L410Turbolet
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US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:28 pm

BRUSSELS – US defence minister Robert Gates said that the EU's refusal to accept Turkey as a member is partly to blame for Ankara's deteriorating relations with Israel and for pushing the country into the arms of Islamic states, a suggestion firmly rejected by Brussels.
...
"I personally think that if there is anything to the notion that Turkey is, if you will, moving eastward, it is, in my view, in no small part because it was pushed, and pushed by some in Europe refusing to give Turkey the kind of organic link to the West that Turkey sought," he argued.


http://euobserver.com/9/30246

Thoughts? There is probably some causal link between reluctance to accept Turkey to the EU and its reevaluation of foreign policy priorities, but imho it only highlights how easily the EU could become hostage of unpredictable Turkey when it comes to the Middle East mess.
 
janmnastami
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:03 pm

The EU hasn't "refused to accept Turkey as a member": one day Turkey will join the EU, but this will take years and years (at least 20 or 30 years, in my opinion). The EU isn't just an economical club, it's also a political one.

If Gates wants "to give Turkey the kind of organic link to the West that Turkey sought", he could propose them to join the USA.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:41 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 1):
The EU hasn't "refused to accept Turkey as a member": one day Turkey will join the EU, but this will take years and years (at least 20 or 30 years, in my opinion). The EU isn't just an economical club, it's also a political one.

Here are the facts.

- Throughout the 90s and early 2000s, Turkey tried very hard to get accepted into the EU, and were basically told, "not now". The main concern was that 80 million Turks would suddenly flood into the rest of the EU looking for work.

- The modern Turkish state was established by Ataturk in the 20s, and his boldest and clearest thinking reform was to exterminate Islam from the political landscape in Turkey. i.e., he supported Islam as a religion, but rejected Islamism as an encroachment of religion into politics and civil law.

- The Turkish military would step in and remove any government that started to reject Ataturk's principles, and has done just that several times. That concept raises the hairs on the necks of any supporter of democratic principles, but history has shown that Turkey needed that safety net in order to preserve their secular democracy.

- Over the past decade, Islamism has been on the rise in Turkey, and the military has become more de-politicized (possibly due to reforms demanded by the EU). Turkey's secular democracy is now in serious danger.

My question is whether the EU inadvertently screwed up Turkey. They pushed Turkey to reform the military and de-politicize it, based on Western ideals that reject such intervention by the military, but France and Germany do not face a religion constantly trying to impose itself on the government. Also, did the EU's rejection of Turkish membership spur a backlash, driving secular (Europeanized) Turks into the arms of the Islamists? I think it's possible. Islamism has always been present in Turkey, but I know from personal experience (I spent a lot of time in Turkey in the 90s until around 2001) that the EU's rejection of Turkey seriously pissed them off. I can see how they might think "We tried westernization, but the West rejected us, so we'll go the other way."
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janmnastami
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Throughout the 90s and early 2000s, Turkey tried very hard to get accepted into the EU, and were basically told, "not now".

It's correct: before joining the EU, Turkey has to comply with EU's laws and principles.
 
baroque
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:20 pm

While Turkey might not be best pleased with the EU, Israel and the US have really really pissed them off. Why did they suddenly withdraw permission to invade Iraq through Turkey? A much more major issue. This change has been coming for years.

Gates needs a reality check. Well, no, I misspoke, he needs a few reality checks, not least about Afghanistan. Why not listen to your generals matey. They are telling you your political position is not helping one little bit.

http://warincontext.org/2010/03/16/i...mpowering-al-qaeda-petraeus-warns/

Do you suppose if that problem is affecting Afghanistan it is not a major factor with Turkey? Not bleeding likely. Sounds to me as if Gates is duck shovelling the problem onto a favourite whipping boy.

I had heard that Repayable Launch Investment was also a major cause of the Turkish discontent, that and the Euro and a lack of appreciation for Kemal Attaturk and support for Armenia. Anything but the real cause.
 
kaitak
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:16 pm

Does Turkey still want to join the EU? I always interpreted the response "not now" as a polite way of saying "never". Times have changed, Turkey has a different government, with different priorities, which sees itself - and Turkey - as more Islamic than European. I see Turkey manoeuvring itself to be a leader of the Islamic world and I guess that its stance on the Israel issue (particularly the flotilla business) has given it an opportunity to do this.

It cannot be good for the Turkish psyche to get rejection after rejection from the EU and understandably, this has led not just to a hardening of attitudes, but a reappraisal of how Turkey positions itself geopolitically. I don't think this reassessment is limited to the Islamists, but across the political spectrum (I don't know this for a fact, obviously, but it would be my guess!). Turkey can get a lot of the benefit from being associated with the EU, through trade and open skies agreements (and similar associations), without having to row in on other issues. Turkey seems to be doing quite well at the moment economically (well, better than its traditional rival anyway - but that's not hard!) and it probably feels that the disadvantages of being part of the EU outweigh the advantages, particularly if it can get many of those advantages without actually being a member.

So, in summary, I don't see Turkey being pushed into the arms of Islamists due to EU rejection; I just see it reassessing its objectives and priorities and deciding that EU membership really wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Better be a leader in the Islamic World than a barely tolerated "also ran" in Europe?
 
mbmbos
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:26 pm

As far as I can tell, Gates' comments represent a diversion from what has really happened: Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters and killed nine people in the process.

