racko
Topic Author
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Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:24 am

The level of violence in Mexico is really getting scarier by the day. After the discovery of the massacre that killed 72 last week now an official investigating the massacre has been murdered as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ico-massacre-investigator-migrants

It seems the drug cartels can really operate at will. I really don't see a way out of this for Mexico, the military crackdown hasn't worked at all, if anything, it only increased the violence.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:44 am

Yep I do see any way out of it for them. Their police are not strong enough and Lord knows how many are bought by the cartels. I don't see this getting better anytime soon.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Acheron
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:02 am

Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:00 pm

As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.

But, easier said than done. If Mexico does this, will the UN push sanctions on them? Will the US, EU and other countries?

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. That's what it looks like right now to me.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:33 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

I have no problem terrorizing the cartels. About 18 years ago there was this ruthless governor in the state of Sonora who completely rid the state of kidnappers and cartels (granted they weren't as powerful as now but still). Basically as soon as they were found, they were usually executed in the spot, or the next day they just wound up dead somehow. He created a special SWAT team of sorts for that very purpose. He was very controversial but everybody remembers him for truly getting the job done.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

I am all for legalizing all drugs but the US won't do it. Some people in CA I talk to think it's the worst thing which I can't understand. As for the police executing people that would just jump start a war I am not sure they could win.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
santosdumont
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:05 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...-hilton-arrested-on-_n_697849.html

As long as scum like Paris Hilton, her boyfriend du jour, Lindsay Lohan, young bucks on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill and their ilk continue fueling the exorbitant demand for cocaine in the United States, the cartels -- be they in Mexico, Colombia, or wherever else -- will continue operating, consolidating markets, and taking care of business in their own bloody, brutal fashion.

Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:23 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
As for the police executing people that would just jump start a war I am not sure they could win.

It doesn't have to be police. Just covert operatives. It would have to be a very very low key operation for it to work, kinda like what the Mossad has done in their assassinations, swift, quick, quiet. Basically, just having a bunch of high ranking cartel drug lords suddenly appear one morning dead without any real explanation will certainly send a shiver down the spines of many other drug lords. Sounds very Hollywoodesque but it's doable.

Maybe Mexico should hire some Mossad/CIA henchmen   
 
NIKV69
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:38 pm

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):
As long as scum like Paris Hilton, her boyfriend du jour, Lindsay Lohan, young bucks on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill and their ilk continue fueling the exorbitant demand for cocaine in the United States, the cartels -- be they in Mexico, Colombia, or wherever else -- will continue operating, consolidating markets, and taking care of business in their own bloody, brutal fashion.

Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".

I knew it was Paris' fault!   

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7):
It doesn't have to be police. Just covert operatives. It would have to be a very very low key operation for it to work, kinda like what the Mossad has done in their assassinations, swift, quick, quiet. Basically, just having a bunch of high ranking cartel drug lords suddenly appear one morning dead without any real explanation will certainly send a shiver down the spines of many other drug lords. Sounds very Hollywoodesque but it's doable.

Maybe Mexico should hire some Mossad/CIA henchmen

Unfortunately it's passed that point. Any murder of a high ranking drug figure will just incite worst violence and the innocent people are getting caught in the crossfire. It has to be a heavy kind of attack that really hurts and kills many in one shot to have any effect which Mexico is not prepared to do.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):

They will never stop. Nor will domestic consumption, which does happen and also drives a lot of violence. The problem is everywhere, not just "up here".

The only solution is decriminalization.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:32 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.

How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):
Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".

  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NIKV69
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:40 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
captaink
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:44 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

The problem is not the consumption of drugs in Mexico, nor it´s legality here, at least in my opinion.
There is something special about planes....
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:48 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

Alcohol hasn't been taxed and legislated nearly as much as tobacco but I guess it would apply too. I don't see how lawyers currently using tobacco suits as their personal slush funds wouldn't do the same for much more damaging substances like heroin and cocaine. How would anyone market any of the substances without being sued to heaven and back?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:52 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

One word: Prohibition. Same mess as with the current drug war. They legalized alcohol again, violence ended almost instantly.
 
