Sabena332
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Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:15 pm

Hi all,

I noticed that regular gas ("Normal Benzin" in Germany) is dissapearing more and more from gas stations here in Germany. Ok, no wonder, in the last few months it was always as expensive as the slightly better "Super".

The oil companies are inventing more and more premium brands, Aral for example has "Ultimate 100" (or even "Ultimate 102") as their premium brands and Shell has "V-Power 95" and "V-Power Racing" as their premium brands. I also noticed that the "Super Plus" gas is making a comeback since they discontinued "Normal". Now "Super" is the cheapest while "Super Plus" is the gap-filler between the cheapest "Super" and all of the aforementioned premium brands.

Aral even has "Ultimate Diesel" and Shell has "V-Power Diesel".

How is the situation in other countries all over the world? Do these premium brands also displace the cheap regular gas there as well?

Germans, what do you think? Do you fill up your car with the premuim brands?

Patrick
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UAL747
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:20 pm

In the US, at least where I live, we have Regular Unleaded, Super Unleaded, and Premium Unleaded. In Oklahoma, the octane ratings are 97, 98, 99 generally. I believe it varies from state to state. Of course, different gas stations brand the octane ratings differently. Like V-Power (Shell I think).

What I am seeing here are stations that are offering 97 octane, and 97 octane with 10% Ethanol at a cheaper price.

Personally, I don't bother filling my car up with premium. I drive a Mercedes-Benz, but I just don't see the point. I'm not racing the car, in fact, I drive it like a grandma.

UAL
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Kiwirob
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:21 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
V-Power Diesel

good stuff V-Power Diesel, I used it when in Germany earlier this year, I'm sure I felt an improvement in performance, my MINI felt more responsive, economy improved buy approx 50km more from a tank. If Shell sold it in Norway I would buy it.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:25 pm

We still get the standard petrol/diesel along with the premium stuff. Ordinary fuel is 1,40 (euro, that is) a litre here so premium is far too expensive.
 
N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:29 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):


I noticed that regular gas ("Normal Benzin" in Germany) is dissapearing more and more from gas stations here in Germany. Ok, no wonder, in the last few months it was always as expensive as the slightly better "Super".

The weird thing about Germany is that I always saw 2 kinds of 95 (91 in the US, which is the highest you can get here)

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
In Oklahoma, the octane ratings are 97, 98, 99 generally.

What? Since when? Admittedly, Oklahoma is one of like 4 states I haven't been to, but I have never seen a departure from the 87/89/91(2, 3) other than in high altitude places like Amarillo.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):

good stuff V-Power Diesel, I used it when in Germany earlier this year, I'm sure I felt an improvement in performance, my MINI felt more responsive, economy improved buy approx 50km more from a tank. If Shell sold it in Norway I would buy it.

I would guess that the "V-Power" Diesel is ultra-low sulfur, which means more actual hydro-carbons to burn.
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UAL747
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
What? Since when? Admittedly, Oklahoma is one of like 4 states I haven't been to, but I have never seen a departure from the 87/89/91(2, 3) other than in high altitude places like Amarillo.

Oh, sorry, that should be 87, 88, 91. You are right.
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N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:42 pm

BTW, there is a little bit of translating needed. The US uses a different equation than Europe, but it tells the same thing. 95 octane in Europe is 91 in the US. 100 is 95-96 in the US. Indeed, one of the reasons gas is more expensive (not nearly as much of a difference as it used to be though) in Europe is because they only use higher test gas.
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Cadet57
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Personally, I don't bother filling my car up with premium. I drive a Mercedes-Benz, but I just don't see the point. I'm not racing the car, in fact, I drive it like a grandma.

And when your engine gets gunked up, MPG's drop and you start misfiring. Don't wonder why. There is a reason there is a minimum octane rating on the fuel door.
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Flighty
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:46 pm

One thing to keep in mind is 95 European octane is about 90 American octane. So their 98 is roughly our premium 93. Anything bove that should be considered specialty fuel. Even Ferraris run fine on 93 American.
 
N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:47 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Personally, I don't bother filling my car up with premium. I drive a Mercedes-Benz, but I just don't see the point. I'm not racing the car, in fact, I drive it like a grandma.