Turkey has every reason to be outraged as should the rest of the world.
 
lewis
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:34 pm

Turkey is trying to play an important role in the ME and has the potential to become a good mediator between the east and the west. The Israel incident and the lack of support for their initiative with Iran is not helping.

There are a lot of issues that need to be settled before Turkey is admitted in the EU. A privileged relationship is what they now get but there can still be improvements. A lot of Turks I know don't like the fact that they need a visa to visit the Greek islands since Schengen was implemented. It used to be much easier for them to take day trips from their coast.

I doubt most Turks still want to join the EU with the same passion as they did a few years ago. At least that is the idea I got when talking about it with friends.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
Turkey seems to be doing quite well at the moment economically (well, better than its traditional rival anyway - but that's not hard!

Well of course they are! They have been working with the IMF for almost a decade, have cut a few 0s from their currency and are now having a stronger economy than before. Without being locked in a single currency, most countries can do that and were doing exactly that for decades. Underneath though, the same problems exist for both countries, unorganized and inefficient government, corruption and ridiculous spending on the military. The Turkish economy still has a significant manufacturing sector, it helps a lot.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:59 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 1):
but this will take years and years (at least 20 or 30 years, in my opinion).

It has been decades already. The only issue that the EU can use to oppose Turkey is the Cyprus division. Once that's solved, there should be no objection to EU membership. My question is why do France and Germany oppose Turkey, a member of NATO and a proven ally in the Middle East?

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
Does Turkey still want to join the EU? I always interpreted the response "not now" as a polite way of saying "never". Times have changed, Turkey has a different government, with different priorities, which sees itself - and Turkey - as more Islamic than European. I see Turkey manoeuvring itself to be a leader of the Islamic world and I guess that its stance on the Israel issue (particularly the flotilla business) has given it an opportunity to do this.

And you can bet anything that when Turkey becomes a regional power, the EU will be begging for them to join. It would be foolish for Turkey to accept when they have been knocking for entry into the EU for decades. Opposing Turkey would confirm that the EU is a Christian club (we all know that, but with Turkey there we can't say for real) and would harm relations with Arab states.

I think that for a political union with 27 states (29 when Croatia and Iceland join soon), the fact of having one NAY vote that stops all procedures is a bit dictatorial and hypocritical especially when they ask from member states DEMOCRACY (as in majority rules, not unanimous or no go).
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:11 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):

It has been decades already. The only issue that the EU can use to oppose Turkey is the Cyprus division. Once that's solved, there should be no objection to EU membership. My question is why do France and Germany oppose Turkey, a member of NATO and a proven ally in the Middle East?

The big worry was that Turkey would become the most populous country in the EU as well as the poorest, leading millions of people to flood into other countries, when many countries (like Germany) already have a look to Turks living there. Remember that EU membership means your people can move and work anywhere in the EU.

Now that problem has gotten worse. Unemployment in Turkey 10 years ago was 6.5%, now it's around 15%.
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comorin
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:26 am

Our international friends may not know that NY Congressman Anthony Wiener, who has recently been critical of Turkey vis a vis Israel, infuriated an anti-semitic goat named Lancelot that bloodied him:


http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dai...einer-injured-in-press-confer.html
 
LAXintl
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:33 am

I think Gates hints at something very valid

Turkey has continually looked West, however keeps getting put down, or not being able to be treated as an equal in the eyes of many European. The notion that the EU is a "Christian Club" is becoming ever more apparent.

In turn, and since it plays well in domestic politics Turkey has started to look East more. As with the West Turkey has important trade links with nations to the East, but until recently never put major political emphasis on such relations instead downplays in deference to building ever closer Europe which seem to have done nothing but go in circles the last 10-20 years.

So the concept of a more Eastern or Islamist Turkey is very valid.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Now that problem has gotten worse. Unemployment in Turkey 10 years ago was 6.5%, now it's around 15%.

So and its 24% in Spain.
Turkey's economy has barely missed a beat and continued to grow, unlike the remainder of the Euro Zone.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:41 am

I don't think Turkey will go as far as becoming extremist a la Iran, but you can bet that when the time comes for the West to ask of Turkey, they will simply have to be left to what Turkey wants...sometimes the "eye for an eye" actions works wonders and gives us the greatest feeling ever.
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ozglobal
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:14 am

Turkey is what it is, mostly provincial traditional Islamist with an small urban Western looking population, recently interested in closer relations. Over all this is a thin veneer of secularism, already compromised by an Islamist leaning government.

If anyone is pushing Turkey it is Israel's pariah state behaviour and the US's traditional acquiescence to all they do.

Further Gates, of all people, is ill placed to understand, even less comment on what Europe should be doing. He has presided over the machinations of a barely adolescent US, not yet emerged from errors European powers made in the 18th and 19th centuries. Once the US has learnt the hard way, at our expense, the lessons and misadventures of imperialism, we'll talk.

[Edited 2010-06-10 19:15:40]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
LAXintl
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:42 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 13):
Turkey is what it is, mostly provincial traditional Islamist with an small urban Western looking population

When is the last time you visited?

You realize the "urban Western looking population" is by no means small. Istanbul alone population is about 13 million, and it larger then than the total populations of 32 provinces in the country. Add in other modern cities such as Izmir and Ankara and then the dozen plus secondary cities, the country is hardly "mostly provincial".
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MillwallSean
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):

It has been decades already. The only issue that the EU can use to oppose Turkey is the Cyprus division. Once that's solved, there should be no objection to EU membership. My question is why do France and Germany oppose Turkey, a member of NATO and a proven ally in the Middle East?