Derico
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:37 pm

It should be worth pointing out that a recent UN report stated that in homicides per 100k people, several central and south American countries still fared worse than Mexico.

Hugo Chavez apparently recently issued a edict banning media from showing pictures of violence in newspapers, after a daily published on their front page a photograph from the Caracas Public Morgue, showing the facility overwhelmed with unclaimed bodies, victims of the violence in Caracas which is now said to have the highest murder rate on the planet, nearly 200 per 100,000 (according to several reports and Venezuelan and international media)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/...h-crime-rates-mak_27A4390815.shtml


2010 estimated murder rates for western hemisphere nations (above 8 per 100k consiered ''epidemic'')

Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)
El Salvador - 71 per 100,000 (rising)
Honduras - 67 per 100,000 (stable)
Jamaica - 60 per 100,000 (rising)
Guyana - 57 per 100,000 (estimate)
Guatemala - 52 per 100,000 (rising)
Colombia - 35 per 100,000 (stable)
Belize -33 per 100,000 (rising)
Bahamas - 27 per 100,000 (rising)
Brazil - 26 per 100,000 (stable)
Dominican Republic - 24 per 100,000 (stable)
Ecuador - 19 per 100,000 (rising)
Puerto Rico -19 per 100,000 (stable)
Haiti - 18 per 100,000 (estimate)
Mexico - 17 per 100,000 (rising)
Nicaragua -16 per 100,000 (stable)
Panama - 13 per 100,000 (rising)
Suriname - 13 per 100,000 (rising)
Paraguay - 12 per 100,000 (stable)
Trinidad and Tobago - 12 per 100,000 (rising)
Barbados -12 per 100,000 (stable)
Costa RIca - 8 per 100,000 (stable)
- - - - - - - -
Peru - 6 per 100,000 (stable)
United States - 5.5 per 100,000 (down)
Argentina - 5 per 100,000 (down)
Uruguay - 4.5 per 100,000 (stable)
Chile - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Bolivia - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Canada - 2 per 100,000 (stable)



Mexico has a very violent, sedistic death rate. In other countries it's apparently far worse it's just that the form of killling is not as gruesome.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
captaink
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:47 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Bahamas - 27 per 100,000 (rising)

This I find rather surprising.
There is something special about planes....
 
santosdumont
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:15 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

It helps if there's no crime associated with the profit motive. On another level, though, ask anyone to compare the effects -- "buzz," addictive quality, etc. -- of a drug like booze and one like crack cocaine and the reason for the staggering demand for the latter becomes crystal clear.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
I knew it was Paris' fault!

Individuals like her are complicit with the cocaine cartels. People like her keep the crime syndicates in business. The cartels are just moving product to where demand is greatest...free market 101.

The fact that she'll no doubt get just a slap on the wrist doesn't help either.

I suspect none of us on this board would be Tweeting and kicking back watching "Family Guy" a couple of hours after being busted for possession of cocaine.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
ltbewr
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:08 am

In the list of number of murders per year per 100,000 residents, as with Mexico, I would suspect most of the murders are over drugs and the drug trade. It remindes me of the rise of the cocaine trade in the mid-1980's and crack cocaine in the late 1980's-early 1990's with a huge run up in the murder rate in several metro areas of the USA, most notably Miani and NY Ctiy.

The problems that are particulary acute for Mexico is that it borders the USA and many innocents are getting caught in the crossfire, scaring away business investment (NAFTA and other trade) and toruists. Today (Saturday) there was a number of people murdered due to the drug trade in the major tourist city of Alcapolco, a place popular to many American toruist and cruise ships loaded with American tourist, and most of all, their money.

