Derico
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Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:07 pm



I know it's a very serious and passionate subject, but I'm sorry this story is just too, ironic?

"Florencia Peña, known in Argentina for being a publicity face for the north american brand Huggies diapers, threw her support for an abortion bill in a column she wrote for the newspaperTiempo Argentino, and has been supportive of the campaign for women's right to choose for some time, while also being spokeswoman for the Kimberley-Clark company's diaper brand."

"An internet campaign urging consumers to boycott Huggies has quickly taken grass roots hold, forcing the multinational to scramble a statement distancing themselves from Peña's now public position.''

''In light of recent statements made by Ms. Florencia Peña in relation to the sensitive issue of abortion, Kimberley-Clark Argentina makes clear her views are strictly her own and do not in any way speak for our company or it's brands''.


http://www.mdzol.com/mdz/nota/227989...a-un-trabajo-por-apoyar-el-aborto/


Kinda like supporting cryogenic chambers, while doubling as a casket salesperson? 

[Edited 2010-08-02 15:08:17]
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photopilot
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:27 pm

I don't have a problem with it. Hell, she supports FREE CHOICE which also means that many women will CHOOSE to have the baby. And those babies will need Huggies. What's the big deal.

Oh, and when she was faced with "the choice" she chose to have the baby. The headline translates as "Pregnancy makes me feel like a sexy woman".

 
greasespot
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:28 pm

Not really just because you support. Womens choice dwoes not mean you do not like or want kids. I cannot and do not see how or why the two are even connected.

Gs
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ual747den
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:34 pm

I don't understand why this is so ironic?

I support a womans right to choose what they want to do with their bodies, however I have 4 kids and neither my wife or I would ever consider abortion. Just because people don't think the government should be able to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies does not mean we are some kind of crazy baby killers! Don't let the propaganda from the right cloud your mind too much!
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StuckInCA
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:08 pm

Shakes head at the thought that supporting a woman's right to choose means that you dislike babies.

*SHAKE*
 
seb146
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:12 am

Why is this an issue? Can't a woman have kids but still want to keep abortion legal? Some women want to have that choice. It is a choice. Not manditory. Non-issue, if you ask me.
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wn700driver
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:23 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 3):
Don't let the propaganda from the right cloud your mind too much!

Interesting point there. I do wonder how history will judge this when the cloud of right v left lifts, and the stink of religion evaporates from the "issue"...

And yes, it is Ironic, in the most classical sense, especially if she is being compensated both for the advert and the publication of the article in question.
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Derico
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:23 am

Well Kimberley-Clark thinks it might, because every indication is that she will be ''fired'' from the adds. She won't miss the income though.

I personally am against abortion (yet I'm in favor of gay and polygamist marriages, and leisurely about drug laws, figure me out)... I guess it would be wrong to fire her for her views, I would not support that.

That's the ''beauty'' about this case, if they fire her people will cry freedom of expression, if she were to stay the company faces a backlash. For sure it won't be anything they would have to worry about as a company globally, but in the local market they could be hurt.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:32 am

Good for her. I'll be buggered if I can see the the problem with that.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:58 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 3):
I don't understand why this is so ironic?

Because it's not.

It boils down to a fact that a person in an advertisement has a view that he/she has expressed outside of that advertisement.

It seems that OTHER people got a hold of that fact, and decided to boycott the advertised product because of it.

Quoting Derico (Reply 7):
Well Kimberley-Clark thinks it might, because every indication is that she will be ''fired'' from the adds. She won't miss the income though.

I would guess that Kimberley-Clark is distancing itself from her due to the boycott, not specifically due to her views. However, I can't read Spanish, so don't know exactly what the article says about it.
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ual747den
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:24 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 6):
And yes, it is Ironic, in the most classical sense, especially if she is being compensated both for the advert and the publication of the article in question.

What is ironic about any of it? Why can't a person who supports a womans right to choose what she does with her body advertise a product for children? It is just a pathetic attempt to cause trouble, and a really bad one at that. I don't think many people are stupid enough to believe the trash they are trying to put out.
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Derico
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:39 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 10):
Why can't a person who supports a womans right to choose what she does with her body advertise a product for children?