Well may i recommend some literature. www.europa.eu The standards that have to be fulfilled to join the EU are avalible for all to see.
And no Turkey doesn't fulfil half of them.
A war against the kurds is going on, Northern Cyprus hasn't been solved. the judiciary system isnt what the EU demands neither is the labour legislation, freedom of speech is limited. You name it Turkey has a long, long way to go.
This is not Germany and France, this is about meeting and fulfilling all criteria s that the EU demands.
the EU isnt a social club that admits countries to be nice and friendly.

Personally I cant see why the US cant integrate with Mexico, open its borders completely and allow free trade and be locked in a political union, letting the 110 million mexicans become part of the US, vote in elections and having the US finance Mexicos social security system...
After all you lot have the NAFTA...

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
I think that for a political union with 27 states (29 when Croatia and Iceland join soon), the fact of having one NAY vote that stops all procedures is a bit dictatorial and hypocritical especially when they ask from member states DEMOCRACY (as in majority rules, not unanimous or no go).

What one nay vote? You mean the constitution, yeah lets put it out of play. Doesn't make sense to non Europeans so we might as well get rid of it immediately.
I can guarantee you that if the people ever were to have a say in admitting Turkey to the EU the NO vote would win overwhelmingly. Democracy is people power so...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
So and its 24% in Spain.
Turkey's economy has barely missed a beat and continued to grow, unlike the remainder of the Euro Zone.

And so has Mexico's despite the US recession. Now what does that prove?
That countries starting at a much lower rate of standard of living get through recessions better than rich countries?
or that Turkey and Mexico are where the US and the EU should look for ideas.

personally I am quite happy with the way the European economy has faired. I wouldn't perhaps say that if I lived in Greece, Portugal, Hungary or Italy - countries that all spend a lot more than they earn but I don't. I like the fact that the Netherlands have a election and the party that emerged successful where the party that said we need to balance the books very hard. no budget-deficits.
perhaps some countries could learn from that, countries where budgetdeficits are a way of life...
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ozglobal
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:56 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Personally I cant see why the US cant integrate with Mexico, open its borders completely and allow free trade and be locked in a political union, letting the 110 million mexicans become part of the US, vote in elections and having the US finance Mexicos social security system...
After all you lot have the NAFTA...

         Perfect analogy and just imagine the vitriolic, "Stay out of our internal affairs" from the US government every American on the forum should it be mentioned. However, the EU is portrayed as a corrupt old boys club if it does not do the equivalent.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ozglobal
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:02 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
Turkey can get a lot of the benefit from being associated with the EU, through trade and open skies agreements (and similar associations), without having to row in on other issues. Turkey seems to be doing quite well at the moment economically (well, better than its traditional rival anyway - but that's not hard!) and it probably feels that the disadvantages of being part of the EU outweigh the advantages, particularly if it can get many of those advantages without actually being a member.

Totally agree. I'm Australian. Australia meets all EU entry criteria, but just happens to be on the other side of the planet. Since we are speaking of Turkey and the EU and Turkey is not geographically in Europe, nor has it ever been, why not Australia in the EU?? Turkey and the EU can get all the real benefits being sought through close ties and alignment on trade and security. The EU is not a club for people who like each other and not being invited to join is not an existential condemnation. The US can get its own how in order with its American neighbours.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
janmnastami
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:03 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
I wouldn't perhaps say that if I lived in Greece, Portugal, Hungary or Italy

You should check the deficit/GDP ratio of Italy.
 
ozglobal
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:37 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):

The big worry was that Turkey would become the most populous country in the EU as well as the poorest, leading millions of people to flood into other countries, when many countries (like Germany) already have a look to Turks living there. Remember that EU membership means your people can move and work anywhere in the EU.

     
This, coupled with the fact of a clash of cultures on a number of fronts mean that integration into the EU is not the best option, but rather closer trade and security ties which provide the benefits without the penalties.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:02 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
What one nay vote? You mean the constitution, yeah lets put it out of play. Doesn't make sense to non Europeans so we might as well get rid of it immediately.
I can guarantee you that if the people ever were to have a say in admitting Turkey to the EU the NO vote would win overwhelmingly. Democracy is people power so...

Check the process of admitting a member. The decision has to be unanimous or it doesn't proceed. For Turkey to be admitted, not one member can oppose.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Well may i recommend some literature. www.europa.eu The standards that have to be fulfilled to join the EU are avalible for all to see.
And no Turkey doesn't fulfil half of them.
A war against the kurds is going on, Northern Cyprus hasn't been solved. the judiciary system isnt what the EU demands neither is the labour legislation, freedom of speech is limited. You name it Turkey has a long, long way to go.

I am well aware of the acquis communautaire that new members must fulfill in order to enter. I'm just saying that, assuming that Turkey does meet this criteria, the only real road block (apart from what a politician would like to see) is the Cyprus problem. I know that Turkey has a long way to go, but who can proceed with adopting EU law when every chapter you discuss is blocked/frozen by country just because...

Quote:
This is not Germany and France, this is about meeting and fulfilling all criteria s that the EU demands.
the EU isnt a social club that admits countries to be nice and friendly.

