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DeltaMD90
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Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:05 pm

I've been reading around in other forums, and it really got me thinking... and I wonder how my fellow a.netters think. Just like the Earth going around the Sun making such a big controversy, nowadays evolution and the big bang are hot topics amongst Christians (and maybe other relgions.) Why is that? I can see how if you are raised to think something for decades and someone says you are wrong, you will be upset and all, but for someone young like me who has seen both sides of the argument, I don't see how evolution and the big bang are incompatible with God. Couldn't God of made the universe in one "big bang" and made the animals through evolution?
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Aesma
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:16 pm

It's not a problem for the Catholic Church (as strange as it may seem). It's big in North America, basically (and where the US have an influence). Also, some Muslims are being inspired by this trend (Intelligent Design and all that nonsense).
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avent
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:54 pm

Is God so inept He couldn't design evolution? It seems to me you're the one that's anti-religious  
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:02 am

Isn't it quite simple and obvious? The theory of evolution is quite contradictory no most religion's view of the forming of life on earth, (usually some sort of children's style, Santa Claus like fairytale)

Once a society accepts evolution, it basically rejects the founding principal of most religious thought.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:08 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

It probably boils down to the fact that it contradicts what is written in religious texts. And there are many religions that require their followers to take their sacred religious texts verbatim as they are "the word of God". And since God is perfect His word can not be contradicted.

Tugg
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:08 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Maybe because science has no room for nonsense such as life appearing *POOF* like magic out of nowhere?  
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:27 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
Maybe because science has no room for nonsense such as life appearing *POOF* like magic out of nowhere?

Actually science does allow for that as science does not yet know how things went from "unliving" to living matter. And to extend that, science hasn't yet figured out when consciousness occurs in living beings, what the switch is that makes something aware of itself as an independent and unique being.

Tugg
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RottenRay
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:35 am

In order for a person of (whatever) faith to accept the theory of evolution, that person must also accept certain parts of (whatever) faith as embellished, stylized story told for a motive.

To say that those who follow the theory of evolution are anti-religious is perhaps a bit premature, because not all of the history of the universe is known to us at this point.

Some "evolutionists" are anti-religious, others are not.

But when ideals collide, the evolutionists have tangible proof while the creationists do not, and the fur then flies.

Unfortunately, this flying fur usually belongs to zealots of both camps, and no real product is manufactured other than noise.




Quoting avent (Reply 2):
Is God so inept He couldn't design evolution? It seems to me you're the one that's anti-religious

Avent, Delta didn't say that - re-read his post and you'll see he asks the same question.



The thing I find distressing is how this battle is being waged in certain areas, especially in public school systems. This function of our society should be completely agenda-free, and all known knowledge should be made available to students, but increasingly this is not the case.

Evolutionists control a school board, and anything containing a reference to religion is wiped from the curriculum. Creationists control a school board, and anything containing a reference to evolution is wiped from the curriculum.

Utter hogwash - public schools should teach it all, with a caveat if needed, but give the kids the knowledge. Catering to one faction or the other simply results in a poorer level of education.

I was very lucky 30+ years ago, as my high school had a decent science curricula as well as a wide selection of non-denominational religion-oriented courses. Our library contained everything from King James v. to Origin of Species.




Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Couldn't God of made the universe

One final thing, young Delta. Watch this sort of bad grammar. You should have written "COULD god HAVE made..."

I'm not harping or trying to sling mud, simply making an observation. Based on reading a few of your posts, you write well and seem to be reasonably balanced. Improve upon this by paying closer attention to grammar.

You might consider writing in a word processor program and running the grammar-check, and then pasting the result in here.



RR
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:40 am

Quoting avent (Reply 2):
Is God so inept He couldn't design evolution? It seems to me you're the one that's anti-religious

That's what I'm saying

Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 3):
The theory of evolution is quite contradictory no most religion's view of the forming of life on earth

You know, how so? I can see God making evolution

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
*POOF* like magic out of nowhere?

I haven't read the exact verbage of the Bible recently, but I don't think it actually says "out of no where," but may be implied

Quoting rottenray (Reply 7):
society should be completely agenda-free

     

Quoting rottenray (Reply 7):

One final thing, young Delta. Watch this sort of bad grammar. You should have written "COULD god HAVE made..."

