Venus6971
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What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:14 am

I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.





http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007238,00.html
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par13del
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:23 am

There are atrocities all over, more so in wars, today principle goes as far as the next election where citizens really get to express their opinions. The conspiracy is that this picture is put on the front page immediately after the leak of all those military documents, coincidence?

Back on topic, how long does the US intend to stay in Afghanistan, one can expect the EU and other allies to leave ASAP, who exactly has been pushing the negotiations with the Taliban and is there another choice? No one wants to spend the time and the effort to make another choice viable, so expect the Taliban to be back in power in another 5 to 10 years. The strategy now is to convince us not the Afghan people that the exit strategy is the right one, now its all PR and someone at the Times is pushing another agenda.

Interesting times ahead.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:24 am

Afghanistan goes back to what it was. A place where terrorists were safe, women aren't, he with the most guns rules.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:28 am

The thing is that with the Iraq War, Afghanistan lost importance. Had the Iraq War never happened, we might have seen a different scenario. But a war cannot last forever and right now, when billions if not trillions of dollars have been spent for funding of the war, it's time to call it quits. This is just another Vietnam. A temporary truce with insurgents until the fragile Karzai government falls under anarchy once again.

Unless the American public is willing to support this new government and to not repeat what happened during the Soviet withdrawal, we'll most likely see a return of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. What's worse is that those people, since the fall of the monarchy, have never seen a stable government. A monarchy, a republic, a socialist republic, a communist repressive republic, anarchy, Taliban, interim government, insurgency...Until Afghans are willing to cooperate and learn that they have nothing to fear from our troops, they risk falling into the same situation, though many have admitted that while the Taliban is harsh with sharia law, they prefer it since it brought stability...but at the cost of a horrible human rights record and the harbor for terrorism.
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tk747
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:04 am

The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.
 
Superfly
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:17 am

Quoting tk747 (Reply 4):
The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.

Sad but true.
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.

Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.
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afterburner
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:38 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.

And you don't have any hope at all that one day they will change?
 
Superfly
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:48 am

Quoting afterburner (Reply 6):
And you don't have any hope at all that one day they will change?

Oh absolutely!
I'd love to see a peaceful Afghanistan.
As someone who loves to travel and a geography buff, I'd like to visit their forbidden terrain of steep, jagged edge mountains and caves. I think the area is fascinating geographically.
Just knowing the history of this country and how ruthless things are there, it's best for me to stay far away from this place.
My hope is that there may be a revolution there from within against these terrorist.
I don't see anything remotely close to any such thing happening there.
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover.

First off, that photo is most shocking and displays the cruelty of what the Taliban can and will do to you. That being said, even when the Americans pull out, the Taliban are already on the rise again. In Germany, people are already screaming for the Bundeswehr to get out, and I'm sure that after the Iraq war, there are also many Americans who want the soldiers out. I personally support our mission in Afghanistan, but with recent incidents involving our Army in Kunduz province, and the increasing lack of support from the public opinion, I fear that Germany's mission in Afghanistan is becoming more and more futile. And if we all pull out, the Taliban will take advantage of that, overthrow the Karzai government (which is a weak government and wants to even pardon the Taliban anyway) and become a place of safe harbour for terrorists. Then those men and women who died in Afghanistan will have died for nothing, and that's one thing I fear the most.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:49 am

Quoting tk747 (Reply 4):
The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.

   The US supported the Mujahideen, which were diverse groups of Muslim fighters all fighting the Soviets. After the Russians left, Afghanistan was left with a bunch of warlords. The Taliban began when one of the fighters, Mullah Omar, began taking over many of the other warlords beginning in the mid 1990s until he basically controlled all of Afghanistan.

There were some other ex-Mujahideen who were not defeated by Omar's Taliban and continued fighting them in regions of Afghanistan.