News would seem to contradict you where both France and Germany oppose Turkey because "it has no place in Europe"...That's not an excuse for a country that basically meets the criteria to be considered for membership and continues to contribute towards EU safety with NATO.
That's like you meeting the criteria for running for president but being told you can't run because I don't want you to. You meet the criteria, you have every right to run. Whether the public (this is where democracy comes into play) favors you is another different matter. If the EU is democratic, then it should be majority rules and if more members would like to admit than reject Turkey as a member, then that's true democracy.

The EU is not a social club...yet it's goal is European unification (hence the name European Union)...for European unification to take place, countries that meet the Maastricht criteria and wish to join are quite literally guaranteed membership assuming, again, they meet the acquis criteria and are willing to submit to EU regulations. Turkey met the criteria (or else it wouldn't be a membership candidate), it's trying to meet the acquis criteria...only stumble is Cyprus. Once that's solved, why oppose Turkey?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
racko
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:23 am

Germany's conservative party is the only major party opposing a EU membership of Turkey. Turkey has a way to go, it took them until 2004(!) to abolish the death penalty. But when they're there, they'll get in.

And, if I may say so, how about he tell's his president that his party members walking around calling Turkey a "former ally" or suggesting it's a good thing to "strangle" Gaza aren't helping either.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:08 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
Turkey met the criteria (or else it wouldn't be a membership candidate), it's trying to meet the acquis criteria...only stumble is Cyprus. Once that's solved, why oppose Turkey?

What I disagree to is the fact that its just Cyprus. To me its not just about Cyprus. In fact Cyprus is one of the lesser problems Turkey faces.
What the EU have is something called the Copenhagen criterias that must be fulfilled for a nation to become a member.
these are EU legislation and can not be negotiated about.
In the last report Turkey hadn't satisfactory addressed judiciary reforms, freedom of speech, foreign policy, there is an armed conflict with the Kurds, the Armenian issue isnt solved, discriminatory policies are in place, transparency isnt at the level required, property rights aren't guaranteed, punishments aren't at European standards, fishery policies aren't aligned, regulatory requirements haven't been changed, governmental purchasing hasn't even been addressed and this is just some of the points.
I mean just look at aviation since we are at airliners.net. Hardly a closed chapter.
here are the 35 chapters Turkey need to comply with ( no negotiations, this is pure compliance)
They havent closed many.
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/enla...ations_croatia_turkey/index_en.htm

I read in a Turkish report that it said five to go, but I have never seen anything remotedly close to this figure in European reports.

If Turkey manages to close all the chapters then they will be subject to a vote for membership until then no vote will take place. But since one of the criterias is no unresolved territorial conflict no vote can take place until the Cyprus issue has been solved. So this is at the moment a non issue. But if Cyprus were the only hurdle the pressure to resolve that conflict would be huge.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):

Check the process of admitting a member. The decision has to be unanimous or it doesn't proceed. For Turkey to be admitted, not one member can oppose.

Yes constitution.

Every EU member must agree to new members. And so far every candidate that have fulfilled all criterias have become accepted and the day Turkey fulfils all criterias they would be accepted as well. But with Turkey not having completed many of the chapters yet I don't see this as a major issue for the coming 20 years.
And even to open some chapters other must have been addressed, turkey still haven't been able to open screening on many chapters due to this issue. And yes territorial conflicts comes before freedom of movement etc.

If Turkey wants to become a EU member they will have to fulfil the criterias. And in this case it requires the applicant to conform to EU rules and regulations. Its not about negotiations nor compromises just conformation of the applicant; in this case Turkey.
Now blocking certain EU ships from its waters isnt to smart when one wants to be included into the EU. Turkey have to realise that if it wants to join it will have to follow all the rules. There is no compromising or special treatment and Turkey will loose out on some issues, Cyprus being an obvious one, Armenia another...

Croatia faced the same issue a few months ago when a territorial conflict over the border in the ocean between them and Slovenia flared up. Negotiations almost came to a halt because of it until Croatia resolved the issue.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
The EU is not a social club...yet it's goal is European unification (hence the name European Union)...for European unification to take place, countries that meet the Maastricht criteria and wish to join are quite literally guaranteed membership assuming, again, they meet the acquis criteria and are willing to submit to EU regulations. Turkey met the criteria (or else it wouldn't be a membership candidate), it's trying to meet the acquis criteria...only stumble is Cyprus. Once that's solved, why oppose Turkey?

First the Maastricht criterias were five requirements set out for countries to meet if they wished to join the single currency. They are now included in the Lisbon treaty.
The Maastricht criterias have nothing to do with EU membership.
Most new EU members are not yet fulfilling the Maastricht criterias. The latest to fulfil them seems to be Estonia and that will be voted on come July.
And no, Turkey is for that sake not even remotedly close to fulfil the original Maastricht criterias.

Fulfilling the criterias for the common currency does not nor will it ever have anything to do with guaranteeing EU membership or membership applications. (besides as said the Maastricht criterias are now included in the Lisbon treaty)

secondly the 35 chapters that have to be fulfilled havent been fulfilled by Turkey. many havent even been opened since they require others to be completed. Turkey has to swallow some bitter pills and accept Cyprus, Armenia etc before it can move on to other chapters..

remember no territorial conflicts with other member states is one of the criterias to be fulfilled and is one of the first chapters to be discussed.
Turkey will have to resolve Northern Cyprus in order to become a EU member. If Turkey are serious about wanting to joining the EU they would negotiate a deal about Cyprus or even unilaterally withdraw its own troops and recognise the state of Cyprus in accordance to the UN statues. lets not forget that Turkey have taken it upon itself to recognise Northern Cyprus this in itself violates UN and EU legislation and needs to be corrected before any EU membership or real negotiations can take place.
Otherwise the constitution would be put out of play.



