NIKV69
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Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:43 pm

Absolutely disgusting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38084497/ns/world_news-europe/


It's bad enough the relatives of the victims had to go through what they did but now they have to deal with this. Did Scotland examine this person? They say he they did but the Doctor that did really blew the diagnosis. Maybe this was a trade deal? Guess we will never know.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
GST
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:34 pm

It is expected from time to time patients will survive well beyond their doctor's prognosis, by months, and occasionally years. From an entirely non medical background I cannot answer why, but guess it could be luck mixed with a strong person's mind and body. The fact that occasionally prognoses are underestimated (and also frequently overestimated) should not matter, the doctor who examined al-Megrahi is a highly respected person in his field, and I have no doubt that the prognosis he gave would have been the same as that of most other doctors.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:58 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 1):
It is expected from time to time patients will survive well beyond their doctor's prognosis, by months, and occasionally years. From an entirely non medical background I cannot answer why, but guess it could be luck mixed with a strong person's mind and body. The fact that occasionally prognoses are underestimated (and also frequently overestimated) should not matter, the doctor who examined al-Megrahi is a highly respected person in his field, and I have no doubt that the prognosis he gave would have been the same as that of most other doctors.

I am no doctor but we went from 6 months to live to now he is totally off chemo and expected to live 10 years? Which probably means he wasn't terminal at atll. This was a scam in every sense of the term.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
baroque
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:14 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
This was a scam in every sense of the term.

Possibly one to get close to the scam of convicting him in the first place don't you think?

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/gareth-peirce/the-framing-of-al-megrahi

But fear not, no doubt this will give you more to rail at.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...secrets-in-memoirs-86908-22381626/

Lockerbie bomber al-Megrahi could spill his secrets in memoirs

Jul 4 2010 Exclusive by Mark Aitken, Sunday Mail

SECRET documents that could clear the Lockerbie bomber's name will be published in his controversial autobiography.

Sources close to Abdelbaset al-Megrahi have confirmed that his crucial grounds for appeal will be contained in his memoirs.

An investigation by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, which lasted three years, concluded that there were six grounds for believing Megrahi may have suffered a miscarriage of justice.

Megrahi has refused to make those public - until now.

Last night, sources close to the team working on the book confirmed it was well under way.

And respected publishing house Mainstream refused to confirm or deny their involvement.

One source said: "His life was supposed to be over - yet he's working on his life story. It's an incredible turnaround for someone who was supposed to have died months ago."


There you go.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:24 am

This was a scam from day 1 at the Scottish authorities were up to their ears in it.

How on earyth a criminal of this noteriety can be released on these grounds via some quiet back room deal is beyond me. Took years to prosecute these guys. Took what seemed like 5 minutes to overturn it all.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:00 am

Abdelbaset al-Megrahi is now living a relaxing life surrounded by his family in a luxury villa in Libya and is treated as a war hero by Libyans. Personally, I can think of no better target for a Predator drone attack than this murderer.   
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
slz396
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:30 am

al-Megrahi just did a job on behalf of his government, just like the pilots of the US fighterjets that bombed Tripoli, killing several innocent people in their failed raid (amongst which a daughter of Khadaffi), and which was the reason for this revenge action from Lybia.

Both were utterly disgusting actions, yet one should not have punished the pianist(s) for playing bad music, but rather the composers of their play so to say, meaning both the Libian as well as the US leadership of that time for escalating politican differences to the point where they were willing to sacrefice tens and even hundreds of innocent human lives (of people from the other side) just to make a point and show their resolve...
 
fridgmus
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:11 am

A job for the "Doctors" in the SAS to take care of maybe???

Yeah, I know, but I can still dream, can't I?
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GST
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:14 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 4):

How on earyth a criminal of this noteriety can be released on these grounds via some quiet back room deal is beyond me. Took years to prosecute these guys. Took what seemed like 5 minutes to overturn it all.

Releasing him was no backroom deal, compassionate release is well established in British law, and is a feature I am very proud of. Whilst I am certain that the vast majority of those who near the end of their lives in prison are guilty, there are none the less innocents there too. I would rather have 10 murderers who gave lonely painful deaths to others spend their last weeks with their family than a single innocent dying an uncomfortable death alone by the state's order. I make no judgment about al-Megrahi, I do not know all the facts about the case, however there is plenty of evidence to point to a potential miscarriage of justice. I am only saddened that he was forced to drop his appeal and admit guilt to be released under this, how many innocents may have had to make the painful decision to die alone, or with their families & a stain on their name? The conviction was by no means overturned, whether it would have been just to overturn it or not, none of us can say for certain.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:21 am

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 7):
A job for the "Doctors" in the SAS to take care of maybe???

