policies.

So this specificity is not necessarily discriminatory in the sense you were aiming at – Israel is ostensibly the jewish state, with all the repercussions for non-jewish citizens and even more so non-citizens in the occupied regions.

Resolving the conflict will necessarily have to do with a change in the special status of jews in the region. And be it just turning occupiers with overriding rights to any piece of land into regular citizens who just happen to be jews.

Is there a way around touching such status questions in any way? I don't see one, and I don't think that perception by itself is anti-jewish.
 
Newark777
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting ATTart (Reply 20):
No she should not,

It's up to the boss to decide that, not any of us. If you say something publicly that can embarrass or hurt your employer (especially if you are well-known or famous), it only makes sense that you won't have a job much longer. It's not about censorship, it's about an employer trying to save its public image.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ATTart
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:32 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 22):
It's up to the boss to decide that, not any of us. If you say something publicly that can embarrass or hurt your employer (especially if you are well-known or famous), it only makes sense that you won't have a job much longer. It's not about censorship, it's about an employer trying to save its public image.

This we can agree on..

[Edited 2010-06-07 09:33:41]
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:34 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 18):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Most jews don't trust the israeli government enough to actually move there either.

Do you know this for a fact? I know many people who would love to move there but it is the economy holding them back.

Well, the numbers seem to bear it out as far as I know – there's still just a minority of jews living in Israel, ritual pledges notwithstanding. And the economic situation seems to be just one of many factors holding people back.

I don't really see why having been born into a certain religion should automatically mandate one to move to a different country, but then I've never said they should.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 19):
She just announced her retirement.

Probably a smart move when you can't help blurting out undiplomatic statements like that.
 
D L X
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:36 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 18):
You have to lump the two together. For starters Israel is the "Jewish" homeland.

NO! You do not have to lump "Jew" and "Israel" together. That's probably the biggest thing that drags down debate about the topic in this country, because certain flammable people believe that any and all criticism against Israeli action is anti-semitism. That's fundamentally untrue, and yet, that belief is all too common. So common that I simply refuse to talk to most of my Jewish friends about Israel, including my girlfriend. It's the third rail, but it does not need to be.

However, that last paragraph should not be read to mean that I don't find Thomas' comments despicable. They were, and they were because they attacked Jews, not the country, but the ethnic group.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 19):
She just announced her retirement.

About 10 years too late, in my opinion. WAY overdue. The amount of deference this irrelevant woman has garnered over the years is disgusting.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:41 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 17):
I see a problem with that response. Quite frankly, it seems to evidence some antisematic feelings. Why the hell would someone's religion and race even matter to you? If someone told me that a Jew was moving in next door to me, my response would be "SO?" I wouldn't say "Ok if it would help things" as if having Jews around you is some sort of burden that has to be analyzed in a cost/benefit matrix.

I love how you chose to leave out the one sentence (and only that sentence) in that quote that makes it clear to pretty much everyone that Klaus was referring to the 'burden' of having to accommodate a few million extra people all at once, and not in any way to them being Jewish. Some people really will go out of their way to try and find anti-semitism where none is to be found...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
If the Palestinians want to be treated as a civilized nation, they need to first be willing to act like a civilized people.

That works both ways. Treat someone like a dog, and they'll start acting like one. Israel's policies haven't exactly been helping much to get the Palestinians to act 'civilized'...
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):
Klaus was referring to the 'burden' of having to accommodate a few million extra people all at once, and not in any way to them being Jewish.

Indeed: Them being jewish potentially being the reason for admission, not them being a burden because of being jews, if that should actually have needed any clarification.

As long as somebody's religion isn't abused to attack or discriminate anybody else, I don't really care which imaginary entity they believe in or which different rituals they use to worship the same one.
 
D L X
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:53 pm

Wait, I thought this thread was about Helen Thomas, not Israel vs. Palestine vs. Germany vs. Poland...
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:56 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):

That works both ways. Treat someone like a dog, and they'll start acting like one. Israel's policies haven't exactly been helping much to get the Palestinians to act 'civilized'...

