ozglobal
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:26 am

Australia has been blessed to have avoided the crisis pretty much, the only OECD nation to do so, and not to have had a recession for 20 years. However, this latest distinction, far from being based on the economic genius of leaders of government and business, is rather just the good timing of China deciding it was time to buy much of the minerals and gas Australia happens to sit on. "Dig it up and ship it out." the customer is ready. No genius. The country's second industry, "Education", depends almost entirely on China and India. Of course, once made into a business, education long ago became "Training". Finally, there is tourism. Clearly, it is better to make money than lose it on such sectors, but it begs the question, blessed with youth, rich mineral and energy resouces ( 2nd in uranium, 1st in gas, certain amount of hydro and open ended solar possibilities), education and and endless line of people wanting to immigrate, why we can't create more value through other secondary and tertiary industries, why we fear running out of resources and being over populated when we have a country the size of the continental United States with a population only 8% the size. Admittedly, ours is largely arid, but a huge amount is also fertile.

So in this current election campaign, we should be hearing about, free from the shackles of crisis facing most of the developed world, how parties would stimulate local development of new value creating sectors, how we adapt education accordingly, how we reform health care to meet the burden of the baby boomers and the stresses it is under and how we leverage immigration and improved local birth rate economically and socially.

Instead, the campaign has become an unsightly, dumbed down squabble about Fox News like sound bites on immigration, the 'boat people', keeping them out, when they represent only one percent of the 400 000 plus immigrants last year. Days of debate are devoted to the various flavors of off shore camp solutions and this is meant to be the differentiator for the electorate!

Americans deserve all they get for their uncanny ability to be convinced of anything by a bit of fear, ignorance and popularism, but my counrtymen deserve every bit as much scorn for being a so borishly redneck as to have allowed the national election to be conducted on this purile basis. I'm embarrassed.

Any thoughts?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tk747
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:56 am

Without China our economy would be down the crapper, it has absolutely nothing to do with the way the government in power manages it. I don't know who I will be voting for tomorrow, Liberal and Labor have pretty much turned into the same party with virtually the same policies, i'll have to vote for the one I dislike less, which is in a terrible position to be in. I find myself supporting Labor not because of any of their policies but because the thought of Tony Abbott in power scares me more than having Julia Gillard in power.

I don't like the way that both of the major parties have demonised refugees and "boat people", surely Australians can't be this racist. It seems that politics in this country is a mess, no wonder Australians are so apolitical.

[Edited 2010-08-20 03:00:07]
 
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cpd
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:03 am

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
but my counrtymen deserve every bit as much scorn for being a so borishly redneck as to have allowed the national election to be conducted on this purile basis. I'm embarrassed.

I have to agree with you there. I've been quite embarrassed by the dumbed-down political debate, absolutely disgusting scare-mongering on issues of all kinds, including the trumped up and blown out of proportion boat-people debate.

It's the scare campaign you have when you haven't got anything else to run on.

I'm also disgusted by these town-hall question and answer forums. These people are almost never undecided voters. One of them in the first session in Western Sydney was caught out as a declared "Young Liberal" member, and the son of a SA Liberal party member. That's not an undecided voter. And the questions were all suspiciously well informed - including trotting out the propaganda lines of each respective party, and also the numerous Dorothy Dixers.

I cannot say who I'll vote for, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do so - but I will say it has been the most disappointing negative election campaign I've ever seen. You couldn't propose big ideas anyway - because the other side would chop them down as vote buying, and would block them in the Senate (assuming they remained in opposition or vice-versa) just for the sake of it.

We are in an age where the politicians don't care about us - they care about doing the minimum to get elected into government, or at the very least, to stay in Parliament and live the good life.

About the best reporting we've had from the media has been on ABC News 24, the new 24 hour news channel. All the reports without the spin from the big media moguls. And, some refreshingly blunt assessments from of the guest commentators that were right on the mark.

If I see another opinion poll, I'm going to explode!   

[Edited 2010-08-20 03:13:12]

[Edited 2010-08-20 03:22:32]
 
TheCommodore
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:32 am

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
However, this latest distinction, far from being based on the economic genius of leaders of government and business,

Beg to differ ! Having been left with 58 billion in the bank after the Howard era left us in a VERY good position to deal with this crises

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
is rather just the good timing of China deciding it was time to buy much of the minerals and gas Australia happens to sit on. "Dig it up and ship it out." the customer is ready. No genius



Um, they were buying up big time well before the crisis even began ?

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
but a huge amount is also fertile.

Not nearly as much as you think.

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
but my counrtymen deserve every bit as much scorn for being a so borishly redneck as to have allowed the national election to be conducted on this purile basis. I'm embarrassed.

This is not the first time an election has been like this. Remember the last Keating election, full of lies and deception.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 1):
Julia Gillard in power.

Oh yes, the women who wasted millions and millions on school tuck shops and Library's.... Made many a builder a multi millionaire   

Quoting tk747 (Reply 1):
Australians can't be this racist.

Not sure if it racists, or this overwhelming feeling of being scared, because we don't know who is entering the country through "back door measures"
A feeling made all the more understandable by the world we live in !

Quoting cpd (Reply 2):
I'm forced to choose the lesser of two evils,

Your not forced to do anything !

Walk into the polling station, register, and walk out again. No one is forcing you to do anything. That way, you can say you had nothing to do with any of it .
  

[Edited 2010-08-20 03:40:45]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ozglobal
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Um, they were buying up big time well before the crisis even began ?

Uhm, all economic commentators agree this factor is what insulated Oz from this crisis due to ongoing and increasing deals.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ltbewr
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:04 am

It appears that Australia is facing the same disease that the USA has as to politics. Only 2 real parties, little difference between them, more about bashing each other than debating real issues facing our countries. This has been further compounded by 24/7 news media, the internet and growing enviromental, economic, immigration, taxation and other issues. Third parties seem to be no real factor but to maybe shift some parties views on some minor subjects. I hope we all figure out how to get reasoned, centeist governments with true leadership to deal with the critical issues of our day.
 