Now fast forward to fall of 2001. The Americans know that the Taliban is working with and harboring Al Qaeda terrorists responsible for 9/11. The CIA had maintained its contacts within the Afghani resistance and within weeks of 9/11 CIA agents with money and supplies were back with the Northern Alliance fighters in Afghanistan. Northern Alliance continued fighting the Taliban and by the end of November the Taliban had been removed from power, with only a few hundred special forces operatives from the coalition.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. It is pretty bad to say, but then again, it is a pretty bad situation. Either way the Soviet war in Afghanistan and takedown of the Taliban in 2001 stand as great coups and testaments to the power of the third option.
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Superfly
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:52 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. It is pretty bad to say, but then again, it is a pretty bad situation. Either way the Soviet war in Afghanistan and takedown of the Taliban in 2001 stand as great coups and testaments to the power of the third option.

I'd say the Taliban is far worse than the Soviets.
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BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:00 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
I'd say the Taliban is far worse than the Soviets.

Well, now, yeah. But back then the Soviets were a far bigger threat, but we took care of it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Well, now, yeah. But back then the Soviets were a far bigger threat, but we took care of it.

....and now Islamic terrorist are an even BIGGER threat.


Thanks a lot Ronnie!   
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Arrow
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

You're joking, right? No, I guess you're not. Don't get me wrong, the soviets shouldn't have been there (and neither should we), but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up. Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets? I mean, it would be a small price to pay, wouldn't it?
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:11 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Don't get me wrong, the soviets shouldn't have been there (and neither should we), but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up. Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets? I mean, it would be a small price to pay, wouldn't it?

Three words: The Cold War. The Americans at that time would support anyone and anything fighting against the Soviet Union. Now, that doesn't make things right, but supporting the Mujahadeen during the Afghanistan war was a logical consequence of the Cold War. A similar logic can be used e.g. for the US funding for Osama Bin Laden at the time of Operation Dessert Storm. The real question is whether they knew that this support could one day bite them in the ass.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
....and now Islamic terrorist are an even BIGGER threat.

On 9/11 the Islamic terrorists killed some 3,000 people. The Soviets could have killed many times that many even faster.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up.

You're missing the point. It isn't what's best for Afghanistan, it's what's best for America. That sounds bad too, but that's the way it is.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets?

Well, you fight over there by proxy to help make sure that doesn't happen. A dead American is a tragedy. A dead Korean / Vietnamese / Afghani is a statistic.

The world really isn't a nice place is it?
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tu204
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:30 am

If the US pulls out of Afghanistan, the exact same thing will happened as after we pulled out of there 21 years ago. The country will collapse into turmoil. Like it or not, but the USA in Afghanistan (now) = the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1980's). Say whatever you want but, we were either both invaders or liberators, whichever way we look at it. We were both the same. One was not an invader and the other a liberator, or the other way around.
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tk747
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:45 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):

Exactly.

I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen). Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:49 am

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen)

Well, American leadership disagreed and took action accordingly.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.

The Soviets didn't care much for America either.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
tk747
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):


The Soviets didn't murder girls for attending girls school either, anyway thats not the point, the point is that no country should be occupying another. America will support any government no matter how brutal it is as long as it advances America's interests and then people wonder why the USA is hated.

[Edited 2010-08-04 22:57:14]
 
MingToo
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:58 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Sad but true.
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

The UK was of course in there funding and training them as well.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.

Not exactly true. It was a considerably better place under the communist aligned government in the 1970s. Women were educated and had far better lives.

There were of course some Islamic fundamentals who didn't like that and wanted to overthrow that government and install an Islamic one. But of course communism was the main 'enemy' back then and so the US government decide to help out the Islamic extremists to goad the Soviets into a war. This happened BEFORE the Soviets entered Afghanistan. It wasn't done to help them remove the Soviets, it was done to drag the Soviets into the conflict.

