Kiwirob
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Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:57 pm

After watching a bit of Big Love recently I can't see what the problem is with polygmy, if all the parties are entering into the marriage with eyes wide open why should society have a problem, whatever happened to free choice. Not that I want two wives or to share my wife with another bloke, not my thing but I don't see why people should be barred from that choice.

I like this quote from Mark Twain.

Twain asked to cite a Scripture reference that forbids polygamy, and he responds with, "No man can serve two masters."
 
Ken777
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:57 pm

Mark Twain was right! After 41 years of marriage (to one woman) I fully understand that there is no way more than one would work for most people. Besides the relationship with my wife there is also demands from kids, and then grandkids.

The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:18 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.

I certainly could never see myself having two wives, or being one of two husbands.

But in my opinion, I'm have no basis to tell other people that they can't either.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:29 pm

Basically, why society has a problem with it is because Polygamy goes a bit further than it was intended to be. Having more than one wife turns into marrying adults with minors which is a huge no-no. (Polygamy and bigamy at the same time). That is how I understand it, regardless if the above is right or wrong info.
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bhill
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:36 pm

It would seem to me that it would be easier to keep track of the genetic offsprings in a monogmous relationship...
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Tugger
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:42 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently I can't see what the problem is with polygmy, if all the parties are entering into the marriage with eyes wide open why should society have a problem, whatever happened to free choice. Not that I want two wives or to share my wife with another bloke, not my thing but I don't see why people should be barred from that choice.

I like this quote from Mark Twain.

Twain asked to cite a Scripture reference that forbids polygamy, and he responds with, "No man can serve two masters."

At its core, polygamy does not create a stable society for humans. It creates inequities and inequalities that are ultimately harmful to the society that they exist within. While in theory you could have balanced Wife headed as well as the standard Husband headed unions, that does not normally happen (and does not happen in nature either) so you end up with boys that must be cast out as there are no mates for them and they are a threat to the older established males.

Additionally, I have noted that they are not a "union of equals", there are always the "first wife" and a "second" and the rest follow along after that.

Another issue is how would divorce be handled since you have some many disparate issues and people involved?

And I do agree with Mark Twain!

Just my two cents.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:48 pm

A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?
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fxramper
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently

This is on my Netflix list. Worth keeping on there?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:10 pm

I think it's worth a watch.
 
desertjets
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:00 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 7):
Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently

This is on my Netflix list. Worth keeping on there?

I liked the first three seasons, apparently the 4th (didn't get a chance to see) was a bit of a dud.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
At its core, polygamy does not create a stable society for humans. It creates inequities and inequalities that are ultimately harmful to the society that they exist within. While in theory you could have balanced Wife headed as well as the standard Husband headed unions, that does not normally happen (and does not happen in nature either) so you end up with boys that must be cast out as there are no mates for them and they are a threat to the older established males.

Additionally, I have noted that they are not a "union of equals", there are always the "first wife" and a "second" and the rest follow along after that.

What he said.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:14 pm

I suggest you do research on:

  • Warren Jeffs
  • Colorado City, AZ
  • Hilldale, UT
  • The FLDS


Also, related to the above, but not as easy to search for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_boys_(polygamy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YFZ_Ranch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Jessop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_...olyn_Jessop_and_Laura_Palmer_book)
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DocLightning
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:15 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?

That's one big problem. What's a "divorce," who gets child support and custody and from whom and blah blah blah. Total mare's nest.

Second big problem is that polygamy does not and cannot work on the large scale because you will quickly run into a shortage of women. This is why even in "polygamous cultures" very few men actually do have multiple wives.

Ultimately, I have no problem with what other consenting adults want to do in their own homes with their own lives (as long as they are, in fact, consenting adults). This is why I support interracial, interreligious, and same-sex marriage.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
Basically, why society has a problem with it is because Polygamy goes a bit further than it was intended to be. Having more than one wife turns into marrying adults with minors which is a huge no-no. (Polygamy and bigamy at the same time). That is how I understand it, regardless if the above is right or wrong info.

That's fine. Nobody here is supporting child molestation. Polygamy does not imply child molestation. However, I firmly support the prosecution of those who use religion as an excuse for child molestation to the fullest extent of the law. They are two separate issues.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
However, I firmly support the prosecution of those who use religion as an excuse for child molestation to the fullest extent of the law.

I agree with you on that. I don't understand why they use children for their "crusade".

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
They are two separate issues.

That is what I thought.....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):
Warren Jeffs

What's up with this dude now. He got his convictions overturned by the Utah Supreme Court or something???
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:54 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What's up with this dude now. He got his convictions overturned by the Utah Supreme Court or something???

Apparently, it was a technicality. They are going to retry him again once he's done with TX (If TX lets him go.) As I understand it, even when he does go on trial again here, he's not going to get any relief.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
Apparently, it was a technicality.

Wrong jury instructions. How can someone give the jury wrong instructions? WTF?!

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
They are going to retry him again once he's done with TX (If TX lets him go.)