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cpd
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Your not forced to do anything !

Of course I am. I have to choose the lesser of two evils, to ensure the worst one doesn't get into power.

And no, I'm not going to do the Mark Latham style donkey vote. And what exactly did he bring to this election campaign masquerading as a journalist? Anyone with two-cents for a brain could see what his motives were, and it wasn't journalism.

I found Laurie Oakes' comments when asked how much damage Latham would do to the Labor party quite refreshing, when he pondered how much damage it would do to the reputation of the Nine Network. And from there it went, seemingly days of childish tit for tat insults between Latham, Oakes, and anyone who dared enter the fray. Even "The Chaser" kiddies tried their luck against Latham but quickly departed, licking their wounds after his vicious retort "why don't you go tease some dieing children" or something to that effect.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
, or this overwhelming feeling of being scared

Scared of what? There is nothing to be scared about - the scare is the spin that is being manufactured by the political parties and their friends within the mainstream commercial media. It's basically a non-issue. The boat-people are not the problem - it's the people arriving by jets (aka "jet-people") who overstay their visas, or falsify their documents. But you won't see them - because they don't arrive on dangerous looking boats, they can't easily be photographed - they look like you or me, and they just don't resonate as campaign tactic.

As I said before, the boat-people scare is the campaign you have, when you've got nothing else to say for yourself. Oh, and the new Federal Liberal party members of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Kevin - never minding the hatchet jobs they did on Brogden, Debnam, Chikarovski, Downer, Nelson, Turnbull, etc. The hypocrisy of it all. Ridiculous and shallow spin, all of it. And if Abbott doesn't win, his head will be the next one on the Liberal party chopping block - and then they'll try and get someone else warm the seat for a few years. And the problem is, there aren't too many people left in that party who have much experience about anything.

I live and breath politics all day, every day (have done for a long time now) - so I'm pretty cynical of it all - and I question everything written in the media. I only wish everyone else would too. I see some people saying, "oh I don't know much about politics, but I'll read the newspapers and listen to the TV and make up my mind who to vote for" - that's the kind of comment that scares me.

Unfortunately - you don't get to read much about the few good politicians that are about. There are some around that do still genuinely care about what they are doing, but they are far and few between, and clouded by the usual loud-mouthed political suspects on the news.

And don't get me started on that über-young Liberal Party candidate in Queensland... He is what, 19 or 20 years old? How can he have any knowledge on Public Administration, or anything of use that a Politician needs to know at such a young age? You simply don't learn those things in 1 year out of school, it is years of knowledge that you accumulate through practical experience. You can't learn it in schools or universities.

You start off as a low-grade, and work your way up, gaining knowledge as you go. You don't just go in at the top. It doesn't work that way, and most of all, it'll end in tears for the young kid. And he is still just a kid almost. He'll be eaten up and torn to pieces in the Piranha pit of politics.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
It appears that Australia is facing the same disease that the USA has as to politics. Only 2 real parties, little difference between them, more about bashing each other than debating real issues facing our countries. This has been further compounded by 24/7 news media, the internet and growing enviromental, economic, immigration, taxation and other issues. Third parties seem to be no real factor but to maybe shift some parties views on some minor subjects. I hope we all figure out how to get reasoned, centeist governments with true leadership to deal with the critical issues of our day.

You are absolutely right. I blame the media and opinion polling companies for some of it, because we are seeing irrational attachment to opinion polls (which are never that reliable in the first place) and focus groups, rather than visionary policies and real nation building initiatives. If the current lot were around in the old days, we wouldn't have roads or railways, let alone airports. Crossing the Sydney Harbour would be done in boats, because the bridge and tunnels we have now would never have been built.

The current lot on both sides of politics would prefer to fiddle while Rome burns.

The chiefs of staff and press-secretaries need to have some backbone and not run to the whims of the media and pollsters so often. Yes, there are some brilliant people there with lots of knowledge among the staffers - but what are they doing?

I also think the Abbott factor has come into play too. He's running a campaign of NO NO NO on everything, and he's single-handedly blocking every policy he can block just to be destructive. That sort of spins things around a bit, and forces everyone to act in a different way. If you don't sling mud yourself, you'll get buried in it.

They should have asked the Governor-General to invoke Section 57 of the Constitution and dissolve the Lower House and Senate and issue writs for an election in which every seat in the Parliament is contested, or what is also more commonly known as a double-dissolution election. That's what I'd have done. Ran that election on climate-change policy. It was a winner in general public opinion.

And if the bill got rejected again, the GG can convene a joint sitting of both the upper and lower houses and have it passed (or rejected) that way.

[Edited 2010-08-20 04:42:47]
 
Danny
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:31 am

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
Australia has been blessed to have avoided the crisis pretty much, the only OECD nation to do so

Poland is OECD member too  
 
TheCommodore
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:31 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 4):
Uhm, all economic commentators agree this factor is what insulated Oz from this crisis due to ongoing and increasing deals.

Yes, but they were still buying well before the crisis hit us, sure it helped us through it faster than say most other nations. but as I said we had, and i say HAD in big letters (Not any more, thanks to labors wastefulness) plenty of cash in the back to help out too !!

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
Scared of what?

The fear that the world lives under from day to day

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
it's the people arriving by jets (aka "jet-people")

They have already be identified by the authorities in order to have been granted a visa to enter the country in the first place.

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
because they don't arrive on dangerous looking boats,

I don't think its the boat that are the problem, its the unidentified people on board that maybe a worry. Tell me, if they have nothing to hide, why then do they throw all there documentation away ? Ive never been able to work the one out !