If the car says 91 required, put 91 in it. I'm surprised you haven't gotten computer induced knock yet. Or maybe you have and don't pay attention.

I do know some BMWs don't require 91, so if your Mercedes also doesn't require it, no problem. If it does, you have likely voided any warranty you have, along with killing your fuel economy and engine power.
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Sabena332
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:50 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Personally, I don't bother filling my car up with premium.

Same here! I tested it but I wasn't satisfied, it felt exactly like the cheaper "Super", so why should I fill my car up with the expensive stuff? (although it is recommended in the manual of my car).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
good stuff V-Power Diesel, I used it when in Germany earlier this year, I'm sure I felt an improvement in performance,

Did you really feel a difference? Maybe it is more noticable with the Diesel stuff?

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 3):
Ordinary fuel is 1,40 (euro, that is) a litre here

Same here, yesterday Super was 1.36 EUR, earlier today it was 1.40 EUR. It is always something around 1.40 EUR.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
The US uses a different equation than Europe, but it tells the same thing. 95 octane in Europe is 91 in the US. 100 is 95-96 in the US.

Interesting, I didn't know that before.

Patrick
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iakobos
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:12 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
Germans, what do you think? Do you fill up your car with the premuim brands?

I am not German so I take a liberty...so-called "premium" brands are little else than an incentive to pay a little bit more.
Pity for them that 95-98-100 are so close to each other already, they would have invented another half a dozen grades to "differentiate" the offer. It is marketing.

In Bulgaria last week I found Super Carrera (98) next to Normal Super (98), at different prices of course.
What's next ? 100 Ferrari turbo super-charged ?

In Greece, gas station employees have been instructed to try to sell the premium 98, most probably in the best interest of the car drivers...   
 
Sabena332
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:24 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 11):
I am not German so I take a liberty

Gladly, you're more than welcome! Of course I didn't want to adress Germans only, sorry!

Quoting iakobos (Reply 11):
It is marketing.

Sure, thus all these fancy names like "Ultimate 102" or "V-Power Racing".

Quoting iakobos (Reply 11):
In Bulgaria last week I found Super Carrera (98) next to Normal Super (98), at different prices of course.
What's next ? 100 Ferrari turbo super-charged ?

  

Quoting iakobos (Reply 11):
In Greece, gas station employees have been instructed to try to sell the premium 98, most probably in the best interest of the car drivers...

You know what is also strange... we have full service stations (with a guy who fills up your car) at all Shells here recently. Of course do these guys recomment the best always, packed in nice sentences like: "You have a great car, it surely needs the best, eh?" while having the V-Power Racing nozzle in his hand already.

Patrick
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Kent350787
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:44 pm

Standard fuel here in Australia is 91 octane (!) and its awful! It's being phased out and replaced by E10 - upping the octane rating but reducing the volumetric efficiency. As there is a price difference of up to 20% between standard and premuium fuels, standard is still the volume seller.
 
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:08 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
Do these premium brands also displace the cheap regular gas there as well?

I do not care at present, as some two years ago, my doctor stopped my car driving. But I still remember the year when I had just purchased my first car going on "unleaded" and planning a travel trip to the U.K. where everything was still leaded, and I frankly got a bit panicked. But then, Prince Charles rushed forward and made some big speaches in favour of unleaded petrol, and established a "movement" supporting "unleaded petrol" and when I arrived on my holidays in Britain, there were petrol stations here and there. The great Prince of Wales had saved me from trouble !! It was a small step for him, but a big thing for me ! Comparable to Edward Heath. I back in 1970 started to plan a stay in the UK to learn English. The only thing which gave me headaches was the currency with that 1:20:12 system of pound, shilling and pennies ! Right in time for me, Teddy Heath changed the old currency system into the present 1 pound to 100 pence system . You may now guess which two political figures of Great Britain are most appreciated by me ?!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:32 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
How is the situation in other countries all over the world? Do these premium brands also displace the cheap regular gas there as well?

Not necessarily replace, but even supermarket gas stations like Tesco, Makro or Globus now offer "premium" gasolines.

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 10):
Did you really feel a difference? Maybe it is more noticable with the Diesel stuff?

