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Dreadnought
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San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:54 am

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=85467&catid=2

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- San Francisco officials are considering whether to ban the sale of pets, except fish, throughout the city.

Supporters of the ban say animal shelters are overrun by people who buy hamsters, parrots, snakes and other animals from pet stores on impulse, then regret the purchase. Under the proposal, San Francisco residents would have to go outside the city to purchase pets.

I think this is overstepping, but I can see the reasoning. It makes me sick to see the dogs, cats and other animals being sold in pet stores in this country, being bought and sold like a can of beans. Buyers get tired of the animal and abandon it. By chance I found out that the supplier for one major pet store chain is a real animal factory, with less than humane conditions and treatment.

That said, my wife runs a cattery. She raises and sells Maine Coons. I think that's different because the buyers who buy from a breeder pay a lot of money (between $800 to over $2000 for a show-quality cat), and are unlikely to just dump it. My wife maintains contact with her customers and offers to help find another home for the animal if they would ever no longer want it (so far nobody has ever taken her up on that).

By the way, our estimates are that the average cost of raising each kitten is around $825 per kitten, taking into account all the vet bills, high quality food etc.

In many other countries, live animal pet store sales are banned. If you want a pet, you either go to the local animal shelter or you go to a breeder. I think that makes sense, because the two choices are either to spend a lot of money, thus improving the probability that you are serious about a long term commitment, or going to the shelter, and you see all the poor animals there and what happens if you abandon the animal later.

So I think they should ban pet store sales, but not breeder sales.
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NIKV69
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:48 am

Sugary drinks too, once again the left trying to live people's lives for them. It's getting a little too much now.
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Aeroflot777
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
o I think they should ban pet store sales, but not breeder sales.

Never thought about that... but I like it!

The amount of abandoned animals here in SF is truly tragic.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
. It makes me sick to see the dogs, cats and other animals being sold in pet stores in this country, being bought and sold like a can of beans.

I don't agree with a ban in principle but the sale of pets per se is not something I have a problem restricting given that they are indeed sentient beings with feelings that need to receive proper care. It's necessary and proper that licensure be required for having large mammalian pets like dogs and cats, and I would agree with a policy whereby only breeders and shelters were a proper source for obtaining these animals.
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OA412
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:23 am

I don't know if all pet sales should be banned, but I definitely see where they are coming from. I definitely believe that shelters should still be available to the public in order to facilitate pet adoptions given the number of animals euthanized each year.

The problem with pet stores is that a lot of the animals that are sold there come from "puppy mills" that treat the animals very inhumanely. Also, a lot of the animals sold at pet stores are bought by parents trying to make their kids happy. In a few weeks, the kids are bored of the new animal, and to the shelter it goes. This is especially true after an animal related film is released. After 101 Dalmations was released, sales of Dalmatians sky-rocketed. After Finding Nemo, sales of clown fish went through the roof. Unfortunately many of these animals were abandoned.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
That said, my wife runs a cattery. She raises and sells Maine Coons. I think that's different because the buyers who buy from a breeder pay a lot of money (between $800 to over $2000 for a show-quality cat), and are unlikely to just dump it. My wife maintains contact with her customers and offers to help find another home for the animal if they would ever no longer want it (so far nobody has ever taken her up on that).

Well as you say, this is different. I'm sure that your wife raises these animals humanely and that you treat them well until they are sold. Plus, since, as you mention, people are forking over quite a bit of money to purchase the cats, it's far less likely to be an "impulse" purchase. Well-run and reputable breeding businesses are fine and shouldn't be banned from selling.
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Springbok747
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:29 am

Bans don't work. Ever. People will simply buy a pet outside SF, then get tired of them and abandon them, then what..? Stupid idea. A better idea is to educate the kids, make them aware that pets cannot be simply abandoned because "they got bored with it".
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Kunoichi
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So I think they should ban pet store sales, but not breeder sales.

This is how it works for dogs and cats in Denmark (as well as many exotic pets).  
They're illegal to sell in pet stores - only smaller pets are sold in these (birds, fish, rodents, sometimes certain reptiles and ferrets and such), while dogs and cats can only be sold by kennels, breeders or among regular citizens. Puppy mills are against the law too, and places with many animals are checked pretty well.

It works. We still have our own fair share of shelter-animals, but compared to a lot of other countries, we're big on animal welfare, and though it could definitely BE better, it keeps improving.
Also, I can't imagine much worse non-abuse/neglect environments to keep puppies and kittens than a pet store - ESPECIALLY in a mall. It has just always seemed wrong to me.
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Rj111
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:58 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Sugary drinks too, once again the left trying to live people's lives for them. It's getting a little too much now.