Ha, if you only knew, I actually am a grammar Nazi (sorry if that analogy offends anyone.) I often write how I speak, and sometimes I change what I'm about to say/write after I've said part of the sentence so it comes out weird. Plus, I was on the phone when I wrote the post  
Point taken though, I often post stupid errors that confuse readers and throw my point out the window
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:51 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):

Actually science does allow for that as science does not yet know how things went from "unliving" to living matter.

Well put that way, then yes. However, abiogenesis (the spontaneous generation theory) has not been able to be physically proven, as much as the hypothesis make sense.

On the other hand, evolution has been proven. A multitude of times. Entirely new species of maggots have been created in labs in less than a decade. Many strains of formerly somewhat harmless diseases are now becoming immune to antibiotics. The evidence is there. Evolution is happening right in front of our eyes. Yet many still dismiss it   

Science has no way of explaining how Adam and Eve popped out of nowhere, and then somehow the whole human species was magically spared from genetic aberrations from inbreeding, necessary to populate the rest of the world at the time, which would have had to occur within Adam's and Eve's offspring, Makes sense   

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
I haven't read the exact verbage of the Bible recently, but I don't think it actually says "out of no where," but may be implied

Over the course of 7 days, earth is created. Then the next chapter jumps to Adam and Eve and a talking snake. Yeah I'd say that's pretty much pulled out of somebody's ass.

Please refer to this link, its a nice summary of the bible (NSFW) Big grinhttp://i.imgur.com/dqocd.png

[Edited 2010-07-22 17:58:04]
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:56 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
You know, how so? I can see God making evolution

That's not the point. The point is, God initiating evolution is not the basis on which the creation of life is founded in religious tecahing. Evolution contradicts the accepted theory of religion, (Adam and Eve, all those other fairytales, etc). Therefore , in answering the thread starter's question, that is why the two theories are at odds with each other.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:15 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
You know, how so? I can see God making evolution

Setting up, perhaps - evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. But the process of evolution - the development from the first life form to the multitude of living species today - leaves no room for God. For a religious person, who tends to think that humans are cosmically special, the idea that we're the end product of 4 billion years of accidents and random development without divine influence is unacceptable.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 7):
This function of our society should be completely agenda-free, and all known knowledge should be made available to students, but increasingly this is not the case.

Evolutionists control a school board, and anything containing a reference to religion is wiped from the curriculum. Creationists control a school board, and anything containing a reference to evolution is wiped from the curriculum.

Point of clarification - do you have a problem with removing references to religion from the science curriculum? Because religion isn't science. Science classes should not mention creationism or ID, for the same reason they shouldn't mention astrology or psychic powers - they're not science. Keeping non-science out of the science class is hardly an agenda.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
nowadays evolution and the big bang are hot topics amongst Christians (and maybe other relgions.)

It's not.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:23 am

Easy. If proven it shows that the Bible is not to be taken literally. That of course is a precursor of questioning other things. Some religious institutions would rather not give the chance to its followers to question.

Therefore, creationism must be protected!
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:00 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
I often write how I speak,

Most people can't do this, and therefore most people have a hard time understanding things written so. In a forum environment, you'll end up spending a lot of unproductive time trying to re-explain yourself.

Don't answer this, just think about it. Do you do any creative writing?

Years ago, I was a grammar Nazi as well. I've given up, except when I see the chance to nudge someone who has some potential. The rest? Meh. Let 'em write txtspk and look like idiots.




Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
Science has no way of explaining how Adam and Eve popped out of nowhere, and then somehow the whole human species was magically spared from genetic aberrations from inbreeding, necessary to populate the rest of the world at the time, which would have had to occur within Adam's and Eve's offspring

Science doesn't really need to explain this, if the bible (any version) is kept in context and appreciated for what it is: A work of man, an interpretation. Stone tablets, burning bush, et cetera.

This holds true for all religious tomes.

The problems arise when either side becomes too self-righteous. There is much value in the bible, and there is much value in science, but these values are lost when strident arguments break out.




Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 10):
The point is, God initiating evolution is not the basis on which the creation of life is founded in religious tecahing.

  

This is because religion predates known scientific method. Religion is ancient, arcane, and in my opinion, is an attempt to explain the natural universe by those lacking the technology or understanding required to do so accurately.

Religion is also interesting from another perspective, in that nearly all gods (and certainly those recognized by mainstream religions) happen to be males based loosely on the powerful, demanding, potent tribal leader figure.

"Do this, don't do that, and don't ask questions - I'll tell you what to do and how to feel about it."

In the grand scheme of biology, males are more aggressive in most species. Not all, most. Don't y'all go replying with "refudiations" to this statement. (Thanks, Sarah!)

So, does god imitate life, or does life imitate god?



Eventually - if we survive as a species - we will learn the answer.



RR
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting rottenray (Reply 14):

The problems arise when either side becomes too self-righteous.

Case in point, the thread title. I think it's pretty safe to say religion is much more anti-evolution than vice versa.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
Case in point, the thread title. I think it's pretty safe to say religion is much more anti-evolution than vice versa.

I'll agree, with the caveat that I'm not accusing Delta of trying to    .

It's the nature of the beast.

Religion is uplifting, glorious, full of epiphanies of one sort or another. And singing.

Science is mostly boring and low-key. Things grow in dishes, or they don't, and in either case it takes hours and a microscope to tell.



RR
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:51 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
Quoting rottenray (Reply 14):

The problems arise when either side becomes too self-righteous.

Case in point, the thread title. I think it's pretty safe to say religion is much more anti-evolution than vice versa.

I'm glad the mysteries of faith have finally been debunked--by an cocky, unemployed, low-time pilot, nonetheless. Congratulations.



There's lots of hubristic holier-than-thou BS being spread on this thread, as others. What modern Christian denies evolution or theories like the Big Bang? Really? It's a straw man argument. "Christians believe in denying evidence of no 'divine intervention' right under their noses! See! They think the world was created in seven days! They're idiots!"

Total straw man. There really aren't any mainstream "evolution deniers." Where are they? Show me some mainstream preachers teaching against evolution. It's a convenient ploy to discredit the Christians.

Religion and science can coexist peaceably--and do.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:11 am

It's anti-religion because it's an "us vs them" sort of thing.

"We" are Christians. "We" are believers. "They" are unholy heathens. Evolution is just one of many divisive wedges that extremist religious leaders like to use.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
I haven't read the exact verbage of the Bible recently, but I don't think it actually says "out of no where," but may be implied
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
Maybe because science has no room for nonsense such as life appearing *POOF* like magic out of nowhere?

Would love to see that written in one of those 500 dollar college texts.... "and then 'POOF', life!"

Quoting rottenray (Reply 14):
This is because religion predates known scientific method. Religion is ancient, arcane, and in my opinion, is an attempt to explain the natural universe by those lacking the technology or understanding required to do so accurately.

I share your opinion as well. I go as far as to think that some stories involving Jesus are similiar to what an ancient Penn and Teller would be. Slight of hand and illusions.... blasphemous I'm sure, but it is another way of explaining the stories in the bible.

Ultimately I think religion (or lack of religion) is irrelevant if a person lives their life with good, sound morals and values.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:08 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
What modern Christian denies evolution or theories like the Big Bang?

I almost have more respect for Christians who do deny evolution. Modifying your religious texts to suit your interpretation is pretty pathetic. If you claim to be Christian either believe it all or do not bother. What is the point in following a religion if you are going to change the bits you do not like or which don't add up?
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:13 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Evolution is not anti anything. It doesn't have an opinion. That's like asking why your pencil hates coffeemakers. Evolution and intelligent design/creationism are not equal theories, as one is based on scientific method and one is based on faith.

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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:54 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
Total straw man. There really aren't any mainstream "evolution deniers." Where are they? Show me some mainstream preachers teaching against evolution. It's a convenient ploy to discredit the Christians.

Mainstream or not, they sure make a lot of noise across the pond ! If they're not Christians, maybe "mainstream Christians" should say so more vehemently ? A little like some here ask "mainstream Muslims" to spend their time denouncing extremists.
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:03 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Why is that?