I don't know, I refuel the ordinary stuff. I think it's partly placebo effect and partly a marketing scam and as a matter of principle I refuse to pay for fuel more than absolutely necessary.
Shell had a pretty nasty scandal here not a long time ago, when one of the major dailies tested in labs all these "miraculous" fuels and Shell V-Power Diesel ended up last with a verdict that it is simply an ordinary, average at best diesel fuel. The scandalous discovery was, that it lacks the GTL component despite being advertised as such.

[Edited 2010-08-16 16:33:41]
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:28 am

We had a gas company that dispensed regular, premium, and ultra with octane between 89, 91, and 93.

Nowadays we have only two choices for the unleaded type and one diesel type. There are even some gas stations that offer regular gasoline only, but these are the independent brands, which I don't trust. I'd rather fill my car's tank with Texaco or Shell gasoline.
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Cadet57
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:37 am

Quoting iakobos (Reply 11):
.so-called "premium" brands are little else than an incentive to pay a little bit more.

Not really. In the US at least. My turbocharged VW recommends a minimum of 91 octane. When I first bought the car I was being cheap and figured there was no big difference. Turns out when I went thru a coil pack and a misfire and when I had to replace my spark plugs about 15k early, there was. I've been running 93 octane ever since without a problem.
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Flighty
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:03 am

Yes turbocharged cars set for premium can only run happily on prem fuel. They will "limp" on regular fuel thanks to computer knock detection. But they only run so in a constant state of stress. If the knock sensor fails you can lose pistons - it happened to a Cadillac SRX tester this year. It applied boost as if it had premium fuel, which it didn't, and the undetected knock blew the motor. Sometimes they really do expect you to use premium, most especially high pressure turbo cars so labeled. It's very easy to feel their roughness and lack of power when running regular.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:22 am

What was called "premium" in the OP mind was what I would call "designer gas", with a fancy name. The octane rating is not a lie. But in the US you call high octane gas "premium", hence the confusion.

Designer gas (or gasoil) is useless, and I even heard that when a gas station has both fancy and normal gas/diesel, both tanks are filled with the same stuff.

Also, keep in mind regulations on quality are harsher and harsher so even the cheapest gas is of high quality. Low sulfur is mandatory, etc. Water content must also be avoided especially for diesel, the ultra high pressure injectors of modern diesels are killed very quickly by it.

Here in France we have unleaded 95, unleaded 98 (sometimes called super 98) and gasoil (diesel fuel). Unleaded 95 is now in fact E10. My car only needs 95, but being from 2002 I'm not sure the engine can take ethanol without problems, and E10 is usually like 1-2 eurocent cheaper than 98 so I don't bother and take the 98. Never designer gas.

That E10 thing is really a good scam, BTW.

Now about 100 or 102 octane, that's almost nonexistent here but more common in Germany and Switzerland, can be useful if you have a nice engine and bring your car on a track (the only pumps in France are near tracks).

On a side note and because we're on airliners, what is also disappearing is 100LL for GA planes. The engine makers need to follow the lead of Rotax and their engines that can be run on automotive gas. Moreover, that's cheaper, and greener.
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N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):

Designer gas (or gasoil) is useless, and I even heard that when a gas station has both fancy and normal gas/diesel, both tanks are filled with the same stuff.

Some people like the detergents, some don't. GM Vortec truck engines had a hell of a time with Chevron's Techron additive in the late-1990s.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):

That E10 thing is really a good scam, BTW.

Actually, it isn't a scam. E10 is standard in California and has been for several years, after it was discovered that MTBE (the additive that replaced lead) was leaching harmful levels of manganese into ground water. Since ethanol is just basic alcohol, there aren't the environmental concerns. On the other hand, you really shouldn't worry about running your car on it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
On a side note and because we're on airliners, what is also disappearing is 100LL for GA planes. The engine makers need to follow the lead of Rotax and their engines that can be run on automotive gas. Moreover, that's cheaper, and greener.

Yes. This has been a long time coming. As are the diesel engined GA aircraft that can run on regular diesel or jet fuel (which is basically diesel).
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Aesma
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Actually, it isn't a scam. E10 is standard in California and has been for several years, after it was discovered that MTBE (the additive that replaced lead) was leaching harmful levels of manganese into ground water. Since ethanol is just basic alcohol, there aren't the environmental concerns. On the other hand, you really shouldn't worry about running your car on it.

