soon7x7
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US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:00 pm

Once again the tax evading Charlie Rangel is once again pushing the Draft. He is very much in favor of specifically sending sons of affluent America rather than the "poor" as he put it. Not only is this an insult to our men and women currently in uniform as many come from all walks of life, but this seems to have an underlying agenda rather than being a solution to low recruitment.
If amnesty is granted to 25,000,000 illegals, howz about mandating two years mandatory service in the US Military to prove you want to be an American...Then and only then will you have earned your Flag...any thoughts, (and no fighting...just my opinion, but one I feel strongly about). I'm interested in Viet vets remarks on this issue especially. I have a 21 year old and given the past record of conflicts this country has been involved in...It would be difficult for me to sanction my son going to war for a government that can't tie its own shoelaces. On the other hand, if we are attacked here at home, I will personally thrust a rifle in my sons hands and tell him...lets get to work...in a heartbeat!
 
Ken777
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:29 pm

The need for a draft was pretty evident when Bush had to use excessive individual deployments and Stop Loss (a "draft at the end of an enlistment") to maintain troop strengths in Iraq. Our troops were deployed for too long and had too short a time back home to rebuild and prepare for the next deployment. The draft also ensured that after your two years of active duty you were sent home. With Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld a soldier only thought he (or she) would be released from active duty when their commitment was completed. The political retention of these soldiers was only needed to avoid the political problems of a draft.

I do disagree with Charles about the poor serving. For many this was the path out of poverty because they qualified for the GI Bill with their two year service. The two big points in my day were the education support and home loans. That was a huge leverage for many. Today the education part of the GI Bill is a major help even to the middle class, simply because college is so overpriced.

The one thing I would have liked to have seen was a law that required anyone receiving a deferment for college being committed to service after they graduated.

Another thing I would like to see is the return of the 2 year active duty period for a "basic enlistment". Personally I believe that would be a wise idea for many young kids leaving high school.
 
PacNWjet
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:30 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
but this seems to have an underlying agenda rather than being a solution to low recruitment.
Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
It would be difficult for me to sanction my son going to war for a government that can't tie its own shoelaces.

Hence the underlying agenda. Representative Rangle opposes the current U.S. military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. He believes that a majority of Americans would also oppose these operations if they or their loved ones were in jeopardy of being drafted. Rangle calculates that as long as Americans can sit safely at home while others (often individuals with few economic options who join the military for financial reasons) fight America's wars, most Americans are happy to sit back and do nothing. But if everyone and their family were subject to the possibility of dying on the battlefields of unwisely waged wars, opposition to those wars would be undeniable. The main flaw in Rangle's theory is his belief that the U.S. military today is mostly comprised of individuals who see military service as their only option to earn a living (as if the entire military today was made up of characters in the Bill Murray movie "Stripes"). There are plenty of people who join the military in the U.S. because they value military service in and of itself and/or because they support the causes of U.S. foreign policy.
 
LAXintl
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:32 pm

Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:49 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
Hence the underlying agenda. Representative Rangle opposes the current U.S. military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. He believes that a majority of Americans would also oppose these operations if they or their loved ones were in jeopardy of being drafted.

I know the families of a number of soldiers who either have gone or will go to the mideast, and as it happens all of them are well-off families. Their families are supportive and proud, although the mothers tend to get worked up a bit. I think Charlie is wrong if he really thinks that drafting these guys is going to cause an upsurge of antiwar sentiment.

It has been proven over the past 100 years that a volunteer military is far more effective than an army made of draftees, both in terms of getting the job done and with the minimum of friendly losses. Rangle apparently doesn't give a damn about that, so I have a better plan for Rangle that would cost far less money and have exactly the same effect as a draft. He can sponsor a law that bans the use of body armor by our troops and the use of armored vehicles.
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avek00
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.

Compulsory national service (and I agree, it should be necessarily of a military nature) would work wonders for American society.
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sw733
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.

If so, let the USA please take Israel's policy and make it mandatory for BOTH genders. I mean, this IS 2010...

Several successful countries have conscription. Besides Israel, there is South Korea, Singapore, Thailand, Turkey, Colombia, Brazil, and several others.
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:02 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 5):
Compulsory national service (and I agree, it should be necessarily of a military nature) would work wonders for American society.