The most critical factors, to me, of this violence is the demand for illegal drugs in the USA and the massive economic imbalances in Mexico that encourges many to go for the drug trade to survive or get rich. Either take away the demand for drugs or cut out the financial benefits of the trade or make it so people won't have to be so driven into criminal enterprises (drugs, smuggling goods, smuggling people illegally into the USA).
 
shaq
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:35 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Panama - 13 per 100,000 (rising)

And people complain  

What calls my attention , is that no city in the Americas has a murder rate at downhill
Studying hard, for flying right!
 
Acheron
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:55 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Hugo Chavez apparently recently issued a edict banning media from showing pictures of violence in newspapers,

Chavez?.
How about the Courts since it was in violation of a Child's protection law?. And if there is a court that is effective and hard to corrupt is that court in particular.

And this is the picture in question, that caused the controversy, and yes, it was printed on front page like any cheap tabloid
(WARNING, GRAPHIC IMAGE)
http://impresodigital.el-nacional.com/ediciones/2010/08/13/PV/tapa.pdf
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture. Plus there are claim that it is an old picture before the Morgue was fixed, but I don't know.

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
victims of the violence in Caracas which is now said to have the highest murder rate on the planet, nearly 200 per 100,000 (according to several reports and Venezuelan and international media)

So, how you go from

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)

to nearly 200?.
Let me call bullcrap on that one.

In most cases, most of the deaths are between gang member or drug related crime. Doesn't make it any better, but its no civil war either. You'd be hard pressed to find the type of stuff Cartels do in Mexico, in Caracas.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
I am all for legalizing all drugs but the US won't do it. Some people in CA I talk to think it's the worst thing which I can't understand.

Most people seem to think, that by legalizing it, everybody will turn a violent drug addict or something similar

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
How would anyone market any of the substances without being sued to heaven and back?

Well, do like cigarettes, add a warning lable that mentions some of the consecuences of abusing drugs. Plus spread information on how similar campaings have worked in countries that have legalized hard drugs.

There is plenty of ways to deal with this far more efficiently and cheaply than trying to use an Army, specially since the people you are fighting against were trained by former Army members themselves.
Thats another issue, you are not fighting a bunch of opium-consuming bearded guys who shot AK's from the hip, you are fighting against well trained and well armed people in armored vehicles, who have enough money to bribe anyone and if you can't bribe them, they have enough contacts to kill them.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
I have no problem terrorizing the cartels.

Me neither, but what about the Human Rights Organizations who are willing to protect even these scumbags and make a fuss everywhere about it?.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:40 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would suspect most of the murders are over drugs and the drug trade.

Fortunately that seems to be the case, 95% of the time. People don't get killed randomly just because the drug lords decided to go on killing spree. But if you have even the slightest amount of business or interaction with these crooks, you're life is in danger. Almost all murders are a result of one gang/person getting even with another. Every once in a while unfortunately a mistake is made, and either the wrong people are targeted, or people get caught in a firefight.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
Alcapolco
Acapulco  
Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):

Me neither, but what about the Human Rights Organizations who are willing to protect even these scumbags and make a fuss everywhere about it?.

We execute them too    
 
PPVRA
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Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:51 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
Chavez?.
How about the Courts since it was in violation of a Child's protection law?. And if there is a court that is effective and hard to corrupt is that court in particular.

In his pockets. Child protection? That's grasping at straws.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
And this is the picture in question, that caused the controversy, and yes, it was printed on front page like any cheap tabloid
(WARNING, GRAPHIC IMAGE)
http://impresodigital.el-nacional.com/ediciones/2010/08/13/PV/tapa.pdf
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture. Plus there are claim that it is an old picture before the Morgue was fixed, but I don't know.

You, as well as the Venezuelan government, don't like it because it makes Chavez look bad. The whole of Latin America blames the high crime rate in the region on "inequality", but Chavez is showing us all what a fallacy that is.

[Edited 2010-08-28 22:53:00]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:08 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture.

In other words if there are no means to censor it completely, at leat move it somewhere where people won't see it? A picture speaks thousand words. And a picture often delivers a more powerful message that endless paragraphs describing it.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)

to nearly 200?.