The scam is that ethanol should not be taxed, and cheaper anyway than petrol (less energy in it, meaning less mileage), so E10 should be significantly cheaper than before, not the other way around. If I wanted I also could blend 98 and E85, it is available at some stations including one very close to home. E85 is far cheaper than regular gas.

And I worry about the fuel lines and the valves of my car, which may or may not like ethanol. I found contradictory statements about it, so I play it safe. I don't drive much anyway, I'll drive it to the ground.
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MingToo
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:10 am

This could be a consequence of the increasing take up of diesel.

If you want economy, then you go with diesel. If you want performance then you go with gasoline. So as more and more people go towards diesel you are left with a natural premium market for gasoline where those that would have opted for the cheapest gasoline now use diesel.
 
N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:18 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):

The scam is that ethanol should not be taxed, and cheaper anyway than petrol (less energy in it, meaning less mileage), so E10 should be significantly cheaper than before, not the other way around.

There really isn't a difference with E10, because it isn't any real difference from MTBE.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):

And I worry about the fuel lines and the valves of my car, which may or may not like ethanol.

All I know is that my car, which is 4 years older than yours and a high performance car, has had no problems since the changeover.
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flanker
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:40 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Personally, I don't bother filling my car up with premium. I drive a Mercedes-Benz, but I just don't see the point. I'm not racing the car, in fact, I drive it like a grandma.

That would all be well in a 1990 dodge, but the ECU in your Merc is probably written specifically with 93 octane at least. (which is premium), unless its older non computerized.

You can run cheaper, but your timing/fuel/air is going to be off. It is best to put in the recommended

My 01 A4 required at least 91 rating. However, my ECU was flashed for 93 as I had GIAC 1.3 bar file on there. The whole map was changed and it would have run like shit if i put in anything lower.

Same goes for all performance vehicles.

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
How is the situation in other countries all over the world? Do these premium brands also displace the cheap regular gas there as well?

Here it varies by states. In Illinois we have 87-89-91-93 and of course the higher ratings which some people use for the track. For instance SHELL V POWER is 93 octane rating.
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flanker
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
there aren't the environmental concerns

Except that the energy required to make it is 2:1. thats so environmental! Its like buying a prius!
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LTU932
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:01 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

If Benzin costs the same as Super Bleifrei, then I don't see a reason why regular petrol should stick around.

In Costa Rica (though I don't know what octane factor petrol has down there), we only filled our car with premium or Super. Regular is not that good, plus people always suspect that it's not clean in terms of FOD (some say it contains little stones or even sand, which could damage the engine). What did piss me off is that they want to impose petrol that has ethanol across the board. Instead of giving people the choice, they wanted to impose I believe Ethanol 25 or so. I don't know if they still want to impose it (if, then probably just Ethanol 10), but imposing ethanol is simply wrong.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:12 pm

My car is optimized for 98 octane (European reading). So I avoid Aral and Shell, as they do not offer the proper fuel. I'd feel bad to pay for 100 octane when the engine cannot translate it into more power.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:21 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
What was called "premium" in the OP mind was what I would call "designer gas", with a fancy name.

Not really. It's just how the different stations differentiate the different octanes. Nothing designer about it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
But in the US you call high octane gas "premium", hence the confusion.

You seem to be the only one confused. I've always known 93 octane gas to be the "premium" gas. So does everyone else I know.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 27):
I'd feel bad to pay for 100 octane when the engine cannot translate it into more power.

Same. my car says 91, but 91 is next to impossible to find here so I put in 93. Even thou its the most expensive, at least I know its getting more than the minimum required.
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Starbuk7
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:40 pm

I have a Dodge Ram 1500 with the Hemi engine and it recommends that I use the 89 octane gas, so that is the only gas that I have used in it. Have never had a problem with the engine so far.
 
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:48 pm

In South Africa, the octane ratings for regular unleaded, super etc. are different depending on the location - in Gauteng province (Johannesburg) it is at a high altitude, so the octane is different to KwaZulu Natal (Durban) on the coast at sea level.
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N1120A
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:22 am

Quoting flanker (Reply 25):

Except that the energy required to make it is 2:1. thats so environmental! Its like buying a prius!