They can. But I mean it's a rather odd position to place your employer in given that the product is not just only for children but almost exclusively associated with newborns and infants.
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Superfly
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:56 am

Kimberley-Clark should seriously consider Republican Senator David Vitter of Louisiana.
He is anti-abortion AND he wears diapers.

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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):
But I mean it's a rather odd position to place your employer in given that the product is not just only for children but almost exclusively associated with newborns and infants.

Even though she's had a kid???

Like I said in my earlier post, I doubt the employer would have cared one bit had there not been talk of a boycott.
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Mir
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:25 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 1):
Hell, she supports FREE CHOICE which also means that many women will CHOOSE to have the baby. And those babies will need Huggies. What's the big deal.

Pretty much sums it up.

Just because you support abortion does not mean you support aborting all babies.

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Derico
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:42 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 13):

Even though she's had a kid???

Like I said in my earlier post, I doubt the employer would have cared one bit had there not been talk of a boycott.

Quite likely, I guess. It still is odd that you would sponsor a product that is the symbol of taking responsibility, when in my opinion abortion absolves women of any responsibility for their actions (which is my opposition of it in practical terms). While I oppose it morally and many do, I woudn't be against it based on my moral values. I'm just not in favor of making a certain group of people not live up to their duties, when everyone else (at least in law), has to for their behavior.



[Edited 2010-08-02 21:45:19]
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Aeroflot001
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:15 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):

I know it's a very serious and passionate subject, but I'm sorry this story is just too, ironic?

Im 99 percent sure but isnt this the actress from la ninera and Casados con hijos with Guillermo Francella. Im in Baires right now so this may come out on the news tommorow.
 
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
but I'm sorry this story is just too, ironic?

And that's a bit like saying that it's ironic that a spokesperson for a car company is be against drunk driving.

No, it's not ironic, unless you believe that people who support a woman's right to choose also want to kill babies.

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Derico
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 pm

That's why I oppose abortion in practical terms, because of the absolving of responsibility.

The analogy with the car salesman would be more fitting if he sold cars and was in beer or liquor adds. But there is the difference with modern abortion laws: there are no consequences outlined legally. I just find that unfair. The guy selling cars can support softer drinking laws, but if he drinks and something happens, society will still make him own up.

I have the ''right'' to drink as much as I wish. I don't have the right to then get in a machine during it's effects. Nor do I have the right for everyone to pay for my transportation (though they might) every time I get drunk, and if they don't, Idon't gain the right to drive and cause an accident. The law would never justify my lack of ''mobility'' as an excuse to go around my responsibilities as a citizen for my actions. If I cause an accident or worse while intoxicated, I will pay the consequences.

I have the right to have sex promiscuosly and without protection, but if I father children, I better pay for the entire 18+ years of their development. If not and the law catches up to me, I will pay the consequences. I go one step further... I should also be castrated.

If people smoke, and then they cannot enter a bar or to watch a movie, that's a consequence. They can't use any excuse to permit themselves to smoke in the interior of many locales. When they develop all kinds of health problems, that's the consequence they sow. And I'm opposed to society paying for their healthcare. Same if you do other drugs (which I think should be legal).

In my worldview, there should be as much individual freedom as possible, as long as you are an adult and accept that for every behavior you are the owner of it's outcome.

..Yet if a woman is promiscous and uses no protection, and ends up withchild, she is allowed to run away from responsibility? Where are the consequences there?? Not fair. That's my problem. Men, women, and everyone in between should have equal rights and duties for their behaviors and choices. Otherwise ''some are more equal than others''.

I would be for a modern abortion law if it also included a change in civil law in which that men do not have to pay for their children, alimony or divide his side of the assets, if the woman initiates divorce.
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ual747den
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:40 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):
They can. But I mean it's a rather odd position to place your employer in given that the product is not just only for children but almost exclusively associated with newborns and infants.

So what if its for newborns and infants? Again I am completely for free choice and I have had 4 newborns, I know this will shock you, I didn't kill any of them. They are healthy, smart, happy kids today and their Mom and I love them very much.
Is it really that hard to believe that someone who doesn't want the government telling woman what they can and cannot do with their body would love his/her kids and not want to kill them!!! GET REAL!