Even given what I said before, I would agree. I would not necessarily put them on the front lines, but there is a huge logistical "tail" in any military that they can work in.
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BMI727
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.

Well, if the choice is join the Army or go paint fences in a ghetto, I would join the Army. At least in Baghdad I would get to shoot back.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:10 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
He is very much in favor of specifically sending sons of affluent America rather than the "poor" as he put it.

Just like a good elitist.

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
If amnesty is granted to 25,000,000 illegals, howz about mandating two years mandatory service in the US Military to prove you want to be an American...Then and only then will you have earned your Flag...any thoughts

Great idea, would weed out the ones who just want to use this country as an ATM machine.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Well, if the choice is join the Army or go paint fences in a ghetto, I would join the Army. At least in Baghdad I would get to shoot back.

Post of the week!
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Ken777
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
It has been proven over the past 100 years that a volunteer military is far more effective than an army made of draftees, both in terms of getting the job done and with the minimum of friendly losses.

The draft for WW II resulted in a pretty effective military. Vietnam was a different story because the reason for being there and the low quality of a lot of the leadership were a force dragging the standards down. Iraq was a volunteer force, but long term the military was severely damaged by extended tours, too little time at home between deployments and the Stop Loss program. Again, bad leadership - this time at the very top.
 
soon7x7
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:30 pm

How typically beaurocratic...lets induce another draft to fight wars with "empty rifles", against the "really don't exist, Islamic radicals" so in the end we can be "non Victorious" and postumously issue "restraint" medals to our sons and daughters......What are we fighting for?, ...frankly I don't give a damn,...next stop is Vietnam...and it's one two three...blah blah...

I really feel sorry for the brave men and women that are stuck in this vortex of blunder...they are good people which brings me to this question...Given the climate of everything in the US, isn't it easier to send and keep the generally conservative, honorable men and women of our Military out of Obamas hair by keeping them overseas. Am I the only one that thinks such things?   
 
us330
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:02 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
He is very much in favor of specifically sending sons of affluent America rather than the "poor" as he put it

Kind of like how he is very much in favor of everybody in America paying taxes and being honest with the IRS rather than himself?
 
N1120A
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:08 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):

If amnesty is granted to 25,000,000 illegal

25 million now? When did FOX News make this new number up?

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
howz about mandating two years mandatory service in the US Military to prove you want to be an American...Then and only then will you have earned your Flag..

Yeah, because military are somehow "better" Americans than the rest of us   

Quoting avek00 (Reply 5):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.

Compulsory national service (and I agree, it should be necessarily of a military nature) would work wonders for American society.

No thanks. I like freedom.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):

Great idea, would weed out the ones who just want to use this country as an ATM machine.

As opposed to weeding out us as a country who love cheap labor and low food prices?
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Yeah, because military are somehow "better" Americans than the rest of us

Exactly. I'm tired of this myth. Military service in this country is paid, and is a career choice for many people. It's certainly a career choice that many of us would never make, but it's not as though military men and women are serving out of kindness and selflessness.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
As opposed to weeding out us as a country who love cheap labor and low food prices?

Let's not cloud the argument with facts of any kind. Politicians and ordinary citizens can grandstand against illegal immigration all they want, our economy would take a major hit if illegal immigrants were sent home tomorrow. Let's face it, no one's lining up to take the jobs they perform, and I'm fairly certain that no one is prepared to pay $10/pound for oranges at the grocery store.
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
Exactly. I'm tired of this myth. Military service in this country is paid, and is a career choice for many people. It's certainly a career choice that many of us would never make, but it's not as though military men and women are serving out of kindness and selflessness.

Meet a soldier home from Iraq who has lost a leg in service to his country, and who is anxious to finish his rehab so that he can go rejoin his unit which is now in Afghanistan, because he does not want to let his buddies down. Such people are not uncommon in the military. Meet one of them and tell me that they are not selfless. Your attitude is disappointing.
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N1120A
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:33 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Meet a soldier home from Iraq who has lost a leg in service to his country, and who is anxious to finish his rehab so that he can go rejoin his unit which is now in Afghanistan, because he does not want to let his buddies down. Such people are not uncommon in the military. Meet one of them and tell me that they are not selfless. Your attitude is disappointing.