I suggest you read up a little on a couple of people by the names of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. If Indians and African-American thought and acted the way the Palestinians have, India might still be part of Britain and the Civil Rights movement in the US might not have taken hold.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:01 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Wait, I thought this thread was about Helen Thomas, not Israel vs. Palestine vs. Germany vs. Poland...

Her quote is perceived as being outrageous for proposing jews to leave Israel for these other countries, so isn't it relevant if this idea is actually outrageous and if so, why?

Of course she stepped on a huge taboo which promptly blew up in her face, but as long as cynicism or hate-mongering don't get out of hand, I think it is valid to question not just her statement but also the criticism of it.

Taboos often have a valid core, but every once in a while it can be a good idea to check out what that valid core actually is – and what isn't.
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
I suggest you read up a little on a couple of people by the names of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. If Indians and African-American thought and acted the way the Palestinians have, India might still be part of Britain and the Civil Rights movement in the US might not have taken hold.

That argument has merit – but it is not absolute. Or would you denounce the founders of the United States for not sticking to non-violent resistance against the colonial powers?

Or is the difference that they actually won their fight?

Would we have a different view on history if the european jews had been able to put up a major armed resistance against the nazis, possibly committing atrocities of their own in the process? What if they had won their freedom that way? What if they still hadn't?

I'm not trying to be polemic just for the sake of it - but I think it is important to consider carefully where the actual distinctions lie that separate our ideas of villains from heroes and how perceptions can change depending on the outcome and on the point from which you're looking at them...
 
Venus6971
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:12 pm

Well Helen retired, it is too bad that someone with a broad and long career goes out this way and I guess with her going to pasture this will will mark the end of women who were not blessed with good looks making the big time in video journalism. I'm not sorry to see her go as our politics's are polar opposites but I don't like to see this on anybody unless they are a criminal or politician. I imagine she will keep working for employers who have no love of Israel or go home and fade real quick because she has no purpose to get out of bed in the morning at her advanced age.
Now back to my good looks qoute, will a future woman in her early twenties endowed with the same looks as Helen ever get a job with a major news outlet or to expand the scope even in any high corporate job?
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Derico
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:19 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):

What about the sephardic Jews--the Jews whose homes were in arab lands, and were citizens of those countries, before they had their citizenship revoked and were forcibly expelled--should they be forced to go back to Iran, Morocco, Egypt?

This is why using ''historical'' reasons for justifying modern policies or developments is so dangerous.

To me, in the case of Israel, the existence of Israel is justified by modern developments and not by (what too many people I believe incorrectly use), some 2,000 year old historical legacy of the existence of a jewish nation-state prior to the Romanization of the Near East.

Israel exists because modern settlers fought for their independence, and achieved it. End of story. Life is not fair, and in this case wasn't for the Arabs living in that area, but you need to overcome.

If we are going to use historical nationhood as reasons for modern policy, then those that do in the Americas should be prepared to pick up their belongings and leave the New World immediately, because I assume they should be for restoring the old original nations, of the natives of the continent.
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting ATTart (Reply 20):
No she should not, she was asked the question and she gave her answer. Again if a person don't want to hear the answer, then don't ask the question. Again, I don't like what she had to say. but it is her right. It is called freedom of speech!!

Do, you want to live in a censored country?

All Muslims should die...........Obviously that is a completely asinine statement and it would get erased here in minutes if that is what I meant, So there is freedom of speech. Say what you want but don't bitch about the repercussions.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
That argument has merit – but it is not absolute. Or would you denounce the founders of the United States for not sticking to non-violent resistance against the colonial powers?

Or is the difference that they actually won their fight?

Well Israel won during the 48 and 67 war....can they be left alone?

Quoting D L X (Reply 25):
NO! You do not have to lump "Jew" and "Israel" together. That's probably the biggest thing that drags down debate about the topic in this country, because certain flammable people believe that any and all criticism against Israeli action is anti-semitism. That's fundamentally untrue, and yet, that belief is all too common. So common that I simply refuse to talk to most of my Jewish friends about Israel, including my girlfriend. It's the third rail, but it does not need to be.