I doubt that the British Government has the balls to send the SAS to perform "final surgery" on the Lockerbie bomber. It would be too expensive, as Mr Cameron is only focussed on saving money even when this means that toilets are only cleaned once a month instead of once a day.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
slz396
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:47 am

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 7):
A job for the "Doctors" in the SAS to take care of maybe???

That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to Lockerbie disasters...

Some go-it-alone country has a problem with somebody, so it decides to go after him in all possible and even illegal ways; then his country is furious and decides to retalliate for what is an obious violation of their sovereignty, so the first country obviously has to hit back too now, even if this is done just to keep the appearance up they were doing nothing wrong and were wrongfully accused, yet while doing so, they happen to kill even more innocent people who have nothing to do with all this really, and before you know it, the next thing is a 747 blown up over your house as ultimate retalliation.... great!

Haven't we learnt anything yet?

You can't always have your way, nor can you always be right... Besides, every story has 2 sides, and yours likely isn't always going to be the good and just one. Failure to understand the others may have a valid point too, is often the first step of an every escalating conflict.

[Edited 2010-07-05 02:48:24]
 
fridgmus
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:38 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):

Yes, you do raise a valid point. However, I believe that terrorists who kill innocent people should be punished. IMO, al-Magrahi has avoided his punishment and I believe the only punishment for pigs like him is LIFE in prison, regardless of his health or death.

Go ahead and call me a war monger etc etc. That is your right in a free society. Sometimes you just have to take a more direct course of action, not always, but sometimes.

Just expressing my opinion.
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ltbewr
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:13 am

Until the 1970's, a person like this would have been murdered by the CIA or as to the UK, their version of it. Of course for good reason that can't be done anymore (unless in Iraq/Afganistan). I guess the need or greed for oil, the need to support mega oil companies (like BP who have created one of the worst pollution disasters) exceeds the assurance of making those that support terror and from oil rich countries are given the painful penalites they deserve.
 
slz396
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:42 am

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 11):
I believe that terrorists who kill innocent people should be punished

I am with you on this, but what is a terrorist? One man's terrorist, is another man's freedomfighter.

Also, in today's world we have the phenomenon of what we call state terrorism when it is practiced by our opponents, and which is called pre-emptive unilateral military action when it is used by our allies, some of which are democracies even!

I mean, it's a completely different discussion, but the Israeli raid on the freedom flotilla in international waters is a clear exemple of how difficult it is to draw a line. I'm pretty sure there are countries on earth that would have been accused of state terrorism if their army were to invade a fleet of humanitarian relief ships in international waters planning on sailing to one of its ports with nothing but relief aid and activists on board, killing ten peace activists...

Not to mention there are thousands of US service men who have merely followed oders, yet were acting illegally too when they were torturing or even killing what could be described as innocent people somewhere oversees too.

Just because a cause seems just to you, doesn't give you the right to violate the basic human rights of your opponents.

[Edited 2010-07-05 04:45:41]
 
Superfly
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:57 pm

It's mind-blowing that this piece of filth is still walking this planet. To add insult to injury, he is a free man!
What in the hell is wrong with Scotland?
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baroque
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
Quoting fridgmus (Reply 11):
I believe that terrorists who kill innocent people should be punished

I am with you on this, but what is a terrorist? One man's terrorist, is another man's freedomfighter.

Gee fridgmus, do you really want retribution to happen for ALLl the unlawful killings over the past 9 years or is this a rather selective statement as slz suggests?

So you are going to assist Dilawar's rels to pay 519th Military Intelligence Battalion a visit with retribution on their collective minds?

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=dilawar

He even has a Wiki entry these days. Do be careful what you wish for.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:24 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
What in the hell is wrong with Scotland?

Pussyfication of Europe and spineless relativism as displayed in reply #10 and #13.
 
