ltbewr
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Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:37 am

General McChrystal is being ordered to appear at a meeting with President Obama tommorow due to explain critizism by him and others on his senior staff published in an article in 'Rolling Stone' magazine of the President, the Vice President, other political leaders, suggesting they are 'wimps' and other serious challanges to their authority as to our prosuction of the war in Afganistan. Here is a article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/politics-white_house/

Although he has been apoligizing for his terrible judgment in participating in this article, his is facing a very serious problem and he may have violated the UCMJ and other laws that effectively bans such critizism of the Commander-in-Chief. He may have to resign from the military immediately or be fired by the President, much like Gen. McAuthur had to fired during the Korean War by then Pres. Truman.

The general's actions are being condemmend by all political sides, it is in a total violation of the clear position of civililan over the military. The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them. There is also serious questions as to his even allowing any reporter so close to his inner circle and to make such statements on the public record. Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:03 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

Gen McChyrstal to my knowledge in no way has challenged the orders given to him, he has and should continue to highlight problematic areas and request more personnel and resources to execute the mission. Was it in poor taste to allow his and the comments of his staff make it to the press...of course. Should he be fired...no. Reprimanded in a "don't do that again or I'll have you steaming letters open in a basement with no windows" conversation with the boss...more than likely. There will almost always be a disconnect between the civilian complex that controls the military and the requirements of ground force commanders to get the job done. Then again commanders don't have votes to win.



Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

Withdraw and let the progress that we've made founder? Will only create far worse problems for us down the road. Nobody said this whole thing was going to be simple and without great cost.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
dxing
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:31 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
prosuction

Well you got that part right. The way we are prosecuting this war now truly does suck.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Although he has been apoligizing for his terrible judgment in participating in this article, his is facing a very serious problem and he may have violated the UCMJ and other laws that effectively bans such critizism of the Commander-in-Chief. He may have to resign from the military immediately or be fired by the President, much like Gen. McAuthur had to fired during the Korean War by then Pres. Truman.

Totally different situations. Gen. MacArthur openly and viciously disagreed with set policy. All I see here is that he has made some insulting personal remarks. Unless there is something in the article where he disagrees with set policy and advocates a different course then a dressing down is in order and his access to the press will probably be severely restricted in the future.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The general's actions are being condemmend by all political sides, it is in a total violation of the clear position of civililan over the military. The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them

Exactly how is he not following the orders of the President? As to challenging them, it is the militaries responsibility to challange upcoming decisions in policy if they feel they are wrong. However once the decision is made, then they are to shut up and go about the business of making those decisions, no matter how dumb they are, happen.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
There is also serious questions as to his even allowing any reporter so close to his inner circle and to make such statements on the public record.

Which will most likely be addressed by installing a new PIO at the Generals command, one that answers to the JCS and not the General.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

The biggest comparison now to Vietnam is the ridiculous ROE's that the troops are being given.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

One soldier at the outpost showed Hastings, who was traveling with the general, a written directive instructing troops to "patrol only in areas that you are reasonably certain that you will not have to defend yourself with lethal force."

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will062010.php3

"Receiving mortar fire during an overnight mission, his unit called for a 155mm howitzer illumination round to be fired to reveal the enemy's location. The request was rejected "on the grounds that it may cause collateral damage." The NCO says that the only thing that comes down from an illumination round is a canister, and the likelihood of it hitting someone or something was akin to that of being struck by lightning.

Returning from a mission, his unit took casualties from an improvised explosive device that the unit knew had been placed no more than an hour earlier"


as well as....

"When the artillery support was denied because of fear of collateral damage, the unit asked for a "smoke mission" -- like an illumination round; only the canister falls to earth -- "to conceal our movement as we planned to flank and destroy the enemy." This request was granted -- but because of fear of collateral damage, the round was deliberately fired one kilometer off the requested site, making "the smoke mission useless and leaving us to fend for ourselves."

I'm more worried about the extra danger political decisions may be making in this battle with stupid ROE's than a few off the cuff and stupid remarks by a General who is still probably the best for the job.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:38 pm

First, I gotta say... how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

Second, you don't have to stretch all the way back to 1951 with Gen. MacArthur being fired. Simply look back as early as 2006 when Admiral Fallon "resigned" his post as commander of CENTCOM. After a report in Esquire, he was shown the door.