This has been admitted by Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

Plus the Soviets did not invade. The communist Afghanistan government asked them to assist against the Islamic extremists who were trying to topple the government.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The US supported the Mujahideen, which were diverse groups of Muslim fighters all fighting the Soviets. After the Russians left, Afghanistan was left with a bunch of warlords. The Taliban began when one of the fighters, Mullah Omar, began taking over many of the other warlords beginning in the mid 1990s until he basically controlled all of Afghanistan.

See above.
 
tk747
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:59 am

Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):

I think thats the fundamental difference between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the American occupation. The Soviets were asked by the government to assist whereas no one asked the Americans to come.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:13 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.

So women are getting brutalized by the Taliban while the US is in Afghanistan, and this is proof that... the US should stay in Afghanistan. Huh?
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tu204
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:21 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Well, American leadership disagreed and took action accordingly.

Remind me how that went?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 22):
So women are getting brutalized by the Taliban while the US is in Afghanistan, and this is proof that... the US should stay in Afghanistan. Huh?

It proves that nomatter what you do you are screwed and so are the Afghanis.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
baroque
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:49 am

Quoting tk747 (Reply 21):
Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):

I think thats the fundamental difference between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the American occupation. The Soviets were asked by the government to assist whereas no one asked the Americans to come.

Who was the comic who made the pastiche - "I vas invited"? But it IS a fair point.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):

Exactly.

I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen). Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.

Most measures of the society would suggest the former did a heck of a lot better than the latter. And an empty slogan such as "The Cold War" was not that great an excuse at the time and 30 years later looks like gross myopia, not to mention a tad of cutting off your own nose to spite your face to get back on topic!!
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:52 am

Quoting tk747 (Reply 19):
America will support any government no matter how brutal it is as long as it advances America's interests and then people wonder why the USA is hated.

Well, yeah.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):
See above.

That doesn't change the fact that the US didn't create the Taliban. But maybe I should start giving Jimmy Carter more credit. And if you look around, you could probably find American support for just about any anti-Communist group around the world.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 23):
Remind me how that went?

Well, 9/11 was unquestionably tragic, but the fact is that the 3000 lives lost that day pales in comparison to the death toll of an hour or two of war with the Soviet Union. If (and that definitely is an if) 9/11 was the price we had to pay to help take down the Soviet Union and end the Cold War, I'd honestly have to say that we didn't do so badly all told.

[Edited 2010-08-04 23:55:43]
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MingToo
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:54 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Well, now, yeah. But back then the Soviets were a far bigger threat, but we took care of it.

Even the guy who 'started' the Cold War with his 'telegram from Moscow' realised shortly after that the Soviets were not the expansionist threat that they were being perceived to be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Kennan

The fight against Communist rule and Islamic rule have the same basis. Both are inherently economically nationalistic and resistant to foreign ownership of their assets. That is what the fight is about.

It has little to do with democracy and freedom. Right wing dictators have been not only tolerated by the West but actively supported by them. It is only left wing dictators that get the attention. Along of course with left wing governments. And not just in developing countries.

There are still parliamentary inquires going on in several European countries over 'Operation Gladio' where calndestine operatives were left behind by the US all over Europe to team up with local groups in case of a communist invasion. Over time this turned instead into activities to try to stop any left-leaning governments getting into power in Europe in association with local right-wing groups, even through supporting acts of terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

US/UK foreign policy is quite simple to summarise. You try to move countries up the list:

1. US friendly democracy
2. US friendly dictatorship
3. US unfriendly democracy
4. US unfriendly dictatorship

The primary motivation is not 'democracy' but 'US friendly'. Saudi Arabia would almost certainly go from (2) to (3) given the chance. So it doesn't get the chance.

Try to think of one instance of the US intervening to move a (2) to a (3). I can't. But then why would they do that ? Why would any country ? The US just has a bigger PR department than others.
 
baroque
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
That doesn't change the fact that the US didn't create the Taliban.