Only if you focus on idiot versions of ethanol like virgin corn.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 28):

Same. my car says 91, but 91 is next to impossible to find here so I put in 93. Even thou its the most expensive, at least I know its getting more than the minimum required.

Actually, 91 generally isn't less expensive. It depends on the level of oxygenation and differences in local fuel. 91 is the standard for premium here in L.A., but New Orleans only had 93.
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idealstandard
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:04 am

Its not displacing it I don't think. I spend a lot of time in Germany and I never struggle to find regular 95.

I drive a diesel and always fill it with BP ultimate or ARAL super when in Germany/Italy.

I find it gives me about 580 miles to a tank instead of 520ish on regular diesel and it also has injector cleaner in the fuel so I don't need to add any additives to keep the engine healthy  

Worth the extra 5 quid a tank.

IS
 
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:12 am

I don't put anything less than 98 in my car. I'd appreciate it if it was made mandatory to have 98 or higher here so I could buy it everywhere.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:20 am

Quoting MingToo (Reply 22):
If you want economy, then you go with diesel. If you want performance then you go with gasoline. So as more and more people go towards diesel you are left with a natural premium market for gasoline where those that would have opted for the cheapest gasoline now use diesel.

Not true anymore there are now a lot of performance diesels, BMW, Audi, Mercedes all make them, you can even buy a diesel Porsche. For instance the BMW 335D is a fine performance saloon and a much better buy than the 335i. Audi has showen a V12 TDi engine in the R8/10, diesel Seats have dominated the WTCC, Audi and Peugeot have won the last 5 Le Mans in diesel powered prototypes.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:58 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Actually, 91 generally isn't less expensive.

I was referring to the difference between 87 and 93. Then again, its only about 15-20 cents more. I also realize that 91 takes the place of 93, especially out west, hence why I said:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 28):
but 91 is next to impossible to find here
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A342
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:58 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
I would guess that the "V-Power" Diesel is ultra-low sulfur

As mentioned, all Diesel fuels in Europe have been ULSD by default for quite a few years now.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
So their 98 is roughly our premium 93. Anything above that should be considered specialty fuel. Even Ferraris run fine on 93 American.

Correct, anything above that level is useless for factory-spec cars.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Now about 100 or 102 octane, that's almost nonexistent here but more common in Germany and Switzerland, can be useful if you have a nice engine and bring your car on a track (the only pumps in France are near tracks).

See above, it's unneeded. Even a Bugatti Veyron is designed to run on 98 octane gas (93 in the USA). The only instance where 100 or 102 octane gas does bring benefits might be in some after-market tuned cars, but even all of those I've seen so far only require 98 octane. In order to put 102 octane to good use, the compression ratio or forced induction pressure would have to be ridiculously high.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 27):
My car is optimized for 98 octane (European reading). So I avoid Aral and Shell, as they do not offer the proper fuel. I'd feel bad to pay for 100 octane when the engine cannot translate it into more power.

Which car, may I ask? Many engines produce only a little bit of extra power with 98 instead of 95, and some manufacturer recommendations reflect that. And with the phase-out of regular 91, Aral is also getting rid of Ultimate 100 and, as the thread starter has mentioned, is (re)introducing 98 Super Plus and Ultimate 102.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 32):
I drive a diesel and always fill it with BP ultimate or ARAL super when in Germany/Italy.

I find it gives me about 580 miles to a tank instead of 520ish on regular diesel and it also has injector cleaner in the fuel so I don't need to add any additives to keep the engine healthy

Worth the extra 5 quid a tank.

All fuel grades in Europe nowadays have the necessary additives, no need to pour anything else into your tank or buy more expensive fuel. I also speculate that the mileage increase is a placebo effect.

Premium diesel fuels as well as V-Power 95 are ABSOLUTELY useless.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 33):
I don't put anything less than 98 in my car.

Again, may I ask which type?


Just to add to the confusion a little bit: In Romania, Petrom offers 99 octane fuel as their highest grade.

A342
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
If the car says 91 required, put 91 in it. I'm surprised you haven't gotten computer induced knock yet. Or maybe you have and don't pay attention.