Third, to answer the questions above, Article 88 of the USMJ Contempt Towards Officials says:

Quote:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

Seriously? Never challenge them?? I have a sneaking suspicion that if he followed some questionable orders, you would be the first to jump on him for knowing better. You can't have it both ways.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

You know, I was in Iraq in '06, when the war was at its lowest point. And you can go back and read some of my comments from then, but I was fairly certain that it wasn't going to end well. At the same time, I wasn't one of those idiots who loved to compare Iraq to Viet Nam. I was also a strong supporter of Gen Patreaus's new strategies, and I am the first to admit that I never thought they would be as successful, as they have been.

So with that being said, I see a lot of similarities today in Afghanistan. I would say we are at the lowest point in the war -- but just like I said in '06 in Iraq - I feel like we're at a crossroad, and there is an opportunity to truly turn this thing around. The issue with the ROE (and yes, the rules are about the strictest I have ever seen!) are way more complicated than some make them out to be, but that's a subject for another day.

I personally like Gen. McChrystal, and have deep respect for him. I would be disappointed to see him leave prematurely, and I wonder who is big enough to fill his slot?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dl021
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:42 pm

The entire idea that he allowed a Rolling Stone reporter to follow him for weeks is unbelievable. Uttering remarks critical of his civilian superiors (in rank at least) is remarkably poor judgement.

He probably ought to be fired for open insubordination. If he's not the Obama adminstration will be perceived as weak. If he isn't fired they'll be perceived as weak. He's compromised his ability to get what he believes he needs for the troops to accomplish their mission. The ridiculous ROE are part of a strategy to pull back on the use of force in order to reduce the excuses the enemy has to blame stuff on us and generate more resentment towards us. Afghanistan is a country in name only, made so by an amalgamation of different tribes by a previous colonial occupier, and the only time they've ever united is when they're throwing out foreigners whom they consider occupiers. Our only chance of creating stability there is to give their central government the tools and opportunity to unite a bunch of people who don't want to be told what to do.

What he's gotten so far is what he thought he needed, and that over the objections and protestations of people in the administration. Now he's given those vindictive and highly politicized individuals the room they needed to sabotage his efforts for their own ends and made what was already a supremely difficult and dangerous job only moreso.

I think he is a very smart and tough individual (he's a Delta guy with long experience) and he knew what he was doing, or should have.....which means there's no excuse, and he ought to be fired for violations of the UCMJ and for being a jackass and we bring Petraeus' deputy up to run that theater. But then again no one's asking me. Best case is that he's given more rope and he pulls it out between now and the end of the year. He's going to be relieved at some point, though. Sooner or later.
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AGM100
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:51 pm

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 1):
Withdraw and let the progress that we've made founder?



I know it is like choosing between brain cancer or heart disease .... but it is going to happen. Something is very wrong over there.... powers in the background somehow are keeping the insurgency alive and emboldened. Add to that our troops are in a boxing match where the opponent knows we are stepping out of the ring in 5th round ...puts everyone in a very weird situation. President Obama can not be slugging it out there and hope to get elected in 2012...they know it and we know it. And him setting a time table for withdrawal , although I agree we should get out ... was poorly handled.

Difference between President Bush and President Obama ... Bush did not worry about the politics his only goal was stability and freedom in Afghanistan (as he said over and over). Not saying his decisions were all good ...but we knew why we were there.

President Obama has done damage to AQ and other groups in PAK ect. His aggressive use of drones and special operations I believe has hurt the enemy ...but he is in a bad crack politically so it does not have the effect overall he wants.

I want our people out of there ...
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:00 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 4):
and we bring Petraeus' deputy up to run that theater.

I have nothing but the highest respect for General Allen, but he has never really commanded something as large (the largest command was brigade level), as a theater command. Not to mention, it would require him being promoted to 4 star.

But Gen. Odierno is wrapping up his command of MNF-Iraq. He and General Patreaus are the ones who turned Iraq around, and is extremely well liked and respected by many in the Army. If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AGM100
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:30 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.



Although I respect them both immensely and I agree with you ... I just don't know what else could be done. We have surged troops , and from what I read we are killing the enemy and holding territory ; but somehow it is not winning the peace like it did in Iraq. I know its a different war totaly and not to be compared ..so we may put Gen Odierno into a lose lose situation.

Our leadership thinks in terms of political standing and naturally will do what seems politically expedient ...not sure Gen.Odierno and Patreaus see the war in that way ( Not sure).
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comorin
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.
 