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
You start off as a low-grade, and work your way up, gaining knowledge as you go. You don't just go in at the top. It doesn't work that way, and most of all, it'll end in tears for the young kid. And he is still just a kid almost. He'll be eaten up and torn to pieces in the Piranha pit of politics.

Agree with you there, that's for sure.

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
never minding the hatchet jobs they did on Brogden, Debnam, Chikarovski, Downer, Nelson, Turnbull, etc.

Don't forget the otherside were at it to....Crean Hawke Keating Hayden.... and Latham, God I hate saying that name !!
 

Anyway, good luck tomorrow voting, remember no one is forcing you to do anything
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
offloaded
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:46 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
He is what, 19 or 20 years old?



So if I'm reading things correctly, you are legally required to vote, but you only have to go to the polling station and register, but not actually cast a balot ? Surely if you are actually there it is worth voting. I would hate to think "none of the above" is really the best answer.

[Edited 2010-08-20 05:06:00]
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
melpax
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:57 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 9):
So if I'm reading things correctly, you are legally required to vote, but you only have to go to the polling station and register, but not actually cast a balot ? Surely if you are actually there it is worth voting.

That's right. All you're legally required to do is to attend a polling place & have your name ticked off the electoral roll as having attended to vote & been given ballot papers. There's nothing to stop you from putting those papers straight into the ballot box without marking your vote, if that's what you want to do. A mate of mine will mark his ballot paper for the House of Representatives (Congress for you Americans...) as normal, but will write 'You're all a bunch of crooks' over the Senate ballot paper...... Silly if you ask me, but that's what happens when people are compelled by law to vote.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austral...n_electoral_system#Informal_voting

[Edited 2010-08-20 04:58:04]
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
TheCommodore
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Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:00 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 9):
So if I'm reading things correctly, you are legally required to vote, but you only have to go to the polling station and register, but not actually cast a balot ? Surely if you are actually there it is worth voting.

Your right.
It is compulsory to vote in Australia, if you don't you receive a $50.00 fine

When voting day comes around, we are required have our names ticked off the register, collect our voting papers and (if you want, vote) you can then go about your other days business.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
offloaded
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:10 pm

Very interesting. Thanks for the answers guys.

I have often wondered if democracy would be better served if people were required to vote.

It had not really occured to me though in Oz that it was permissable to spoil your balet paper, or in effect, not actually vote by doing so.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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allrite
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:19 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
... my counrtymen deserve every bit as much scorn for being a so borishly redneck as to have allowed the national election to be conducted on this purile basis. I'm embarrassed.

Should our countrymen elect a prime minister who is so stupid as to encourage skepticism in young children by telling them that climate change is a myth because "it was hotter in Jesus' day" and is proud to publicly display his ignorance of technology (amongst his numerous other foolish actions) then perhaps the boat people problem will be one of more intelligent Australians departing these shores for places where their minds will be better appreciated, rather than the public celebration of ignorance we have now.

And behind Abbott are nasty religious nutcases. Don't forget that they selected David Barker in the first place, before disendorsing him.

Not that the Labor party has done much better. The number crunching idiots haven't even learned from the great disaster that is NSW, treating government as their personal power game where policy is simply spin rather than making decisions to benefit the people of Australia.

In my electorate we have a choice between Labor, Liberal, Greens, two wacko Christian moral parties, racist One Nation, or the selfishly libertarian Liberal Democrats. All I will say is that I hope preferences don't come into it.

I remember early in the campaign the SMH had a "self funded retiree" on their elector panel. He said something along the lines of "I'll only be looking at what the parties are doing for people like myself. I don't care about climate change." No, of course you don't, because you'll probably be dead when the worst comes. But you vote. My toddler son will have to deal with the consequences, but he can't vote.

I've lost confidence in our political, public service and business "leaders" (if opinion poll/investor whim following can be called leadership). It's all about the short term and ego.

But before we hope on a boat and seek asylum elsewhere, is it any better anywhere else? Why should the citizens of any other country be any smarter? Maybe Singapore, where the press rarely has cause to criticise the government (if they want to avoid defamation payouts) or China where the local citizenry are always applauding the actions of their government when I see CCTV on SBS (not being a Mandarin speaker I can't confirm what they are saying). Or how about North Korea, which is ruled by a living* god?

I recommend taking a look at https://www.belowtheline.org.au/ if you are wondering where your senate preferences are going. I hope that there will be no repeats of Family First this time.

* Or probably still living
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pilotdude09
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:40 pm

Go Julia is all I can say. Tax the miners and give us the NBN those 2 things are the draw card for Labor.

Living in a mining town where nothing is put back into the community I think it's great, they only pay royalties and stuff all tax. Sick and tired of all the money we produce and also get taxed and get nothing for it.

Tony Abbot is an absolute tool and his broadband plan is just a joke and work choices is a scary thought it will be back.
Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:42 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
the only OECD nation to do so

You think, it didn't really hit NZ any worse than Aussie, here in Norway people don't even know what it was because it didn't make any impact at all.

Since you are an Aussie you should be pretty used to being embarrassed, it happens nearly every time you play the All Blacks 
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:37 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
why we fear running out of resources and being over populated when we have a country the size of the continental United States with a population only 8% the size. Admittedly, ours is largely arid, but a huge amount is also fertile.