It wouldn't be computer induced. It would be the computer retarding the timing to keep it from knocking. The knock sensor would be picking up the noise and the computer would retard the timing

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 10):
Same here! I tested it but I wasn't satisfied, it felt exactly like the cheaper "Super", so why should I fill my car up with the expensive stuff? (although it is recommended in the manual of my car).

Here is the deal with high octane fuels everywhere. How they are branded and how the octane is measured doesn't matter because the engine's compression ration is what makes the octane rating important.

A gasoline engine has a bottom dead center, where the piston is at its full travel downward. It also has a top dead center, which is the full travel going up. The piston does not go all the way to the top of the cylinder, it gets close. There must be room either in the cylinder, or in the head, to have a combution chamber. That small amount of area left at top dead center compared to the area at bottom dead center creates the compression ratio. The higher the compression ratio the higher the octane rquired for proper operation. Lets say an engine has a ratio of 8:1 that is fairly common and that engine requires lower (87) octane gas. An engine with 11:1 compression would require higher (93) octane. The reason for this is that lower octane fuel is more volitale. If low octane gas will begin to combust on its own before the sparkplug lights it because it was squeezed too tight. This creates the spark knock and reduction in power. It also isn't good on the pistons. High octane resists burning at higher pressures and will not burn until the spark plug lights it. The reason high octane can give more power is because it allows the higher compression engine to operate correctly, the fuel doesn't burn until it is supposed to. Putting high octane fuel into a low compression engine doesn't do anything. Engines have increased their compression for years. Back in the 1930s a lot of cars were running 5:1, and they run just fine on today's gasoline. My 1915 Fairbanks-Morse engine runs just fine on 87 octane, which is far more than it needs because back in 1915 gasoline was around 20-25 octane. Today's cars have very good ignition systems that can retard the timing whe poor grades of fueld are used. That is why a lot of people don't notice. Back in the days before electronic igition it was VERY noticable. I once had a 1972 Cadillac with a 10.5:1 compression ratio. It required at least 91 octane. If you put in 87 it would knock like crazy because there was no electronic system to retard the timing, the vacuum advance wasn't made to resond to knock. Even if you don't drive like a hot rodder and you have an engine that requires high octane fuel you are reducing its operating effiecency by not running higher octane fuel in it. You are also straining it when you are using it in high load conditions, such as accelerating up hill, towing, passing, or full passenger/cargo load.

In the US a lot of the advertising for premium fuel is BS. If you watch the ads on TV you will see fine print telling you that the benefits for premium fuels are for those vehicles that require it.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:35 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 37):
It wouldn't be computer induced. It would be the computer retarding the timing to keep it from knocking. The knock sensor would be picking up the noise and the computer would retard the timin

Sure, but im still surprised he hasnt seen a CEL because of it either from a misfire or a fuel related problem.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:09 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 38):
Sure, but im still surprised he hasnt seen a CEL because of it either from a misfire or a fuel related problem.

So am I. I would think that a misfire would have been detected by now. Unless that system is very good at ignition timing managment. I have seen modern computer systems do some neat stuff. I once saw a Dodge with the timing chain installed two teeth off that ran very well, considering. Back in the good ole' days it would have run a horrible, if at all. The guy brought it in after changing the chain himself and having reduced performance.

On the subject of compression. I have seen engines that are so carboned up, (usually low milage cars driven very short distances) that the amount of carbon on the piston and in the combustion chamber have reduced the distance at TDC and effectivly raised the compression. Now you have a car that once ran ok on regular gas that now requires premium. A good carbon treatmeant (water through the intake to steam clean the combustion chamber in a very measured amount) later and the engine runs as good as new.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:19 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 39):
So am I. I would think that a misfire would have been detected by now.

Yeah like I said, even my lowly VW let me know that 87 was not working with the car.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:31 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
Do these premium brands also displace the cheap regular gas there as well?

I'm a bit    here; are you saying that 'regular' gas is being replaced by premium gasoline?

Here in The States, as mentioned by several other posters, that's never been the case.

Although, the definition changed somewhat over time. Asks anyone over 40 in the U.S. what Regular gas used to mean; they would respond by stating that was standard/regular-grade LEADED gas (which had an octane rating of 89 at the time), which lingered around until the late-80s... very early-90s at the latest. After that, most people referred viewed/referred to Unleaded Regular (87) as simply Regular gas.

