UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
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Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:35 pm

A few months ago there was a heated discussion over a released 2007 gun video, showing an AH-64 firing on a group of suspected armed insurgents (it was later discovered that the man was not carrying an RPG, but rather a large camera). I wanted to simply update the original thread, but it was locked.

Just an update on the story, the Army soldier who illegally released the classified video to Wikileaks, has been arrested.

Quote:
Spc. Bradley Manning, an Army intelligence analyst, is reportedly the source of the 2007 video that the website Wikileaks dubbed "Collateral Murder" when it released the video online in early April.
....
According to Wired, the Army zeroed in on Manning after a he boasted to a former computer hacker he was chatting with online that he was the source of the video, which recorded an Apache attack on a group of men it believed were insurgents only a few blocks from where American troops were engaged in combat.
....
According to Wired,, Manning also leaked other materials to Wikileaks, including a 2009 video showing an air strike on Garani, Afghanistan, a classified Army document that concluded Wikileaks to be a security threat, and a batch of some 260,000 diplomatic cables that Manning reportedly claimed exposed "almost criminal political back dealings." Those cables have not been published, according to Wired.
http://www.military.com/news/article...-murder-video-leaker-arrested.html
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:17 pm

No matter how you feel about the content of the video, if you leak secret military information, you can't complain when you're eventually arrested.

On a similar topic, this is an excellent article on this Wikileaks video, and is also a biographical piece on their founder Julian Assange:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
dl021
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:23 am

The guy who turned him in is slightly worried that he's now considered a "rat" by his fellow hackers, but he knows that he's done the right thing for himself, his family, his nation and even the leaker.

Whatever your motivations leaking classifed military information bears a cost, and if you're violating your oath then you need to pay the price. Some people will claim that leaks like this are necessary to keep the truth out there, and the UCMJ would require a serviceman or woman to report crimes and disobey unlawful orders, but this guy simply sent a bunch of classified docs and photos to be spread anywhere regardless of the harm brought to his own nation. And in spite of that he didn't know the entire story.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
MD-90
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:27 am

Pretty stupid to go bragging about it online.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:46 am

Leaking classified material while in the employment of the armed forces is nothing short of a treasonous act.

I hope the full weight of the law if applied here.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TheCol
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:15 am

If the court martial finds him guilty, then they should lock him up for the better portion of his life. Such behavior is a clear violation of national security.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

  
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:31 am

I remember the old days when war was not mini-series you watched on TV.

All these people that leak classified videos and pictures, should be dealt with in the harshest manor. In war, mistakes and bad things happen. When stuff like this leaks, it causes backlash, and backlash causes hesitation, which at the wrong time, can get you, and/or others killed.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:37 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 6):
I remember the old days when war was not mini-series you watched on TV.

That's just it, this is not the "good o'l days", this is today and wars are played out on TV

Remember the invasion of Iraq, the taring down of Saddam's statue, there were cameras at every angle so no one would or could miss anything.

This is a reason why people Whistle blow and will continue to do so.

If we are going to film things this is a consequence of those actions.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 6):
In war, mistakes and bad things happen. When stuff like this leaks, it causes backlash, and backlash causes hesitation, which at the wrong time, can get you, and/or others killed.

That will continue to happen, whistle blowers or not !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:52 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
Leaking classified material while in the employment of the armed forces is nothing short of a treasonous act.

I hope the full weight of the law if applied here



Agree with this 100% ...

I was reading a article about our surveillance operations in Iraq / Afghanistan. Basically we have 247 sat and airborne "coverage " of the major cities and population centers. We can record a suicide bomb attack (in theory) and track the vehicle back to its origin via video. That is a elementary view of it but the point being we have millions of hours of video recorded... if it were to be leaked out all the time it is dangerous for our troops and other operators. Not to mention all the live operations that are forces carry out ..they are also recorded for various reasons .... these are military secrets and need to be guarded as such.

Hell yes..... hit him with a treason charge and make a clear example of him .!
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
TheCol
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:33 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
This is a reason why people Whistle blow and will continue to do so.