Inherently, it's not anti-religious--just like any other scientific theory.
The issue is how literally you take the bible. If you sincerely believe that the world was created in seven days (as in the 24 hour days), then yes, I can understand how a process that takes more than a week to occur (aka evolution) would contradict your mindset.
Now, if you don't take the bible stories verbatim, then there is no reason why you can't be religious and also acknowledge and recognize evolution's validity as a scientific theory that is on the same level as the theory of gravity (the best response to someone who claims that evolution is "only" a theory is that gravity is "only" a theory as well, so why don't you walk off a ten story building and test it out?).

Of course, people who also take the bible literally and see it as the word of god fail to remember that when the bible was written, it wasn't originally written in modern english. The bible that we know today has gone through several translations--and the "original" document has yet to be found. Anybody who has studied foreign languages (or even fooled around on Babelfish) realizes that translations are never exact and that you always lose something in the translation process.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Couldn't God of made the universe in one "big bang" and made the animals through evolution?

Of course. Again, these concepts aren't inherently anti-religious, and I've read plenty of stories of research scientists who are also devoutly religious and see no contradiction between their work and their religious beliefs.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:36 pm

To begin with, I am an atheist and accept evolution as a fact.

But has everyone beside me ever noticed that the Genesis and evolution basically tell the same thing? Just leave out the words "God created" and substitute "days" by a couple of billions of years and you're there:

Quoting Genesis:
1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

The beginning of the cycle of life according to science was the formation of the sun and the planets out of interstellar matter and the sun getting enough energy through gravitational contraction to ignite the fusion process in the center. So there was light.

Quoting Genesis:
9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

First, the Earth was a ball of hot magma which slowly solidified and H2O vapors started to condense in the early atmosphere. Clouds were formed and rain fell for the first times. So seas were formed.

Quoting Genesis:
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Plants were the first multicellular lifeforms found in fossile form on Earth, predating complex animals.

Quoting Genesis:
20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Again - at least partly - right. The first complex animals appeared in the water. Not so right with the birds, though. Only later, animals living on the land masses appeared.

Quoting Genesis:
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

And last of them all, men evolved from early primates. Again, they got it right.

Now, one can interpret that in different directions:
First, coincidence.
Second, an early high culture had some knowledge of evolution, which the writers of the bible didn't quite get and so Genesis was written as creational story.
Third, the bible is right and fossiles more or less prove that.

Being an atheist, I'm tending towards possibilities one or two  .
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:28 pm

About the translation part, I find it interesting that the King James bible is still in use in the US. It was already in old English when it was made ! A lot of words have changed meaning since then, and this bring confusion. Also, the old English makes it kind of "mystical", so people tend to take it more literally than they should.

[Edited 2010-07-23 07:29:55]
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GDB
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:28 pm

It's a myth largely put about by religious zealots, that there is some grand conspiracy against faiths.
No, science is about investigation, experiment, peer review.
Some do become wedded to theories despite new evidence, they are behaving like the religious zealots when they do this.

Best judge on precedent, how often has faith been proved right over scientific evidence?
A few hundred years ago saying the Earth went around the Sun could land you in deep trouble.
Today's deniers crave that same power, they don't have it, so they try to undermine more indirectly, joining school boards in some parts of the US seems to be one of them.

While evolution does not - nor claims to - have all the answers. Yet.
But the trend is heading in one direction.

I'd take that over a formula which seems to be 'X is true because I say so'. Or 'Y is true because 1000's of years ago someone wrote so'.
If you visited your doctor you would not want him/her to practice medieval medicine on you. Though many creationists of course do use the full range of modern medicine, some from research linked with evolution. Bit hypocritical?

To the idea that faiths should remain static - so OK to burn suspected 'witches' go give one example.
Or how about the Islamist terrorists, who practice a 'pure' form of their faith, others, the great majority, see this as a perversion of Islam, Picking and choosing various texts to advance an agenda.
Sounds a lot like Christian Fundamentalist, see how they use small extracts from the Bible to justify homophobia, what about the parts about not eating certain foods on certain days, stoning your wife and what are you doing financially helping those Moneylenders In The Temple?