On a personal note I would love for A Turkey, following in the footsteps of Ataturk, to join the EU.
Problem is that Turkey lead by present leadership is pretty far from Ataturks vision of islam and state separated.

We must remember that this doesnt just affect islam, it works in many ways. Despite some very hefty criticism (Poland primarily), the EU constitution refused to include the reference to Christianity demanded by most catholic countries (excluding France).

At the moment the only thing that still follows Ataturks ideals in Turkey seems to be the military.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:48 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The Turkish military would step in and remove any government that started to reject Ataturk's principles, and has done just that several times. That concept raises the hairs on the necks of any supporter of democratic principles, but history has shown that Turkey needed that safety net in order to preserve their secular democracy.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
They pushed Turkey to reform the military and de-politicize it, based on Western ideals that reject such intervention by the military, but France and Germany do not face a religion constantly trying to impose itself on the government.

This oriental version of "checks and balances" is scary any way you look at it and after 90 years of "modern Turkey" I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation for the secular institutions and concept of governance to have deeper roots, without the military acting as the de facto fourth branch of the government.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
And you can bet anything that when Turkey becomes a regional power, the EU will be begging for them to join.

Turkey is a regional power and has been for a while.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
The decision has to be unanimous or it doesn't proceed. For Turkey to be admitted, not one member can oppose.

And the problem with such procedure is? All member states who joined the EU at later stage after the EU6 was formed went through the same process so there really is no reason for the rules to change at halftime.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
countries that meet the Maastricht criteria and wish to join are quite literally
guaranteed membership assuming, again, they meet the acquis criteria and are willing to submit to EU regulations

I don't see where you read that guarantee as membership of any country is a subject to approval in all memer states' parliaments. And Maastricht is Euro, not the EU.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
If the EU is democratic, then it should be majority rules and if more members would like to admit than reject Turkey as a member, then that's true democracy.

Where do you see the deficit of democracy if one or more members reject it and the rest respect the outcome since the rules say that ALL must approve the membership of any new state wishing to join?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22):
Most new EU members are not yet fulfilling the Maastricht criterias.

And most old EU members no longer bother to meet them as well.

 
RussianJet
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The main concern was that 80 million Turks would suddenly flood into the rest of the EU looking for work.

And that will still be a major concern in 5, 10, 20 years or whatever. Even with current controls it is clear that the drive is there.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
The only issue that the EU can use to oppose Turkey is the Cyprus division.

Nonsense. That is certainly a reason, but no way is it the only one.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22):
First the Maastricht criterias were five requirements set out for countries to meet if they wished to join the single currency. They are now included in the Lisbon treaty.
The Maastricht criterias have nothing to do with EU membership.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
And Maastricht is Euro, not the EU.

Sorry...don't know why I wrote Maastricht...I meant Copenhagen. My bad.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
I don't see where you read that guarantee as membership of any country is a subject to approval in all memer states' parliaments.

You didn't get my point...by meeting the Copenhagen criteria (being a European State), you are literally on track. Again, you have to meet the conditions of the acquis before becoming a member. Let's see...Switzerland and Norway are European. I'm willing to bet that when they submit their applications they will get candidate status and join the EU in no more than five years (assuming they complete the acquis completely).

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
Where do you see the deficit of democracy if one or more members reject it and the rest respect the outcome since the rules say that ALL must approve the membership of any new state wishing to join?

Let's compare this with Iran's presidential elections...all candidates must be screened by the Council of Guardians and only those that they want are the ones that can run. The rest will simply have to hope for better luck...is that democracy?
Another example is the Security Council. Five members hold veto power and any no vote from them means that the resolution will not proceed (hence why the US often negotiates with Russia and China before voting). So if the Security Council wishes to condemn Israel for its Gaza blockade, if the US votes no, then it's not valid. Wow...very democratic.

I'm simply saying that one NAY vote from any country doesn't seem democratic at all. Democracy is majority rules.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
Turkey is a regional power and has been for a while.

It hasn't been treated as such.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
And the problem with such procedure is? All member states who joined the EU at later stage after the EU6 was formed went through the same process so there really is no reason for the rules to change at halftime.

When there were 6 members, one NAY vote would mean that 1/6 was opposed. There are now 27 members. If my math is correct 1/27 is not the same as 1/6, so one NAY vote now does not carry the same weight as it did back then percentage wise. And though it's their rules, I think I'm able to give my opinion on how I look at their procedure. If they think it works, then fine with me, but I don't like it.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22):
secondly the 35 chapters that have to be fulfilled havent been fulfilled by Turkey. many havent even been opened since they require others to be completed.

AFAIK, all 35 chapters can be opened and discussed, but when chapters are blocked, then who's to blame?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22):
remember no territorial conflicts with other member states is one of the criterias to be fulfilled and is one of the first chapters to be discussed.
Turkey will have to resolve Northern Cyprus in order to become a EU member.