That makes someone brave, but it doesn't make them more of an American.
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soon7x7
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:02 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 12):

Bingo!   

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
25 million now? When did FOX News make this new number up?

Really, who's counting?...does it matter at this point?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Yeah, because military are somehow "better" Americans than the rest of us

Wrong...it would help to clarify the agendas of those that WANT to enter this country. Nothing wrong with earning your keep.
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
That makes someone brave, but it doesn't make them more of an American.

It marks the difference between those who have earned their rights versus those who enjoy them on the backs of others. It's the difference between those people who are charitable in their private lives, and those who give little or nothing but complain about inequities.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
seb146
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 5):
Compulsory national service (and I agree, it should be necessarily of a military nature) would work wonders for American society.

Isn't that socialism? Everyone working toward the greater good?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It marks the difference between those who have earned their rights versus those who enjoy them on the backs of others.

Like...? Are you refering to those who stand in front of Home Depot? Do they vote? Can they hold public office? Last I checked, here in California, they pay sales tax when they purchase things, meaning they do contribute in some way. Granted, they probably don't file an income tax return (not all of them are illegal) but look at some of the CEOs. A few of them are paid very very little income and pay very little if any income tax. If they do their accounting right, they will get back what they paid in capital gains neting them very little in tax in all facits of the game. Yet, they can vote. They can hold office but contribute little financially. What right have they earned? They were born with a sliver spoon in their mouth in the United States. That is the only difference.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's the difference between those people who are charitable in their private lives, and those who give little or nothing but complain about inequities.

Because those that complain might not be able to give because they have no private funds to give?
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:54 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Like...? Are you refering to those who stand in front of Home Depot? Do they vote? Can they hold public office? Last I checked, here in California, they pay sales tax when they purchase things, meaning they do contribute in some way. Granted, they probably don't file an income tax return (not all of them are illegal) but look at some of the CEOs. A few of them are paid very very little income and pay very little if any income tax. If they do their accounting right, they will get back what they paid in capital gains neting them very little in tax in all facits of the game. Yet, they can vote. They can hold office but contribute little financially. What right have they earned? They were born with a sliver spoon in their mouth in the United States. That is the only difference.

Count on you to completely miss the point entirely.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Because those that complain might not be able to give because they have no private funds to give?

A waitress on minimum wage can be more charitable than Bill Gates simply by putting $10 a week into the collection plate at church. Again, you miss the point.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
mham001
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:14 am

Does he have a plan on how to pay for it?
 
avek00
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:29 am

I should have proofread more carefully - I support national service, but not necessarily mandatory military service. I will say there are far too many people in my age range who are a) completely without meaningful direction in their lives, and b) disengaged beyond belief from the goings-on of the society. Neither is healthy for America's short- and long-term survival, much less prosperity.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:43 am

Several of the members posting on this board have no idea what they're talking about. I won't point out specifics, because we don't really need another flame-fest. You know who you are.

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
On the other hand, if we are attacked here at home, I will personally thrust a rifle in my sons hands and tell him...lets get to work...in a heartbeat!


Appalling.
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OA412
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:32 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Meet a soldier home from Iraq who has lost a leg in service to his country, and who is anxious to finish his rehab so that he can go rejoin his unit which is now in Afghanistan, because he does not want to let his buddies down. Such people are not uncommon in the military. Meet one of them and tell me that they are not selfless.

But that's not selflessness. It's bravery and devotion, but selflessness would imply that they are acting without reward, which our troops are not.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Your attitude is disappointing.

Why? I make no apologies for the fact that I will not participate in the deification of the military that has been in vogue for the last decade or so in this country. The men and women serving in the armed forces perform an important role, and do something that many of us are unwilling to do, but they are not better than you or I for having done it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Several of the members posting on this board have no idea what they're talking about. I won't point out specifics, because we don't really need another flame-fest. You know who you are.

