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OA260
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Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:36 am

In another escalation to the aid flotilla issue Turkey seeks an appology. I wonder if it will be forthcoming.

Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid

Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.

The Turkish foreign minister said such a break could only be averted if Israel accepted an international inquiry into the incident.

The Israeli government said it has nothing to apologise for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10505386.stm
 
slz396
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:56 am

Looks like Turkey is not going to let go of this violation of its territory (as the fleet sailed under Turkish flag) in international waters, with the killing of 9 people who fought off the illegal invasion. What Israel did is considered piracy under international law and Israel should indeed appologize for its behaviour rather than pretend it did nothing wrong. They did, even if they (think they) had good reasons for it, so Israel should come of it's high horse and appologize, rather than pretend it did nothing wrong and thus allign itself with rough states like Iran or North Korea which think international rules aren't applicable to them either.
 
iakobos
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:45 am

Turkish political vision has changed. Emphasis is now on the ME and their Islamic neighbours.
What follows are simply planned stages in that context.


Quoting oa260 (Thread starter):
In another escalation to the aid flotilla issue Turkey seeks an appology. I wonder if it will be forthcoming.
Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid
Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.
The Turkish foreign minister said such a break could only be averted if Israel accepted an international inquiry into the incident.
The Israeli government said it has nothing to apologise for.

Turkey (everybody in fact) knew there would be a clash, Israel will not apologize, diplomatic ties will be cut, etc...
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU
Expect official visits of Erdogan to ME states and vice versa, new contracts, partnerships, etc...
 
EL-AL
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:24 pm

Turkish prime minister is looking for reason to cut international relations with Israel for a while, first it was the war in Gaza, then the diplomatic incident with the Turkish ambassador, now the flotilla...

Even if Israel do apologize (as I knew my Prime Minister, eventually he will) Turkey will have more demands, otherwise they will cut relations with Israel, and all over Again. My guess that few weeks prior to the Turkish elections Erdugan will announce on the breaking of international relations between Turkey and Israel.
every day is a good day to fly
 
us330
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:09 pm

Quoting oa260 (Thread starter):
Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid

Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.

The Turkish government has backtracked somewhat from that statement, according to CNN.
From the linked article:

"The Foreign Ministry later claimed the minister had been misquoted, saying he actually said that without an apology or inquiry, "it will not be possible for our relationship to improve."

A Turkish Foreign Ministry official told CNN that Davutoglu's comments were " a strong warning to Israel," yet did not exactly mean ending relations"


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...urkey.no.apology/index.html?hpt=T1
 
raffik
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:13 pm

Perhaps they weren't looking for a reason but were faced with all of these reasons to break international ties.

What Israel did to the boat was illegal. We are talking about international waters, and the fact that the Israelis
refuse an independent inquiry make a lot of people wonder what they have to hide.

They really are a law upon themselves. And with so much unconditional support from America, there is rarely
any justice for the people who are hurt by their actions. Look at the destruction of large parts of Beirut in 2006
and the breaking up of Palestinian land. Hardly fair. Good for Turkey for taking a stand.
- Alec
 
Severnaya
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:17 pm

That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
baroque
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:22 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

Maybe they can advance on this headline even, given a bit of thought.

GOP chairman: Afghan 'war of Obama's choosing'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100702/...us_republican_chairman_afghanistan

Quoting Raffik (Reply 5):
Good for Turkey for taking a stand.

   Asking for an apology is also a neat way to ensure the spat will continue and BN will never ever apologise.
 
raffik
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:22 pm

Since when does breaking diplomatic ties with Israel close doors to EU membership? It's worth too much to the Union for them to stop Turkey joining
- Alec
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

When did Israel become a member of the EU? Even the EU condemns the attack on the flotilla. At any rate, it ensures Turkey's position as a Middle East regional power, making sure international law is obeyed.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting Raffik (Reply 5):
Good for Turkey for taking a stand.

Asking for an apology is also a neat way to ensure the spat will continue and BN will never ever apologise.