A thing called water....
quite simply Australia does not have enough of it.
Desalination is expensive and has other issues associated with it... burning fossil fuels to make water is not a good thing for the environment... the so called "Big Australia" is not necessary. You seem to be of the view to allow in millions of immigrants one way or the other... where will they all live? 99% of them will want to live in the cities as they currently do... Sydney and Melbourne are already large cities and have massive problems with congestion etc... Urban sprawl is NOT the answer. Sure they can build upwards but that is expensive when done rapidly rather than gradually.
Long term IF... nuclear fusion becomes available cheaply then it may be possible via desalination to irrigate much of Australia allowing it to become utilized for food production and/or bigger population etc. Quite frankly the world is overpopulated already so you should be feeling lucky to be living in an uncrowded place and be trying to protect that. Almost all experts agree that there will be major wars in the future (next 50 years) over resources/land/food etc
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
it's the people arriving by jets (aka "jet-people") who overstay their visas, or falsify their documents

Yep, I see it every week on *Aiport Security* or whatever that show is called.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
baroque
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
Any thoughts?

Yes, mostly THIS

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
I'm embarrassed.

      but not half as furious as I will be at Labor if I wake up Sunday to a Mad Monk PM!!!

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Quoting tk747 (Reply 1):
Julia Gillard in power.

Oh yes, the women who wasted millions and millions on school tuck shops and Library's.... Made many a builder a multi millionaire

I will see your wasted libraries (I understand at least two schools actually like them) and raise you extraordinary shuffling of taxes back into middle class welfare from subsidizing the creeps who run health insurance, to the spivs running superannuation schemes and a Dept of Immigration that specialized in exporting citizens like Ms Solon, the AWB and all the memory zero ministers right up to Howard and the baby bonus used as a source of income for young unmarried mothers and numerous other transfers of taxes to various targets Howard and Costalot identified. ........... But allrite was watching too.

Quoting allrite (Reply 13):
Should our countrymen elect a prime minister who is so stupid as to encourage skepticism in young children by telling them that climate change is a myth because "it was hotter in Jesus' day" and is proud to publicly display his ignorance of technology (amongst his numerous other foolish actions) then perhaps the boat people problem will be one of more intelligent Australians departing these shores for places where their minds will be better appreciated, rather than the public celebration of ignorance we have now.

   and many other    s

Quoting allrite (Reply 13):
I recommend taking a look at https://www.belowtheline.org.au/ if you are wondering where your senate preferences are going. I hope that there will be no repeats of Family First this time.

Ah well now, that is if you follow a party recommendation but if, like me you vote for the two or three you actually like, and then it is the real race to the bottom, I believe that what happens to your vote is partly a matter of chance. I once asked an ALP numbers man about my vote and he came back after a couple of weeks and said it would all depend on whether my vote went into a successful quota or not. If that happens, the preferences are exhausted and the prefs never happen.

Going back to Ozg's original plea, yes the move to turn education into an export industry was doomed to cause more trouble than it helps. Linked with the Howard governments decision to award resident status for those taking "approved" courses was a total joke and it more than anything has given the boat people nonsense oxygen. By the way, do take note that Rudd's great hero Bonhoeffer was actually a people smuggler and could be jailed for up to 20 years now.

But I digress, one of the reasons changing the Res rent taxes was bad is that the original iron ore and coal leases had additional conditions for processing in Australia. In the case of the iron ore mines there were attempts with Hismelt and the HBI plants but both Rio and BHP found it was more profitable just to ship out untreated ore. The coal lease conditions were a bit more complex but they too have been breached, the Utah leases (now BHP) all had sinking fund conditions. Nobody knows where the money went, like as not it went to develop the GE90-115!!!!!!!!!!

Gillard might not have the best plans for developing a funds similar to Norway's fund but at least it is better than frittering the mining income away as Howard and Costalot did.

An Abbott government would have that creep Andrews as something or other so he could lock up more Haneef's, a Julie Bishop to become a new Lord Downer and Moir in the SMH gets Hockey to a T in
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/cartoons
and would there ever have been a more shifty Finance minister than Robb(er).

If only a Mista Rabbit proof fence can be built overnight.

Is there no memory about how bad Howards lot were, Rabbits new hordes are the ones who could not get other jobs.
 
comorin
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:44 pm

Baroque,

Rest easy. Dirty Harry the Croc predicts victory for Julia.



Source: ABC News.
 
baroque
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:02 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
Baroque,

Rest easy. Dirty Harry the Croc predicts victory for Julia.

The clip I saw was a bit short, but it appeared that DH was positioned a bit closer to Jules. Being a lazy bugger he just collected the nearest one. What they should have hung up was a rabbit and a guillemot.

Thanks for the thought, but hard to rest easy with the thought of a Mad Monk.

One reflecting is that Rudds problems started not so much with he squibbing climate change - which he did - but the sudden desire to confess to a bunch of sins that were in part mainly in his own mind. Once he went forth and said his government was bad bad bad and needed to get better better better he was done.

This might be standard fare for the confessional and honesty is OK in its place but you cannot confess to sins and not expect to suffer.

Only positive is that the Mad Monk could easily do the same. And then the Atheist WOULD pounce!
 
baroque
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
Of course, once made into a business, education long ago became "Training".

The lousy deal given many overseas students is illustrated in a cost breakdown I was able to make a number of years ago. A course in Accountancy, run in vacation attracted fees of just over $110,000. Instruction was by part-timers and the costs could be calculated at between $5000 and $9000. Add say $5000 for exams, that leaves around 85% for overheads. No doubt costs were higher for many other courses, but that breakdown was probably all too common. Not great value for the students?

And Universities wonder why they got into trouble.

It is interesting that this sort of issue was never discussed, nor that the Rudd government - Jules in particular - was most of the way to solving at least parts of the dreadful legacy from the Howard ministers of Ed.