Then why bring it up? If you think you know better than several members posting in this thread, why not discuss specifics rather than just dancing around the issue?
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Mudboy
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Yeah, because military are somehow "better" Americans than the rest of us

I think he was trying to say, if they want to be Americans that bad, this is a good way to earn it, just as other FNs that join the US Military do.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):


But if that freedom was threatened, would you pick up a rifle and fight for it, just as many have done to allow you to enjoy that freedom?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
but it's not as though military men and women are serving out of kindness and selflessness.

How would you know that, if you have never served with any of them? Some people feel they owe it to their country to serve. There are many that joined up because of 9/11.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Meet a soldier home from Iraq who has lost a leg in service to his country, and who is anxious to finish his rehab so that he can go rejoin his unit which is now in Afghanistan, because he does not want to let his buddies down. Such people are not uncommon in the military. Meet one of them and tell me that they are not selfless. Your attitude is disappointing.

I have known quite a few of them myself.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
But that's not selflessness. It's bravery and devotion, but selflessness would imply that they are acting without reward, which our troops are not.

Again, what experience do you have to make this call. By the sounds of this, everyone that is compensated for any task, cannot be considered selfless. If you have a family, and you chose to serve a career in the Military, unless you do it for free, you cannot be considered selfless?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
but they are not better than you or I for having done it.

When did anyone claim this??
I will say that there are excellent qualities instilled by the Military, that do make people better, but there is also the dreaded 10%.
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:37 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Thread starter):
Once again the tax evading Charlie Rangel is once again pushing the Draft. He is very much in favor of specifically sending sons of affluent America rather than the "poor" as he put it. Not only is this an insult to our men and women currently in uniform as many come from all walks of life, but this seems to have an underlying agenda rather than being a solution to low recruitment.

The agenda is that it will make the country much more personally invested in the idea of sending our troops abroad because that will mean that everyone's kids are at risk for being sent.
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Yellowstone
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:41 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It marks the difference between those who have earned their rights versus those who enjoy them on the backs of others.

Enough of the shallow Starship Troopers philosophy, okay? No US soldier has fought or died to defend the rights of Americans since at least WW2. And that's only if you think Hitler would have been able to conquer the US eventually - otherwise, you'd have to go back to the Civil War. It's the people here at home who exercise their rights that are those rights' primary defenders.
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Mudboy
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:57 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 27):
Enough of the shallow Starship Troopers philosophy, okay? No US soldier has fought or died to defend the rights of Americans since at least WW2. And that's only if you think Hitler would have been able to conquer the US eventually - otherwise, you'd have to go back to the Civil War. It's the people here at home who exercise their rights that are those rights' primary defenders.

An exactly who is going to stand between you and whatever force does decide to invade our country, if it should ever happen, because obviously you will be hiding in the basement, complaining it is the Military's fault that they let this happen?

Had we not been the Military threat we were during the Cold War, do you seriously think that USSR would be in the shape they are today?
 
Yellowstone
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:40 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 28):
An exactly who is going to stand between you and whatever force does decide to invade our country, if it should ever happen, because obviously you will be hiding in the basement, complaining it is the Military's fault that they let this happen?

You should read what I wrote a bit more carefully. Yes, the presence of a military that can fend off foreign invasion is necessary to the defense of American rights. Our military is much larger than it needs to be to fulfill that mission - the excess does not serve to defend American rights (though it can be used to defend rights of peoples in other countries, which can on occasion be a good thing). And if you look at cases where American troops have seen action, the last time they were defending the United States as a country (rather than her allies, or her economic/political interests) was the Civil War.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 28):
Had we not been the Military threat we were during the Cold War, do you seriously think that USSR would be in the shape they are today?

Again, I made no claim regarding the state of any country other than the US. How the USSR would have turned out is a separate question. If the US had not gone into Korea and Vietnam, but had instead limited itself to a military just strong enough to defend against any Soviet attack on the US, we'd be just as free as we are now. Other peoples might not have been so lucky, though - our soldiers fought and died for their freedoms (with varying degrees of success), not ours.
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Maverick623
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:21 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 27):
And that's only if you think Hitler would have been able to conquer the US eventually
Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 29):
the last time they were defending the United States as a country (rather than her allies, or her economic/political interests) was the Civil War.

Ah, historical revisionism at its best.
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:33 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

Appalling.