I was just a kid when BN was first elected prime minister of Israel, but from what I've seen, his party just doesn't want to make concessions of any kind. To apologize would be seen as a defeat and a grave for his political career, and yet to not apologize would mean lose a very valuable ally in a region where allies and stability is needed. He knows what to do. Whether he's choosing his career over his country and Israelis are willing to go along with it is another matter.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Severnaya
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:58 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
When did Israel become a member of the EU? Even the EU condemns the attack on the flotilla.

I did not say Israel is a member of the EU. Furthermore not all EU member states are condemning the so called "attack" on the flotilla.

I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel) of the EU for this reason, is not helping their path to accession in the EU.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:07 pm

This is all for domestic theater. Mr. Erdogan's AK Party is going to be facing the voters with the main opposition party having got a new leader and some momentum.
These tough talking anti-Israel tirades play well to the masses especially in Anatolia.

Turks can certainly do as they want, but in my view at the end of the day its Turkey that will loose out by its reckless comments and actions towards Israel, while at the same time codling regimes like Iran.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
sw733
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:11 pm

The Turkish-Israeli relationship is, I think, critical for the region. Israel needs some friends in the region, and losing their most important one, leaving them with only Jordan and Egypt, cannot be accepted.

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

The EU would love another reason to keep Turkey out of their group
 
777way
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:44 pm

Quoting severnaya (Reply 10):
I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel)

Are you serious, strong how? to defend Turkey against whom? shame on Turkey is they have to kiss a** of someone who has no respect for them.
 
iakobos
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:08 pm

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

Turkey understood a long time ago that the door is closed until "sometime a long time" in the future.
Besides a probable local agenda, they can play their foreign politics as they wish.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:10 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Turks can certainly do as they want, but in my view at the end of the day its Turkey that will loose out by its reckless comments and actions towards Israel,

You are right in the first half but very wrong in the second. Turkey is becoming a very strong player in the area. a very strong military, a fast growing economy and manufacturer, a tourism magnet among others, Israel will loose a lot if they loose Turkey, not the other way around.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
777way
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:51 pm

I like the way some people are making Turkey seem at fault and a pariah state, poor loner Turkey without Israel you're nothing, yeah right.
 
iakobos
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:13 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 12):
The EU would love another reason to keep Turkey out of their group

Absolutely not, the basket of good reasons is full.
I cannot avoid thinking that Turkey has precisely decided to open a new chapter in their modern history, if the country's dynamism cannot expand into Europe, they will make it flow East and South, they simply cannot remain idle at this juncture.
Breaking (on the surface at least) with Israel is a pre-condition.

The next 5-6 years will be interesting.
 
EL-AL
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:58 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 17):
The next 5-6 years will be interesting.



The up coming elections in Turkey (due to the end of this year I think) will tell us more about where Turkey is heading, or at least what the Turks think about their current leadership (which is not bad at all by the way, Turkey's economy has made substantial progress since 2002, then the current party took leadership from Bulent Ecevit).
every day is a good day to fly
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:01 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
You are right in the first half but very wrong in the second. Turkey is becoming a very strong player in the area. a very strong military, a fast growing economy and manufacturer, a tourism magnet among others, Israel will loose a lot if they loose Turkey, not the other way around.

Very true , Israel needs Turkey not the other way around.
 
baroque
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

The US in general or are you assigning a single thought to the entire nation? Just asking, because it seems a little less than exact to say what you did. Does the US understand anything at all? Well, since the US has propped up a significant part of the world over the last 100 years I'd say yes, and since much of the world outside of the US is continuously involved in silliness ranging from petty to horrifyingly bad I'd feel it's ok to ask the opposite.

You really need to put my response in context. This was:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

I was clearly referring to the US Sec (presumably of State) who by default becomes the rep of the US. I do think you protest a bit too much in suggesting that the US has propped up a significant part of the world over the last 100 years. For the first 30 of that it was difficult to get the US engaged. There was a period of about 20 years when propping was a major activity. Since then it has spent a considerable amount of time being less than happy with the product of the European propping activity.

As to silliness, the problem seen from outside the US is that while the rest of the world shows a generally declining level of silliness, the US shows perhaps and increasing tendency to "silliness". Not least when it attributes the actions of the Turkish government to the EU. And you could hardly say that the US has made a splendid contribution to easing ME tension post Carter I would have thought??? Which makes comment about Turkey less than prima facie plausible. Remember also that the US got Turkey rather annoyed in relation to the Iraq invasion and one way and another got close to having a war with Turkey in relation to the Kurdish part of Iraq..