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
I'm just not in favor of making a certain group of people not live up to their duties, when everyone else (at least in law), has to for their behavior.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! What duties are those that you are so worried about? You actually remind me of my little kids, they throw a huge fit if one gets something the other doesn't, even if it isn't of any use to the other kid!

Why are you so worried about someone getting something you can't have? And by the way, just so you know, a man is just as responsible for making a child as a woman. The man is also responsible for supporting that child in every way for the next 18+ years.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:46 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 18):
..Yet if a woman is promiscous and uses no protection, and ends up withchild, she is allowed to run away from responsibility? Where are the consequences there?? Not fair. That's my problem.

So you'd rather have someone who is potentially a very unprepared and unfit mother raise a child? Keep in mind, there's really no way to force someone to be a good parent.

Sometimes, it could be the responsible thing to do to admit that you are woefully unprepared to have a child.

Quoting Derico (Reply 18):
Men, women, and everyone in between should have equal rights and duties for their behaviors and choices. Otherwise ''some are more equal than others''.

As soon as men can give birth, then we can make everything surrounding childbirth equal. After all, men are just as responsible as women for having protected sex....But they don't have to carry a baby for 9 months.
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wn700driver
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

Just because you support abortion does not mean you support aborting all babies.

I understand that people say this a lot, but it doesn't really square. If the argument is so in favor of "choice" why then is there never any mention or effort of simply being responsible and avoiding the need for a choice? The only logical conclusion is that this "choice" is the outcome of a society that is too far gone in its quest for entitlement.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 19):

Is it really that hard to believe that someone who doesn't want the government telling woman what they can and cannot do with their body would love his/her kids and not want to kill them!!!

Bad argument. I can use parts of my body to physically assault, maim, or kill another human being. And I can just about assure you that "it's my body, I can do what I want with it" will not keep me from some serious prison time.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 19):
And by the way, just so you know, a man is just as responsible for making a child as a woman.

Is that why you get 0% say in whether or not a child is aborted? I know that's not a central part of the debate, certainly not enough to base a choice of one side over the other. But it has long been a sticking point that you have one individual making a choice that effects two more, in addition to herself...

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
But they don't have to carry a baby for 9 months.

And apparently neither do women. Point?

As for the add, yes, it's clearly playing both sides of a pretty narrow street. But I've seen far worse, so that's all kind of whatever...
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:47 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 21):
why then is there never any mention or effort of simply being responsible and avoiding the need for a choice?

Let's say there's 7 billion people on the planet...Let's say that equals 4 billion adults making babies (lets ignore the 13yo mums for a second)....add in a few assumptions like if condoms have a 98% success rate & 100% fertility and half the adult population is female and potentially child bearing, and that 5% of those 2 billion are unsuitable mothers (though it's probably much higher) that makes 40 000 000 potential 'accidents' a year (presuming that everyone has sex once a year... ). Of that number that means 2 million children a year that would be born to complete dead weights to humanity and 38 million kids born to loving stable families. 20% of those kids to loving families who can't afford to feed/clothe/house the kid that makes 7.6million kids a year subjected to poverty and ill health That's 9.6 million a year that society ends up paying for in the long run..... That doesn't sound responsible to me.

As we know the numbers are entirely theoretical, but used as an exercise to show that life doesn't fit into boxes and that all options should be available in the knowledge that some people will choose them, and others won't based on what is right for their individual needs.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:28 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 21):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
But they don't have to carry a baby for 9 months.

And apparently neither do women. Point?

Here:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
As soon as men can give birth, then we can make everything surrounding childbirth equal.

How do you make something fair and equal when it's inherently unfair and unequal?

And if abortion was illegal, then yes, a woman would have to carry a baby for 9 months.

For many things, it makes perfect sense to say "you have to live with the consequences of your actions". But do we really want to "punish" someone who accidentally got pregnant by forcing them to raise the child? Sure, we could say "that'll teach them!" But we'd be wrong quite often, and another child would be raised in a household that was ill-prepared and uncaring. And that is really not fair to the child.

Look, I don't like abortion. It's something to be avoided as much as possible. But I do think it can be the better (and more responsible) option in some cases.
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Mir
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:17 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 21):
If the argument is so in favor of "choice" why then is there never any mention or effort of simply being responsible and avoiding the need for a choice?