Even if it was "just" 74, isn't it bad enough?
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:31 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

There are still moonshine runners across the nation, and trucks of cigarettes still get hijacked to sold without the tax stamps on them. You can still find a "numbers" game if you look for it in States that have legal lotteries, just like you can find prostitutes in Las Vegas even though prostitution is legal just a few miles up the road. You don't see the violence now days like you did back in the 20's and 30's because the mob wised up and realized that being on the front page for killing each other in grusome and public ways was not good for business. Legalizing drugs won't make the pushers go away. They will sell their stuff cheaper than the government will allow legal dealers to and still be around.

Many of these people, all bound for illegal entry into the United States, are held for ransom by the cartels that not only deal in drug trafficking but in human trafficking as well. If they can't get their price and feel that they are going to lose money on the bunch, they cut their losses to be very crude. I suspect that is exactly what happened in this case. There appear to be a number of unmarked mass graves being found all over northern Mexico so this is not the first time this has happend nor will it be the last. Only when we properly secure the border and develop a system where a person can be documented at the border and given a fool proof way to be tracked while in the country as a guest worker will the problem lessen. In addition employers have to be given a fool proof way to check on a persons status and be held to high account if they are found to be violating the rules when hiring.

In Mexico we are going to have to do the same thing we did with Columbia in the 80's and 90's and help the government there break the back of the cartels. We've done it before we can do it again but Mexico has to want the help.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:31 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
There are still moonshine runners across the nation, and trucks of cigarettes still get hijacked to sold without the tax stamps on them.

But does ordinary Mr. or Mrs. Smith in vast majority cases buy his/her bottle of Jack or pack of cigarettes properly taxed from a legal vendor or do they bother to seek illegal channels?

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
Legalizing drugs won't make the pushers go away. They will sell their stuff cheaper than the government will allow legal dealers to and still be around.

Some of them perhaps will be still around, but what makes you think that legalizing and de-demonizing soft drugs wouldn't follow the pattern of alcohol or tobacco? The only difference seems to be perception of alcohol, tobacco vs. marijuana, hashish and other soft drugs..
Also, wouldn't limited legalisation give the law enforcement more space to allocate resources properly, you know instead of scoring easy points busting "highly dangerous" ring of student drug "dealers" who sold few marijuana joints to their friends on a party last Saturday night, focus on the big fish dealing heroin, crack and the like?
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:45 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Peru - 6 per 100,000 (stable)
United States - 5.5 per 100,000 (down)
Argentina - 5 per 100,000 (down)
Uruguay - 4.5 per 100,000 (stable)
Chile - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Bolivia - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Canada - 2 per 100,000 (stable)

Phew..at least the UK escaped that list.   

As the number of jobs available goes down you can expect more street violence. People need to earn money and if drug selling is the only income, so be it.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Derico
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:19 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
to nearly 200?.
Let me call bullcrap on that one.

In most cases, most of the deaths are between gang member or drug related crime. Doesn't make it any better, but its no civil war either. You'd be hard pressed to find the type of stuff Cartels do in Mexico, in Caracas.

In most countries on that list with a very high murder rate, it is related to drugs and gangs. If you are not part of those, and don't venture in to their main turf, you are atually relatively safe, be it Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia, or Rio.

You can have Caracas with a much higher murder rate than Venezuela as a whole, it simply implies murder rates in the REST of Venezuela are that much lower, to average out the national numbers. Obviously it indicates the huge problem is mainly in Caracas and that the rest of the country is far more secure. The United States has a 5 per 100k murder rate but many of that large cities like New Orleans, Detroit, Miami, New York, Chicago have much higher murder rates.

And then this statistic doesn't tell you how ''safe'' a country is from overall crime. You may have a low murder rate but a high rate of petty theft, Buenos Aires is kinda like that with relatively low murders but people are complaining about the constant robberies of stores and banks. They usually are overnight and don't involve violence, but it's crime nontheless even if BA in world standards is relatively a safe place.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:20 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 26):
Phew..at least the UK escaped that list.