Superfly
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:28 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
Pussyfication of Europe and spineless relativism as displayed in reply #10 and #13.
Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
Besides, every story has 2 sides,

Failure to understand the others may have a valid point too

 Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!


WOW!
I damned near hit the floor after reading that!

Over the top!
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):

I am no doctor but we went from 6 months to live to now he is totally off chemo and expected to live 10 years? Which probably means he wasn't terminal at atll. This was a scam in every sense of the term.

I am a doctor and I'm equally flabbergasted. So don't feel bad.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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BMI727
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
You were not playing nice, you were hoping he would knock off the Ayatollahs in Iran.

Darn right. Sometimes one must befriend bad people to fight worse people (better them than us), the mistake was not turning around and taking him out for good in 91. It was no secret that Saddam was a really bad guy, but we should not have left him there after he outlived his usefulness.

Saddam was not just another warlord. This was not a porcine loudmouth like Hugo Chavez, but an evil man on par with Hitler.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
History suggests that you would have let Adolf be if it had not been that after Japan invaded Pearl H in what they call a moment of hubris, he declared war on the US, or did that slip your mind?

And would it have been the right thing to do to just stand by while Hitler did his thing? Was it wrong to stand beside Stalin while fighting Hiter? It isn't always black and white, but removing Saddam was the right thing to do.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
So much for respecting the rights of sovereign countries.

There is only one way to enforce sovereignty: force. Military force, economic force, or otherwise. If we want the Lockerbie bomber bad enough, we can try to get him. After all, the only justification we have is the belief that we are right and they are wrong.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 am

As you may have noticed, I had to delete about half of the posts in this thread, because it was veering off-topic into a general discussion about terrorism and US Presidents, which is definitely uncalled for.

Please stick to the topic being discussed. Thank you.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
fridgmus
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:15 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):

slz, my statement is directed towards al-Megrahi ONLY.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
So you are going to assist Dilawar's rels to pay 519th Military Intelligence Battalion a visit with retribution on their collective minds?

Baroque, what happened to Dilawar was horrible and a War Crime plain and simple. Those interrogators crossed waaaaay over the line and should have to answer for it via the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Torture and sadism have no place in a proper interrogation or anywhere else in this world.

It has nothing to do with my statement regarding al-Megrahi, who was convicted of the Lockerbie Bombing in a court of law. It meant a quick shot to head or return him to prison for life, not torture.

Of course action should be reserved until after this "New Evidence" has come to light and properly examined.

If this new evidence comes to light exonerating him, I will gladly retract my statement.

Outstanding posts, all of you.   

F
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Acheron
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:24 am

I love to see those that love to claim how different they are to some people, through our "western superiority" pretty much write the same crap I would expect to read in a extremist muslim site.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:00 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 6):
al-Megrahi just did a job on behalf of his government, just like the pilots of the US fighterjets that bombed Tripoli, killing several innocent people in their failed raid (amongst which a daughter of Khadaffi), and which was the reason for this revenge action from Lybia.
Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to Lockerbie disasters...
Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
I am with you on this, but what is a terrorist? One man's terrorist, is another man's freedomfighter.

When you wake up from this little fantasy you are living in, maybe you will understand that we do not live in a world where everyone hugs each other, and holds hands by the camp fire.

If you fail to see the difference between placing a bomb on a 747 with the intention to kill everyone on board, whether it be women, children, you don't care who? versus striking a target with missles, then there is no use in explaining things to you. Blowing up a civilian airliner in flight is nothing but a terrorist act!! Explain how you can justify that one.
 
slz396
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:43 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 23):
Explain how you can justify that one.

If you think you have some god-given right to risk the lives of innocent people allover the world while persuing your political aims by the use of military force, you shouldn't be pretending to regret the actual loss of innocent live during your attacks, nor should you be surprised if the country attacked retaliates even stronger, by whatever mean it feels suitable.

If you don't want a plane of yours to be blown up by secret agents of some country you've attacked first, maybe you shouldn't engage in illegal attacks on that country and its citizens either then? Changes are that some sort of moderation would actually have prevented all of this from happening.

Naive?

Maybe, but definitely not more naive than your 'we'll get them' attitude, as we all know what that leads to, don't we?
 
Mudboy
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 24):
f you think you have some god-given right to risk the lives of innocent people allover the world while persuing your political aims by the use of military force, you shouldn't be pretending to regret the actual loss of innocent live during your attacks, nor should you be surprised if the country attacked retaliates even stronger, by whatever mean it feels suitable.