With all leaded gasoline grades discontinued, most stations (Sunoco (which sold multiple grades) being the primary exception) introduced a mid-grade unleaded (at 89 octane) that filled in the octane grade void and still allowed them to sell 3 grades of gasoline.

Leaded Premium (which in most places, carried an octane rating of 94) started disappearing from U.S. gas stations in the early-80s and was replaced by Unleaded Premium (which had octane ratings ranging from 90+ to 92).

As time progressed, the octane for Unleaded Premium, in most stations, increased to 92 or 93; Sunoco's Ultra was up to 94 (it used to be called Sunoco Ultra 94).

Now, at least in the East Coast, just about every station's Premium (unleaded) carries an octane rating of 93; Sunoco downgraded its Ultra blend to 93 a few years ago.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 37):
If you watch the ads on TV you will see fine print telling you that the benefits for premium fuels are for those vehicles that require it.

Mainly I agree with that 100% However... I have this 4 cyl carburated boat. It stumbles quite a lot when first started. It also has "drivability" issues when you engage forward gear (dying, surging). Premium makes the engine tolerate knock much better, making it much smoother around idle. This is a 3.0 liter 4 with low compression. Premium shouldn't help, but it really does. FWIW
 
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 35):
I was referring to the difference between 87 and 93. Then again, its only about 15-20 cents more. I also realize that 91 takes the place of 93, especially out west, hence why I said:

I thought you meant the difference in price was 91 to 93.

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
Even a Bugatti Veyron is designed to run on 98 octane gas (93 in the USA).

I wonder how the people tooling around in that beast here in L.A. fuel their cars?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
Although, the definition changed somewhat over time. Asks anyone over 40 in the U.S. what Regular gas used to mean; they would respond by stating that was standard/regular-grade LEADED gas (which had an octane rating of 89 at the time), which lingered around until the late-80s... very early-90s at the latest. After that, most people referred viewed/referred to Unleaded Regular (87) as simply Regular gas.

I'm under 40 and still remember regular as leaded, and CA dumped leaded before other places.

Incidentally, it used to be 92 here in CA. It became 91 sometime in the mid-1990s I think.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:53 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
I thought you meant the difference in price was 91 to 93.

Well, you thought incorrectly.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
I have this 4 cyl carburated boat. It stumbles quite a lot when first started. It also has "drivability" issues when you engage forward gear (dying, surging).

That sounds more like a carb issue. I work on Mercruiser I/Os sometimes and that is a classic carb problem. I have seen shift interupter issues that cause boats to stall when shifting to foward, my 73 Searay had that problem. Also can be a choke problem.


Another thing on the octane rating in the USA. In higher altitudes you will have different requirements. In high altitude areas 85 octane will be an ok substitue for 87 octane. You will see 85 in a high altitude area, but will not see it in a place like St. Louis.
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A342
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
wonder how the people tooling around in that beast here in L.A. fuel their cars?

No 93+ octane fuel available over there?!?

Having said that, like most high-performance cars, it can also run on 91 octane gas, but will not produce full power.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
No 93+ octane fuel available over there?!?

Having said that, like most high-performance cars, it can also run on 91 octane gas, but will not produce full power.

I live in L.A., and generally I only see 87/89/91 octane gas (I have an Audi that requires 91, so that's what I fill up with). Having said that, California requires a unique gas mix due to emissions requirements. I have no idea if that affects whether or not 93 is offered here.
 
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:42 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
No 93+ octane fuel available over there?!?


93 is around at every filling station in Detroit and St. Louis, two cities where I spend a lot of time. If you want 100 and 110 leaded racing fuel (off road use only   you can find that at some stations. Don't use leaded gas in a fuel injected engine as the lead will kill your O2 sensors. If you can get AV gasoline that works great in old cars and trucks (non catalyst/non fuel injected), that lead is perfect for my unrebuilt 1947 Farmall tractor.
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RE: Regular Gas To Dissapear In Germany?

Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:52 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Premium shouldn't help, but it really does. FWIW

It has a better burn, of course it will help.
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