I think you'll find that the vast majority of pro-choice people do support that sort of thing, and encourage women to avoid having to make the choice whether to have an abortion or not. But when push comes to shove, they do support that choice being available.

This is in contrast to many in the anti-abortion crowd, who would rather see everyone held to their own religious standards, and it's not surprising that such a strategy isn't as effective at preventing women becoming pregnant when they are not at all capable of being proper parents.

Who is really being more responsible?

-Mir
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wn700driver
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:15 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):

How do you make something fair and equal when it's inherently unfair and unequal?

By eliminating superfluous options

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):
But do we really want to "punish" someone who accidentally got pregnant by forcing them to raise the child?

Ahhh. Who said anything about punishing anyone? Honestly, to me this is no more a women's rights issue than illegal immigration is a highway construction issue. The fact is that this would be just as awful a thing to do if only men could could make that choice too. You write about punishing people... How does taking the life of a third party, for reasons of convenience or poor planning, square with not wanting to punish people?

The fact is that it's really not important what happens to the mother (or father) involved. Adoption is available as an option as well, and no, it's not all that pretty, I'm sure. But it beats the alternative hands down.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):

This is in contrast to many in the anti-abortion crowd, who would rather see everyone held to their own religious standards,

Whoa there, cowboy. Religion is something I'm far more "anti" than abortion. You need to understand that just because someone doesn't agree with something doesn't mean they take up the crosses (no pun intended) of others who hold that opinion. You may be surprised to find how many people in the anti-abortion are not religious at all. Of course, that is inconvenient, as it makes it more difficult for us to be casually brushed aside...

What I'd actually rather see is a society that knows how to use protection, morning after pills, etc, as opposed to killing children off for the sake of convenience. It's not a popular stance now (oddly enough, much the same was true of women's rights when that movement took off...), but I do believe that supporting elective abortions of any kind places one on the wrong side of history.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:32 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 25):
Ahhh. Who said anything about punishing anyone?

I did. It's just an argument you see pretty often (not just about abortion - about many major and minor decisions): "be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions". And with regard to most things, I agree. But with unplanned pregnancy, which concerns a life that has had no say in its accidental creation, I'm much more cautious with that statement.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 25):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):

How do you make something fair and equal when it's inherently unfair and unequal?

By eliminating superfluous options

I don't understand your answer.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 25):
You write about punishing people... How does taking the life of a third party, for reasons of convenience or poor planning, square with not wanting to punish people?

I'm not saying it does (see my answer above).
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JJJ
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
Sometimes, it could be the responsible thing to do to admit that you are woefully unprepared to have a child.

So right. When a woman seeks abortion usually there's a very good reason. She might be a teenager, or a drug user, or a single person working long hours just to make ends meet, or the father might be any of the above or worse....

There are many good reasons why abortion should not be taken as a birth control method... but the previous point still stands.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 25):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):

How do you make something fair and equal when it's inherently unfair and unequal?

By eliminating superfluous options

I don't understand your answer.

I know that there's no fair way out of that particular concern. Whichever path is chosen, there is the better than likely probability that either the man or the woman involved will get shafted. Therefore, that particular aspect of the debate holds about zero weight either way, and the default position becomes to carry the pregnancy through. Since the absolute safety of the mother and father is never in question, their concerns essentially boil down to convenience when compared to a child potentially being killed over it.

Keep in mind that that question easily can also be reversed with the woman wanting to keep the child, and the man wanting to kill it as well. This is why gender based reproductive rights mean nothing here. The issue should not be which adult or teenager gets inconvenienced. And while I'm not all about punishment per se, I'm not sympathetic to their wants either.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
I did. It's just an argument you see pretty often

Not from me you didn't. As said above, it should never matter what happens WRT lifestyle changes etc, to the adults involved when the welfare of a child is in question. If everyone comes out ahead, great. If not, well life isn't always easy...

Quoting JJJ (Reply 27):

There are many good reasons why abortion should not be taken as a birth control method... but the previous point still stands

The problem is that there are no good reasons why it should...

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 22):
Let's say there's 7 billion people on the planet...