No, but the US certainly set up all the preconditions and walked away. Mind one positive, those denigrating the role of the US, probably cannot claim it watched or looked on, at that stage it was not even interested enough to watch. And meanwhile, Pakistan starred at the top of the bombing tables year after year.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
Right wing dictators have been not only tolerated by the West but actively supported by them.

Only because we liked them better than the left wingers. If you fight against people I don't like, I can look past a lot of faults.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
It has little to do with democracy and freedom.

Well, it does. Our democracy and our freedom.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
Over time this turned instead into activities to try to stop any left-leaning governments getting into power in Europe in association with local right-wing groups, even through supporting acts of terrorism.

Ahh, see they would be on our side. That means that they are freedom fighters, not terrorists. I'm pretty sure that the Nazis considered the resistance to be terrorists.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
The primary motivation is not 'democracy' but 'US friendly'.

Well, yeah. That's the whole point.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
But then why would they do that ?

No reason at all. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:12 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
On 9/11 the Islamic terrorists killed some 3,000 people.

....and expect that number to climb.
Let's not forget Ft. Hood, Pan Am 103, London subways, Church bombing in Nigeria, Madrid, Mumbai, Moscow, southern Philippines, I can go on and on.
This Islamic terrorist aren't just targeting America. They have launched a world-wide crusade.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
It isn't what's best for Afghanistan, it's what's best for America. That sounds bad too, but that's the way it is.

...and it's turned out not to be in America's best interest either.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
If the US pulls out of Afghanistan, the exact same thing will happened as after we pulled out of there 21 years ago. The country will collapse into turmoil. Like it or not, but the USA in Afghanistan (now) = the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1980's). Say whatever you want but, we were either both invaders or liberators, whichever way we look at it. We were both the same. One was not an invader and the other a liberator, or the other way around.

  
Well said tu204!

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen). Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.

  
Exactly!
This goes to show that the enemy of your enemy isn't necessarily your friend.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 19):
The Soviets didn't murder girls for attending girls school either, anyway thats not the point, the point is that no country should be occupying another.

Good point. Even under Stalin, people had more freedoms than in fundamentalist Islamic nations.
Of course there a few apologist here that will claim it's only the 'extreme element', religious freedom blah, blah, blah non-sense.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):
The UK was of course in there funding and training them as well.

UK/USA is the same damn thing in terms of international policy.
The UK has had to kiss our a$$ ever since WWII when they lost their standing as a world superpower.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):
Not exactly true. It was a considerably better place under the communist aligned government in the 1970s. Women were educated and had far better lives.

There were of course some Islamic fundamentals who didn't like that and wanted to overthrow that government and install an Islamic one. But of course communism was the main 'enemy' back then and so the US government decide to help out the Islamic extremists to goad the Soviets into a war. This happened BEFORE the Soviets entered Afghanistan. It wasn't done to help them remove the Soviets, it was done to drag the Soviets into the conflict.

This has been admitted by Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser.

Well aware of that. Perhaps I should have worded it differently but there was always that savage element of Islamic extremist in that country that wanted power and a significant chunk of the population willing to go along and accept it.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 21):
The Soviets were asked by the government to assist whereas no one asked the Americans to come.

We had to go there after 9/11.



Has the idea of carpet bombing Afghanistan ever been brought to the table?
Perhaps Afghanistan needs to start over. The results have been extraordinary in Germany and Japan.
Bring back the Concorde
 
tu204
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
Well, 9/11 was unquestionably tragic, but the fact is that the 3000 lives lost that day pales in comparison to the death toll of an hour or two of war with the Soviet Union. If (and that definitely is an if) 9/11 was the price we had to pay to help take down the Soviet Union and end the Cold War, I'd honestly have to say that we didn't do so badly all told.