Bad analogy.

Sugary drinks = bad for your health. Your health is your prerogative so you can abuse it if you must.

Buying pets on a whim and abandoning them = very bad and unfair on the pet. Pets should not be abused.
 
bohica
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:19 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 5):
People will simply buy a pet outside SF

And they don't have to drive too far to get to Daly City to buy a pet.
 
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:59 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 8):
And they don't have to drive too far to get to Daly City to buy a pet.

That is were we go buy our guns & ammo, as well as chicken adobo.  
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 7):
Buying pets on a whim and abandoning them = very bad and unfair on the pet. Pets should not be abused.

  

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 2):
The amount of abandoned animals here in SF is truly tragic.

I agree. What's even worse is that our animal protection division does nothing to help. My old neighbors owns a huge purebred Harlequin Great Dane. It looks to be about 150 pounds. They neglect the dog. They leave it alone in a small concrete backyard for up to a week at times all by it's self. The dog has a very loud bark and it drives the neighborhood crazy. Those dogs require a lot of attention and they give it none. They never take the dog for walks or anything. This has been going on for 5 years now.
I've complained to them many times but they don't understand English. Instead he offered me a gift certificate to his restaurant. They are new money from China.
I called animal control out and they were supposed to cite the owner. Instead the officer took a bribe from the dog owner. They own a restaurant and the owner gave the animal control officer a gift certificate to his restaurant. (I overhear the conversation) There was no change, the dog still barks frantically. When I called to report the bribe, the department refused to believe me and said he was one of their best officers. Truth is that he was probably a relative of the operator I spoke with.
Nepotism is rife at S.F. City Hall and is in every branch of the local government. There is no way they are going to fry one of their own for taking a bribe.

I am scared of what that dog can do. He already weights more than the owner's wife. The owner is in his early 60s and recovered from a heart attack last year. He is too weak to handle that dog. It's going to bite and possibly kill someone if it ever get's loose.

Far too many people buy large and exotic pets to woo and impress their friends. The pets and the neighbors end up suffering.
Not sure how I feel about the ban because San Francisco City Hall is full of nepotism and is only looking for more ways to draw in revenue. Perhaps if their animal control department did it's job and didn't take bribes, there would be no need for such a law.

[Edited 2010-07-14 21:26:44]

[Edited 2010-07-14 21:28:53]
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DocLightning
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:14 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 5):

Bans don't work. Ever. People will simply buy a pet outside SF, then get tired of them and abandon them, then what..? Stupid idea. A better idea is to educate the kids, make them aware that pets cannot be simply abandoned because "they got bored with it".

To some degree, you're right. If Petsmart in Daly City were selling puppies (they don't), people would just go there. It's 30 minutes (maybe 45) tops from any any point in SF. From my house, it's 8 minutes on I-280.

I think the ban is a good idea, but then it needs to be statewide. Banning it in SF is going to do nobody, and no dog any good.

And I'm proud to say that my dog, Paco, comes from the shelter. PLEASE don't buy a dog from a breeder. There are ton of dogs. So many are put down every day. Go to the pound. You don't need a purebred. You need a loving, friendly, happy, best friend in the world. And you won't have to pay an arm and a leg for him, either.
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Superfly
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
my dog, Paco

I met Paco. He's a cool dog!  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
PLEASE don't buy a dog from a breeder. There are ton of dogs. So many are put down every day. Go to the pound.

I have to disagree. So many dogs at the pound have the Pit Bull gene.
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Kunoichi
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
I have to disagree. So many dogs at the pound have the Pit Bull gene.

Genes have a role, but Pit Bulls aren't necessarily mean. Dogs are rarely screwed up on their own - the problem has two legs, not four.

But not everyone is cut out for shelter dogs either. A lot of them come with baggage. And sometimes, owning a purebred can be a fun way to live out a hobby (ie. showing them, breeding them, etc.).
I've been a foster carer, and I now own a pedigree dalmatian and a pedigree chihuahua. I breed and show both, and I don't feel guilty about it - none of my puppies have ended up in a shelter (or even with other owners than their first!) so far. Responsible breeders and responsible breeding would go much, much further than just telling people not to buy purebreds and only go to the shelter.
(there's a reason they don't often end up in a shelter - people know what to expect when they look for a specific breed and a certain level of knowledge and understanding is also expected by the breeder before they go along with selling a pup. I don't sell puppies to everyone, especially not impulse buyers.)
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UPS707
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:24 pm

Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 12):
Genes have a role, but Pit Bulls aren't necessarily mean. Dogs are rarely screwed up on their own - the problem has two legs, not four.