As the number of jobs available

It's only a list of the Americas, it didn't include any country outside North, Central or South America. Though from what I've seen, EU murder rates are between 3 to 4 in the big countries to less than 2 in the smaller ones.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:50 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):

In Mexico we are going to have to do the same thing we did with Columbia in the 80's and 90's and help the government there break the back of the cartels.

The reason it's in Mexico in the first place is because it was pushed out of Colombia. As long as the demand is unchanged, it will just go via another route if it's pushed out of Mexico.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:12 pm

There is something bigger going on in Mexico and south America .... the drug cartels are certainly in play but geopolitics is in motion as well. Simply put ...forces are trying to overthrow the Mexican government . The cartels have plenty of money and plenty of hungry desperate foot soldiers ...it is too good of a gift to pass up for anti American elements in the world. I am worried about Mexico .... I spend time down there (or used too) and love the people there . They are powerless to stop any of this .... completely powerless.

The citizens of Mexico deserve to be armed to fight back against these coyote's and thugs. The people deserve to have the means to defend themselves and there neighborhoods against these gangs. Restore the citizens power to help the police .... I see no other way .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:37 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
The citizens of Mexico deserve to be armed to fight back against these coyote's and thugs. The people deserve to have the means to defend themselves and there neighborhoods against these gangs. Restore the citizens power to help the police .... I see no other way .

Like this?

 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):

I am all for gun rights but that will not solve this problem. The problem stems from gang versus gang versus police and military fights. The average citizen doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with it. The violence doesn't stay completely contained between these groups, some invariably spills out. Especially if it's some drug dealer who has debt to repay and no money.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Decriminalizing the drug trade, I fear, will just legitimize the cartels.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15274
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:30 pm

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 33):
I fear, will just legitimize the cartels.

And then we'll have the Kennedy's part II 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

RE: Violence In Mexico

Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:49 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
The citizens of Mexico deserve to be armed to fight back against these coyote's and thugs. The people deserve to have the means to defend themselves and there neighborhoods against these gangs. Restore the citizens power to help the police .... I see no other way .

What we have in Mexico are, as you mentioned, organizations where money is no object -- neither is the law (that goes without saying). These cartels don't do their gun shopping at the local Kwik-E-Mart. They, like the cartels that run the favelas in Rio and other Brazilian cities, are interested in military-grade materiel (as in the kind of weapons that can easily bring down police helicopters). A gun in the hands of a weekend shooter means absolutely nothing when put up against an organization made up of rogue Mexican special forces soldiers and elite cops trained by US advisers to fight the very people which have now purchased them.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
The cartels have plenty of money and plenty of hungry desperate foot soldiers ...it is too good of a gift to pass up for anti American elements in the world.

That's exactly why "model citizens" like Hugo Chavez and Al Qa'ida have plugged into the narco-trafficking game.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
Only when we properly secure the border and develop a system where a person can be documented at the border and given a fool proof way to be tracked while in the country as a guest worker will the problem lessen.

The trafficking in persons problem could conceivably ease up. The traffic will continue as long as the voracious demand in the United States exists -- and all signs point to that status quo remaining in place.

Quoting dxing (Reply 24):
In Mexico we are going to have to do the same thing we did with Columbia in the 80's and 90's and help the government there break the back of the cartels. We've done it before we can do it again but Mexico has to want the help.

What the United States helped do back in the day was to dismantle the ostentatious, crude operations of the "Cocaine Cowboys" that Pablo Escobar spearheaded. By the time he was killed in 1993, the Cali Cartel and other Escobar rivals had already made significant inroads into his market.

When authorities seized the Cali group's top bosses in the mid 1990s, the Norte del Valle cartel took over and even FARC guerrillas were unable to resist the cocaine smuggling game. That's where we're at right now.