The use of stats by the parties did not attract the criticism it should have done. The Libs wandered all over the place with their numbers for deficits getting up to 200 billion at times for the debt - the most likely number appears to be about 70 billion. The number of migrants was similarly a fact free zone. Let alone the number of boat people and of course never ever a mention of how many of the boat people were displaced associated with wars that Australia chose to fight in. Grrrrrr! China house rules folks.
 
comorin
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:53 pm

Are any of the contenders opposed to selling Uranium (Yellowcake?) to India? Would be a nice step for Oz-India relations.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:13 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
A thing called water....
quite simply Australia does not have enough of it.
Desalination is expensive and has other issues associated with it... burning fossil fuels to make water is not a good thing for the environment.

Use nuclear to desalinate. Saudi Arabia has a project on the boards to do just that. Yes, it's expensive, but the notion that access to water is merely desirable if cost effective is like saying access to air is pleasant but not mandatory.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:05 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):

What would you do with all the leftover salt?   
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:22 pm

Go Liberals.

I'm off to cast my vote down at the local public school, maybe even get to see a new tuck shop, library or toilet block or Julia Gillard Memorial hall, built for millions with tax payer $$$$

Who knows, what might happen today, but I'd really like a change.

BTW, where has Miss P Wong, and P Garrett been hiding throughout this campaign ???

Funny that we haven't seen much of them. Liability, No surely not !   

At this stage its neck and neck.

May the Mad Monk kick ass.

Go Tony !!   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5175
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Beg to differ ! Having been left with 58 billion in the bank after the Howard era left us in a VERY good position to deal with this crises

Lol, so you are happy that we have been taxed to high heaven? Surplus usually means we have paid thru the nose with our tax. If you dislike debt, I suggest you never get a home loan.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
This is not the first time an election has been like this. Remember the last Keating election, full of lies and deception.

Lol, you have a short memory, Howard did it in successive elections.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:41 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 26):
Lol, so you are happy that we have been taxed to high heaven?

No, I dislike tax like anyone .Where did I say I like tax ? not sure what you mean ?

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 26):
If you dislike debt,

Um, now you really got me confused, who said I dislike debt.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 26):
I suggest you never get a home loan.

I don't !

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 26):
Lol, you have a short memory, Howard did it in successive elections.

No I don't, memory is just fine thanks. Im just reminding Ozglobal of past history, instead of people thinking that this election is any different from any of the past ones. I'd suggest most people forget pretty quickly.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 26):
Howard did it in successive elections.

And very successful too I might add.
  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5175
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
No, I dislike tax like anyone .Where did I say I like tax ? not sure what you mean ?

you obviously don't understand the point I am making, you talk about the $57 billion of surplus left by Howard, that is YOUR tax, you say it was very good, which it may well have been, but at the end of the day its still yours and my taxes.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
Um, now you really got me confused, who said I dislike debt.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
and i say HAD in big letters (Not any more, thanks to labors wastefulness) plenty of cash in the back to help out too !!

well, this is what you said, what should i draw from these comments? a love of surplus and dislike of wasteful spending that puts us in debt, at the end of the day the money was spent and it created jobs and saved a few hundred thousand too.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
Im just reminding Ozglobal of past history, instead of people thinking that this election is any different from any of the past ones. I'd suggest most people forget pretty quickly.

odd, because Abbotts ministry will look like Howards if he is elected. I would suggest that people may well remember that too.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:33 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 28):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
No, I dislike tax like anyone .Where did I say I like tax ? not sure what you mean ?

you obviously don't understand the point I am making, you talk about the $57 billion of surplus left by Howard, that is YOUR tax, you say it was very good, which it may well have been, but at the end of the day its still yours and my taxes.

So what do you want then.

To be paying million and perhaps billions of $$$$$ to some other country in interest payments, No thanks.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 28):
well, this is what you said, what should i draw from these comments? a love of surplus and dislike of wasteful spending that puts us in debt, at the end of the day the money was spent and it created jobs and saved a few hundred thousand too.

What I was saying was this. That surplus (which Howard and Costello left us with) put us ahead of many, if not all other countries when dealing with the crisis. If we had to deal with a hugh deficient before the crisis began, then wouldn't that put us in an even more vulnerable position ?

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 28):
odd, because Abbotts ministry will look like Howards if he is elected. I would suggest that people may well remember that too.

Are you voting for the people/candidates, or the policy's of that particular party ??

Common mistake made by, unfortunately many many Australians
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
BTW, where has Miss P Wong, and P Garrett been hiding throughout this campaign ???

Whilst not a huge fan of either I am not sure one can single those out.
The campaign has been quite "Presidential" i.e. Gillard v Abbott and either the parties have pushed individual candidates to the background or the media have focused on the leaders.

I would not have known who my local Labor candidate was if she had not collared me at the train station yesterday!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
BTW, where has Miss P Wong, and P Garrett been hiding throughout this campaign ???

Adding to this sage comment:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 30):
Whilst not a huge fan of either I am not sure one can single those out.

they were put in a most uncomfortable box, uncomfortable because it turned out to be the very same box that was occupied by Bishop J, Bishop Other, Andrews most of the nationals but especially Barnaby J and a few other of the worse liberals. Looked as if Hockey spent a bit of the time in there too when he was not asking Robb for advice on what was happening.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
Go Tony !!

Now that I can agree to. Go a long way away Tony and never ever come back, in fact try dead, buried and them bloody well cremate yourself to make us safer from more Lazarus imitations.

Remember the Sea Sprites as Carlton M reminds us from the SMH this morning.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...r-going-to-fly-20100820-138vo.html
Worst idea ever? That batty claim was never going to fly
August 21, 2010

Tony Abbott is either a barefaced liar or he has a mind like Swiss cheese. "This is the worst-managed program in living memory, bar none," he spluttered on Wednesday, banging on again about the government's roof insulation scheme.

Hardly. That distinction belongs to the Howard government's grand plan to acquire the Super Seasprite helicopter for the navy, an epic fiasco that blundered along for 12 years and squandered well over $1 billion before it was scrapped.