IIRC, both Turkey and Northern Cyprus backed the Annan Plan and the Greek Cypriots rejected it. The reward? Greek Cypriots entered the EU while the Turkish Cypriots get squat. So it looks as if the EU didn't want the Cyprus conflict to be solved or else it would have put off membership for Cyprus until a solution is found and the whole island could enter.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22):
What I disagree to is the fact that its just Cyprus. To me its not just about Cyprus. In fact Cyprus is one of the lesser problems Turkey faces.

Then what else is it? EU countries have their differences with non-EU countries. If this is about Armenia, I thought relations were already established...?
I'm well aware that Cyprus is not the only roadblock, but it's the biggest roadblock. Meet the acquis criteria, have good ties with surrounding neighbor countries, if you don't recognize Cyprus, you're out of luck.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
lewis
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:20 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
News would seem to contradict you where both France and Germany oppose Turkey because "it has no place in Europe"...That's not an excuse for a country that basically meets the criteria to be considered for membership and continues to contribute towards EU safety with NATO.
That's like you meeting the criteria for running for president but being told you can't run because I don't want you to. You meet the criteria, you have every right to run. Whether the public (this is where democracy comes into play) favors you is another different matter. If the EU is democratic, then it should be majority rules and if more members would like to admit than reject Turkey as a member, then that's true democracy.

The EU is not a social club...yet it's goal is European unification (hence the name European Union)...for European unification to take place, countries that meet the Maastricht criteria and wish to join are quite literally guaranteed membership assuming, again, they meet the acquis criteria and are willing to submit to EU regulations. Turkey met the criteria (or else it wouldn't be a membership candidate), it's trying to meet the acquis criteria...only stumble is Cyprus. Once that's solved, why oppose Turkey?

What I do not like is that Turkey was invited to start talks while there are EU nations that will always oppose membership. Why invite a country to participate and change so many things if, at the end of the day, countries will still not want it to be a member? In my opinion, all countries (especially the big powers) in the EU should have agreed on finally accepting Turkey before initiating the lengthy talks. Will the carrot remain on a stick forever for Turkey? That is not right.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 25):
IIRC, both Turkey and Northern Cyprus backed the Annan Plan and the Greek Cypriots rejected it. The reward? Greek Cypriots entered the EU while the Turkish Cypriots get squat. So it looks as if the EU didn't want the Cyprus conflict to be solved or else it would have put off membership for Cyprus until a solution is found and the whole island could enter.

You have to consider that maybe this plan was not to the best interests for the Republic of Cyprus (Greek Cypriots before the occupation were the majoritnow maybe not that much with all settlers moved in the north from mainland Turkey) and would simply legitimize the occupation of the north by limiting freedom of return and bypassing standing issues in order to provide a fast yet unfair solution to the problem. Of course Turkey and Turkish Cypriots would accept the plan, they had a lot to gain (Turkey specifically would hold substantial power over the sovereignty of the nation-read below). The same cannot be said though for the Greek Cypriots. Tell me, would you accept the plan if you were Turkish Cypriot? How about if you were from the other side?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendum,_2004

The EU has no reason to withhold membership from the Republic of Cyprus as it is them that got invaded and had almost half of their territory occupied for the interests of less than 20% of the island's population.

edit for spelling

[Edited 2010-06-12 09:21:46]
 
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Aesma
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:04 pm

The US want Turkey to join the EU so that we can be screwed big time, the US could then be back on top of the world.

I'm not totally against Turkey joining the EU, but I must say I was more for it before islamists took power (one reason being their secular state was much like French laïcité, and is now in danger)... And at that time, Turkey couldn't join yet, it didn't have met all the criteria.

One major criteria, still unresolved, is the problem with Cyprus. Another is the recognition of the Armenian genocide.
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:15 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
The US want Turkey to join the EU so that we can be screwed big time, the US could then be back on top of the world.

Attention tinfoil hat brigade!

Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aesma
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:31 pm

In fact the first words of my sentence are enough. The US shouldn't have anything to say on the matter, but they say the same thing often, meaning there is an agenda.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
eaa3
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:41 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 26):
What I do not like is that Turkey was invited to start talks while there are EU nations that will always oppose membership. Why invite a country to participate and change so many things if, at the end of the day, countries will still not want it to be a member? In my opinion, all countries (especially the big powers) in the EU should have agreed on finally accepting Turkey before initiating the lengthy talks. Will the carrot remain on a stick forever for Turkey? That is not right.

Technically when Turkey was accepted as an applicant country it was accepted that if it meets the criteria and that the EU countries were ok with Turkey joining. So your right it seems a bit weird to oppose the idea after the fact. The EU accession process is quite interesting in that a country needs permission to apply.

On a side note Iceland has applied to start negotiations and on the 17th of June the Council will meet to accept or decline Iceland's application. The 17th of June is Iceland's independence day as in 1944 on the 17th of June Iceland declared it's independence from Denmark and is therefore a weird day to start negotiations with the EU.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:25 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 26):
What I do not like is that Turkey was invited to start talks while there are EU nations that will always oppose membership. Why invite a country to participate and change so many things if, at the end of the day, countries will still not want it to be a member? In my opinion, all countries (especially the big powers) in the EU should have agreed on finally accepting Turkey before initiating the lengthy talks. Will the carrot remain on a stick forever for Turkey? That is not right.