I, looking from the other side, can tell you that we never actually had any intention of fighting a direct war with the United States, I am sure that you did not either. That would be MAD (forgive the pun). Yes, alot of propaganda, but the ammount of anti-capitalist propaganda here and the ammount of anti-communist propaganda in the US was probably equal. Both the US and the Soviet Union would promote our "friendly" leaders and "friendly" nations.
But, one big BUT - none of the countries/groups/leaders that we supported ever came back to bite us in the ass. When you are supporting any guerrila war or any extremist group, you have to plan a bit ahead and ask a couple "what ifs". Apparently you guys skipped this point, and had to suffer for it down the road, and not just you, but others aswell. Your country's actions almost singe handedly spread Islamic Radicals.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
but the fact is that the 3000 lives lost that day

Why do you not count the lives that your servicemen lost during the whole War on Terror, Afghanistan included?
If you want to get more technical, you can also count the civilian deaths in Afghanistan during Taliban rule, during the current war in Afghanistan and Soviet servicemen that died fighting the same radicals that you are fighting now.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
MingToo
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Only because we liked them better than the left wingers. If you fight against people I don't like, I can look past a lot of faults.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
The primary motivation is not 'democracy' but 'US friendly'.

Well, yeah. That's the whole point.

You are at least honest in your viewpoints on this matter. I have less of a problem with that than those who know what the deal is but try to wrap it up and say it is all about be pink and fluffy and democratic.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Quoting MingToo (Reply 26):
It has little to do with democracy and freedom.

Well, it does. Our democracy and our freedom.

So the Vietnamese are not allowed their freedom to vote for whoever them want, because one day it might affect the freedom of Americans. Which incidentally was not the case. There was no domino effect of communism after the US left Vietnam.

If you are willing to admit that this side of the argument are you also willing to admit that terrorism (whether it is the right thing to do or not) is the blowback resulting from these types of actions suppressing populations of other countries ?
 
BMI727
Posts: 11110
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:27 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
I, looking from the other side, can tell you that we never actually had any intention of fighting a direct war with the United States, I am sure that you did not either. That would be MAD (forgive the pun).

Up until the 1970s, that would be right. But during the last decade and change of the Cold War, a war, completely conventional or otherwise, was an option and a nuclear war could be won.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
Your country's actions almost singe handedly spread Islamic Radicals.

They weren't predisposed to like us anyway, they just played along since we were giving them guns.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
Why do you not count the lives that your servicemen lost during the whole War on Terror, Afghanistan included?

You can count them if you want, we still got off pretty easily considering that American actions in Afghanistan helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
BMI727
Posts: 11110
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:37 am

Quoting MingToo (Reply 31):
There was no domino effect of communism after the US left Vietnam.

No there wasn't, and I'm sure that scholars will get a lot of mileage discussing why. The upshot of all this is that the reason the US fought in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Kuwait was not to protect the freedoms of the Vietnamese, Afghanis, or Kuwaitis. It was to protect American interests.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 31):
If you are willing to admit that this side of the argument are you also willing to admit that terrorism (whether it is the right thing to do or not) is the blowback resulting from these types of actions suppressing populations of other countries ?

I don't know if you could call it a direct blowback, and there were definitely dozens of factors involved. I don't think it can be boiled down to a simple cause and effect relationship of "since the US helped remove the Soviets from Afghanistan and left them without much of a government, terrorists were able to perpetrate 9/11." Osama was really never a friend of the US. What happened in Afghanistan perhaps provided a fertile ground for terrorists to operate, but that isn't to say that they wouldn't have found that elsewhere if the Communists had prevailed in Afghanistan. For that matter, when we took down the Taliban, they just moved to Pakistan, which is mess of its own that happens to have nukes involved too.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
tu204
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:40 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
You can count them if you want, we still got off pretty easily considering that American actions in Afghanistan helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union.