So to survive, faiths have to adjust to the realities of the world, saying the Earth is a few thousand years old just is stupid, that's all it is.

How much of the Bible was even meant to be taken absolutely literally? How much is allegory-better not mention that to a fundamentalist, they may connect allegory with getting a skin rash from a Bible or something.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:55 pm

When it comes down to it, science and religion both embrace the concept of Infinite.
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zrs70
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:57 pm

Also, keep in mind that there are two totally different creation stories in Genesis!
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:28 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
Where are they? Show me some mainstream preachers teaching against evolution.
http://creation.com/famous-preacher-creation-not-evolution

http://www.higherpraise.com/preachers/norris.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Rice

http://reason.com/blog/2007/12/28/is-ron-paul-an-evolution-denie

Sure Ron Paul ain't a preacher, but he and many other bible thumping bureaucrats are strongly against evolution.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 3):
Once a society accepts evolution, it basically rejects the founding principal of most religious thought

You're going on the premise that these are mutually exclusive.
 
signol
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 20):
I almost have more respect for Christians who do deny evolution.

I'm almost the opposite - I have more respect for people who critically think about everything they believe, reject those things they see as nonsense and maintain the things they believe strongly in.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Couldn't God have made the universe in one "big bang" and made the animals through evolution?

Yes, exactly.

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mt99
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:55 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 30):
Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 3):
Once a society accepts evolution, it basically rejects the founding principal of most religious thought

You're going on the premise that these are mutually exclusive.

In a pure sense they are. If something in the Bible is proven wrong.. what does that to the credibility of rest of it?
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:02 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):
what does that to the credibility of rest of it?

What about it? The Bible comes from many different sources, ancient writings from old Israelites, accounts of Jesus' life from the gospels, and letters from one man (Paul) to various churches around the classical world. Each part therefore should be treated separately - they were only joined relatively recently.

signol
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Maverick623
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:04 pm

Simple: Most religions want people to accept what they teach without giving any hard physical evidence to support them. Science is based on empirical data and observations that can be tested and supported.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
science does not yet know how things went from "unliving" to living matter

The concept of "living" and "not living" is a human one. Look at viruses.... they can do everything but self-replicate without a host cell, a "necessary" function of "life". People assume fine lines when there are none.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
science hasn't yet figured out when consciousness occurs in living beings

Humans, contrary to popular belief, are not the rule makers. What we define as "consciousness" is a reflection of how we perceive the world. So the question you pose (when does it happen?) is not really a valid one.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
mt99
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting signol (Reply 33):
What about it? The Bible comes from many different sources, ancient writings from old Israelites, accounts of Jesus' life from the gospels, and letters from one man (Paul) to various churches around the classical world. Each part therefore should be treated separately - they were only joined relatively recently.

signol

I agree with you 100% - but you cant deny that there are groups of people who do not think that way.
Step into my office, baby
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:46 pm

Look, there are religions that attempt to answer questions that cannot otherwise be answered.

There are other religions that demand that followers reject facts as an article of faith.

The idea, for example, of a sun-centric universe (instead of earth-centric) was very threatening to the Catholic Church. It meant that something that they'd been preaching was wrong. But if the Church was wrong then...

... get it?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
But if the Church was wrong then...

...it's pretty sure they're wrong to this date on everything else    

[Edited 2010-07-23 15:15:11]
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:15 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 2):
Is God so inept He couldn't design evolution?

Exactly. Evolution does happen. We know for example, that the average person has gotten taller over the years. You'd have to be an idiot to think evolution does not exist, but the argument should be where the starting point was. Chances are no one is ever going to know for sure, so it's nice for the media.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
Maybe because science has no room for nonsense such as life appearing *POOF* like magic out of nowhere?

Well, that is exactly what would have needed to have happened sometime between the Big Bang and now.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:24 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
Well, that is exactly what would have needed to have happened sometime between the Big Bang and now.

I'm assuming you meant BEFORE the Big Bang and now?

I hope large hadron collide gets going again soon because I really want to know what made the Big Bang go, well, BAAANG! 
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:28 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 21):
That's like asking why your pencil hates coffeemakers.