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
International piracy? What do you call a fleet of ships that is headed to a group of people who are assaulting you with the intent of re-supplying them?

Sounds like a new definition of piracy coming up. I always thought there was a difference between blockade runners and pirates????? Then there are legal and illegal blockades, but I don't suppose we are going to agree there.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:33 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
I'd say that Europe's goverments' making demands of Turkey to which they acquiesced, and modified much of their system, weakening the secular controls and checks over the government in place as a result, followed by the rejection from the EU has driven the Turks in other directions where they feel less encumbered by the desires of their western neighbors to continue down the path of democracy rather than religious rule.

Secular is good, but the controls were done by the military. That's not really democracy. And there is no formal rejection of Turkey from the EU, the process is still open. However Turkey is not making any progress on several crucial subjects, like Cyprus.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NAV20
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:26 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
but if they had used UZIs you can actually fire them in single shots if you're well trained, and the Israeli military is very well trained.

Some highly-coordinated military geniuses MIGHT be able to do that with an 'open bolt' SMG set to automatic, dl021 - all I can say is that I'm not one of them. Give me an SMLE any day - all anyone would have needed with them was one shot, which would have gone where it was aimed............

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
as you can see they didn't wholesale open up on the crowd that assaulted them the instant they hit the deck of the vessel.

11 killed and 40 wounded among the people on the ship - no serious injuries among the Israeli forces? Sounds pretty one-sided to me? As far as I can tell, the operation was just badly-planned - we've all known ever since Arnhem (or maybe even the Germans in Crete in 1941  ; that airborne troops are very vulnerable as they land. My guess is that, as you say, the first lot landed just with paintball guns and pistols; but once some of the people on the ship went for them (with clubs and things, not firearms) things got out of hand and the Israelis lost their heads and mindlessly put the (fully-armed) 'heavy mob' in......

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
When they were being shot at by the "peace activists" with everything from .30 caliber shot from slingshots (deadly) to rifle fire, they were given permission to fire from their pistols

Can you provide any facts at ALL to support that statement? In everything I've read about it I';ve seen nothing at all about any Israeli soldier copping a 'GSW' (gunshot wound)? As against at least 50 civilians on the ship who got at least one, many of them five or more?

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
Get the facts straight and look at both sides of this. International piracy?

OK - if you prefer, I'll use the old-fashioned term. 'War crimes'........

[Edited 2010-07-06 09:28:24]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
dl021
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:16 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
but if they had used UZIs you can actually fire them in single shots if you're well trained, and the Israeli military is very well trained.

Some highly-coordinated military geniuses MIGHT be able to do that with an 'open bolt' SMG set to automatic, dl021 - all I can say is that I'm not one of them. Give me an SMLE any day - all anyone would have needed with them was one shot, which would have gone where it was aimed............

Well, ok...I don't think it takes a genius...just someone with decent trigger control. With a little practice you can get any open bolt weapon with less than a 800-900rpm rof to do that, but it's sort of a moot point. 2 to 3 round bursts are training standards. Plus, they don't issue UZI's as standard equipment anymore.

BUT....I fully agree...one round from an SMLE is WAAAAYYY more effective than a 9mm roundnose from anything.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
11 killed and 40 wounded among the people on the ship - no serious injuries among the Israeli forces?

Once again....facts being important....I referred to the imbalance in reporting....several Israeli troops were badly hurt, but the reporting focuses on thie things the reporters and editors are interested in portraying to re-inforce their own preset beliefs and predispositions.

But, once again....we're arguing minutiae instead of discussing overall truths. The point is that the fleet of vessels was sent to provoke the Israelis, and due to past experience the Israelis, who aren't stupid and knew they were being provoked, felt like they had to act to prevent the possibility of materials dangerous to them being delivered to people who are actively trying to hurt them.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
Secular is good, but the controls were done by the military. That's not really democracy. And there is no formal rejection of Turkey from the EU, the process is still open. However Turkey is not making any progress on several crucial subjects, like Cyprus.