The guy in question isn't a "whistle blower". He did it to satisfy his own ego.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:33 am

If you don't want it out on Youtube then don't record it on camera. That is as true for you doing the nasty with your boyfriend in a hotel room as for you spraying down a bunch of civilians with 30mm ammo.
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Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:05 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
If you don't want it out on Youtube then don't record it on camera. That is as true for you doing the nasty with your boyfriend in a hotel room as for you spraying down a bunch of civilians with 30mm ammo.

That's some pretty poor logic. Most videos don't have secret protection, and most videos can't land you in jail for decades for leaking them.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:37 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 8):
Leaking classified material while in the employment of the armed forces is nothing short of a treasonous act.

I hope the full weight of the law if applied here

What if it was a German soldier in WWII who leaked out images of an SS atrocity? Or an Iraqi soldier leaking out information/images about one of Saddam's abuses?
 
Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 12):

What if it was a German soldier in WWII who leaked out images of an SS atrocity? Or an Iraqi soldier leaking out information/images about one of Saddam's abuses?

Then they would be prosecuted for treason by their respective governments.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
baroque
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:46 pm

Good to know the "Hang Daniel Ellsberg mob" are still out in force. Might be as well to remember it was trying to bring down Ellsberg not the Pentagon Papers themselves that brought Nixon down.

What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:57 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 13):
Then they would be prosecuted for treason by their respective governments.

Precisely, at which point, the US, Saddam, and Nazi governments would be indistinguishable in this regard, and those calling for punishment against the leaker, are now indistinguishable from those of SS loyalists calling for retribution against someone leaking out images of a concentration camp, since they are placing military needs above moral ones, and making judgements based purely on trying to hide military abuses/errors from the light of day.
 
Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:58 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):

What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

Why would you want videos of all of your military operations and procedures released to the public? Seems perfectly valid to me.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):

Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.

I would hope that they would acquire more evidence than just an internet admission before placing him under arrest.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:00 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 15):

Precisely, at which point, the US, Saddam, and Nazi governments would be indistinguishable in this regard, and those calling for punishment against the leaker, are now indistinguishable from those of SS loyalists calling for retribution against someone leaking out images of a concentration camp, since they are placing military needs above moral ones, and making judgements based purely on trying to hide military abuses/errors from the light of day.

He broke a law, and he is getting punished. You obviously have no love for the US military and are really grasping at straws trying to portray this soldier in a good light.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????



Tactics , communications , weapons use and effect, on board vis aid and video capability , accuracy of weapons , crew command and control ..... not to mention the mis construction of the events by the political and PR operations of the enemy.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:10 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 17):
He broke a law, and he is getting punished. You obviously have no love for the US military and are really grasping at straws trying to portray this soldier in a good light.

And love is blind. Yes?
 
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casinterest
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:21 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.

The person who linked the video has suspect moral character in the first place to not leave classified material where it belongs. The same person would probably want some sort of "Anonymous" credit.

that being said,
I am sure that they got some backing evidence when they moved in for the arrest.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
deltaownsall
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:12 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 15):
Precisely, at which point, the US, Saddam, and Nazi governments would be indistinguishable in this regard, and those calling for punishment against the leaker, are now indistinguishable from those of SS loyalists calling for retribution against someone leaking out images of a concentration camp,

Comparing US operations in Afghanistan with the Holocaust? Nice...
 
baroque
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:25 pm

Quoting newark777 (Reply 16):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):

What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

Why would you want videos of all of your military operations and procedures released to the public? Seems perfectly valid to me.

No, but one imagines that Iraqis know most of those details from first hand experience, you still have not explained what particular secrets would be in that video, other than it is inconvenient for the public to know what the military actually does.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.

The person who linked the video has suspect moral character in the first place to not leave classified material where it belongs. The same person would probably want some sort of "Anonymous" credit.

Well there was Deep Throat. Agreed he did admit finally but what 40 years after the event.

I suppose if someone states they did it, arrest might well follow, but just because someone claims the leak does not mean they did it. And I do hope that Wikileaks does not leak. I suppose the US could always start to move on the members of the Advisory board for Wikileaks if they want to become more like Stasi.

Quoting avent (Reply 15):
since they are placing military needs above moral ones, and making judgements based purely on trying to hide military abuses/errors from the light of day

   Nicely put.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

That is not the job of some E-4 (the rank is called "specialist"). I know you loath the military, but you can at least understand the need for adherence to rules and regulations? The moment an E-4 has the authority to deem what should, and should not be, classified... good order and discipline has broken down.