I think either Arizona threw out their case or Utah threw theirs out, I forgot who did. I am leaning towards Arizona....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
As I understand it, even when he does go on trial again here, he's not going to get any relief.

I think that dude made his own bed, he isn't gonna get any relief in this lifetime......
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:09 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I think either Arizona threw out their case or Utah threw theirs out, I forgot who did. I am leaning towards Arizona....

Since Utah had already convicted him, I'd lean towards AZ as well.
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mariner
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:19 am

Christians frequently tell me that the Bible is the unedited manuscript of God, and as frequently tell me that marriage is a religious institution ordained by God.

So where do all those polygamous patriarchs fit into this? Or King Solomon, with all his wives and concubines?

mariner
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:28 am

90% of all animals out there have multiple mates throughout their lifetimes. The earliest homo sapiens were certainly not monogamous all the time. It only makes sense from a genetic and evolutionary standpoint to spread your genes (assuming they're good ones) through as many suitable mates you can find.

That being said, and fast forwarding to current times, if a couple decide to be polygamous, then good for them. I don't see anything wrong with it, it won't affect me in any way shape or form.

Would I ever have more than one wife? NO. Dealing with one bitch is hard enough already   

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):

So where do all those polygamous patriarchs fit into this? Or King Solomon, with all his wives and concubines?

Oh don't worry, somebody is writing a newer version of the bible as we speak  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:49 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):

Oh don't worry, somebody is writing a newer version of the bible as we speak

Been done. His name was Joseph Smith. Creative writer he was. And oh, what a sex drive the man had!
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connies4ever
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:41 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Second big problem is that polygamy does not and cannot work on the large scale because you will quickly run into a shortage of women. This is why even in "polygamous cultures" very few men actually do have multiple wives.

Who said polygamy means one male with several wives ? What about one woman with several husbands ? (Yes, I know it's usually called polyandry...)

In a practical sense I can't really see it working, for many of the reasons already stated. And the history of it, at least in North America, seems to involve marrying very young girls to older men. This is usually viewed as child abuse -- and I believe rightly so since most of the girls aren't really freely entering into the relationship. Probably more evidence of the inability of most men to view women as other than property.

For me, serial monogamy has worked pretty well.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:01 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Been done. His name was Joseph Smith. Creative writer he was. And oh, what a sex drive the man had!

          
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):

In a practical sense I can't really see it working, for many of the reasons already stated. And the history of it, at least in North America, seems to involve marrying very young girls to older men. This is usually viewed as child abuse -- and I believe rightly so since most of the girls aren't really freely entering into the relationship. Probably more evidence of the inability of most men to view women as other than property.

That's one model, certainly. The hyperreligious folks tend to do the kiddie diddling, ironically enough.

The liberals here in San Francisco have a different model, which is polyamory. It's a more egalitarian set-up in which a couple basically has an open relationship and date other people. Sometimes, there are three-way or even four-way "couples" (for lack of a better word) of various gender mixes. And none of them would dare molest a child. None of them would dare cast someone out of a community with no resources. On other words, they aren't evil, they're just horny. Or, as my dear friend from college says, (she's a Ph.D. molecular biologist with a leather fetish) "I'm a poly bi switch. I'm not confused, I'm just greedy!"

Either way, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult and nobody is being permanently injured, I have no problem with it. It's not my job to judge.

The problem is that with the FLDS Church, not everyone is a consenting adult AND there are people being permanently injured.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:20 pm

Well, there is an ethnic group in Nepal, where there exists a shortage of women. There usually a woman marries a guy and his brothers as well.

Jan
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PPVRA
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:25 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?

A contractual clause? Not sure it has to be more complicated than that.

As for women, I doubt there will be a shortage. I am not aware of any historical evidence that indicates this (there is to the contrary, however: there are more women than man in this planet), but what's even worse is to think we somehow have the right to tell another person what s/he can or cannot do. To add insult to injury this argument implies that every person (whether man or woman) has a right to a partner. Are you kidding me? If I don't find a partner, can I go to the government, complain, and have them me assign a partner?   
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PPVRA
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:28 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):

Do you know what they are called? I am looking but can't find who they are.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:57 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):

Do you know what they are called? I am looking but can't find who they are.

I forgot. I just remember that I watched a documentary about them years ago on German TV.
My second wife came from a country where polygamy is legal and still done by some of the Muslims and traditional religious populations.
But according to her a man, who marries up to four women as per Islam, has to treat them all equal and has to set up a seperate household for each of them. This may have worked in a rural setting, where each wife had a house and some fields for subsistence, so that they can basically feed themselves (in this culture field work is woman´s work anyway), but in a modern industrial settings, where all depend on the man to earn enough to feed a lot of mouths, it simply doesn´t work anymore. Also, less and less West African women are willing to share their man with other women.
There was a nice comedy made in Ivory Coast some ten years ago (it is shown from time to time on European TV channels), about a young woman, who has to become the fourth, youngest wife of one of here father´s business partners (who is much older than her), even though she is in love with a guy of her age.
At first the much older other wives (who are pretty much controlled by the husband) are jealous and suspicious of her, but she, being educated and smart with a real talent for business, convinces her husband to set up a small shop, just for entertainment.
She also convinces the other wives to participate in the venue, giving them selfesteem and growing the business.
After a while this business is becoming a serious competition tio her husband´s one and towards the end it is actually driving the husband´s business into bankruptcy. In the end the husband agrees on a divorce, so that he can get rid of her before being broke, and the other three wives take over the business, but nothing is as it was before: The three older wives now control their own money and the husband lost his control over them, they are not dividede anymore and tell him what to do.