You miss my point: The USSR was never a military threat to the US, only proxy wars here and there. The Islamic Fundementalists that you created ARE a threat to you. They are killing YOUR citizens (thus depriving them of the "freedom to live", if you want to speak about freedom being the greatest thing since Jesus). Tell me, how many US citizens did the USSR kill during the entire cold war? We are not counting Vietnam, you started that mess, all the consequences including deaths of US servicemen fall upon you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
They weren't predisposed to like us anyway, they just played along since we were giving them guns.

And are now using those guns to kill you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
Up until the 1970s, that would be right. But during the last decade and change of the Cold War, a war, completely conventional or otherwise, was an option and a nuclear war could be won.

How do you figure that? The only way a nuclear was could be won is the complete destruction of your enemy's nuclear arsenal and the delivery method. Neither of us could do that to each other. And any attack by the US on the USSR conventional or nuclear would have the consequence of a nuclear strike against the US. Same goes for the reverse.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
propilot83
Posts: 618
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:43 am

Gentlemen, America did not choose to go to war in Afghanistan against the cowardly rats of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. It was a war of necessity, and a lack of foreign policy due on our part. 9/11 occurred because America had its back turned against Afghanistan and said "we dont care about your problems or people or country." What happens if a local Bank does not have security to guard it, it will get robbed right? Same thing here, when America was ignorant to Afghanistan, we got attacked hard back home. It is a disgrace, why do you think a lot of politicians like John McCain went to Afghanistan after 9/11 and apologized to the Afghan people saying 'were sorry we ignored you guys.' Because the oceans no longer protect us, and we have to pay attention to the entire world, because our security is dependent on those countries, Afghanistan was in a state of anarchy, and what happens when there is violence, poverty, and a country with no control of government, terrorism finds its home base there...Al Qaeda. America can never leave Afghanistan until the Afghans themselves get on their own feet and the international community must always have at least a light presence in that country, or else where back to another 9/11 again. Its simple, and clear enough. Afghanistan was not an Iraq situation, we cannot afford another 9/11 or terrorist attack in America or anywhere in the world. I know the history of my beautiful country Afghanistan. And I dont want to hear "America is there to dominate the region" thats all BS, we were there to liberate the people of Afghanistan and give them a better peaceful future and a more safer secure America and international community.
 
MingToo
Posts: 353
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:43 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
Quoting MingToo (Reply 31):
There was no domino effect of communism after the US left Vietnam.

No there wasn't, and I'm sure that scholars will get a lot of mileage discussing why. The upshot of all this is that the reason the US fought in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Kuwait was not to protect the freedoms of the Vietnamese, Afghanis, or Kuwaitis. It was to protect American interests.

And there is a price to pay for protecting those interests. 9/11 is part of that price. If the world had been as globally connected 100 years ago Britain would have paid a similar price for protecting its interests around the world as would France and other European countries.

Do the math and see if you think it is worth it. The costs, like any sort of imperial adventures eventually get out of control. I'd say that point has been reached or will be soon. But at least you seem willing to look at it as a cost-benefit scenario unlike most who are just manipulated into believing that there are Islamist extremists under the bed, just like when then reds were there.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:49 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
They weren't predisposed to like us anyway, they just played along since we were giving them guns.

Knowingly giving guns to people to people that don't like you?
How stupid is that?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
we still got off pretty easily considering that American actions in Afghanistan helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union.

Umm, our servicemen & women in Afghanistan today would strongly disagree.
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own but if you want to assign that credit to our government, it's nothing to be proud of. The fall of the Soviet Union was a terrible thing.
Yes I know that sounds radical but if you think about it, The Soviet Union kept these savage radical Islamic extremist in check. I wish Tajikistan, Kryzikstan and all of those other fmr. Soviet Middle-Eastern rogue nations were under Putin's fist.


The sad thing is that if Afghanistan was a hardcore Communist nation, the US would have dropped a bomb on them already. For what ever reason, the US is afraid to go after a religious state because we are too damn sympathetic to religious whackos.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
Posts: 11110
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:05 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 34):
The USSR was never a military threat to the US, only proxy wars here and there.