Which brings me back to Paris Hilton. "Socialites" like her keep the cartels in business. As long as the glitterati from Hollywood, Washington, New York, and all points in between continue lusting after that white stuff -- and continue getting a slap on the wrist when caught in possession of cocaine -- the cartels will simply modify their tactics to work around whatever obstacles exist.

In the end, the United States is going to have to want to genuinely clamp down on the demand problem.
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:51 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
But does ordinary Mr. or Mrs. Smith in vast majority cases buy his/her bottle of Jack or pack of cigarettes properly taxed from a legal vendor or do they bother to seek illegal channels?

Enough of them do to keep the criminals that service that end of the spectrum in business. With the sin tax placed on cigarettes I'd be willing to bet there has been an uptick in that market.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
Some of them perhaps will be still around, but what makes you think that legalizing and de-demonizing soft drugs wouldn't follow the pattern of alcohol or tobacco? The only difference seems to be perception of alcohol, tobacco vs. marijuana, hashish and other soft drugs..

If any are around then legalizing the drug of choice is a failure.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
Also, wouldn't limited legalisation give the law enforcement more space to allocate resources properly

Law enforcement can already allocate as they feel necessary.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
The reason it's in Mexico in the first place is because it was pushed out of Colombia. As long as the demand is unchanged, it will just go via another route if it's pushed out of Mexico.

It is the producers that have lost ground in Columbia, Mexico is a trafficking problem.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 35):
The trafficking in persons problem could conceivably ease up. The traffic will continue as long as the voracious demand in the United States exists -- and all signs point to that status quo remaining in place.

That's true and it will be true whether drugs are legalized or not.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 35):
That's where we're at right now.

Once Columbia started extraditing their drug lords to the U.S. for prosecution the tide turned. No longer could Columbian Judges be bribed to give leinent sentences and no longer could prosecutors be bought. Since they were being shipped to the U.S. for trial that went out the window. It was after that happened that the Columbian government was able to gain control again.
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:06 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):

Meh, they're all still better than Detroit.   . On a serious note, in 2008, the large US city in the US with the highest rate of murder/manslaughter was New Orleans. Only Venezuela, El Salvador, and Honduras have a murder rate higher than did New Orleans in 2008 (the last year for which I can find statistics right now).   

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 17):
Individuals like her are complicit with the cocaine cartels. People like her keep the crime syndicates in business. The cartels are just moving product to where demand is greatest...free market 101.

  

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
The reason it's in Mexico in the first place is because it was pushed out of Colombia. As long as the demand is unchanged, it will just go via another route if it's pushed out of Mexico.

Exactly. As long as there exists demand, the cartels will find a new home.
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Pyrex
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:50 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff

Well, surprised it took all of two posts for someone to start demonizing the U.S. and proposing we surrender to these criminal thugs.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):

As long as scum like Paris Hilton, her boyfriend du jour, Lindsay Lohan, young bucks on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill and their ilk continue fueling the exorbitant demand for cocaine in the United States, the cartels -- be they in Mexico, Colombia, or wherever else -- will continue operating, consolidating markets, and taking care of business in their own bloody, brutal fashion.
Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):
Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".

Yes, of course, it is all the big bad American's fault. 72 migrant workers show up dead? Paris Hilton! Nothing like a good excuse to absolve us from any personal responsibility. Next you are going to say that all the genocides in Africa are somehow the fault of the Europeans, no?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):

So, how you go from

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)

to nearly 200?.
Let me call bullcrap on that one.

Venezuela is not the same thing as Caracas... but if you yell loud enough maybe the people won't notice the problems good old Hugo is causing, right?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
Fortunately that seems to be the case, 95% of the time. People don't get killed randomly just because the drug lords decided to go on killing spree

Unless, of course, you are a migrant worker just trying to make your way across the border to go become a gardener in the U.S. Then you get slaughtered-

Quoting babybus (Reply 26):
As the number of jobs available goes down you can expect more street violence. People need to earn money and if drug selling is the only income, so be it.