Jan
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:45 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
Since Utah had already convicted him, I'd lean towards AZ as well.

Utah convicted him, but the Utah Supreme Court threw out the conviction because of wrong instructions given to the jury. Arizona has decided not to pursue charges (under conditions, I think....). So Jeffs does not have a conviction.....yet.
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zrs70
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:31 pm

Thumbs up to the sanctity of Biblical marriage, which allows polygamy!
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DocLightning
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
There usually a woman marries a guy and his brothers as well.

That's the opposite of polygamy. It's polyANDRY. And that's the exact pattern in almost every society that does it: all the husbands are related.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 26):
Utah convicted him, but the Utah Supreme Court threw out the conviction because of wrong instructions given to the jury. Arizona has decided not to pursue charges (under conditions, I think....).

Correct; however, AZ dropped the pursuit PRIOR to UT reversing the decision. My post still stands.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 29):
My post still stands.

No, it doesn't. If Utah reversed his conviction, he is then - by law - not convicted. Utah has to start over again.
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Derico
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:32 pm

I hope Argentina makes them legal. Better yet, I hope the state gets out of the business of marriage altogether. Marriage is a religious and cultural issue, it has existed way before the modern nation-state, or ancient nation-state, was conceived.

This notion that marriage is a matter of federal or national concern is ridiculous. If a church or group wants to marry only men and women, fine. If two men and a woman wish to marry, or if one man and three women wish to, fine. If a man and a man wish to marry, ok. If a group only wants to marry within their religion, fine. Within their tribe? Ok. Within their race??? Ok as well. I know what I'm saying is perhaps controversial, but...

Isn't the act of marriage by definition discriminatory?? You choose someone over everyone else based on looks, perhaps race, perhaps religion, perhaps values, perhaps economic or social status, fame, intellenge, physical strength... That's a fact of life.

Get the state out of marriages. The state should only enforce taxation, division of assets and child custody as an arbitrator of private citizen marriages.

My problem would be with arranged marriages. I don't have a problem with them per say, specially in countries where the majority of the culture accepts them, that's totally fine. But in a country where individual's right to choose trumps almost everything else, if two people accept to be married it's all acceptable. But if one is being forced against their will, then I have a problem.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
No, it doesn't. If Utah reversed his conviction, he is then - by law - not convicted. Utah has to start over again.

Okay, let's get this straight:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I think either Arizona threw out their case or Utah threw theirs out, I forgot who did. I am leaning towards Arizona....

Since Utah had already convicted him, I'd lean towards AZ as well.

AZ threw out their case before UT reverse the decision. Since I was speaking in PAST TENSE, AND that AZ threw out the case BEFORE UT overturned the decision, my post is correct that at the time that AZ threw out their conviction, the ruling for UT was still standing. Therefore my statement that 'Since Utah had already convicted him, I'd lean towards AZ as well,' is full and correct , and therefore, is a perfectly VALID statement.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:45 pm

If you had multiple wives, maybe you would come home and find one of them in a good mood.   

I think one issue is from the legal standpoint. The government recognizes marriage for the extension of benefits, legal decisions, etc. The government would have a very difficult time recognizing polygamy for this reason, unless there were clear legal documents to spell out the rank order of who's in charge should something happen. Also, what about companies that extend benefits to spouses? Are they now going to be required to extend benefits to 7 spouses? If they gave benefits to only one spouse, the others would cry discrimination. Yet to give benefits to 7 spouses would get expensive quick.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:25 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 32):
AZ threw out their case before UT reverse the decision. Since I was speaking in PAST TENSE, AND that AZ threw out the case BEFORE UT overturned the decision, my post is correct that at the time that AZ threw out their conviction, the ruling for UT was still standing.

That's fine. But what I was saying is that Jeffs is no longer classified as a "convicted felon "anymore since Utah overturned his conviction. That's my point.

However, since you wrote this in reply 15....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
Since Utah had already convicted him

Which is now incorrect. Utah overturned his conviction which now makes Jeffs a person who does not have a conviction.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
Which is now incorrect. Utah overturned his conviction which now makes Jeffs a person who does not have a conviction.

We established this back in replies 12 & 13.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Polygamist Marriages

Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:41 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
If you had multiple wives, maybe you would come home and find one of them in a good mood.

And when they get on the same cycle you'll come home to many angry women every so often!   
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