I will agree that it wasn't ideal, and ran counter to democratic principles, but they kept the civilian governments from turning into religious theocracies, or from being controlled by religious oligarches as happens elsewhere, and allowed democracy to grow, as happened over the last 60 years or so.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
You really need to put my response in context. This was:

I did...but the problem was how you phrased it and how many read it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.


I was clearly referring to the US Sec (presumably of State) who by default becomes the rep of the US.

It wasn't that clear, but again....arguing minutiae instead of discussing larger points.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Remember also that the US got Turkey rather annoyed in relation to the Iraq invasion and one way and another got close to having a war with Turkey in relation to the Kurdish part of Iraq..

In this point you fail to mention that Turkey's 'near war' with us in relation to Kurdish parts of Iraq was not a conflict with us, but with the Kurds, whom we were securing. There was about zero chance of armed conflict between US and Turkish forces. Also nothing there about Turkey's concerns about our close relations with the Kurds, against whom they've been fighting for years (not to mention their human rights violations in those conflicts) nor about their desire to ensure that they dictate the terms in the water issues that are still likely to arise from the downstream nations who are worried about what Turkey is going to do with their primary sources of fresh water...... It's not just that Turkey is concerned with what we're doing...it's what we're doing that they think will undermine their goals, and whether or not they feel like they can benefit from a relationship with us.

They're not feeling the love from the west right now....and it's easier to inflame their citizens in pursuit of domestic political agendas than it is to take the high road. Cyprus, Kurdistan, water rights....all those things are real to them, EU membership (which was dangled in front of them and then taken away) turned into a demeaning slap. That plays into their decision making, and made it easier for their government (or members thereof) to spend political capital to support the Palestineans, whom they'd never allow to act out in their country....see how they treat the Kurds.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
777way
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 23):
EU membership (which was dangled in front of them and then taken away) turned into a demeaning slap.

I call it a wakeup call for Turkey and they should be thankful.

[Edited 2010-07-06 10:30:06]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:26 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 23):
But, once again....we're arguing minutiae instead of discussing overall truths. The point is that the fleet of vessels was sent to provoke the Israelis, and due to past experience the Israelis, who aren't stupid and knew they were being provoked, felt like they had to act to prevent the possibility of materials dangerous to them being delivered to people who are actively trying to hurt them.

I don't know if they're stupid, but what they did was pretty stupid in my book. They knew what those ships were for a long time, they were not warships in any way or form, there were no long range weapon of any kind on board, so why oh why would they attack in international waters ? It doesn't make any sense.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
new contracts, partnerships, etc..

-
exactly. Turkish industry has the Arab World and Central Asia and South Asia as its most important markets. Turkish companies are building airports and seaports between Casablanca and Bangkok, And so, to improve the relations with the Arab World is given some priorities over the links to Israel

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

-
Is that a kind of threat ? Does the relationship with the EU depend on how the relations with Israel are ?

Quoting severnaya (Reply 10):
I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel) of the EU for this reason, is not helping their path to accession in the EU.

-
a strong partner of the E.U. ? you mean a country, which has the size of just some of the smaller EU members is a strong partner of the EU ?

Quoting sw733 (Reply 12):
The Turkish-Israeli relationship is, I think, critical for the region. Israel needs some friends in the region, and losing their most important one, leaving them with only Jordan and Egypt, cannot be accepted.

-
Well, the Israelis might improve their relations with the Hellenic Republic !

Quoting iakobos (Reply 17):
f the country's dynamism cannot expand into Europe, they will make it flow East and South, they simply cannot remain idle at this juncture.

-
Turkey CAN expand into Western-Europe, as it still is member of countless European organisations, as Turkish Airlines owns subsidiaries in Mediterranean Europe nd is to expand even more, as Turkish banks are increasingly established all over Western Europe, but Turkey will of course try to play the "bridge role" in between Europe, the Arab World, Central Asia and South Asia.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Secular is good, but the controls were done by the military. That's not really democracy. And there is no formal rejection of Turkey from the EU, the process is still open. However Turkey is not making any progress on several crucial subjects, like Cyprus

-
In case of Cyprus, the problem is not Turkey but Greek Cyprus which refuses any sensible compromise, and insists on the status-quo-ante, which is no longer on the card. But far worse is the Kurdistan problem. Which may become even more acute, should Iraqi Kurdistan go for full independence earlier or later, as it will.
 