Here in Germany it is primarely the right wing of the Christian-Democrat conservative party, which opposes Turkey´s entry into the EU out of principle (though recently the party had quite an influx by conservative and even Muslim citizens from a Turkish immigrant backround), claiming the "Christian heritage of Europe".
The other parties (centrist to left) are in favour of a Turkish membership provide Turkey fullfills the Copenhagen criteria.
On the econ omicside, Turkey seems to be developing quite fast since a few years, with an emphasis on manufacturing industries, and this not only in the big cities of Western Turkey, but also in the center and east of the country. This economic development will over time defuse many of the ethnic conflicts (which are in fact mostly conflicts based on a backward rural society, where a small landowning upper class traditionally ruled in feudal style).

I noticed though that resistance against a Turkish membership out of principle comes mostly from two sources:
Some countries, which were in the past in conflicts with the old Ottoman empire, even if these conflicts date back 500 years (ok, in the Balkans Ottoman occupation only ended about 200 years ago), and those who would see Turkey as a competition for EU funds.

Jan
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Aesma
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:36 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 30):
Technically when Turkey was accepted as an applicant country it was accepted that if it meets the criteria and that the EU countries were ok with Turkey joining. So your right it seems a bit weird to oppose the idea after the fact. The EU accession process is quite interesting in that a country needs permission to apply.

It's mostly bureaucrats that start the negotiations, not governments, and not the people.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:47 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
I noticed though that resistance against a Turkish membership out of principle comes mostly from two sources:
Some countries, which were in the past in conflicts with the old Ottoman empire, even if these conflicts date back 500 years (ok, in the Balkans Ottoman occupation only ended about 200 years ago), and those who would see Turkey as a competition for EU funds.

The data available from polls conducted in the past show numbers which contradict you observation:
a) the opposition in the "old" EU is higher than in the "new" EU
b) the opposition to EU membership in Germany is over 60%, so the issue is probably more complex than just a division along the left/right faultline.

http://www.google.cz/#hl=cs&source=h...=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=3b072459cb35516e
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:56 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 33):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
I noticed though that resistance against a Turkish membership out of principle comes mostly from two sources:
Some countries, which were in the past in conflicts with the old Ottoman empire, even if these conflicts date back 500 years (ok, in the Balkans Ottoman occupation only ended about 200 years ago), and those who would see Turkey as a competition for EU funds.

The data available from polls conducted in the past show numbers which contradict you observation:
a) the opposition in the "old" EU is higher than in the "new" EU
b) the opposition to EU membership in Germany is over 60%, so the issue is probably more complex than just a division along the left/right faultline.

http://www.google.cz/#hl=cs&source=h...5516e

IMO, this depends largely on the wording of the questions. If the question asks for an immediate EU entry of Turky, most people (including myself) would strongly disagree, since Turkey at the moment doesn´t fullfill many of the Copenhagen criteria.
If the question on the other hand asks if Turkey should become a m ember AFTER the Copenhagen criteria are fullfilled (and the country has developed a bit more economically), the results should be more in favour. Unfortunately most poll results don´t show the wording of the questions.

I also have to say that the participation of e.g. Romania and Bulgaria was too early. Both countries suffer major problems with corruption, organised crime and lack of financial accountability, which caused the EU commision to withold funds to these countries.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:33 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
unpredictable Turkey

I think Mr Gates got it wrong. An entry of Turkey into the E.U. needs at least five years or rather 10 to 15 to become reality. Mr Erdogan for years has worked on getting into middle ground, for example by improving relations with Greece and Syria. The too close relationship with Israel increasingly became a negative burden for Turkish foreign politics, and for example kept the Arab countries from recognizing the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Mr Gates of course has seen how France agreed with Greek Cyprus the establishment of a French Naval Base on the island and how Russia will establish bases in Latakia and Tartous, and fears that Turkey might follow the lead of Greece and terminate the US presence on Turkish soil.

Unpredictable is not Turkey but increasingly are Israel and the USA in reality.
 
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:41 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 3):
Turkey has to comply with EU's laws and principles

you ought to be realistic. Romania and Bulgaria were let into the EU for "strategical" reasons, while they were miles away from meeting any EU standards. Turkey still is too far away. At a time when its economy will be up, they also will be able to cope with the rest of the principles in question. Why rest ? Because Turkey in recent years gradually HAS adapted its laws to EU laws. Years ago, famous German journalist Peter Scholl-Latour and Swiss politician Christoph Blocher have recommended to the Turks to go for a middle-ground between Europe, the Arab World and Central Asia, in their view a realistic option for a country of that size. Looks as Mr Erdogan has understood the lessons of them.
 
eaa3
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:44 am

I have to say though: The US is blaming the EU for not treating Turkey well enough but more to the core of the Israeli- Palestinian sitution the US by supporting Israel no questions asked causes a lot more problems than any issue with Turkey. So who is more to blame?
 
janmnastami
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:58 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
you ought to be realistic. Romania and Bulgaria were let into the EU for "strategical" reasons, while they were miles away from meeting any EU standards.

You're right: but, in my opinion, the enlargement process has been too rapid and some new members shouldn't have been admitted to join the EU.
 
lewis
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:14 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):

I noticed though that resistance against a Turkish membership out of principle comes mostly from two sources:
Some countries, which were in the past in conflicts with the old Ottoman empire, even if these conflicts date back 500 years (ok, in the Balkans Ottoman occupation only ended about 200 years ago), and those who would see Turkey as a competition for EU funds.