D L X
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:52 pm

I think Obama should make McChrystal peel his potatoes, stand at attention for a day in the hot Washington sun, receive a public dressing down, and then be sent back to work in Afghanistan. (I would suggest the same thing for Joe Wilson, btw.)

I'm not convinced he's not the best man for the job, but I am absolutely convinced that such an egregious misstep should be punished in an embarrassing way.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:37 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):

Third, to answer the questions above, Article 88 of the USMJ Contempt Towards Officials says:

Quote:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

And the bad judgment alone is worthy of a re-posting to some backwater and/or demotion.

As C-in-C this is all within the pervue of the President.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
At the same time, I wasn't one of those idiots who loved to compare Iraq to Viet Nam.

Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
.. powers in the background somehow are keeping the insurgency alive and emboldened.

It's well understood that the Pakistani ISI works to engineer a stalemate. They feel if Afghanistan is strong and independent then Pakistan will have threats on either side of it, which I think is absurd, but apparently they don't. The only time Pakistan works to aid the US is when terrorists threaten the power of the Pakistani government directly.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.

Letting the JAG decide would be wimpy. The JAG only gets involved when someone is court-marshaled. The President has every option open to him, and using a court-marshal would be a bad choice. Note MacArthur didn't get court-marshaled.
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Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:44 pm

McChrystal has demonstrated exceptionally poor judgement, as has those in his staff that do not know how to keep their mouths shut. Anyone who served with a security clearance knows about keeping your mouth shut.

So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled. Some don't deserve a Confidential level clearance, much less any level important.

Then there is the small issue of the officers involved having the confidence of their superior. These duds lost the confidence all the way up the chain of command. All the way to the top. Sort of a Dumb & Dumber thing.

Time for replacements, And a lot of them.
 
dl021
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:42 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
But Gen. Odierno is wrapping up his command of MNF-Iraq. He and General Patreaus are the ones who turned Iraq around, and is extremely well liked and respected by many in the Army. If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.

I said Deputy and I had it stuck in my head that Odierno was that.....He's the guy I was thinking about putting in charge. You're right...it would be making the best of a bad situation.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled. Some don't deserve a Confidential level clearance, much less any level important.

Then there is the small issue of the officers involved having the confidence of their superior. These duds lost the confidence all the way up the chain of command. All the way to the top. Sort of a Dumb & Dumber thing.

Confidential hasn't been a security clearance in over 20 years. These guys aren't duds.....they're among the best and brightest in the military, or really anywhere. They enjoyed the confidence of their leaders and felt comfortable enough to speak their minds. The problem is that the atmosphere of disrespect toward their civilian chain of command wasn't corrected and they got flagrant with their disrespect to the point that they spoke in front of reporters (who are never, ever your friend first). Opinions are fine, expressing them is different in the military. There's a way to do it most of the time without being insubordinate or detrimental to the chain-of-command.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Perhaps idiots is a strong term when referring to those who compared Vietnam to Afghanistan. How about willfully ignorant to the point that comparisons are made incorrectly. The "Vietnam' spectre was thrown up by people knee-jerking to the thought of armed conflict, and by those who wished to associate negative feelings with what the administration was doing. Is there disagreement on the idea that fighting to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan was unnecessary? How else was Al-Queda going to be disrupted inside that nation?
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.

Since a lot of the comments were made by "unnamed aides" of the general, I wonder if Rolling Stone would be willing to divulge the names of those individuals?

That's the problem with "unnamed aides", when it comes to a theater commander, he literally has dozens of aides, ranging in ranks from general to privates and specialists. And depending on who these people are, will shape what type of trouble/punishments they could face. Commissioned and enlisted soldiers have some different rules/regulations that apply to them.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
And the bad judgment alone is worthy of a re-posting to some backwater and/or demotion.

You don't demote and send to an obscure unit. It effects the gaining unit's morale, and it creates no incentive for the person to excel at their new posting. Everyone loses, which is stupid and unfair to those who had nothing to do with the demotion.

No, you quietly ask them to resign. Just like Admiral Fallon, or General McKiernan. ^^ All of these vindictive revenge scenarios are childish, and mirrors the same lack of professionalism that has created this mess.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

Sorry, I just call them as I see them. They're idiots.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Blah blah blah. There are literally hundreds of threads in Non-Av that said all of this, and more. Nothing you just said is new, nor relevant to the discussion.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled.