Severnaya
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:13 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Is that a kind of threat ?

No.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Does the relationship with the EU depend on how the relations with Israel are ?

For EU-membership yes.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
you mean a country, which has the size of just some of the smaller EU members is a strong partner of the EU ?

Economically most likely no. However in friendship-ties yes.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
iakobos
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:19 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
In case of Cyprus, the problem is not Turkey but Greek Cyprus which refuses any sensible compromise

Sensible ? compromise ? nothing anywhere close to these words has ever appeared on any table.
If I am wrong, and my long and well documented knowledge of this specific subject (including in the field) allow me to doubt it, please raise a point that might give some weight to what you seem to defend against all odds.


Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
as Turkish banks are increasingly established all over Western Europe

European Bank for Reconstruction and Development just (together with Taiwan) commited 185M$ to Turkish banks to allow them to build up their loan portfolios.
European Investment bank provided 2.5B Euro in loans, in 2010 only, to Turkey for renewable energy and infrastructure projects.
What banks all over W Europe ?
 
raffik
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:43 am

http://www.culturesofresistance.org/gaza-freedom-flotilla

Let us just remind ourselves about what really happened on that boat
- Alec
 
lewis
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:17 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 19):
Very true , Israel needs Turkey not the other way around.

  

Quoting severnaya (Reply 10):
I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel) of the EU for this reason, is not helping their path to accession in the EU.

I don't see why.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Well, the Israelis might improve their relations with the Hellenic Republic !

I haven't seen any problems with relations between Greece and Israel (on a political level). Only a joint naval exercise was canceled during the incident, normal, considering Greek nationals were at the time being held captive.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 28):
Sensible ? compromise ? nothing anywhere close to these words has ever appeared on any table.
If I am wrong, and my long and well documented knowledge of this specific subject (including in the field) allow me to doubt it, please raise a point that might give some weight to what you seem to defend against all odds.

Of course it would be sensible. Cyprus would have to give up its rights on its continental shelf and airspace to Turkey, the Greek side would have limited right of return while the Turkish side full, and the majority ethnic group of the island would become a minority in important decision making. The matter of Anatolian settlers that pissed of ALL Cypriots would not be addressed. Oh and the British would still keep their bases and get extra rights to exploitation of the land, territorial water and continental shelf around them. Sensible indeed.   After all these discussions on the subject, I am still trying to find out where else in the world the majority has been asked to bend over backwards (not just give in to some reasonable demands) for the minority and has been criticized for not doing so.
 
777way
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Why dosent Cyprus merge with Greece and the North with Turkey.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:48 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 31):
Why dosent Cyprus merge with Greece and the North with Turkey.

Because the former part was what started the whole Cyprus dispute. Enosis, invasion, two republics, present day problems.

Quoting severnaya (Reply 27):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Does the relationship with the EU depend on how the relations with Israel are ?

For EU-membership yes.

I still fail to see why Turkey needs to be in good terms with Israel before they are accepted into the EU. Turkey was not the one that attacked a flotilla in international waters. For Turkey to look over and forget would be detrimental to the country that lost citizens at Israel's hands. Now, if we were speaking about Cyprus, then it's another different matter entirely since a candidate country must be in good terms with all of its members before accession takes place.

Not to mention, Turkey is taking a stand and demanding that Israel, for once, acknowledges the severity of the situation. Cause and effect. Every action has its consequences. It's time Israel learned that, whether in a good way or a bad way.
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NAV20
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:02 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 23):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
but if they had used UZIs you can actually fire them in single shots if you're well trained, and the Israeli military is very well trained.

Some highly-coordinated military geniuses MIGHT be able to do that with an 'open bolt' SMG set to automatic, dl021 - all I can say is that I'm not one of them. Give me an SMLE any day - all anyone would have needed with them was one shot, which would have gone where it was aimed............