The problem people like you and "Avent" get into, is relating civilian standards (ie: whistle-blower status) to military matters. Adherence to rules and regulations is a bit more important than when you're working at the local fast food joint. Not to mention, classified material is protected under federal law, and there are strict procedures on how to handle it, and who can release it. He did not have that authority, and he must be punished accordingly. I'm not sure what part of that is so confusing for you?


Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.

Yeah... this is a huge conspiracy. The government is colluding to frame a lowly 22yr old E-4... good one...

Quoting avent (Reply 15):
Precisely, at which point, the US, Saddam, and Nazi governments would be indistinguishable in this regard, and those calling for punishment against the leaker, are now indistinguishable from those of SS loyalists

Just as I broke it down for Baroque: there cannot be an environment where soldiers - regardless of their rank - are free to release classified material, at their will. Just because he's your hero, doesn't absolve him of his crime, or the punishment.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
baroque
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:40 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 23):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

That is not the job of some E-4 (the rank is called "specialist"). I know you loath the military, but you can at least understand the need for adherence to rules and regulations? The moment an E-4 has the authority to deem what should, and should not be, classified... good order and discipline has broken down.

I was not aware the secrecy classifications would be done by an E-4, whatever that happens to be. Thanks for the tip. Thanks also for the mind reading session.

My problem is nothing at all to do with the military but the civilian controls that permit the military to classify such material.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 23):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Anyone wonder if someone who would brag about such a release, might not be the actual leaker. Just call me suspicious.

Yeah... this is a huge conspiracy. The government is colluding to frame a lowly 22yr old E-4... good one...

I hope you wear a parachute while jumping to conclusions from a great moral height. I simply pointed out what I am sure the authorities also realise that someone who admitted to this might not actually have been the leaker. Might not also includes the possibility of "might have" you know. It is called keeping an open mind. Of course dangerous things open minds, new thoughts could easily develop.
 
BMI727
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:50 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
If you don't want it out on Youtube then don't record it on camera. That is as true for you doing the nasty with your boyfriend in a hotel room as for you spraying down a bunch of civilians with 30mm ammo

Well, there is good reason for the military to want to record things. Intelligence is rather hard to get when the best you've got is eyewitness accounts. Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
What military secrets were being protected by keeping that video in a "classified" category? Bet there is not a good answer to that????

Completely irrelevant. It was not the leakers job to determine what should and shouldn't be classified. It was classified and he released it, which means a court martial.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
No, but one imagines that Iraqis know most of those details from first hand experience, you still have not explained what particular secrets would be in that video, other than it is inconvenient for the public to know what the military actually does.

Because putting tactics, procedures, imaging capabilities, etc. on the internet does the military no favors. Better to have too many secrets than too few.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Acheron
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:56 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 18):
Tactics , communications , weapons use and effect, on board vis aid and video capability , accuracy of weapons , crew command and control ....

Considering the amount of photage available to the public of Apaches' gun cam, I'm going to cal BS on that.

Heck, there is even an entire site devoted to it.
http://www.apacheclips.com/c/24/FLIR_Videos/

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 23):
there cannot be an environment where soldiers - regardless of their rank - are free to release classified material, at their will. Just because he's your hero, doesn't absolve him of his crime, or the punishment.

I think his point is that, if the guy what released was a video of Saddam's abuses or other similar thing, you and other would probably be aplauding him and calling him a hero for "having the balls to stepping up to that hideous -insert your favorite dictator here- regime", even if he broke just as many laws where he lived.
 
UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
I hope you wear a parachute while jumping to conclusions from a great moral height. I simply pointed out what I am sure the authorities also realise that someone who admitted to this might not actually have been the leaker. Might not also includes the possibility of "might have" you know. It is called keeping an open mind. Of course dangerous things open minds, new thoughts could easily develop

Oh give me a break... you made that comment without even bothering to get the full facts. You're suggesting that this was done simply on the evidence that he admitted to releasing the video. But that is not the case.