You don't have to lump "Jew" and "Israel together but you do have to lump"Israel" and Jew" together. If someone makes fun of me cause I am a Jew, that is totally separate from anything having to do with Israel. On the other hand, if you knock the state of Israel, then you run into the grey area of Anti Israel = Anti Jew. As I said before, it is the Jewish homeland. If one were to talk about Saudi Arabia, one must recognize that it is a Muslim state. This itself should go hand in hand.

I Understand your view on Israel and thought I disagree with it I respect your opinion. You are obviously smart enough to separate the two but sadly there are many many people who can't. In the US alone, very often we find backlash on Israel gets turned onto Jews (synagogues being defaced, anti semitic remarks being thrown our way). It is reality.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:34 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 33):
Israel exists because modern settlers fought for their independence, and achieved it. End of story. Life is not fair, and in this case wasn't for the Arabs living in that area, but you need to overcome.


I believe Israeli Arabs living in Israel have the same rights and privileges as their Jewish neighbors, the first troops killed in the last war with Lebanon were actually a Druze Muslim. Now if the Arabs drop the idea that Israel must be destroyed we might have a break through in peace. But until then Israel must adopt these harsh measures to assure self preservation, if a brave Arab stands up and embraces the words of Gandhi and MLK and makes peace with the Israeli then we will have peace. But in the Arab world these type of people meet with a horrible fate deemed upon them by their own people.
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Thread starter):
White House Press Correspondent had some interesting things to say this week regarding Jews........Thoughts?

Not a bright thing to say t probably looking for publicity, well she got it .

Quoting D L X (Reply 25):
NO! You do not have to lump "Jew" and "Israel" together. That's probably the biggest thing that drags down debate about the topic in this country, because certain flammable people believe that any and all criticism against Israeli action is anti-semitism.

Agreed . The whole using the ''anti - semitism'' card for everything and anything is getting tiring. I just ignore it now to be honest like millions of others. The ''anit -semitism'' card is more common than those free toys you get with McDonalds Happy Meals.
 
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 34):
All Muslims should die...........Obviously that is a completely asinine statement and it would get erased here in minutes if that is what I meant, So there is freedom of speech. Say what you want but don't bitch about the repercussions.

You are welcome to say what you want that it is your right!! I may not like it, but it is your right!!! Who, is bitching about repercussions? I am not. Again if you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.

I have more respect for people who speak their mind. I may not like what they are saying, but at least I sort of know who or type of person I am dealing with.

[Edited 2010-06-07 10:45:19]
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:48 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 35):
I believe Israeli Arabs living in Israel have the same rights and privileges as their Jewish neighbors

I guess they disagree :

Israeli Arabs plan mass rally to protest 'political persecution by security officials'

The protest comes after measures taken by security officials in recent weeks that led Arab advocacy groups to contact human rights groups abroad and diplomats in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ion-by-security-officials-1.289322
 
D L X
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:16 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 32):
Well Helen retired, it is too bad that someone with a broad and long career goes out this way and I guess with her going to pasture this will will mark the end of women who were not blessed with good looks making the big time in video journalism.

Her "career" took a nosedive when Bush was elected. As yall know, I disagreed with Bush with great frequency, but Helen Thomas's lack of professionalism was absolutely disgusting. She stopped being a journalist, and started being a pot-stirrer, but her arguments were often completely irrelevant or missed the point.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 32):
I'm not sorry to see her go as our politics's are polar opposites but I don't like to see this on anybody unless they are a criminal or politician.

Wait.. who shares Helen Thomas' politics? By 2000, she had become quite an extremist, the butt of conservatives and a burden on liberals. Good riddance to a person who should have lost the stage long ago.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Her quote is perceived as being outrageous for proposing jews to leave Israel for these other countries, so isn't it relevant if this idea is actually outrageous and if so, why?

I think you can use that logic to discuss almost anything, most of which is clearly off topic. Fact is, 90%+ of Americans find the comment outrageous, and it's kind of on her to explain why it shouldn't be.