Given Phoney Toney's claim, ad nauseam, that only the Coalition can save the nation from Labor's waste and extravagance, here is a useful recap:


I could even be enthusiastic voting for you Mike!

Edit just off to vote. In Cunningham, where Mike Organ was elected as the first Green member of the Reps can I remind Dr Brown on another occasion when we got rather annoyed at the machinations of the Labor machine. Which means half an hour making sure I get my senate vote correct!!.

[Edited 2010-08-20 18:08:06]
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:50 am

Now come on Baroque,

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
they were put in a most uncomfortable box, uncomfortable because it turned out to be the very same box that was occupied by Bishop J, Bishop Other, Andrews most of the nationals but especially Barnaby J and a few other of the worse liberals. Looked as if Hockey spent a bit of the time in there too when he was not asking Robb for advice on what was happening.

Bishop, Hockey and Andrews have been visible in this campaign,which I cant say for Wong and Garrett despite having a foot in mouth syndrome, sometimes, but at least they haven't been scared enough not to show their faces.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
Go Tony !!

Now that I can agree to. Go a long way away Tony and never ever come back, in fact try dead, buried and them bloody well cremate yourself to make us safer from more Lazarus imitations.

Well you may not like him, but can you honestly say you prefer Gillard, who is only there by default, and still holding the smoking gun ?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Carlton M reminds us from the SMH this morning.

Now that spit fill so and so, should be buried, many fathoms underground. He died a slow death on radio. Was reselected a few times but in the end became a liability for the radio station's insurers $$$$$

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Hardly. That distinction belongs to the Howard government's grand plan to acquire the Super Seasprite helicopter for the navy, an epic fiasco that blundered along for 12 years and squandered well over $1 billion before it was scrapped.

Ah yes, but it never killed anyone though did it ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:42 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
Well you may not like him, but can you honestly say you prefer Gillard, who is only there by default, and still holding the smoking gun ?

Not that keen on Gillard but infinitely prefereable to Abbott. I have like some relapsed Jesuits, but not that many.

The smoke from Gillards gun was useful for Abbott as it hid the blood stains on his hands from where he stabbed Turnbull, having managed to plunge the sword first through Hockey, which considering the girth and general density of Hockey was quite an achievement.

As far as Rudd was concerned, just before you tell me, he was not made PM by the general electorate but by the caucus, and it was theirs to annoint and to slay. Anyway, he had to be slain, anyone who has confessed his government could do better was going to be torn apart by the Mad Monk regardless of how much better he was. One religious extremist perishing due to the efforts of another.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
Ah yes, but it never killed anyone though did it ?

Of course you have not checked to see what the fatality rate was for the insulation. It turns out to be lower during the batts for defeating the GFC than the average. The thing that was different is there were so many more roofs being done.

And the Seasprites were 100% wasted money, not a POSSIBLE 5% of something like 2.6% of however much went on schools. BTW, those M1A1s have proved their worth too.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):

Bishop, Hockey and Andrews have been visible in this campaign,which I cant say for Wong and Garrett despite having a foot in mouth syndrome, sometimes, but at least they haven't been scared enough not to show their faces.

No more than Wong and Garrett. You are probably like me and shut yr eyes when you fear you might see Garrett, but he has been around. And you only got to see Bishop J because the Chaser put her on for her stare.

Andrews should not be available, he should be in jail serving time for illegal imprisonment.

Elect Brown and then we might have a balanced ME policy!!!!!! Come arn, I know you want one.   
 
ozglobal
Topic Author
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:35 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
the so called "Big Australia" is not necessary. You seem to be of the view to allow in millions of immigrants one way or the other... where will they all live? 99% of them will want to live in the cities as they currently do... Sydney and Melbourne are already large cities and have massive problems with congestion etc... Urban sprawl is NOT the answer. Sure they can build upwards but that is expensive when done rapidly rather than gradually.

On what basis do you assert that I am "of the view to allow in millions of immigrants one way or the other" ... and "rapidly"? What I object to is the puerile fear driven 'over population' rant which you seem to be bought into. Manage resources and we'd live 10 times better with the population we HAVE and be positioned to GRADUALLY (I agree) integrate a larger number. Water is a massive issue in Australia and will take all our energies and a lot of resources to manage, but it can be done FAR better than it is today.

Anyone reading my posts on public infrastructure would know I am one of the most persistent critics of the lamentable town planning and infrastructure development in Australia, UK and the US. Suburban sprawl is one of the key dysfunctions of Australian society. Melbourne and Sydney have populations of approx 4 and 5 million respectively, with diametres over 100 km at the extremities. It may have a very different history, but Paris has a population of 12,5 million with an area approx 60% the size of Melbourne. In Oz, UK and the US, under the same brand of blind servility to corporate interests, we stopped building the urban rail infrastructure and handed the keys to the city to self interested property developers who provided nothing more that curbs and guttering. For decades, we have built new 'suburbs' which are no more that get rich quick private projects, with no commuter rail, and often no schools or even local shops. Population growth does not equal suburban sprawl. Try Europe, Hong Kong, Singapore for starters.

A smarter country would be pouring its energies into sustainable urban planning and radically developing regional Australia along the key arterials: ADL-MEL-CBR-SYD-BNE with, for example high speed rail with nuclear generated electricity (we have one of the world's largest uranium deposits). If you want to argue on the HSR business case, bring it on. I have the facts and the case is compelling. Regional cities and infinitely better urban development should be the focus of Australia's growth.

I have nothing but contempt for the elements in Australia that turn to intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt xenophobic scare mungering, rather than having the creativity and courage to attack the problems and the opportunities facing Australia today. We have been and can be so much more than this mean idea of Australia.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:26 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 34):
We have been and can be so much more than this mean idea of Australia.