Well, ok...I don't think it takes a genius...just someone with decent trigger control. With a little practice you can get any open bolt weapon with less than a 800-900rpm rof to do that, but it's sort of a moot point. 2 to 3 round bursts are training standards. Plus, they don't issue UZI's as standard equipment anymore.

BUT....I fully agree...one round from an SMLE is WAAAAYYY more effective than a 9mm roundnose from anything.

Cheers, dl021, guess we're 'on terms' and closer to agreement.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 23):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
11 killed and 40 wounded among the people on the ship - no serious injuries among the Israeli forces?

Once again....facts being important....I referred to the imbalance in reporting....several Israeli troops were badly hurt, but the reporting focuses on thie things the reporters and editors are interested in portraying to re-inforce their own preset beliefs and predispositions.

But, once again....we're arguing minutiae instead of discussing overall truths. The point is that the fleet of vessels was sent to provoke the Israelis, and due to past experience the Israelis, who aren't stupid and knew they were being provoked, felt like they had to act to prevent the possibility of materials dangerous to them being delivered to people who are actively trying to hurt them.

With respect, you're mainly talking about the political angles and I'm rather talking about the military ones. Many years ago, as a reservist, I was sketchily trained in what they now call 'counter-terrorism.' Not in the Middle East, in those days we were more likely to have been sent to places like Cyprus. I had few talents in the military field but, thanks to having been taught to shoot by my father (who'd served in a WW1 Rifle Regiment) I was quite good with the aforesaid SMLE.

So I was told that, if we ever got involved in 'riot control,' I'd probably be entrusted with a rifle instead of just a pick-handle - and posted on a rooftop with orders to shoot anyone who looked like shooting any of us. But THEN I was handed about two pages of smudgy carbon-copied typing that told me, among other things, that if I thought it necessary to shoot some guy brandishing a gun I should ('at my peril,' - a British Army phrase meaning, in those days, that I could be charged with, and even possibly executed for, murder if I got it wrong) 'ensure before firing that no innocent bystanders were in the line of fire.'

Obviously (given that we'd have been firing at a crowd (using high-velocity jacketed bullets which would undoubtedly, at say 200 yards range, have gone clean through up to four people unless they'd hit bone head-on) such 'orders' were utterly impractical and impossible to carry out. They were just 'CYA' ('Protect Your Posterior') measures written up by clerks in the War Office. I'm just glad that 'push never came to shove' in my case.

But I STILL feel that that operation was badly-planned and 'asking for trouble.' Even the latest Special Forces 'supermen' would have been completely helpless for some seconds landing on that ship's deck, before they'd shed their harnesses and readied their weapons.

My feeling is that the 'planners' assumed that there'd be no resistance; and 'planned' - or, rather, failed to plan) the operation accordingly. There were plenty of alternatives available - for a start, the Israelis could have blocked the ship's path, forced it to stop, and started negotiating.

None of that happened - they just chose the 'bull at the gate' method. So around 15 people died (9 killed and 6 missing) and 40-plus received 'GSWs' (gunshot wounds) as a result of circumstances that would have been completely avoidable if anyone on the Israeli side had given the 'what ifs' even a moment's thought........

[Edited 2010-07-07 09:03:37]
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casinterest
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:26 pm

Does anyone else see the irony the thread title?

Turkey is threatening a Diplomatic Break?

In my opinion they broke it by allowing the Flotilla to sail. That action was an afront to diplomacy.

Israel was overagressive, but Turkey was just plain stupid in this whole fiasco.
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OA260
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:37 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
Greek Cyprus which refuses any sensible compromise,

They did , it was turned down during negotiations. A yes vote would have meant asking the Greeks to accept being ethnically cleansed from their homes/lands etc... I personally wouldnt vote to do myself out of my legally owned house or land !

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 32):
Because the former part was what started the whole Cyprus dispute. Enosis, invasion, two republics, present day problems.

As Ive advised you in previous threads you need to study your history prior to the mental block  
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:18 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 34):
In my opinion they broke it by allowing the Flotilla to sail. That action was an afront to diplomacy


They allowed ships full of desperately needed aid to the besieged people of Gaza, they did not send frigates or battleship. Unless such aid is considered an affront to Israel then your argument has no legs to stand on.
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casinterest
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:29 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
They allowed ships full of desperately needed aid to the besieged people of Gaza, they did not send frigates or battleship. Unless such aid is considered an affront to Israel then your argument has no legs to stand on.