I read your whole statement, just didn't want to use up space quoting it all. I think I get the gist of what you're saying though.

The problem is that Abortion, even if it were a truly acceptable option, is a very poor method of population control. What you're talking about is essentially building a dam twenty meters below the flood line, when the problem should have been tackled miles upstream.

Let me just say that the way the pro-life movement in this country, and many others, has been handled is just awful. We cannot expect abstinence to be the solution, nor can we openly discourage the use of contraceptives (which honestly are much more than 99% effective...) and expect that there will not be idiotic answers like this to the problem of unplanned pregnancy.

I truly feel that educating people to the correct uses of medically approved contraceptives will take care of >90% of the problem, which with these numbers, is a pretty good start.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:14 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 28):
Not from me you didn't. As said above, it should never matter what happens WRT lifestyle changes etc, to the adults involved when the welfare of a child is in question. If everyone comes out ahead, great. If not, well life isn't always easy...

Correct, you didn't say that. I was commenting more generally.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 28):
I know that there's no fair way out of that particular concern. Whichever path is chosen, there is the better than likely probability that either the man or the woman involved will get shafted. Therefore, that particular aspect of the debate holds about zero weight either way, and the default position becomes to carry the pregnancy through. Since the absolute safety of the mother and father is never in question, their concerns essentially boil down to convenience when compared to a child potentially being killed over it.
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 28):
The issue should not be which adult or teenager gets inconvenienced. And while I'm not all about punishment per se, I'm not sympathetic to their wants either.

Trust me, I agree wholeheartedly with this decision being based on the child, not the parents. That's what concerns me - many children are born into absolutely abhorrent situations.
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Aesma
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:47 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 6):
Interesting point there. I do wonder how history will judge this when the cloud of right v left lifts, and the stink of religion evaporates from the "issue"...

Well, you can look at other countries where this has happened. France had a law legalizing abortion in 1975 (not a court's decision, however there was an underage girl's trial soon before, she had been raped and had an illegal abortion but got acquitted), all on the left were for it, but the right/center-right had the majority, however enough were also for it for the law to pass. Since then, it has had virtually no challenge, and even extreme right-wing parties don't talk about abolishing it, they know they would lose votes. Religion has no say in the French political realm, that certainly helps.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 21):
I understand that people say this a lot, but it doesn't really square. If the argument is so in favor of "choice" why then is there never any mention or effort of simply being responsible and avoiding the need for a choice? The only logical conclusion is that this "choice" is the outcome of a society that is too far gone in its quest for entitlement.

Because that's another issue. In the US you have a problem both with abortion being a hot topic, and sex ed/contraception for girls being another one. I guess it's also because religion has the same view on both.

Here in France any girl under 18 can get contraception for free without the parents knowing it, and she can get a morning after pill at school (that is, collège and lycée, from 11 to 18). There is mandatory sex ed, of course, even in religious schools (except the few of them that are not staffed by government employees).

My view on the situation is that this is still not enough, and as a result the number of abortions is still quite high, around 200 000 per year. It's in the same ballpark as in the US (per inhabitants), so I guess the major difference is that there are far less teenage moms, and less babies in general, here.

BTW, the law was adopted as much because of an evolution of society, as because of a pragmatic point of view. There were 200 000 abortions (or more, before the pill) happening anyway, legalization permitted them to be carried out safely and quickly instead of gruesomely at a late stage.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):

Because that's another issue. In the US you have a problem both with abortion being a hot topic, and sex ed/contraception for girls being another one. I guess it's also because religion has the same view on both.

Religion is indeed a huge part of the problem with this. The fantasy that teenagers somehow won't have sex or that adults will just wait till marriage might as well be a suicide pact when we look at the long term effects of what happens to our population and economy as a result.

But the other side of it (the pro-abortion crowd) is just as intransigent and dug in over it. What needs to change is the mentality we have that Abortion is a form of contraception. Even if you weren't talking about killing a baby, it is still a significantly invasive procedure. I doubt most of its supporters fully realize this.