They were a military threat. As far as the proxy wars here and there, well that is the beauty of having nuclear weapons.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 34):
How do you figure that? The only way a nuclear was could be won is the complete destruction of your enemy's nuclear arsenal and the delivery method. Neither of us could do that to each other.

Actually, by the 1980s, the possibility of a first decapitation strike became quite real. And furthermore, by that time American thinking was that nuclear weapons would not be the end of the world necessarily, but were just another rung on the ladder of escalation.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 36):
The costs, like any sort of imperial adventures eventually get out of control.

Eventually you do have to put limits on it, but I don't think that giving guns to the Afghanis in the 1980s was outside of those limits.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Knowingly giving guns to people to people that don't like you?
How stupid is that?

Not very stupid considering that they were using said guns to shoot at people who like you even less.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own but if you want to assign that credit to our government, it's nothing to be proud of

Just because no actual shots were exchanged doesn't mean we didn't win the Cold War. A decades long nuclear standoff came to an end and a lot of people are better off today than they were then (of course, that is a side benefit). Sure we might have to put out a fire in one of the Stans from time to time, but I like America better without mushroom clouds. There will probably be more shots fired in the post Cold War world, but none of them will end the world.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:10 am

What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan?

Let India take care of it. They are a very strong power, with a very strong army, good defence forces, even nuclear weapons. Also they are a regional power, only a quick jump across from Pakistan to there.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:12 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
they were using said guns to shoot at people who like you even less.

Not true.
The mujahadeen/taliban hated the Soviets just as much as they hated us or anyone who is not an Islamic radical.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
Just because no actual shots were exchanged doesn't mean we didn't win the Cold War.

You're missing the point.
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own weight.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
I like America better without mushroom clouds.

When was the last mushroom cloud over the USA?
That could still happen if the nukes get in to the wrong hands.
I'd rather the Soviets have then than the Islamic radicals.

[Edited 2010-08-05 01:19:00]
Bring back the Concorde
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:13 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 34):
The USSR was never a military threat to the US, only proxy wars here and there. The Islamic Fundementalists that you created ARE a threat to you.

And the laugh is that if the US thinks that Russia is gone, they will get a big surprise. By and large Russia outguns the US in resources and it will always have a power advantage due to that. Good geologists too the Russians!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own but if you want to assign that credit to our government, it's nothing to be proud of. The fall of the Soviet Union was a terrible thing.

   Good to see that view spreading. The way it was allowed to fall was even more terrible, a real miracle that some even more major mischief did not arise during that period. If the aim was to knock off the Soviet Union, at least it should have been done with a bit more skill and finesse.
 
tu204
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:27 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):

Let India take care of it. They are a very strong power, with a very strong army, good defence forces, even nuclear weapons. Also they are a regional power, only a quick jump across from Pakistan to there.

I doubt that they are stupid enough to go in there after two superpowers went in for 10 years each and did not get too far.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
but I like America better without mushroom clouds

This would have only happened if you guys tried something like this:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
Actually, by the 1980s, the possibility of a first decapitation strike became quite real.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own weight.

Very true, the arms race didn't help too much, but Afghanistan was not that big of a factor. Again, if you want to get technical, the Soviet Union fueling/feeding the Cuban economy over a period of 30 years hit our economy much more than Afghanistan. Not to mention all the other third-world countries that we built up from scratch. Sustaining an imperialistic empire is much more expensive than you think. However the US is learning that the hard way, and for some reason is not making any changes to its policy.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
BMI727
Posts: 11110
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:32 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
The Soviet Union collapsed on it's own weight.

...and America didn't. That's winning.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
That could still happen if the nukes get in to the wrong hands.

I never said it couldn't, but that's why we got to make sure that doesn't happen.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
And the laugh is that if the US thinks that Russia is gone, they will get a big surprise.