It was against the blockade, and they knew it was. They failed to allow diplomacy and allowed the action to take place against the blockade.

My argument has plenty of legs. Actions take place where diplomacy fails, And Turkey failed miserably.
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777way
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 35):
As Ive advised you in previous threads you need to study your history prior to the mental block

Was that for me? if so I know about Cyprus history, just wondering why cant they do that now as they are divided in any case.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:00 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
Quoting oa260 (Reply 35):
As Ive advised you in previous threads you need to study your history prior to the mental block

Was that for me? if so I know about Cyprus history, just wondering why cant they do that now as they are divided in any case.

That was meant for me. But since oa260 knows better, perhaps he should enlighten us about what happened.  
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:36 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 39):
That was meant for me. But since oa260 knows better, perhaps he should enlighten us about what happened.  

Its been done to death on so many threads. I prefer to take my facts from people on the ground from both sides and having visited the whole Island a few times also.   Ive been to the places that are not on the tourist maps and visited the graves also. I know people who were refugees and forced out of their villages.
 
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:38 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 37):
It was against the blockade,


Oh thanks for reminding me of the blockade, an illegal one by all laws and humanity. And you forgot to mention that the attack was in international waters, small thing, but of course Israel are masters of diplomacy,in one hand they start there own investigation of the hi sea massacre in the other they hand officers and soldiers responsible for it medals. Yeh diplomacy at its best. Refusing international investigation, another diplomacy coup, i could go on and on.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:50 pm

Quoting severnaya (Reply 27):
Does the relationship with the EU depend on how the relations with Israel are ?

For EU-membership yes

-
as Israel is NOT a member of the EU, it should NOT have anything to do with EU membership, as Turkey
- fully recognizes Israel
- has diplomatic relations with Israel (and will also have in the future)
- supports the two-states-solution for Israel-Palestine

Quoting iakobos (Reply 28):
In case of Cyprus, the problem is not Turkey but Greek Cyprus which refuses any sensible compromise

Sensible ? compromise ? nothing anywhere close to these words has ever appeared on any table.
If I am wrong, and my long and well documented knowledge of this specific subject (including in the field) allow me to doubt it, please raise a point that might give some weight to what you seem to defend against all odds

The Greek Cypriots voted down a compromise proposal which was accepted by the Turkish Cypriot electorate

Quoting iakobos (Reply 28):
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development just (together with Taiwan) commited 185M$ to Turkish banks to allow them to build up their loan portfolios.
European Investment bank provided 2.5B Euro in loans, in 2010 only, to Turkey for renewable energy and infrastructure projects.
What banks all over W Europe ?

A) there are Turkish banks in action all over Western Europe, and by that I mean branches and subsidiaries of Turkish banks in Turkey. Look them up under www.infobel.com/teldir, the combination of electronic phone-directories.
B) CS of Switzerland, the nr 2 bank in Switzerland got rescued by Kuwait and UBS needed to be rescued by the Swiss Confederation BUT both banks have hundreds of branches all over the world and heavy investments all over the world.

Quoting 777way (Reply 31):
Why dosent Cyprus merge with Greece and the North with Turkey.
Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
just wondering why cant they do that now as they are divided in any case

This exactly is what should not happen. And Turkish Cypriots are not eager to go that route anyway because they in reality are better off then folks in the Turkish Republic. There are TWO routes to go, one is a federal settlement with two states in a kind of confederation, the other one is two independent countries on the same island. The matter will take some more time either way but will be the future
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:39 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
The Greek Cypriots voted down a compromise proposal

Because it didnt protect or safeguard the few Greek Cypriots who havnt already been pushed out of the North thats why. No rights to return to their homes or land for those that have been refugees since 1974 .