Personally, and way off topic, I will admit that I have no problem with morning-after pills, as the elimination of a uterine lining or even a zygote is not medically the same as hacking apart a near fully developed boy or girl in the 2nd or 3rd trimester. Perhaps the greater availability of knowledgeable use of such products will bring down the number of these killings. Who knows...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
Here in France any girl under 18 can get contraception for free without the parents knowing it, and she can get a morning after pill at school (that is, collège and lycée, from 11 to 18). There is mandatory sex ed, of course, even in religious schools (except the few of them that are not staffed by government employees).

This is one area I will admit France does a better job than us.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 29):
Correct, you didn't say that. I was commenting more generally.

In fairness, I see what you mean there. I do wish that more people who are pro-life, would be genuinely pro-life, instead of pushing a religious or punishment or jealously based agenda. I don't like it, but it is an all too fair criticism of the situation all too often.

For the record, I also think "pro-life" as an outlook should be extended to things like the death penalty (which I also vociferously oppose), as well. For consistency if nothing else...

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 29):
That's what concerns me - many children are born into absolutely abhorrent situations.

I can see where you're coming from there. But that can still be the case in others ways too. I was raised by people who should never have had children, for a multitude of reasons. And it was not accidental either. But I'm still glad they made the "choice" they did. I wouldn't for a picosecond have opted out.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:39 am

Women have the right to abort, since its their body. But abortion is wrong, and they should know this.
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dl021
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:03 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 6):
Interesting point there. I do wonder how history will judge this when the cloud of right v left lifts, and the stink of religion evaporates from the "issue"...
Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 1):
Hell, she supports FREE CHOICE which also means that many women will CHOOSE to have the baby. And those babies will need Huggies. What's the big deal.

Pretty much sums it up.

Just because you support abortion does not mean you support aborting all babies.

Well, to answer the above all with a couple of sentences. The people who find this ironic do so because in their eyes abortion is the termination of a human life. For many it also transcends left or right politics as well as religion. It's the idea that as a society we've decided to make it legal to terminate a life without due process on behalf of the child involved, and making that child less than a human. The slippery slope is also of concern, because if we can justify this how far removed are we from "A Modest Proposal" (and yeah, I know that's the opposite extreme)?

Just because you support abortion (and kudos to those of you willing to face that fact rather than obfuscating the issue by declaring it's about choice rather than actually aborting the development of a child prior to birth ... sort of like killing the kid a month after birth only you can't see the kid yet so it's easier...like buying the meat at the grocery store rather than killing the deer, dressing and butchering it....it's an easier and more palatable thing for most) doesn't mean that you support killing all babies. Well, that's fair. Just because one thinks that some people need killing doesn't mean that all people need killing. It's just a matter of opinion, right? Life is?

I think the basic issue is that people have made this about something other than life. Far too often I hear it's about "choice" from people who can't really state for certain that life has or hasn't already begun, and the idea that life hasn't begun until emergence from the womb is a slightly Orwellian concept to many. I think we ought to decide exactly when life begins and then decide as a society (not as the result of some judges' decisions) what rights and protections ought to be afforded. But lets have an honest discussion about that. My civil rights don't supercede yours. Yours don't supercede my nieces. A mothers right to choose doesn't negate the fact that she's a mother. Does it? If so why can't she drown the child the way my Maman said she wanted to with me (last week)?

Above all, let's not feign a lack of understanding. If you really don't get the irony or discord people feel over this, then look deeper into their thoughts than a quick dismissal based on religious or political prejudices.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 33):
If you really don't get the irony or discord people feel over this, then look deeper into their thoughts than a quick dismissal based on religious or political prejudices.

But it's not deeper than that. She's a freaking actress. She did a freaking diaper commercial. She supports abortion.

That last sentence is completely unrelated to the previous two. That's all there is to it.

If I look deeper, all I see is people's inability to separate work from personal beliefs. And that's fine if it's your own job. But why should someone else operate the same way? Why should you feel that you have to understand them and their decisions?
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:26 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 34):
If I look deeper, all I see is people's inability to separate work from personal beliefs. And that's fine if it's your own job. But why should someone else operate the same way? Why should you feel that you have to understand them and their decisions?

If your personal life involves trampling the civil rights of others, shouldn't that make an impact on how one perceives you employers? Why would they employ someone who's personal feelings and activities directly contradict the message it appears one is sending?