I will metaphorically drink to that. NBN is something, but we do need so much more. The rot set in with Malcolm Fraser cutting back on capital works as a way of finding funds for fist fulls of dollars if you remember them!!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 34):
I have nothing but contempt for the elements in Australia that turn to intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt xenophobic scare mungering, rather than having the creativity and courage to attack the problems and the opportunities facing Australia today.

If I had not been hunting around for a coal sample that had dematerialised I would have drawn yr attention to this:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-d...ld-worry-about-20100820-138te.html
The deficit we really should worry about
ROSS GITTINS
August 21, 2010

The biggest and most worrying deficit in this election campaign has been the policy deficit: the reluctance of both sides to debate any aspect of economic management bar the budget.
......
It's all very well for the advocates of high immigration to say the underlying problem is one of inadequate infrastructure, not immigration as such. What do they propose to do about it - abolish the states? Who will pay for the extra infrastructure (on top of the existing backlog) and how will it be financed? By privately issued, but heavily publicly subsidised (and at least implicitly government-guaranteed) infrastructure bonds? That'll fix it. Not.

We do need to undertake a careful, evidence-based examination of what is a ''sustainable'' population, in which the economists, technological optimists and natural scientists box it out. All sides need to confront the elements of truth in the other sides' positions.

All this is what Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott should have debated over the past five weeks, but didn't. Whoever wins, the economy will lose.


So you are not completely alone Ozglobal.   

Two hours and we will start to know. But what will we start to know?   
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
It is compulsory to vote in Australia, if you don't you receive a $50.00 fine

Think its $110 now...

Was gonna vote for the sex party as the line was shorter..but decided to go Greens.
אני תומך בישראל
 
bookishaviator
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:39 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:23 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 37):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
It is compulsory to vote in Australia, if you don't you receive a $50.00 fine

Think its $110 now...

It's a $20 fine initially. They can take you to Court if you don't pay or don't provide a valid reason for not voting - if you lose, the fine goes up to a maximum of $50.
When I die, when I die, I'll rot. But when I live, when I live, I'll give it all I've got.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 3694
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:59 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Use nuclear to desalinate.
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 34):
Anyone reading my posts on public infrastructure would know I am one of the most persistent critics of the lamentable town planning and infrastructure development in Australia, UK and the US. Suburban sprawl is one of the key dysfunctions of Australian society. Melbourne and Sydney have populations of approx 4 and 5 million respectively, with diametres over 100 km at the extremities. It may have a very different history, but Paris has a population of 12,5 million with an area approx 60% the size of Melbourne. In Oz, UK and the US, under the same brand of blind servility to corporate interests, we stopped building the urban rail infrastructure and handed the keys to the city to self interested property developers who provided nothing more that curbs and guttering. For decades, we have built new 'suburbs' which are no more that get rich quick private projects, with no commuter rail, and often no schools or even local shops. Population growth does not equal suburban sprawl. Try Europe, Hong Kong, Singapore for starters.

   well said, good call.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 34):
On what basis do you assert that I am "of the view to allow in millions of immigrants one way or the other" ... and "rapidly"?

Based on this:

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
why we fear running out of resources and being over populated when we have a country the size of the continental United States with a population only 8% the size.

8%? So in other words you'd like to see it higher... possibly much higher... well 10% would mean another 2 million, 15% would mean another 7 million, etc. Sure Australia is growing on its own accord... births over deaths, but the rate of natural growth is far below these figures and is unlikely to catch up to Americas rate of population growth... (They've gone from 250million to 300million in a decade or so and are heading for 350million in the next 20 years mostly from immigration from Mexico and other Latin American countries with the higher birthrates that ensue 3.4% vs 1% for the general population).

So yes that is why I assert that you are of the view to allow in millions of immigrants as that is the only plausible way for Australia to grow in the manner that you suggest.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:16 am

Possible hung parliament is the likely outcome at this stage, although 20% of the votes were pre-poll and will take some time to be counted.

This has been the most pathetic campaign by Labor since the 1970s. For a Government which has had no significant problem - they haven't trashed the economy, the haven't led us into an illegal war, they've spent big on infrastructure (the problems of the insulation program were actually caused by shonky small business people remember) how can they come so close to losing?

The fact that the Coalition may get back in makes me embarrassed to be Australian. At least a good minority of people agree that the Government wrestled a pig on its immigration, adopting the inhumane, racist policy of the opposition, rather than using facts to sell a more humane policy, and voted for the Greens instead. The Greens have won one seat, and my own seat may seat swing to the Greens
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:15 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 37):
Think its $110 now...

Was gonna vote for the sex party as the line was shorter..but decided to go Greens.
Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 38):
It's a $20 fine initially. They can take you to Court if you don't pay or don't provide a valid reason for not voting - if you lose, the fine goes up to a maximum of $50.

Thanks guys, I stand corrected.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 40):
For a Government which has had no significant problem

Hello,Your kidding right ?Remember, they assassinated there own leader, and people don't like that sort of behavior by faceless man working in the shadows. Makes people feel uneasy i think.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 40):
(the problems of the insulation program were actually caused by shonky small business people remember)

Please, the Government was running the show, don't blame small business.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 40):
The fact that the Coalition may get back in makes me embarrassed to be Australian.

I think you should be saying your embarrassed you voted/supported a dysfunctional Government, Id be keeping that to myself really

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 40):
At least a good minority of people agree that the Government wrestled a pig on its immigration,

Well, close to 50%, if that's a minority in your eyes ???
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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cpd
Posts: 4577
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RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:19 pm

It looks like libs might manage to do a minority government. But it's so close, that nobody could really give it any credibility.

But labor could do so too. There are some seats that are still too close to call.

I can't believe that this country has become so right wing and extreme. It's a crying shame, and it makes me feel ashamed to say I'm Australian.