It would have also allowed tens of thousands of illegal settlers shipped in by Turkey to stay and live on the land belonging to Greeks who were forced out. Thats why they voted NO. I would have also. It would also have allowed the Turkish troops to stay. Unacceptable. Any plan should see a removal of Turkish troops replaced by UN troops if there cant be a unified Greek/Turkish Cypriot 50/50 joint defense force.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:00 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41):
Oh thanks for reminding me of the blockade, an illegal one by all laws and humanity.

Nice sidestep. At this rate we will be back to blaming Abraham and the three tribes. But blockades are not illegal.

I just find it funny that Turkey wants to save diplomacy after allowing a confrontation to be launched from their shores instead of going through a diplomatic route.
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OA260
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:41 pm

Turkish key constitutional reforms annulled by court

Turkey's Constitutional Court has annulled key parts of a package of government-backed constitutional reforms, reports say.

The court rejected an opposition appeal to scrap all of the measures, and said the remaining elements would be put to a referendum as planned.

The court annulled changes which would curb the power of the judiciary and the army, AFP news agency said.

The ruling AKP says the reforms are necessary if Turkey is to join the EU.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10547710.stm
 
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 44):
after allowing a confrontation to be launched from their shores


Again the ships were carrying essential aid to hundred of thousands of people under a inhuman blockade, tell me what is so dangerous about A4 paper among others to be included in the prohibited items. Fine if Israel wanted to stop arms from going to Gaza that is another story but don't tell me that the List does make any sense. So that makes this blockade illegal. And attacking the ship in hi seas is illegal also, refusing an international investigation body is good diplomacy. There was no intention of confrontation but Israel just because they want to show that they can chose a strong arm tactic.
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iakobos
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 45):

The ruling AKP says the reforms are necessary if Turkey is to join the EU.

Abracadabra.........waiting to see what will come out of the hat now.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:57 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
There was no intention of confrontation but Israel just because they want to show that they can chose a strong arm tactic.

Turkey chose to allow the run of the blockade to happen. If Israel were so inclined, they could have declared it an act of war and attacked Turkey.

IT doesn's matter what you feel about the legality of the blockade. The blockade was there, Turkey knew it was there, and turkey knew that Israel was enforcing it. They then allowed a bunch of peaceniks and "folks with ulterior motives" to run the blockade, pretty much putting them in harms way. That is the apitomy of irresponsibility and a confrontational move in aversion to diplomacty, The moment they left the docks they started a confrontation,
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel

Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 47):
Quoting oa260 (Reply 45):

The ruling AKP says the reforms are necessary if Turkey is to join the EU.

Abracadabra.........waiting to see what will come out of the hat now.

To me it looks as if Erdogan opposes the secular ideals of the Kemalist revolution of the 1920s and wants to stear Turkey more towards a leading role in the Middle East among the Muslim countries. Not a fullscale return of the Ottoman empire (which would never be accepted by the Arabs), but defintely a leading role, which also involves Islam.
The Kemalists on the other hand (mostly in the Turkish army as well among the Alevit minority) want to keep Turkey secular and turned towards Europe (though the army is often excessively nationalist, which was important after WW1, when the winning nations and some neighbours actually wanted to divide Turkey between themselves. Kemal Atatürk fought a war against Greece and Italy, as well as France, which wanted to seize large parts of Anatolian Turkey. That this war also, lead to a large "ethnic cleansing", with ethnic Turks being kicked out of Greece and Bulgaria, where they had been living for centuries and Greeks being kicked out of western Turkey, where they also have been living for centuries, is another matter).
The constant comments in the EU that Turkey should never join based on the religious majority and all the talk about a common Christian heritage in Europe, into which Turkey wouldn´t fit, helped Erdogan even more (not that Turkey will be ready to join the EU within the next ten years, but simply stalling negotiations with a reasoning based on religion is not ok).
I think that for Erdogan the formerly close partnership with Israel is a hindrance in his ambitions of turning Turkey away from Europe towards the Islamic world. He needed something, which would also put the nationalist, but secular Army on his side, so, while he was probably not directly involved in the convoy, he approved it and just waited for Israel´s reaction. The result was predictable. The rightwing Israeli government stepped right into the trap with their bull-in-the-china-shop tactics and gave Erdogan the pretext he wanted: a reason to cancel diplomatic relations with Israel.

Jan

[Edited 2010-07-07 15:07:38]
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