Whether or not I personally find it ironic, I can certainly see why others feel it so.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 34):
She's a freaking actress. She did a freaking diaper commercial. She supports abortion.

That last sentence is completely unrelated to the previous two. That's all there is to it.

"she's a director. she directed freaking documentaries. she supported Adolf Hitler (and made him and his cronies look majestic)." Are those sentences all unrelated?
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 35):
"she's a director. she directed freaking documentaries. she supported Adolf Hitler (and made him and his cronies look majestic)." Are those sentences all unrelated?

Did the actress in question make abortion look majestic through her diaper commercial (not sure how she could have achieved that)?

If not, then I don't think the analogy works...and I certainly don't see any irony there.

People were going to boycott the diaper brand, and that's perfectly fine. But I still don't see the irony.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 35):
Why would they employ someone who's personal feelings and activities directly contradict the message it appears one is sending?

That's the part I don't get. Diapers don't contradict supporting the right to choose abortion (it's supporting a choice to kill a fetus...not supporting killing all fetuses, and therefore not having any more babies who require diapers). As someone mentioned, the actress in question has a child.....

I'm conflicted on abortion myself. But I don't relate it to diapers by any stretch of my imagination. And like I've stated, I bet her employer wouldn't care one bit, except for the fact that people were organizing a boycott.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 35):
If your personal life involves trampling the civil rights of others, shouldn't that make an impact on how one perceives you employers?

I'm sure there are people at my work who are against gay marriage, and who voted for Prop 8. But although I find that pretty abhorrent personally, it doesn't affect my dealings with them at all.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
hacking apart a near fully developed boy or girl in the 2nd or 3rd trimester

Late-term abortions are far from the majority (where allowed, I mean), and personally I'm against it (unless the child has a medical condition). The French law allows (and pays for) abortion up to 12 weeks, that's the first trimester. Later than that is only possible if there is a problem with the child. I find it fair and balanced, the woman has time to decide if she needs to take it, and then at one stage she has to stick to her choice.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 33):
I think we ought to decide exactly when life begins and then decide as a society (not as the result of some judges' decisions) what rights and protections ought to be afforded

That's exactly what the 12 weeks limit is in French law.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:12 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
I'm sure there are people at my work who are against gay marriage, and who voted for Prop 8. But although I find that pretty abhorrent personally, it doesn't affect my dealings with them at all.

Well, since you live in California I'll let you off the hook for being conflicted,   but to be fair I'd say there's a big difference between having a legally recognized marriage and having your life terminated. But, I see your point and understand that you can feel one way and get along with others who feel another. That's the compromise of living in a free thinking society where freedom/civil rights and respect for the freedoms/civil rights of others is the compromise we make daily.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
But I still don't see the irony.

I guess that's because you don't see the irony.  

Seriously....I think that the irony comes, for some people, when they see the person who supports abortion shilling products for the babies that lived.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
Quoting dl021 (Reply 33):
I think we ought to decide exactly when life begins and then decide as a society (not as the result of some judges' decisions) what rights and protections ought to be afforded

That's exactly what the 12 weeks limit is in French law.

I understand that. I wonder what the determination was collectively with people that got together and voted on that? Did they decide that it was a nice round number or was there some scientific means of determining life was not there before 12 weeks, but one day after 12 weeks there is life? Just curious as to how they accounted for the vaguaries of humanity where some children develop faster than others. C'est curieux.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:41 am

Quoting dl021 (Reply 38):
Well, since you live in California I'll let you off the hook for being conflicted

Much appreciated!

Quoting dl021 (Reply 38):
but to be fair I'd say there's a big difference between having a legally recognized marriage and having your life terminated.

True - and I don't mean to compare the two in their scope. It was just the most prevalent example to come to mind.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 38):

Seriously....I think that the irony comes, for some people, when they see the person who supports abortion shilling products for the babies that lived.