Read the articles that are out there. Get educated. His admitting to the leak to a friend, was only the beginning. With that tip, the authorities began an investigation of Spc Manning, and were able to gather additional evidence that pointed to his guilt.

This stuff is out there, you just gotta take the time to go read it.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
Comparing US operations in Afghanistan with the Holocaust? Nice...

If people can't stand the comparison, they shouldn't invite it.
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:42 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 23):
Just as I broke it down for Baroque: there cannot be an environment where soldiers - regardless of their rank - are free to release classified material, at their will. Just because he's your hero, doesn't absolve him of his crime, or the punishment.

So you would endorse Saddam's regime hanging an Iraqi soldier who leaked information that was embarrassing to it? I wouldn't; but I'm not a military type so I doubt if we're going to agree on this.
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 23):
That is not the job of some E-4 (the rank is called "specialist"). I know you loath the military, but you can at least understand the need for adherence to rules and regulations?

Would these same rules and regulations require accidental civilian casualties to be investigated and not designated as 'classified' in order to cover up a scandal?

So when the rules and regulations are abused to protect the military's image, that's ok, but when they are broken to reveal a cover-up, all of a sudden that's unacceptable?
 
UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:02 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 30):
Would these same rules and regulations require accidental civilian casualties to be investigated and not designated as 'classified' in order to cover up a scandal?

So when the rules and regulations are abused to protect the military's image, that's ok, but when they are broken to reveal a cover-up, all of a sudden that's unacceptable?

It's simply something you're unlikely to understand.

There cannot be an environment where lower enlisted soldiers are permitted to pick and choose which rules and regulations they want to obey. A soldier cannot choose to disregard an order, for obvious reasons (although I'm not particularly sure those reasons are quite so obvious to you).

More importantly, if we allow those lower enlisted individuals to make such decisions, it creates a question of where do you draw the line? Can he release the arming codes for missiles? Can he release the strength, and location of troops on the advance?

While I understand that the released video neatly fit into your agenda/narrative.... it does not excuse what he did. He volunteered to live and work under those restrictions, so no matter the heartburn it caused, it was not within his authority to release the video.

Lastly, under your faulty logic, why have a classification system, in the first place? If everyone is free to release the material when they personally want without fear of reprisal, then what's the point?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Newark777
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:19 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):

Don't feed the trolls.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
avent
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:19 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
It's simply something you're unlikely to understand.

If this is true, I'm sure can expect a coherent explanation from you at some point.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
There cannot be an environment where lower enlisted soldiers are permitted to pick and choose which rules and regulations they want to obey.

So lower enlisted soldiers are expected to follow the rules, but not the officer corps? That's quite an astounding claim, and is consistent with the issue: since lower enlisted soldiers do not have the authority to support a cover-up through designating the abuse as classified, only the officers can hide the abuse, and the lower enlistees cannot report the abuse.

Thanks for explaining it to us.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
More importantly, if we allow those lower enlisted individuals to make such decisions, it creates a question of where do you draw the line? Can he release the arming codes for missiles? Can he release the strength, and location of troops on the advance?

But you have no problem drawing lines between enlisted and others, since you expect the enlisted to folow the rules even as their officers abuse the rules and hide abuses through labelling them as being classified. You want the full punishment thrown at the whistle-blower and are silent about what they are reporting.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
While I understand that the released video neatly fit into your agenda/narrative

You have that exactly backwards - the military tried to suppress it by declaring it classified material - because it did not fit into their narrative.

It's no surprise to me that there will be civilian casualties in war, nor that killing becomes an adreneline laced computer game for some, so it's a stale narrative in and of itself as far as I'm concerned.
 
damirc
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:24 pm

There cannot be an environment where lower enlisted soldiers are permitted to pick and choose which rules and regulations they want to obey. A soldier cannot choose to disregard an order, for obvious reasons (although I'm not particularly sure those reasons are quite so obvious to you).

I thought that the Nürnberg (Nuremberg) trials made clear at least that this defence can and will not stand. Each and every soldier is accountable for his actions (the higher his rank, the more accountable he is for his actions), and needs to object following an order that would make him accountable in a crime. I quote: But the judges advanced a new idea--that some laws are "international moral laws." They pointed out that all people are aware of certain basic laws such as the law against murder, the law against enslavement, the law against extermination. Duty to these human laws comes before duty to any state or nation.