Very true... I currently have a Boxer/Pit mix that we are fostering that we pulled from the shelter at her 11th hour. She is the sweetest dog I have ever had, and I have to admit, before her, I would have probably jumped on that anti-pit band wagon. Our suspicion is that this dog came from a good home who ended up with financial issues and she was an un-necessary cost. Very sweet, crate trained, house-broken, and knows quite a few of the standard commands, so she definitely doesn't appear neglected.

The option alot of people forget about when looking for a dog is breed-specific rescues. For those people that have to have an "X", there is probably an "X" rescue out there. That won't work for folks looking for a show dog, but both of my Border Collies came from NorCal BC Rescue.

Going back to the initial topic, I do think SF is going in the right direction (but probably a little too far if they are looking to stop all sales), but they need support on a wider basis. Backyard Breeding is probably the biggest issue here from a shelter overpopulation perspective. People will breed a couple dogs to make a quick buck and then the people who are buying the dogs aren't out as much cash as they would be from a true breeder, so it is a little easier to give the dog away if they have to. I think the answer here is a combination of the following:

1) Ban Pet store sales (mainly for the cruelty beyond the way the bulk of those dogs are raised)
2) Better control of "Breeders". I know the Govt seems to get involved in anything down the street, but we need something to differentiate Dreadnought's wife from Superfly's neighbor when he realizes he could make some extra money by mating his with his buddy's dog.
3) Find a better way to match folks with potential shelter dogs. In Greater Sacramento alone, there are at least 4 separate shelters and no communication between them regarding "inventory". So if you are looking for something specific, you either have to visit/call all 4+, or just decide to go another route looking for that breed which might be easier. If there was a way to centralize that (and the wider scope the better), then there is a better chance of matching people with the animal they are looking for if they want a specific breed/size etc. increasing the chances of getting a needy animal out of the shelter.

[Edited 2010-07-15 08:17:47]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:03 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):

I have to disagree. So many dogs at the pound have the Pit Bull gene.

gotta pick your dog right. You keep going back to the pound until you find the right dog. And did you know that the third most common biter in the U.S. is...

...The Labrador Retriever?
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Superfly
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:34 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
You keep going back to the pound until you find the right dog.

Or just buy one from a breeder and save yourself time.
Nothing wrong with wanting a purebred Collie, Cocker Spaniel, Siberian husky, etc.

Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 12):
Genes have a role, but Pit Bulls aren't necessarily mean. Dogs are rarely screwed up on their own - the problem has two legs, not four.

I agree that a vast majority of pit bulls are screwed up because of humans. Mainly street thugs and trailer trash like these breeds as an extension of their roughness.
Personally, I don't like those beady eyes they have and they look menacing. .
I like furry playful dogs, not the short-haird dog that looks like it can rip your leg off.
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ltbewr
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:35 am

Just like trying to ban gun sales, a ban on the sales of pets won't happen in real life. Perhaps limits on the number of stores, stricter licensing, higher business fees, requirement for spay/neuter for most non-breeding pets should be considered in SF. Further, certain exotic pets should be only owned by trained and licensed persons.

In some places, you can't buy a pet in a shopping mall, where often 'mill' pets ended up being bought by impulse buyers. Many mall operators didn't want the hassles of such businesses or protests by animal rights groups so would not renew the leases for such businesses or raised the rents so much to make them unprofitable.

Many pet stores in my home state of New Jersey are gone out of business due to various laws, increasing costs and hassles of such businesses, economic ups and downs as well as many more and cheaper private sales. Many localities and states limit the sale of 'mill' cats and dogs because of the huge abuse in their creation, the poor psychlogical and physical damage such animals have undergone that causes many to die too early or be abandoned in public or to shelters.

The current economic situation has caused a massive glut of unwanted but good pet animals. Many lose their incomes and either Fido and his costs goes or the kids don't eat tonight. Many have to move to rental housing where landlords do not accept pets, especially dogs. Some older people with pets die or end up in extensive hospitalization. Shelters are overwhelmed and underfunded, some will not kill any donated animal no matter their age or health, further compounding their situation. If you want a pet, get one from a shelter, make a suitable donation to them when you get a pet at them, be prepared to take care of it, and hopefully you will gain humanity too.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:06 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):

Or just buy one from a breeder and save yourself time.
Nothing wrong with wanting a purebred Collie, Cocker Spaniel, Siberian husky, etc.

Except for the genetic diseases. Did you know that the current breed standard for the German Shepherd can barely walk? This dog won Best in Show.

But there's a ton of purebreads at the pound.
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Superfly
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RE: San Francisco: Ban Sale Of Pets?

Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Did you know that the current breed standard for the German Shepherd can barely walk?

Didn't know that.
Why is it the dog of choice for police?
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