Huh? What breach of security procedures has occurred? lol what a weird punishment. Maybe we ought to pull their gym memberships, also?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
I just don't know what else could be done. We have surged troops , and from what I read we are killing the enemy and holding territory ; but somehow it is not winning the peace like it did in Iraq. I know its a different war totaly and not to be compared ..so we may put Gen Odierno into a lose lose situation.

Well just to make sure we're on the same page, the surge is underway, and not fully complete. Units from the 101st, 4ID and 10th Mountain are still being deployed. So it's not as though the surge has occurred, and we're all awaiting the results.

Those results will not likely begin to show until after October, when all the units are in place and conducting operations. Not to mention, the months immediately after the surge in Iraq saw an uptick in violence and carnage. As I said above, as someone who has been on the ground of both conflicts, I see a lot of similarities, and I get the same feeling that we're at a crossroad. There is definitely ways to move towards success, but it takes a very strong man at the top to push us in that direction.

I've worked under Gen Odierno, and the man was a force to reckon with. If anyone is capable of making shit happen, it's him. He's probably one of the best we've got.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ATCtower
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:00 pm

Just seems like another liberal sissie who cant take someone talking bad about him...

I would be very surprised if he actually loses his command over these comments. Questioning the fabric of our position is exactly what someone with 4 stars on his shoulder should be doing. Otherwise, we would just ask him to be dumb, not ask questions, and shoot people someone else with stars says to...
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AGM100
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:36 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
So it's not as though the surge has occurred, and we're all awaiting the results.



Sorry ..UH I was assuming the surge was in place for the most part . At the point of operation Khanjar and Panther claw (June 2009) the press was hailing this as the beginning of the surge . With follow on forces (the remaining 30K) arriving to hold Helmand after the Marines and Army Airborne Brigades move'd in to Helmand in the initial assault.

I agree that it has only been a year so the Surge does need more time ... but with the surge essentially in the shape building form what would Gen .Odierno do different ? You see my point ? New command would have to offer some new solutions I would think ...especially someone with the stature of the General.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
There is definitely ways to move towards success, but it takes a very strong man at the top to push us in that direction.



From here it is hard for us to see UH ... but I will take your knowledgeable word for it... if you guys trust the General then he has my vote !.


Either way ... I don't think McChrytal was in any shape or form in line with that interview. No way should a theatre commander be talking about the COC in that way while active. He should be relieved of command I would say.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
dxing
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:48 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

Where, in the linked article, or in any of the subsequent articles that have come out short of the Rolling Stone article itself does the General actually say something insubordinate? I see his staff as making a lot of comments that would earn them a charge but where does he directly act insubordinate to someone in his chain of command? Just asking.
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Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:06 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
Confidential hasn't been a security clearance in over 20 years.

And my active duty service ended 40 years ago - last January. But I do remember Confidential clearances and feel some of these duds shouldn't have anything higher.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
they're among the best and brightest in the military, or really anywhere.

No they are not. They are looking like true duds to the whole bloody world. Why do you think they didn't want their names disclosed. The whole group has been disgraced.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
They enjoyed the confidence of their leaders

Not any more. Not by a long bloody shot. Do you really believe that anyone on the JCS has any confidence on McCrystals competence to lead. Of SecDef? Or the President?

Actually SecDef should be taking the action tomorrow.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
There's a way to do it most of the time without being insubordinate or detrimental to the chain-of-command.

If you can't handle the traditional standards of behavior for an officer then resign. Maybe you can get a job on Rush's staff.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
Since a lot of the comments were made by "unnamed aides" of the general, I wonder if Rolling Stone would be willing to divulge the names of those individuals?

Or the ones that were flapping their jaws should own up. Show a bit of courage & integrity. Otherwise replace the whole bloody lot.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
What breach of security procedures has occurred?

Part of security clearances (at least in "my day") was based on the level of confidence in the individual. Red flags and you didn't get a clearance. Those individuals with loose lips don't rate clearances because of their behavior.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
lol what a weird punishment.

If you are an officer who wants a career in the military then an inability to get a security clearance is going to be an EFFECTIVE punishment that a lot of others in the military will clearly be able to understand.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 14):
Just seems like another liberal sissie who cant take someone talking bad about him...

McChrystal a "sissy"? Doubt that, but there are a lot of people around the country who are "talking bad about" him.

As far as Obama goes, he has given the General another chance more than one time. Considering that SecDef is also rather pissed (and I don't consider him a "sissy") I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:09 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Bush did not worry about the politics his only goal was stability and freedom in Afghanistan (as he said over and over).