Now in this specific case I would say it was an unfortunate case of mistaken identity. I was however quite shocked when a civilian van was attacked. There was no threat whatsoever emanating either from the van or it's passengers (the camera and the tripod carried by 2 of the first group that was attacked were quite easy to be mistaken for an imminent threat) - and I would think that the second barrage was quite unnecessary and tantamount to murder.

I also believe, that the military also needs it's whistblowers. I will remind you of the My Lai massacre which was almost covered up had it not been for the actions of a few people who finally uncovered the massacre in it's full brutality. And however embarrassing for the US Army - it needed to be done to prove and maintain the US Army's integrity. If you want an honorable army - you need to deal with the mistakes in the open also - and not cover them up or whitewash them. It was however quite a sham when the commanding officer responsible for the 347 deaths in the end served only 4 and a half months in a military prison.

D.

[Edited 2010-06-09 16:40:10]
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:42 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
Considering the amount of photage available to the public of Apaches' gun cam, I'm going to cal BS on that.

True enough ... but you can not have active military personel emailing out stuff without permission. End of arguemnt . But then again ... we cant uphold our laws anymore either ... so hey hey what the hell put it on utube and have a ball .

What a wreck.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:31 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
True enough ... but you can not have active military personel emailing out stuff without permission. End of arguemnt . But then again ... we cant uphold our laws anymore either ... so hey hey what the hell put it on utube and have a ball .

What a wreck.

But this is not a fair statement of the problem. No one is arguing that any soldier is at liberty to put whatever they want on YouTube. We are specifically dealing with a whistle-blower issue that appears to be drawing attention to an unintentional error on the part of the military that now appears to be part of a cover-up through making the material classified. What else is being covered up in this manner? How are we to learn about the abuses if not from whistle-blowers? There are no secret nuclear launch codes being revealed here, and there is a world of difference between leaking launch codes and leaking evidence of an error/cover-up. The former is clearly treasonous, the latter a possible act of personal integrity. It is deceitful to deliberately confuse the two in order to shield corruption from accountability.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:53 am

Quoting avent (Reply 36):

All your points are totally irrelevant. This case is going to be based on the fact that this soldier in no way felt morally obligated to release the footage. If proven true, the punishment will fit the crime.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:45 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 37):

We're agreeing to not feed the troll. Best to just ignore him.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 38):
We're agreeing to not feed the troll. Best to just ignore him.

And I'll agree not to knock sanctimonious military types off their high-horses with just the teeniest puff of logic.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6059
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:16 am

Quoting avent (Reply 36):
We are specifically dealing with a whistle-blower issue that appears to be drawing attention to an unintentional error on the part of the military that now appears to be part of a cover-up through making the material classified.

What coverup?

The Army publicly reported the incident on the same day it happened, that's pretty piss poor covering up if you ask me.
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:17 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 40):
What coverup?

The Army publicly reported the incident on the same day it happened, that's pretty piss poor covering up if you ask me.

As I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it was not reported that civilians were killed as the second part of the action. And as I recall, the real embarassing issue for the military was the gung-ho bravado and computer game dialog that was on the tape, which I believe is why it was deemed 'classified' in order maintain the facade of a righteous and sanitized war being fought by heroic noble warriors. So, even if we concede that an account was offered, it does not undermine the concern about a coverup since the account was incomplete. The coverup is the attempt to suppress a record that shows an ugly side of waging war.
 
UH60FtRucker
Topic Author
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:26 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 40):
What coverup?

They covered it up. Along with the fact that Big Bird was the second shooter in Dallas.  
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Iraq Gun Video Leaker: Arrested

Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:28 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 37):
All your points are totally irrelevant. This case is going to be based on the fact that this soldier in no way felt morally obligated to release the footage. If proven true, the punishment will fit the crime.

They are not irrelevant since you concede my major point that morality is an important aspect in any kind of whistle-blower case. If this particular soldier denies a moral compunction, then he is not a whistle-blower and was stupid for releasing the footage, although I'm going to take a wait and see approach before I believe statements obtained from (possibly) poorly educated schmuck by teams of lawers, military or otherwise.

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