They're already on their way back. As nice as winning the Cold War was, it pretty much gutted the defense industry, so a good old fashioned arms race wouldn't be the worst thing.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
I'd rather the Soviets have then than the Islamic radicals

And go back to having poxy wars and crises. I guess that wouldn't be the worst thing, but I don't think that one is inherently better than the other.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MingToo
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
I'd rather the Soviets have then than the Islamic radicals

And go back to having poxy wars and crises. I guess that wouldn't be the worst thing, but I don't think that one is inherently better than the other.

And neither is any different from the US pushing it's agenda onto other countries for the benefit of US corporations.
 
MingToo
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:42 am

An interesting perspective on freedom and democracy from some St Petersburg residents at a party (from a BBC programme by Jonathon Dimbleby a UK political commentator / journalist)

Fast forward to around 3m30 ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogzTIf8zgeo&feature=related
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:50 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
Eventually you do have to put limits on it, but I don't think that giving guns to the Afghanis in the 1980s was outside of those limits.

Really. I wonder what the limits might be in that case.  Wow! Actually, phrasing it as "giving guns to the Afghanis" suggests you completely miss the more awful parts of that. You allowed, nay encouraged, the Wahabbis in to the Pakistani education system, and inevitably, they brought a bunch of Salafis with them.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:53 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
...and America didn't. That's winning.

No, the Soviet Union would have fallen regardless of the arms race.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
I never said it couldn't, but that's why we got to make sure that doesn't happen.

No argument there.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
As nice as winning the Cold War was, it pretty much gutted the defense industry,

So where did a lot of their nukes and other weapons go?
Most likely to people far more dangerous than the Soviets.
That said, there is no reason for you to get excited about the collapse of the Soviet Union.
I think you're going off of dated material. I think you're stuck in the early 1990s. The world has become more dangerous as a result of the fall of the Soviet Union.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
And go back to having poxy wars and crises. I guess that wouldn't be the worst thing, but I don't think that one is inherently better than the other.

..or just not fight at all.
If some countries chose to be Communist, let them.
If some countries chose to be Capitalist, let them.
Simple as that.

Quoting MingToo (Reply 44):
And neither is any different from the US pushing it's agenda onto other countries for the benefit of US corporations.

Correct me if I'm not understanding you.
Are you saying that radical Islamic crusaders are as equally as bad as the US opening business markets and spreading democracy?
Please tell us that is not what you're say.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:54 am

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 35):
9/11 occurred because America had its back turned against Afghanistan and said "we dont care about your problems or people or country." What happens if a local Bank does not have security to guard it, it will get robbed right? Same thing here, when America was ignorant to Afghanistan, we got attacked hard back home.

Fundamentally incorrect, IMHO. The US was not attacked by Afghanistan, we were attacked by radical Muslim eejits who thought their sky daddy wanted them to kill the infidel and bring back the caliphate. True, Afghanistan was a convenient base of operations for said eejits, in part because of the past several decades of US (and USSR, for that matter) foreign policy. But if it wasn't Afghanistan, it would have been Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or even a Western country - they'd just have been a bit more secretive about it.

tl;dr - We're not curbing international terrorism by staying in Afghanistan (though domestic Afghani terrorism is a different issue).
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11110
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:01 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 46):
I wonder what the limits might be in that case.

In that case, having Americans pulling the trigger would have been too far for sure.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
No, the Soviet Union would have fallen regardless of the arms race.

Actually the massive defense spending was part of what precipitated the collapse of the Soviet Union. But, as it stands, there is an America but there is no more Soviet Union. We won, and they spun their wheels for the better part of a decade.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
The world has become more dangerous as a result of the fall of the Soviet Union.

Not really. There are still the little wars to fight and disagreements, but the enemies are probably not as well armed. The worst case scenario, however, is much less scary now than it was during the Cold War.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
Simple as that.

Not if you have oil or something else involved.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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