Except that she hates Jews.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 34):
If someone makes fun of me cause I am a Jew, that is totally separate from anything having to do with Israel. On the other hand, if you knock the state of Israel, then you run into the grey area of Anti Israel = Anti Jew.

False! If someone is critical of Israel, it almost always has to do with some action that is in no way religious. Not to get too much into a discussion of the blockade, but no one on this thread can legitimately claim that the blockade is for religious reasons, or is in any way tied to the religion. Simply put, you're completely wrong that criticizing Israel means criticizing Judaism.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 34):
As I said before, it is the Jewish homeland. If one were to talk about Saudi Arabia, one must recognize that it is a Muslim state.

And it is ridiculous to say that criticizing Saudi Arabia is criticizing Islam.
 
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:22 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):
I love how you chose to leave out the one sentence (and only that sentence) in that quote that makes it clear to pretty much everyone that Klaus was referring to the 'burden' of having to accommodate a few million extra people all at once, and not in any way to them being Jewish. Some people really will go out of their way to try and find anti-semitism where none is to be found...

The sentences I left out were:

The whole EU would not have much of a problem accomodating them. Drop in a bucket. (Israel is participating in the Eurovision Song Contest already anyway! )

But if you notice on my original post I noted their deletion with .... The reason I deleted it was I had no idea what the Eurovision Song Contest was. But even leaving those 3 sentences in, I still standby with my post. That the notion that "accommodating" Jews implies that they are a problem.
 
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
I suggest you read up a little on a couple of people by the names of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. If Indians and African-American thought and acted the way the Palestinians have, India might still be part of Britain and the Civil Rights movement in the US might not have taken hold.

I think Klaus beautifully answered that one. BTW, since you are comparing the Palestinians to the African Americans and Indians, are you now admitting that they are indeed being oppressed by the Israelis?

And the whole condescending 'I suggest you read up on' routine I can do without, thank you very much.

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 40):
But even leaving those 3 sentences in, I still standby with my post. That the notion that "accommodating" Jews implies that they are a problem.

Oh well, only goes to show that if people desperately look for ways to be offended, their imagination is limitless...
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 34):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
That argument has merit – but it is not absolute. Or would you denounce the founders of the United States for not sticking to non-violent resistance against the colonial powers?

Or is the difference that they actually won their fight?

Well Israel won during the 48 and 67 war....can they be left alone?

Stalin "won" the eastern european countries after WWII. Did you think the citizens of Poland, Hungary, Czechia, of the baltic states and all the others should just have resigned to their fate because he won "fair and square"? Is that it?

No, I think we still agree that that cannot be the sole criterion either.

You have to actually look at the situation of the local population. If they are getting oppressed, exploited and/or persecuted by an occupation force, that is an injustice which must be stopped.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 35):
I believe Israeli Arabs living in Israel have the same rights and privileges as their Jewish neighbors,

Mostly, at least in theory. In practice "arab" israeli communities get lower-class infrastructure and services; They won't get permission to marry jews and are in many ways second-class citizens. People from the occupied regions (which are thus under israeli responsibility) are effectively treated like pariahs.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Her quote is perceived as being outrageous for proposing jews to leave Israel for these other countries, so isn't it relevant if this idea is actually outrageous and if so, why?

I think you can use that logic to discuss almost anything, most of which is clearly off topic. Fact is, 90%+ of Americans find the comment outrageous, and it's kind of on her to explain why it shouldn't be.

I think in a free society it should indeed be allowed to discuss almost anything, and few issues are as crucial as the mid-east conflict.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Except that she hates Jews.

Rubbish. I have no idea if she does, but not least for her being one herself I seriously doubt it. Her statement does not allow any such conclusion, not by a long shot.

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 40):
I still standby with my post. That the notion that "accommodating" Jews implies that they are a problem.

That would clearly be the exact opposite of what I've actually said.
Every hotel provides accommodaton for their customers. Are they "anti-customer" because of that?  

Come on! You've really gone overboard.

This is my actual statement:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
The whole EU would not have much of a problem accomodating them. Drop in a bucket. (Israel is participating in the Eurovision Song Contest already anyway! )

It would of course not be a walk in the park – exept if you compare it to a continuation of the catastrophic situation as it is now.