Not really. Everything Bush did was politically calculated as well. To be fair, going to war and staying in war has always been a political calculation.

FDR should have entered the U.S. in WWII far earlier, but politically it was not popular until 12/7/1941.
Bush, Sr. probably should have knocked out Saddam in the first Gulf War, but politically it was viewed as undesirable.
Bush should have put more troops into Afghanistan from the beginning, but politcally it was undesirable as it would have meant a higher death toll. The same scenario played out in Iraq too.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

That's my question too. I don't understand why anyone in the upper echelon's of our military would think this was a good idea.
 
Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:24 pm

Joe Kline (Time) has one source that is now saying McCrystal has tendered his resignation.

Obama has not acted on it, but can accept it tomorrow, refuse it or simply fire the General.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:25 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 16):

I didn't read the article linked above, simply because I chose to avoid MSNBC material.

But to answer your question, I was simply showing that there is a Punitive Article of the UCMJ that prohibits commissioned officers from publicly making contemptuous comments towards higher officials, that go beyond just the President. I was not suggesting, one way or another, whether General McChrystal is guilty of that, or whether he should be punished. He's my boss. And just as President Obama is his (our) boss, I am not going to blame/convict/criticize/etc. Gen McChrystal's comments.

[Edited 2010-06-22 13:26:46]
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LAXintl
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:25 pm

And in McChrystal defense its probably an incredibly frustrating task having to deal with an administration leadership that has total ineptness when it comes to military matters.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

That's my question too. I don't understand why anyone in the upper echelon's of our military would think this was a good idea.

That's a good question. Did McChrystal decide to accept the reporters, or was he told to host them by someone higher up? Personally I feel that journalists have as much business interviewing officers in the field is a bad idea in any and every case. There is simply no need for it, nothing good can come of it, and it is just an opportunity for someone to say something stupid or dangerous.

And yes, McChrystal showed appalling judgment. Is it worth getting fired? I don't think so. But it's close.

[Edited 2010-06-22 13:29:33]
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gatorfan
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:29 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

I'm a bit confused. Why aren't John Kerry, the Clintons and moveon.org supporting Gen. McChrystal? Isn't speaking "truth to power" EXACTLY what they advocated Gen. Petraeus do when they called him General Betray US or voted against condemning the ad?
 
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casinterest
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:59 pm

CNN is reporting that McChrystal is tendering his resignation.

http://www.cnn.com/

Not sure what the fallout will be, but basically a lesson to be learned is that in the Miltary watch what you say about those higher in the COC than you when speaking to anyone not in COC
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Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:22 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
And in McChrystal defense its probably an incredibly frustrating task having to deal with an administration leadership that has total ineptness when it comes to military matters.

Or the incredibility frustrating task in having an amateurish staff totally lacking in judgement?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
And yes, McChrystal showed appalling judgment. Is it worth getting fired? I don't think so. But it's close.

The guy is not a platoon leader. He's a senior military officer who is expected to act at a higher standard. supporting staff that caused his downfall need to be fully vetted before theirs is accepted.

Personally I don't believe that there is any justification for not accepting his resignation. The

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
Not sure what the fallout will be, but basically a lesson to be learned is that in the Miltary watch what you say about those higher in the COC than you when speaking to anyone not in COC

Maybe the officers in the military will go back to higher standards. Back in the "old days" there were several topics that were off limits for general conversations - women, politics and religion. (Believe that was a "Wardroom Standard" for the Navy.) It certainly is totally unacceptable for any leader in the military.
 
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:27 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
But to answer your question

Understood.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
And yes, McChrystal showed appalling judgment. Is it worth getting fired? I don't think so. But it's close.

I still have yet to see the actual article but in the pieces released, where has he personally insulted the President or anyone else in his chain of command? His aides certainly said some incredibly stupid things and deserve to be reassigned or passed over for promotion from now on but what exactly did the General himself say?
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comorin
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:42 pm

I wonder if the General will become the toast of the Tea Party crowd, much like Ollie North had his fans. A book deal, speaking engagements could be consolations for his imminent (rumored) cashiering.
 
Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:43 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 27):
I wonder if the General will become the toast of the Tea Party crowd, much like Ollie North had his fans. A book deal, speaking engagements could be consolations for his imminent (rumored) cashiering.

If he resigns or is fired that is a pretty good option for him. Too late for the November election.