Ah, nothing like good old moral relativism.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
The problem stems from gang versus gang versus police and military fights. The average citizen doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with it.

How does an "average citizen" not have a whole lot to do with it when the police and military that are supposed to be protecting them (and which are, I assume, composed of "average citizens") are getting slaughtered?

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 33):
Decriminalizing the drug trade, I fear, will just legitimize the cartels.

Correct. Hand them a victory on a silver platter.
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 36):
It is the producers that have lost ground in Columbia

They just moved back to Peru.
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:34 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Well, surprised it took all of two posts for someone to start demonizing the U.S. and proposing we surrender to these criminal thugs.

Are you seriously suggesting that this country's voracious appetite for cocaine is not partially to blame for all of this. It's basic supply and demand.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Yes, of course, it is all the big bad American's fault.

Of course not, but then he didn't actually say that did he? What he did say is that Americans are complicit, and you'd be lying if you argued otherwise. As long as America's voracious appetite for cocaine continues unabated, all Americans who use the stuff will be complicit in the drug war. Or are you suggesting that these guys would be in business if the market didn't exist? After all, it's easy to just pretend that it's never America's fault is it not?
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:42 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
How does an "average citizen" not have a whole lot to do with it when the police and military that are supposed to be protecting them (and which are, I assume, composed of "average citizens") are getting slaughtered?

Aside from voting people in office who maintain the current status quo, nothing really. Average citizens aren't causing the violence nor are the drug gangs very interested in shooting them up. Innocent people getting caught up in this are. . . "collateral".

[Edited 2010-08-30 07:44:51]
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:57 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 36):
Quoting santosdumont (Reply 35):
That's where we're at right now.

Once Columbia started extraditing their drug lords to the U.S. for prosecution the tide turned. No longer could Columbian Judges be bribed to give leinent sentences and no longer could prosecutors be bought. Since they were being shipped to the U.S. for trial that went out the window. It was after that happened that the Columbian government was able to gain control again.

But the Colombian cartels just didn't up and disappear. They have evolved and are now a political constituency just like any other.

Quoting dxing (Reply 36):
Quoting santosdumont (Reply 35):
The trafficking in persons problem could conceivably ease up. The traffic will continue as long as the voracious demand in the United States exists -- and all signs point to that status quo remaining in place.

That's true and it will be true whether drugs are legalized or not.

Correct. As long as morons with gobs of money think the best way to deal with personal problems is to snort cocaine, that won't change. The issue is deflating the criminal element of the drug trade.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff

Well, surprised it took all of two posts for someone to start demonizing the U.S. and proposing we surrender to these criminal thugs.

Arguably, surrender by the United States came a long time ago. There are entire sectors of the US (and European) entertainment and political industries that simply cannot keep that stuff out of their nose. They literally cannot live without the cartels. That fact makes the cartels unspeakably happy and willing to write off all the obstacles inherent in a clandestine enterprise as the cost of doing business.

[Edited 2010-08-30 08:03:52]
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PPVRA
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:40 pm

The trafficking in persons is a separate issue from drug trafficking. That they have often been operating together is a matter of convenience for both immigration and drug interests. Legalization of drugs would ease up maybe a little the human trafficking because you won't have the kind of resources the drug cartels bring to the table.

[Edited 2010-08-30 08:40:57]
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:04 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):

Unless, of course, you are a migrant worker just trying to make your way across the border to go become a gardener in the U.S. Then you get slaughtered-

As if being an illegal immigrant isnt enough to get you in trouble to begin with  
 
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RE: Violence In Mexico

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:27 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
2010 estimated murder rates for western hemisphere nations (above 8 per 100k consiered ''epidemic'')

Interesting list.

If I look at US states (instead of the US as a whole) it's pretty interesting too. The data I see includes "negligent manslaughter" in with murder.

Louisiana: 63.6 per 100k
4 other states before we even drop below 30.

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