Kind of like what we did to Afghanistan after 9/11-01? Ok, I get your point!
 
slz396
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:35 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 25):
Kind of like what we did to Afghanistan after 9/11-01? Ok, I get your point!


Whereas the invasion of Afghanistan is a different case since it is not a limited unilateral military action to knock some person out, but rather an internationally and legally justified invastion of a country: indeed.

Personally I am strongly against the war in Afghanistan (like a majority of people in Europe BTW), because it is a war which can't be won and as such has no reason to be fought; NATO troops have been engaged in pointless combats with Afghan insurgents since day one, and they will continue to be for as long as they are present in Afghanistan with no long term effects to be expected from their presence, at least not beyond the day they leave!

One day we will have to pull out of Afghanistan (in 5, 10 or 20 years) and then the country will rapidly fall back into its pre-war state of political chaos, tribal wars and religious fundamentalism, just as it was before the war. it's a given.

NATO will have achieved nothing by the time it pulls out, just as the USSR didn't achieve anything in their 10 years of fighting or the British in their 20 year long war.... each time the country fell back to its original conditions: why would NATO (and the US) be more successful? We're nothing special really, and the US have lost wars before too: Vietnam for instance or Somalia.... you can already add Afghanistan to the list, and Obama knows it, which is why his only concern is to make an elegant exit from Afghanistan, so at least there will some time in between the US leaving and chaos returning: it's a long way from the GWB bigtalk about "smoking them out" and "spreading democracy", isn't it?

[Edited 2010-07-07 23:45:16]
 
Acheron
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:50 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 23):
Blowing up a civilian airliner in flight is nothing but a terrorist act!! Explain how you can justify that one.


Thanks for clarifying that one up. Now I know what to call the Iran Air flight shot down by the USS Vincennes.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:10 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
Thanks for clarifying that one up. Now I know what to call the Iran Air flight shot down by the USS Vincennes.

And of course that was not a tragic, monumental F*** up, that was the big, bad US Navy taking target practice, right?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Lockerbie Bomber Alive And Kicking

Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Did Scotland examine this person? They say he they did but the Doctor that did really blew the diagnosis. Maybe this was a trade deal?

Much is possible. But in case of cancer, a lot depends on psychological factors. It in other words is possible that he if in Scotland would have passed out in the meantime, but that back home in sunny Libya found his self-confidence, so important to overcome cancer, back again.

Another question is about medical care. Up in Scotland, the medical care for him was the medical care for prisoners, but back in Tripoli, he got the medical support of top doctors (many educated in the UK !! )

And so, you might have questions about UK NHS, particularily in HM's prisons !

-

Quoting GST (Reply 1):
patients will survive well beyond their doctor's prognosis, by months, and occasionally years.

-
an uncle of me had a bad accident in 1955, and the doctors told him that his life expectancy was one or two years. As his father (my grandfather) had suffered a stroke in 1943 (nicely recovered in all functions then) he did not tell anybody except his two brothers about the matter. The man did not die, but still lives on and now is 84 years old. My father passed away in 1990 and the other brother in 2007, and mum who participated in the 2007 funeral in 2008, but the man whose death was forecast more than half a century ago still is going on and lives in his own house with his wife.

----

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 4):
a criminal of this noteriety can be released on these grounds via some quiet back room deal is beyond me.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
What in the hell is wrong with Scotland? Pussyfication of Europe and spineless relativism as displayed in reply #10 and #13

While you both possibly are guilty of "pussification of reality" :
- A) it to all evidence known, but then gradually twisted, it was not primarily Libya but Iran which did the Lockerbie job, with Libya giving some helpful hands to the Iranians. I in this refer to some numbers of the Sunday Times, whose research-team gave a clear evidence of the guilt of Iran, until the whole team was replaced by a new one which needed less than a week to conclude that it was NOT Iran but Libya
- B) Megrahi was NOT the one really in charge on the Libyan side anyway but just the one who took the charge, on the order of his supreme leadership and under the promise to get freed, freed for sure in far less the time he actually served .... this is an aspect overlooked by all the people, many A-nutters apparently among them, who believe "supreme leader" Muammar al-Khaddafi to be a democrat !

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