What's appalling is what happened after 9/11: we invaded Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.
-Doc Lightning-

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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:27 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
That makes someone brave, but it doesn't make them more of an American.

Well, yeah, actually it does. Or at least it gives those who have sacrificed a FAR deeper and more profound appreciation of liberty and of the sacrifices it takes to maintain it than some citizens.

Stateside military families understand that to a much deeper degree too…it may not make them “more American” than someone else, but when you have the firsthand life experience of literally being in the game of risking your life for country and its ideals, that is absolutely transformational and it’s something that many may have a difficult time comprehending.

I’m not singling you out with this necessarily, so please don’t take offense, just had to elaborate on that line because it moved me to respond.


As far as Rangel is concerned, he needs to go away. Now. Compulsory service is not consistent with a free society—naturally something akin to WWII is totally different when you contemplate a GLOBAL war of that scale (which we hopefully will never see again to that degree). But in terms of and context of today, I am not in favor of a draft or mandatory service.
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:02 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe forced national service (note I did not say military necessarily) would be good for society and our youth.

Here in Germany it has had its good and bad sides for sure. There is mandatory military and civil service for 6 months after you finish Gymnasium (high school). The default is military service, but if you fill out some paperwork listing yourself as a conscientious objector, or have medical issues you can do civil service. However the service time is constantly being reduced partly for budgetary reasons, and partly because many people see little benefit in terms of the costs. Plus, many people do not want to do it at all, and so go to a doctor and get a note saying that something is wrong with them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Meet a soldier home from Iraq who has lost a leg in service to his country, and who is anxious to finish his rehab so that he can go rejoin his unit which is now in Afghanistan, because he does not want to let his buddies down. Such people are not uncommon in the military. Meet one of them and tell me that they are not selfless. Your attitude is disappointing.

I agree that there are people like you describe in the military. But there are just as many in the military who would not make that choice. And the military is certainly not the only career with selfless people in it. Take a teacher, especially during the recession who spends his own money buying teaching supplies because the school budget has been cut back, or spends hours each week, unpaid, helping students to understand material after school that they could not get during normal class time. Both acts are selfless, but in different ways.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 25):
But if that freedom was threatened, would you pick up a rifle and fight for it, just as many have done to allow you to enjoy that freedom?

Just because you feel threatened is not reason enough to reach for a gun. There are so many soft power methods that can be used to stop a threat. Unfortunately, with the military industrial complex the way it is, these ways are often overlooked. Education is a key area. I would suggest reading "Three Cups of Tea" about Greg Mortenson, who is building schools in rural villages in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Interestingly, although the Taliban has destroyed hundreds of schools in Pakistan and Afgahnistan, not one of the 131 schools built by Mortenson has been destroyed, because the villagers will not allow it. They helped build the schools, and try as the Taliban might, the village sees themselves as owners of the schools. Less extremism for less money. It is a win-win.

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
Well, yeah, actually it does. Or at least it gives those who have sacrificed a FAR deeper and more profound appreciation of liberty and of the sacrifices it takes to maintain it than some citizens.

You can't be "more" American than someone else. Either you hold the passport or you don't. There is no degree of being an American just like there is no degree of being German, South African or Australian.

Logical conclusions aside, how do soldiers know more about liberty than anyone else? Sure, they have gone to war, maybe have even looked straight into the whites of the "enemy" eyes. But saying that gives someone a deeper appreciation of liberty is a bit of a stretch. Unless they are pretty high up the ladder, 98% are following orders. When they are told to shoot, they shoot. When they are told to retreat, they retreat. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


I am sorry if it sounds a bit harsh. But it really gets to me when people hold up the military on a pedestal. The military has its place, and normally does a fine job. But it is just that, a job. At the end of the day they made a choice to join. No one forced them to. It is one of the trade-offs between a volunteer military and a draft. With a volunteer military you get soldiers that are willing to go to the ends of the earth for the service, but you also are left with the people at home being almost completely detached. You would not know that a war is going on if it weren't for the budget bills and casualty reports. If you want more attention and sacrifice, shift back to a draft. But then realise that you will have people that are not fit to be soldiers, or have no interest fighting alongside those that would as Dreadnought so eloquently put it would lose a leg and try to rejoin their platoon as soon as possible.