Actually, I have noticed the tension brewing
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:05 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
I don't see how evolution and the big bang are incompatible with God. Couldn't God of made the universe in one "big bang" and made the animals through evolution?

I agree, I don't see why Evolution couldn't be caused by God.

However, I think it is the Religious fundamentalists that are making religion anti evolution by taking the creation in 6 days too literally.

Six days to God, could be 6 million years to humans and the creation was done through evolution. However, most fundamentalist Christians refuse to believe that the earth is any more than 5-6,000 years old.
 
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:10 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
Total straw man. There really aren't any mainstream "evolution deniers." Where are they? Show me some mainstream preachers teaching against evolution. It's a convenient ploy to discredit the Christians.

I know plenty of Christians today who take the Creation very literally as how it says in the Bible, just about any Fundamentalist Christian (those who take the Bible literally) will say the world was created in 6 days and the earth is relatively young - less than 6,000 years vs. the 10 billion or whatever how old Evolution teaches these days.
 
Merlot
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:15 am

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 24):
To begin with, I am an atheist and accept evolution as a fact.

But has everyone beside me ever noticed that the Genesis and evolution basically tell the same thing? Just leave out the words "God created" and substitute "days" by a couple of billions of years and you're there:

GREAT POINT!

You say you're an atheiest, yet you've obviously read the Bible - outstanding....

Comments like this:

Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 10):
all those other fairytales,

...are just as laughable as the rare view that science had no role in the rise of man. Many pseudo-intellectuals poo-poo the Bible because they've pre-decided it's nonsense based on little tidbits they've heard about it somewhere. Many justify their laziness in not actually reading the best selling and most influential book of all time by loudly arguing how dumb it is to take the Bible seriously - despite it being accepted as a history book by every mainstream university or historian in the world.

The Bible's story of creation is on one level how you might explain evolution to a small child or a man living hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Substitute "Mother Nature" for God or substitute "The forces of Science and Evolution" for God and there's no contradiction.

If you can't see how the symbolism and analogies in the Bible work on many levels and speak to all levels of intelligence or ignorance - then maybe you are the one who is ignorant.

Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 3):
The theory of evolution is quite contradictory no most religion's view of the forming of life on earth, (usually some sort of children's style, Santa Claus like fairytale)
Quoting Kiwiinoz (Reply 10):
Evolution contradicts the accepted theory of religion,

No, it doesn't.
Go beyond a simplistic view of the Bible and religion based on a cursory and shallow review of TV shows, movies and whatever else you see in the popular media - read it with an open mind.
Many scientists believe in a role for a creator

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
How much is allegory

Wait a minute! You're so enlightened to point out that if Shakespeare and Stephen King can use allegory, parables and symbolism then maybe the Bible does too? Amazing....maybe those who have simply rejected everything in the Bible without even reading it can take a point from you.

Merlot
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting merlot (Reply 43):
You say you're an atheiest, yet you've obviously read the Bible - outstanding....

I think you'll find that most Atheists have. By the nature of their position, (ie rationalising the non-existence of God), they prefer to make informed decsions

Quoting merlot (Reply 43):
Go beyond a simplistic view of the Bible

That the "simplistic view of the bible" is some sort of misinterpretation is a cop out. The bible was written with the absolute intention to be taken literally. In parts it is a story, and is not open to interpretation. In parts, it is a series of ideas, (and can be interpretted)

Much of religious foundation relies on the literal occurrence of the non-interpretive sections. And this is why it is at odds with evolutionists.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:53 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 42):
vs. the 10 billion or whatever how old Evolution teaches these days.

A minor technicality, but strictly speaking the theory of evolution deals with biological life forms. Geology is the study of Earth and it's history.

Quoting merlot (Reply 43):
despite it being accepted as a history book

First off, the Bible is not a book in and of itself, but a collection of other books and stories. Another minor technicality, but one that should be mentioned, because many of the books contradict themselves in places.

Also, while some of the books do describe or refer to historical events, not one single story is taken at face value by historians.

Quoting merlot (Reply 43):
Many scientists believe in a role for a creator

First of all, all those "scientists" in that link are also members of an organized religion, and one of them actively refuses to even try to use the scientific method because of his pre-conceived notions that they'll bear no fruit.