I have noticed that public opinion in the EU is generally against Turkey joining. From a political opinion, I see more resistance coming from W.Europe than ex-Ottoman territories, especially countries that now hold power in the EU due to their size and would lose considerable influence once a new country of 80 million people joins. This country would hold more seats in the European parliament than any other country. In addition, countries already facing high levels of illegal immigration are opposing membership due to a future mass influx of immigration in the EU. Out of principle opposition does not matter anyway - when was the last time a government in the EU actually listened to what people wanted?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:48 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 38):
the enlargement process has been too rapid

This may be true, but you have also to see it the other way round. An Istanbul carpet trader once told me that a too sudden entry into the EU would ruin the Turkish carpet industry due to the EU laws about minimum wages, as the Turks have to compete with countries like Iran.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 39):
mass influx of immigration in the EU

again, turn it on top ! Mr Erdogan even for the time after full admission of Turkey into the EU agree to have brakes on "free movement" of the workforce. Why ? Because Turkey fears to lose its best employees to the West in an unprecedented braindrain, which might severely damage the Turkish industry.

Amazingly however it is two Western politicians who have put Turkey under a longterm pressure to continue to move towards the EU, Dominique de Villepin and Nicolas Sarkozy. Their Mediterranean Partnership puts some 70% of the Arab World (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan) onto the same position with the EU as Turkey has had now for some time, which means that this will work to the DISadvantage of Turkey increasily over a longer term.

In Germany, it is the Bavarian CSU which is against Turkey joining the EU, while the CDU would be ready to accept. As it increasingly becomes likely that the CDU/CSU and the FDP will lose the next parliamentary elections, things may change. And Mr Sarkozy in future may well support an SPD lead Germany in a more Turkey friendly position as this would suit his idea of a better link-up of the EU with the Eastern and Southern Mediterranean.

But once again, we here speak about medium to long term developments and not about shortterm matters.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
As it increasingly becomes likely that the CDU/CSU and the FDP will lose the next parliamentary elections

Really? You know what will happen in three years time? Depends a lot on the economy, of course and if things do not change 180 degrees around, I would not be so sure. Look where socialist policies of spending like there is no tommorrow got us (meaning everyone who has to deal with huge budget deficits) and people seem to realize that the party is over.
Proof? The socialists lost elections in 6 out of 6 countries in recent weeks where general elections were held.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 42):
Really? You know what will happen in three years time? Depends a lot on the economy, of course and if things do not change 180 degrees around, I would not be so sure. Look where socialist policies of spending like there is no tommorrow got us (meaning everyone who has to deal with huge budget deficits) and people seem to realize that the party is over.

The FDP went down in popularity to below 5% during the latest surveys, this is beneath the minimum number of votes required to enter parliament. While they have a few very good people (most of them part of the civil rights wing of the party), like Minister of Justice Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger and Minister of Health Rössler, their leader (and Minister for foreign affairs)has been completely discredited through his incompetence and too close ties to big business. He is widely regarded as an embarrasment for Germany.
Mrs. Merkel is widely respected and I suspect that a new government and might well end up in a rerun of the previous grand coalition with the SPD. She belongs to the secular centrist wing of the CDU and hasn´t many followers among the predominantly catholic Bavarian CSU.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
racko
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:10 pm

The way things are currently I wouldn't be so sure the current coalition survives this year. The last Kohl years were a breeze compared to the mess our government currently is.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 42):
Really? You know what will happen in three years time? Depends a lot on the economy, of course and if things do not change 180 degrees around, I would not be so sure. Look where socialist policies of spending like there is no tommorrow got us (meaning everyone who has to deal with huge budget deficits) and people seem to realize that the party is over.
Proof? The socialists lost elections in 6 out of 6 countries in recent weeks where general elections were held

> sure really ? No, not at all. I would not be surprised if Mrs Merkel won the next elections very nicely. But the "trends" at present go against her. Which is a pity as she is good in her job.
> Socialist policies of spending ..... are not the policies of the SPD, and have not been so for 5 decades now. The "policies of spending" in Germany were started by Konrad Adenauer, the famous CDU chancellor of the 50ies and into the 60ies
> The socialists lost ? The socialists WON in Wallonia (French Belgium). And in the other countries you mentioned it was not a particular party but basically the government.
> Back to Germany. I personally expect Mrs Merkel to turn back into a grand-coalition with the SPD, which will reduce the share of the CSU seriously.
 
babybus
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:22 am

Turkey is, and essentially always has been, an Islamic Arab state that would be totally awkward to have within the EU and a complete economic burden, like Greece.

Maybe the US states could adopt it to prevent its further decline?

The EU club is for European countries with European cultures.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Asturias
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:19 pm

All I have to say is that Robert Gates and by extention the USA should stuff it and butt out of EU internal affairs. It's none of their business and this constant meowing about Turkey is sad.

Bottom line: the USA should shut up about this.

asturias
Tonight we fly
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
Turkey is, and essentially always has been, an Islamic Arab state

Turkey is not Arab and has never been an Arab state. As the Ottoman empire they RULED several of today´s Arab states as a colonial power (until 1918), but this is it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Blames EU For Turkey Foreign Policy 'drift'

Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):

A) Turkey is NOT an Arab state and has never been an Arab state and cannot be an Arab state

B And while the country is Muslim majority-wise it is not Islamist but Secularist, not least by its constitution. And the powerful military leadership takes care that this constitution is respected.

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