The way I see it, you end of with one of two scenarios at the end of the day:

Something that results in a Woodstock type culture, or something that results in complete ignorance as to what is going on. Neither one can really function for long. It can only hope to function.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
soon7x7
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:49 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

Problem with 9/11 is we were not attacked by an advisorial government/country... unlike Pearl Harbor, we knew what we had to do and where to do it. This new enemy has roots right here in the US and I firmly believe our soldiers being abroad chasing caves, cowards and holes in the ground is a fruitless venture. We have a lot of work to do regarding the status of security here in the US and believe our work is now going to measured and effective back here in the states. It's my belief that America is the weakest it has been in 70 years and is in an extremely vulnerable position...With Nuke threats on the rise globally, the current administrations willingness to rub elbows with countries that were and perhaps still are our advisaries...someone in Washington better put on some smart glasses and look into the future and appreciate the big picture which to me looks pretty poor. After hearing the anti-white intense rhetoric from samir shabazz yesterday...this country is more divided now than I can remember. I can only imagine what is now going on behind closed doors in our country on both sides. So I beleive we soon for one reason or another, we will be bearing arms in our country soon. Hard to believe?...Mavericks photo above would have been hard to believe on 9/10...
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:53 pm

What Think You?

What think me?

I have got only one thing to say:

Stop the war.

 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
soon7x7
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:02 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
Compulsory service is not consistent with a free society—naturally something akin to WWII is totally different when you contemplate a GLOBAL war of that scale (which we hopefully will never see again to that degree). But in terms of and context of today, I am not in favor of a draft or mandatory service.

Do you think that we are not on the threshold of something like this now?...IMO, the globe is as unstable as nuclear fission on too many levels. Energy, religious ideology, politics, corruption, bottomed out economy. I hate to be the harbinger of such wonderful realities but it is scary out there!   
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
What's appalling is what happened after 9/11: we invaded Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

Somewhat agreed, in that we went into Iraq at the wrong time for the wrong reasons, basically alone.

However, my comment was directed at soon's obviously false statement that if we were attacked in America his son would be fighting in a heartbeat.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 34):
Problem with 9/11 is we were not attacked by an advisorial government/country

Oh ok. So as long as the attack is committed by an entire country we can demonize instead of just a bunch of "stateless" actors, then you can send your son in. Because there's such a huge difference there.  

BTW, the perpetrators were actively supported by the ruling clan in Afghanistan, and passively by Pakistan, hence why we're in Afghanistan and Pakistan is playing nice for now. Members were mostly Saudi and Egyptian.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
dxing
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:01 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
25 million now? When did FOX News make this new number up?

More like CNN or MSNBC.   

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
No thanks. I like freedom.

No one should have a problem with giving 2-4 years of their life in service to their country.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Isn't that socialism?

No, because after you have done your service you can go on to do whatever it is you wish to do with your life without the government dictating to you.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 29):
And if you look at cases where American troops have seen action, the last time they were defending the United States as a country (rather than her allies, or her economic/political interests) was the Civil War.

If that is your standard then the last time we as a nation fought to defend the country was actually the war of 1812 when Britian invaded us. The civil war would fall into your economic and political interests bucket.

Here's a suggestion. You get your choice. 2 years in the military with an overseas tour possibly in some war torn country, 3 years in the peace corp overseas teaching/helping a nation to raise itself up, or 4 years stateside in the Americorps where you can be put to work on all these shovel ready WPA projects the lefties on this site keep saying need doing yet have been basically ignored by the current administration in the stimulus package.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:03 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Appalling.

And the people that did that... are they in Iraq?
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:07 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
And the people that did that... are they in Iraq?

And the people who attacked Pearl Harbor... were they in Germany?

Silly question.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
slider
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:22 am

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 33):
But saying that gives someone a deeper appreciation of liberty is a bit of a stretch. Unless

Have you ever watched Jay Leno's recurring bit he has called "Jaywalking?"