While I believe the General has certainly positioned himself for firing it might actually be better to fire his staff with big mouths. Heads have to roll because the behavior was totally unacceptable. The only question is what levels the axe needs to swing at.
 
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:15 am

McChrystal should look at history - at MacArthur as others have mentioned, and at Vietnam.

Look what happened when America lost the Vietnam War: Nothing.

"North Vietnam" was backed by nuclear sponsors and was advertised as the lynchpin to keeping all of southeast Asia out of the hands of America's enemies. The same people shouting for more troops today were shouting back then, just with different names, but with the same roles in the conflict. A big part of their problem is they can't stand the idea of America "losing" and like a desperate gambler can't quit because that creates a FINAL outcome.

America's biggest problems are at home and far more Americans are at threat (and will in fact die) from domestic problems as opposed to whatever is happening in Afghanistan. McChrystal should be moved from Afghanistan and into fixing the countless problems on the home front...the 15k to be lost this year in crime, the 50% of city kids who will never graduate, the crumbling infrastructure, etc....

Merlot
 
Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:54 am

Quoting merlot (Reply 29):
America's biggest problems are at home and far more Americans are at threat (and will in fact die) from domestic problems as opposed to whatever is happening in Afghanistan.

The country has a long list of problems. Most other countries do also.

The issue in Afghanistan today is the potential trillion dollars in natural resources, which would make an incredible fund for terrorists. That is a problem for all other countries and, I believe it a very real problem.

While I am unforgiving on the WMD BS related to Iraq, and the unnecessary invasion there was a reason to go into Afghanistan. It's called 9/11. Unfortunately the Bush/Cheney Administration basically robbed Peter to pay Paul in terms of military commitment. Iraq got the attention and Afghanistan got hind teat.

Now the Obama Administration is left to clean up the mess here (as well as a lot of other areas) and McChrystal and his yo-yo staff have made that job significantly more difficult. The long term problems that these yo-yos have caused can't be even be estimated today.
 
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:24 am

A civilian "coup d'état" on the military ...... mmmm interesting train of thought. Not my idea ...heard it described that way today. Interesting .... the civilian leadership in Afhganistan is headed by none other that big Clinton guy
R . Holbrook . Just throwing it out there .... RS article contained good remarks about Hillary?. I'm just saying....
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:49 am

This is a very serious situation which is why I started this thread. I also wanted to hear the comments of those here with current and past military experience.

One interesting facet of this story is that the reporter who wrote it ended up spending a lot longer that a few days as planned with the General and his staff as couldn't get home to the USA due to the Icelanic Volcano ash fallout! Gen. McChrystal and his staff made a terrible decision to speak with the reporters and to have the around in the first place unless he had an alterior motive. One has to wonder if the comments of the General and his staff has another purpose - to cover their butts if the USA forces fail in Afganistan and put the blame on the President and the other politicans. There is no doubt that there is a serious conflict of how to proscute the war in Afganistan. Most military leaders like to do what they were taught to do, that they believe is the best practice from a miltiary prespective to WIN using tactics and overwhelming force. They do not want to be put in the same situation as their predecesors were in Vietnam. It must be noted that Gen. McChrystal has some other issues. He may have been invoved as to the Tillman friendly fire death situation coverup. He may have allowed torture and unnessary human rights violations of solders in his command as to enemy combantants.

President Obama is under huge pressure to hold down to as close to zero as possible ANY 'innocent' deaths of which there have been too many, any 'innocents' killed or maimed are used by the enemy against us and highly publized in that country and throughout the Islamic world to bash the USA and make our war situation even worse. That has resulted in ROE's that are counterdictory to the training of solders on the ground and weakens the ability to properly fight there. Further if we 'lose to the Terrorists' then it may embolden them and others that hate the USA with who know what affects as well as screw the Democrats for years, like after Vietnam.

The President has 3 options as to Gen. McChrystal - none of which are particularly good: 1) Fire him immediately or accept his immediate retirement. Then you have to put in a new General and staff, get them up to speed on the scene in Afganistan, delay major actions of the solders, give an advantage to the enemy. Then as no longer in the miltary, he could as a civilian give even more criticism that could further hurt our efforts there. 2) Accept his resignation of command, but reassign him to some dead end in the Pentagon. At least he couldn't talk to the media for a while as still an officer. 3) Hold and not act on a resignation, not fire him, return him to Afganistan command Keep him, but on a short leash after an official repremend from the C of C and let him take the fall if we fail in Afganistan.
 