Compared to that, it would be no problem at all.

All that in the context of a fictitious massive relocation undertaking which would of course be stressful for all involved.
 
Klaus
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Except that she hates Jews.

Rubbish. I have no idea if she does, but not least for her being one herself I seriously doubt it. Her statement does not allow any such conclusion, not by a long shot.

After a re-check, I have to correct myself: I don't remember where I had picked that up, but I probably confused her with someone else. Apparently she's been raised as an orthodox christian.

Which gives her statement a different background, but still doesn't fundamentally alter what she actually said.
 
D L X
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:55 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Except that she hates Jews.

Rubbish. I have no idea if she does, but not least for her being one herself I seriously doubt it. Her statement does not allow any such conclusion, not by a long shot.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
After a re-check, I have to correct myself: I don't remember where I had picked that up, but I probably confused her with someone else. Apparently she's been raised as an orthodox christian.

Which gives her statement a different background, but still doesn't fundamentally alter what she actually said.

Noted.

It's circumstantial evidence for sure, but the evidence is adding up that she does not like Jews. I used to believe she was Jewish as well back in the day, but then the evidence started coming in. But these are my conjectures. I hope everyone decides for themselves and doesn't just take my word for it. Surely this outburst should be good evidence for most.
 
PSA53
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:05 pm

I was shock and very sadden to hear this from Ms. Thomas.Although I never cared for Thomas that much,she was a WH fixture in the press core for God,who knows how long.I bet before the comments, and had she retired uneventful,she would have been adorned by her fellow WH,DC reporters and all surviving POTUS as one of the finest on WH beat.

Now,she crashes and slips into infamous.And further insult to Thomas,most are saying FOX news will get her seat.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:08 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
I think Klaus beautifully answered that one. BTW, since you are comparing the Palestinians to the African Americans and Indians, are you now admitting that they are indeed being oppressed by the Israelis?

I'd say yes, they are being oppressed - for damned good reasons.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
You have to actually look at the situation of the local population. If they are getting oppressed, exploited and/or persecuted by an occupation force, that is an injustice which must be stopped.

Note how every time the Israelis give them something, like the Gaza withdrawal, the whole Oslo agreement and so forth Israel gets bombs and rockets in return. Damn right they need more oppression, not less, until the day that they prove that they can live side by side with Israel without acting like sociopaths.
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 45):
I bet before the comments, and had she retired uneventful,she would have been adorned by her fellow WH,DC reporters and all surviving POTUS as one of the finest on WH beat.

Hardly. She may have been good a century ago but she's a poster-girl for how stupid the press could be for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZE4E7JKSk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEpj7tUdNdo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8F1iAc9U0E&feature=player_embedded

Here's one of my favorites when Tony Snow thanked her for providing the view of Hezbollah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICq2AuxYTTE&feature=player_embedded

All these are funny and show her for the ignorant fool she is but this latest one should be last nail in the coffin.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
A332
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:18 pm

Until the Palestinians and their anti-Semitic sympathizers swallow the fact that Israel is not going anywhere, this hateful/spiteful nonsense is going to continue.

Telling the Jews to leave Israel is like telling Americans & Canadians alike to pack up and go back to where they came from, because really, the land belonged to someone else.

There is not a chance in hell that the North American populace is going to vacate, hand over everything to the natives and go back to Europe/Asian/etc... so why does the anti-Israel/anti-Semite crowd have the same expectation of Israel?

Pretty hypocritical.
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dxing
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RE: Helen Thomas: Jews Should Go Back To Poland Etc...

Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:31 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 19):
She just announced her retirement.

I think she had it announced for her.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37555003/ns/politics?GT1=43001

Veteran White House reporter Helen Thomas is retiring in the wake of controversial comments she made about Israel.

Hearst News Service, for which Thomas is a columnist, reported her retirement announcement Monday.



You can lump her in with the likes of Jimmy the Greek and Ben Wright as a person who was well respected until they opened their mouthes when a simple "no comment" would have sufficed.
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