[Edited 2010-08-21 05:25:12]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:46 pm

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 40):
This has been the most pathetic campaign by Labor since the 1970s. For a Government which has had no significant problem - they haven't trashed the economy, the haven't led us into an illegal war, they've spent big on infrastructure (the problems of the insulation program were actually caused by shonky small business people remember) how can they come so close to losing?

You would think that the ALP should be crying in its spilt milk but there is still enough support for the real result to be a plague on both your houses.

But will either take note?

If Wilkie gets in, there might be a person of principle in Parliament, wonder how that will turn out?

Quoting cpd (Reply 42):
I can't believe that this country has become so right wing and extreme. It's a crying shame, and it makes me feel ashamed to say I'm Australian.

Trouble is that neither NZ nor Canada at present offers a better option????
 
tk747
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:53 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:58 pm

How the hell could Australians have turned so right wing??? What is going on with this country? I'm definitely now feeling embarrassed at being an Australian.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:13 pm

Quoting tk747 (Reply 44):
How the hell could Australians have turned so right wing??? What is going on with this country?

Even more of a worry is why so many effectively voted for a guy who said in the famous interview with Kezza that he did not tell the truth.

So they voted against a great big new tax on mining and for a great big new tax on all large companies.

Back to the days when Honest John said "who do you trust?" and collectively we apparently forgot why he was called Homest John - because he could not lie straight in bed.

Depressing.
 
ozglobal
Topic Author
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:09 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 39):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 34):
On what basis do you assert that I am "of the view to allow in millions of immigrants one way or the other" ... and "rapidly"?

Based on this:

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
why we fear running out of resources and being over populated when we have a country the size of the continental United States with a population only 8% the size.

8%? So in other words you'd like to see it higher... possibly much higher... well 10% would mean another 2 million, 15% would mean another 7 million, etc. Sure Australia is growing on its own accord... births over deaths, but the rate of natural growth is far below these figures and is unlikely to catch up to Americas rate of population growth... (They've gone from 250million to 300million in a decade or so and are heading for 350million in the next 20 years mostly from immigration from Mexico and other Latin American countries with the higher birthrates that ensue 3.4% vs 1% for the general population).

So yes that is why I assert that you are of the view to allow in millions of immigrants as that is the only plausible way for Australia to grow in the manner that you suggest.

Sorry, but it doesn't follow. I simply stated the facts of our population to give some perspective. I don't have good enough data to propose a target growth rate, so have not at any stage. Re-read, please.

What I have said, is that I want to see an end to the intellectually lazy attitude to resource management which would rather simply reduce the population than creatively and responsibly manage and build for the future!
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:45 pm

A lot of rusted on Labor supporters were disgusted by its immigration policy, and only able to support the Government half-heartedly - the policy of both major parties stinks to high heaven.

I still stand by both BER and insulatation being mostly right, and can't believe the Gov't couldn't demonstrate the overwhelming positives of both, allowing the media and Opposition to take the running with the small number of negatives.

As for the Labor leadership change, I reckon Labor went to the polls too early, and people would have been over it by Christmas, especially if the mining super-profit tax issue was closed off. The Opposition was totally hypocritical running on this issue, especially after the way they knifed their last two leaders.

I'm horrified that we may, in less than 3 years, be heading back to the Coalition's small minded and mean spirited policies. At least a hung parliament may mean an early election.....
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:04 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 47):
A lot of rusted on Labor supporters were disgusted by its immigration policy, and only able to support the Government half-heartedly - the policy of both major parties stinks to high heaven.

What would suggest for a policy then, because as far as I can see no one, is offering any real alternative.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 47):
and can't believe the Gov't couldn't demonstrate the overwhelming positives of both

Very hard to put a positive spin on deaths. The voting public, or anyone with half a brain that is, can see through the spin

How many installers died again, 3/4 ?

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 47):
The Opposition was totally hypocritical running on this issue, especially after the way they knifed their last two leaders.

Difference being, they were not in Government with a democratically leader (PM) at the helm. Evey opposition goes through upheaval and change, especially after 11 years in office, it's only natural. Takes a while to find your feet again I suppose.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 47):
'm horrified that we may, in less than 3 years, be heading back to the Coalition's small minded and mean spirited policies. At least a hung parliament may mean an early election.....

Well my friend, that is life !
A sufficient number of your fellow country men believe that Labor was on the nose, I, myself in particular strongly believe this to be the case.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 47):
At least a hung parliament may mean an early election.....

Not necessarily. The independents may just keep things rocking along very well.

Don't forget, even before the election, Labor, with a house majority of 17 seats couldn't run the government effectively. They have now been smashed. It may make them sit up and take notice that the facless man of the NSW right faction should be taken out the back and quietly shot !, after all they caused all this to start with.

My only hope now, is that NSW labor get their asses kicked in the same way at next years election.

They couldn't run a chook raffle.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Kent350787
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Oz Election: Embarrassed To Be Australian

Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:19 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 48):
What would suggest for a policy then, because as far as I can see no one, is offering any real alternative.

Explaining to the people the minimal impact of the whole issue, rather than both parties racing to the bottom. The fact that Labor didn't offer an alternative to the coalition (ie. beat up on asylum seekers) was a major turn-off for many Labor supporters.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 48):
How many installers died again, 3/4 ?

4, and the small-business people who employed them have been charged under state occupational health and safety laws, as they were quite rightly responsible for the safety of their employees.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 48):
with a house majority of 17 seats couldn't run the government effectively.

The fact that they didn't have majority in the senate, and the fact that the opposition adopted a position of opposing good policy was no help.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 48):
It may make them sit up and take notice that the facless man of the NSW right faction should be taken out the back and quietly shot !, after all they caused all this to start with.

On this I am in 100% agreement with you!!!!!!  

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