Secondly, if you do find a true scientist that believes that a creator is possible, it would be because of his present inability to find any evidence to the contrary. There are believable scenarios is which a creator is possible, but to suggest that such a creator uses superstition and allegory to make their creations worship him as a god is laughable. Especially when suggesting that one of the modern organized religions is the "correct" one.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:55 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):

Exactly. Evolution does happen. We know for example, that the average person has gotten taller over the years.

That ain't evolution. That's nutrition and a lack of parasites and other illnesses.

However, an example of evolution is that an increasing percentage of women are unable to deliver vaginally. Why is this evolution? Well, back in the bad old days, if you were a mom who couldn't deliver a baby vaginally, both you and the baby died. Then the Cesarian section was invented about 2-3,000 years ago. At that point, there ceased to be a selective pressure to be able to deliver vaginally.

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria are another example of evolution.
-Doc Lightning-

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dragon6172
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
That ain't evolution. That's nutrition and a lack of parasites and other illnesses.

However, an example of evolution is that an increasing percentage of women are unable to deliver vaginally. Why is this evolution? Well, back in the bad old days, if you were a mom who couldn't deliver a baby vaginally, both you and the baby died. Then the Cesarian section was invented about 2-3,000 years ago. At that point, there ceased to be a selective pressure to be able to deliver vaginally.

I do not understand how humans creating Cesarian births and thus increasing the percentage of women unable to deliver vaginally is different from humans altering their nutrient intake and thus increasing the average height.
Phrogs Phorever
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 47):
I do not understand how humans creating Cesarian births and thus increasing the percentage of women unable to deliver vaginally is different from humans altering their nutrient intake and thus increasing the average height.

It is different because it affects survival rates. But then again, diets can also do that so you probably have PART of a point.

However, you could always agonise over this:

From Wiki:

..and colleagues, proposed a neo-Lamarckian mechanism to try to explain why homologous DNA sequences from the VDJ gene regions of parent mice were found in their germ cells and seemed to persist in the offspring for a few generations. The mechanism involved the somatic selection and clonal amplification of newly acquired antibody gene sequences that were generated via somatic hyper-mutation in B-cells. The mRNA products of these somatically novel genes were captured by retroviruses endogenous to the B-cells and were then transported through the blood stream where they could breach the soma-germ barrier and retrofect (reverse transcribe) the newly acquired genes into the cells of the germ line. Although Steele was advocating this theory for the better part of two decades, little more than indirect evidence was ever acquired to support it. An interesting attribute of this idea is that it strongly resembles Darwin's own theory of pangenesis, except in the soma to germ line feedback theory, pangenes are replaced with realistic retroviruses.

Look up similar material under Ted Steele. And NO, do not confuse Steele's ideas with those of Lysenko.
 
RottenRay
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RE: Why Is Evolution So Anti-religious?

Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:46 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
Total straw man. There really aren't any mainstream "evolution deniers." Where are they? Show me some mainstream preachers teaching against evolution. It's a convenient ploy to discredit the Christians.

Not necessarily preachers, just their political minions...

Tennesse - Scopes Monkey Trial

Kansas

Maine - Paul LePage for Governor




Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):
If something in the Bible is proven wrong.. what does that to the credibility of rest of it?

Many things in the bible have been proven "wrong" - the edicts to kill those who don't believe in your god, the taking of slaves, et cetera.

Now I'm going to substitute a word here: "incorrect" for "wrong."

There really is no way to prove any part of the bible to be incorrect or correct. Even if one did, its overall credibility would remain the same. People interpret it as they see fit and will continue to do so.

Essentially, it is this interpretation that most agnostics and atheists disagree with, and it is this interpretation which has lead to the formation of the numerous bible-based religions.




Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 41):
However, I think it is the Religious fundamentalists that are making religion anti evolution by taking the creation in 6 days too literally.

Along with many other topics...





Quoting merlot (Reply 43):
Maybe those who have simply rejected everything in the Bible without even reading it can take a point from you.

Much the same as those who simply reject everything in the theory of evolution without taking the time to understand it can take a point...



RR

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