I understand that, but I just really just struggle to find any irony in it. It'd be ironic if it were a black-and-white situation (i.e. kill all babies or let them all live and buy diapers), but it's not even close to that.
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Aesma
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:08 pm

You could see it as smart on the contrary, with the premise that a wanted children will get the best care, hence the "high-end" diapers, instead of the no-name ones that'll hurt its bottom 
Quoting dl021 (Reply 38):
I understand that. I wonder what the determination was collectively with people that got together and voted on that? Did they decide that it was a nice round number or was there some scientific means of determining life was not there before 12 weeks, but one day after 12 weeks there is life? Just curious as to how they accounted for the vaguaries of humanity where some children develop faster than others. C'est curieux.

I know it was 10 weeks when it was voted, and later extended to 12. I know doctors and professors were interviewed, but I don't know exactly how they came up with the number, it was in 1975, I wasn't born yet :P Every few years bioethics matters are discussed in the National Assembly, any new idea/knowledge on the matter can be brought up at that time, even religious leaders are interviewed.
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:22 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 19):
Why are you so worried about someone getting something you can't have? And by the way, just so you know, a man is just as responsible for making a child as a woman. The man is also responsible for supporting that child in every way for the next 18+ years.

No, if a woman has more power over a future child over a man (because she carries it), then that should carry all the way to adulthood.

In today's laws, the woman has the right to end a pregnancy (fine, even if I'm morally against it), but then when the kid is born by some magical act both man and woman have equal responsibilities?? What if the man does not want the child and the woman does? Guess what, the man has no say, and he will have to pay for the child. But if the woman does not, she can do something about it. Its all good if we are going to say ''men don't carry the child'' therefore have less say in what happens, but then that lesser say should carry all the way to age 18.

If she initiates a divorce, I shoudn't pay one cent for children I would see only once a week (if the man initiates a divorce, different story). I want to have children with a woman that will remain in a family and where I will see the children every day.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
As soon as men can give birth, then we can make everything surrounding childbirth equal. After all, men are just as responsible as women for having protected sex....But they don't have to carry a baby for 9 months.

I used to think like that too. But now I think of this explanation as a bit of a shield.

Why are men required to pay children support if they are not the ones that initiate a divorce process? If women wish abortion rights, why is it so wrong for a man to stop paying for children he barely interacts with? It's not like he is actually endangering them. The woman can support them, or ask the government for help.
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Aesma
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:54 am

I agree with the fact that society shouldn't punish men who don't want to be fathers, just like it shouldn't punish women who don't. However I disagree with your argument that then abortion should be banned, you don't solve an injustice with another one.

My father had to pay for a sister I almost never saw, he was fine with it because he loved her, and in fact not being able to see her much destroyed him in the long run, I hope his ex-wife is happy (she even accused him of things, and that was 30 years ago when it wasn't a common move yet).

On the other hand I was once with a very stupid yet manipulative girl and she could have lied to get pregnant in a heartbeat, I know she has a kid now and I'm not sure the father is quite happy about it (I'm sure it's not me, however).
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RE: Actress In Diaper Tv Ads Is An Abortion Activist

Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:10 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
I agree with the fact that society shouldn't punish men who don't want to be fathers, just like it shouldn't punish women who don't. However I disagree with your argument that then abortion should be banned, you don't solve an injustice with another one.

Exactly. I don't want to sound like I'm a mysogenist, but lets keep it real. Women are extremely manipulative these days, mainly because of these legal loopholes and advantages, and not because it's their nature. A lot of men may not want to say this out loud, but it's the truth.

If laws were that men could force a woman to abort and not to pay for children support of born kids, or if a man could take his wealth with him in divorce, then guess what.. we would see a HUGE increase in misbehavior and conduct of men towards women (as if there isn't enough already). That's why we have the laws that we do in most countries. Laws should exist to promote good behavior, and right now in the West because of the drive to overcompensate for a history of male dominance, the laws of divorce, division of assets, abortion and the like are promoting a culture were women win no matter what.

Why should I pay for children I never get to see because some woman divorced me? I'm not against abortion being legal because of my moral stance against, simply because it shifts the balance of power too much in one direction, which is why I argue that if it's to be legal then it must include some legal protection for men for already born children.

Of course in Europe and the United States, you are too late. You can change the laws (keep abortion but curve the right's of women in divorce court), but I guess you would get a lot of resistance. That resistance exist for a reason, the laws favor the woman.

Just like women's equality was so hard to achieve in the past, men had the power and didn't want to share it whatsoever.
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