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:24 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 32):
The President has 3 options as to Gen. McChrystal - none of which are particularly good: 1) Fire him immediately or accept his immediate retirement. Then you have to put in a new General and staff, get them up to speed on the scene in Afganistan, delay major actions of the solders, give an advantage to the enemy. Then as no longer in the miltary, he could as a civilian give even more criticism that could further hurt our efforts there. 2) Accept his resignation of command, but reassign him to some dead end in the Pentagon. At least he couldn't talk to the media for a while as still an officer. 3) Hold and not act on a resignation, not fire him, return him to Afganistan command Keep him, but on a short leash after an official repremend from the C of C and let him take the fall if we fail in Afganistan.

This is a Leadership issue, not necessarily a Military issue... It's a really bad idea for a boss to keep someone on that has no respect for you. The subversion and backbiting will only get worse. He is highly respected but needs to be neutralized. The War will get along just fine, the hour makes the man.
 
Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 33):

This is a Leadership issue, not necessarily a Military issue

When I was in the service the senior officers on my ship were an exceptional example of leadership. Especially the Commanding Officers. I would have hoped that McChrystal and his buddies had some Leadership classes while at West Point.

Quoting comorin (Reply 33):
The subversion and backbiting will only get worse.

McChrystal has a few bosses up the chain of command. It's time they went in and cleaned up some of the mess to ensure the backbiting and subversion stops NOW. There needs to be a clean up, letters of reprimand and probably some demotions, right before early retirements.

I think Obama was wise not to fore McChrystal off the cuff, even though a lot of people would understand. The General will be facing both the President and SecDef tomorrow. By the end of the day the military will have some examples set and it will be clear that changes are in effect. This loose cannon attitude is about as reckless as a drunken sailor and needs to be changed. If the Holier Then Thou Officers can;'t handle that then they need to leave the service. This country deserves better.
 
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:15 am

The president needs a senior staff house cleaning starting but not ending with his chief of staff. The campaign people who get you to the White House are not necessarily the people to keep you there. The White House since day one has been stuck in campaign mode. There is a huge difference in campaigning and governing. The White House is at a crossroads, either you ride out the storm hoping for sunny days or you admit that there's a lot of problems and regroup. The president cannot afford politically to go on much longer surrounded with the White House staff that he has around him now. Rahm needs to run for mayor of Chicago and get out of Washington - he's as much of a liability as McChrystal is to Obama.

McChrystal will probably give Obama an "out" by offering his resignation to Obama, and then retire and write a highly critical book on Obama's handling of the war in Afghanistan, and become a Fox News military analyst, thus making millions of dollars along the way.....

[Edited 2010-06-22 23:19:53]
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fxramper
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:33 pm

Looks like he already tendered his resignation. Obama Administration might try and spin it as being the gracious boss and not accept McChrystal quitting.   
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:35 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 36):
Looks like he already tendered his resignation. Obama Administration might try and spin it as being the gracious boss and not accept McChrystal quitting

That would be the smart thing to do.
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fxramper
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
That would be the smart thing to do.

Resign or the administration spin it as 'interview taken out of context' and we accept your apology?

Maybe McChrystal wants to retire and just sit on the porch and drink Bud Lite Lime?   

James Mattis and Bill Caldwell were mentioned as possible replacements for McChrystal.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:05 pm

I think the bottom-line is this:

If a senior officer publically challenges policy or authority; or publically insults (whether in an overt or subtle fashion) the Commander-in-Chief and/or the civilian chain of command, he should offer his resignation (and the C-in-C accept it) or be fired. Anything less does undermine civilian control of the military. It really doesn't matter if McChrystal is effective or not...to openly challenge the C-in-C is a career killer.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
And in McChrystal defense its probably an incredibly frustrating task having to deal with an administration leadership that has total ineptness when it comes to military matters.

But, it does not change the fact. The military is commanded by a civilian.

Quoting merlot (Reply 29):
Look what happened when America lost the Vietnam War: Nothing.

Different issues. The current war is against a movement that threatens anyone that doesn't believe as they do. and, more to the point, have a suicide complex in which they don't care what happens to themselves, so long as the end is acheived. The Vietnamese, and their sponsors, had no desire to see themselves destroyed in the process of spreading Communisim. A US loss here will have reprecussions for generations.
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:25 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):

I think Odierno should be at the top of the list, however would it be too much for the General to handle. The General is tough (he's from New Jersey), but could he go from commanding one war zone to another without a break. How many years has he been in Iraq, away from his family? He's been given CENTCOM as a reward for his duty in Iraq, taking that away and sending him straight to Afghanistan might be too much for anyone.