He goes on the street and talks to various idiotic mouthbreathers who are poster children for putting sarin gas in subways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkQ6XgXeNuY

I stand by my previous comments. When you immerse yourself in the defense of freedom, there is certainly more skin in the game. You're right that on the surface no one is "more" American than others...a passport is a passport is a passport. The reality beyond the mere title or birthright though is deeper than that.

The morons in that video may be Americans, just like an American soldier, but that may be where any similarity ends besides walking upright.
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:43 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 41):
Have you ever watched Jay Leno's recurring bit he has called "Jaywalking?"

Even Jay screwed it up. We didn't "get" our independence in 1776, but in 1783 with the Treaty of Ghent. We did however declare independence on July [i]2/i], 1776.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):

And the people that did that... are they in Iraq?

I'd laugh if this wasn't such a serious issue. Did you happen to forget that we're also in Afghanistan? Because that's what I'm referring to. If soon was being serious instead of just blowing smoke, his son would be over there right now.

Also, since you didn't bother reading it, I'll post it again:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
we went into Iraq at the wrong time for the wrong reasons
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:49 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 42):
, but in 1783 with the Treaty of Ghent

I believe you're thinking of the Treaty of Paris.

The Treaty of Ghent ended the War of 1812 (in 1814).

But "get" vs "declare" in this context is a pointless semantic debate.

[Edited 2010-07-08 20:59:11]
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
BMI727
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:05 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
we went into Iraq at the wrong time

We should have sealed the deal back in 1991.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 43):
.so would you recommend the US fight terrorism by just conquering the globe?

Let's just forget nation building and just go kill terrorists.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
soon7x7
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:08 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
Let's just forget nation building and just go kill terrorists.

Sounds like a plan..first lets give back our soldiers their rounds!
 
D L X
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:25 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
And the people that did that... are they in Iraq?

And the people who attacked Pearl Harbor... were they in Germany?

Umm... I'm pretty sure they were an alliance... Yeah, pretty sure.  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Silly question.

Silly answer.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 42):
Did you happen to forget that we're also in Afghanistan?

No, I didn't.

My personal thoughts are that we should have been there in 2001 (as we were) and a draft would have had little political effect then.

But now it's 2010, and we've screwed up the war completely, with imo no good reason to remain there. A draft would bring it to an end quickly.

I'm actually quite torn on whether we should have a draft or not. I personally have argued to my West Point grad superiors that we should not have a draft because if we can't make an argument compelling enough to get people to volunteer, we shouldn't be in the war.

It hurts my soul that we're forcing people to stay in the military in order to fight in Afghanistan.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:08 am

Ugh this draft talk again. It really isn't my place to talk policy, but I will tell you, when I was in basic training, there was this one kid that did not want to be there, and just that one kid made our lives very, VERY miserable. I cannot imagine what many unhappy, apathetic draftees would do to the ranks in theater (not saying all draftees would be trouble, but it wouldn't take that many.) What our military has been doing and I hope continues to do is to continue on focusing on quality troops, not quantity.

I do see Rangel's argument is on representation, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. From what I've seen the military has been a (good) life changer for many poor people. It gave my dad the opportunity to come from nothing and fulfilling his dream of being an airline pilot.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:22 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 46):
Umm... I'm pretty sure they were an alliance... Yeah, pretty sure.

Not only that, but here's how the series of events went...
December 7 - Japan attacks US.
December 8 - US declares war on Japan
December 11 - Germany and Italy declare war on US.
Later that day - US declares war on Germany and Italy.

Note the order of those last two events - Germany declared war on us first. Really frakkin' stupid move on their part.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
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RE: US Draft, Charlie Rangel...What Think You?

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:23 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Ugh this draft talk again. It really isn't my place to talk policy, but I will tell you, when I was in basic training, there was this one kid that did not want to be there, and just that one kid made our lives very, VERY miserable. I cannot imagine what many unhappy, apathetic draftees would do to the ranks in theater (not saying all draftees would be trouble, but it wouldn't take that many.) What our military has been doing and I hope continues to do is to continue on focusing on quality troops, not quantity.

I do see Rangel's argument is on representation, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. From what I've seen the military has been a (good) life changer for many poor people. It gave my dad the opportunity to come from nothing and fulfilling his dream of being an airline pilot.

Solid post....really good points.

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