Quoting merlot (Reply 29):
America's biggest problems are at home and far more Americans are at threat (and will in fact die) from domestic problems as opposed to whatever is happening in Afghanistan. McChrystal should be moved from Afghanistan and into fixing the countless problems on the home front...the 15k to be lost this year in crime, the 50% of city kids who will never graduate, the crumbling infrastructure, etc....

Agreed, move the troops from Afghanistan to the Mexican border. If we rounded up all the illegals in this country crime would certainly drop 15-20%, the hospitals would be less crowded and classrooms would not be crowded.
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STT757
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:26 pm

The meeting is over, it took about 30 minutes. That brief a meeting possibly indicates he submitted his resignation, and the President accepted.
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fxramper
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:34 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 41):
The meeting is over, it took about 30 minutes. That brief a meeting possibly indicates he submitted his resignation, and the President accepted.

NBC thinks not. Guess we'll wait for official word.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37866754/ns/us_news-military/
 
AGM100
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:43 pm

You what would be nice ... if the President sided with the General . Maybe come out and say ..hey ya the General made some points about my staff and we are going to work to make changes and clear up the concerns of the general. " I want to win in Afghanistan !!" ...and the general is my choice to lead the fight against the Talleeeban. Done ... the President will look like a real decider and a fighter and would have my support for one.

Ya ..not going to happen.
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Ken777
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:13 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Ya ..not going to happen.

Probably not because the General and his staff cannot be trusted. They forgot how to be an officer who has been given major authorities.

It's time for the Flag Clubs to set some higher standards, starting with themselves.
 
mt99
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:20 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Ya ..not going to happen.

Its like those people who post disparaging remarks about their employers on face book. They get canned.
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skyservice_330
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
You what would be nice ... if the President sided with the General

It isn't his job to be 'nice' in this situation. The General, and his staff, were out of line.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
hey ya the General made some points about my staff and we are going to work to make changes and clear up the concerns of the general.

Had the concerns not been aired in public through the media, perhaps this could have occurred.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
I want to win in Afghanistan !!"

The US Military is greater than one General. I am sure that they can "win in Afghanistan" in the absence of the General.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
...and the general is my choice to lead the fight against the Talleeeban

After this incident though, how can the President identify him as his 'choice' especially if:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
the General and his staff cannot be trusted.
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
the President will look like a real decider and a fighter

On the contrary. The President would look like a decider if he made it clear to all that he is the CIC and this type of behavior will not be tolerated. Sitting back and doing nothing, as the CIC, after the General decided to air his grievances to the media would not make the President look like a fighter or decider, IMHO.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:37 pm

I know that it's no excuse for their behavior, but what of the staff's comments themselves? I find it disturbing that even among officers that may have voted for Obama, once they have met with him, they have lost a lot of their respect for the CinC.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:13 pm

General Stanley McChrystal would be wise to remember that this war is not about bringing democracy to Afghanistan and allowing little Afghan girls to throw off their burkas and attend school but to subdue the Taliban who just happen to be sitting on $3,000,000,000,000.00 worth of copper and lithium ore.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?

Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:12 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 48):
General Stanley McChrystal would be wise to remember that this war is not about bringing democracy to Afghanistan and allowing little Afghan girls to throw off their burkas and attend school but to subdue the Taliban who just happen to be sitting on $3,000,000,000,000.00 worth of copper and lithium ore.

Agreed, but if we end up supporting a dictator who promises to keep the Taliban under control, we will again be criticized for that as well. This has happened many times before. The fact of the matter is that Afghanistan is culturally primitive and tribal, and given the choice between a modern democracy with freedoms we consider essential in developed countries, and some sort of totalitarian government that persecutes religious and political minorities and women, a very sizable part of the Afghan population will happily choose the latter.

How do you deal with that?

But I have to give McChrystal credit for one thing. He can do something the worst ecological disaster in recent history could not do - Get a prompt reaction out of Obama.

Freezing in the south last year? Nope.

Do anything about the oil spill? Nope

Meet with head of BP? Uh-uh

Even mention the oil spill? No.

Visit the Gulf coast? Nope.

Meet with the Governor of Arizona? Nah.

Secure the borders? Not a chance.

But if you insult Obama? Instant reaction! Get McChrystal from the other side of the world here in 24 hours!
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