TheCommodore
Topic Author
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Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:08 am

This was a legacy of our former PM Howard here in OZ. And by the looks of things its worked a treat with suicides etc.

Interesting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA. and other parts of the world where gun ownership is permitted ??

Any thoughts ?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/howar...s-saved-a-year-20100829-13xne.html

[Edited 2010-08-29 22:09:28]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:48 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

Impressive assuming it is right. Mind you still impressive even if only half right.

Assuming the economics are even a quarter right, it give an equally impressive return per gun bought back.

Now I will just go and find a bullet proof vest, some flame retardant and what else have I forgotten?   
 
johns624
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:02 pm

How could only 200 less suicides a year have a $500 million dollar economic impact? That's 2.5 million dollars per person. Considering that a lot of suicides are with people with money/employment problems, it seems like BS to me.
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:49 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 2):
How could only 200 less suicides a year have a $500 million dollar economic impact? That's 2.5 million dollars per person.

Here you go.

cneill@wla.ca

why not ask her? Or wait until the paper is published. Which area was your PhD in economics in BTW? You might have a point, hers was in education outcomes.
 
offloaded
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:14 pm

200 people, assume they were young, assume they had a decent job... 200 people x 35 working years x $71,500 (average during their working life) = $500,500,000.

Quite a few assumptions in my post though. Maybe they were all miners....

From Livingin-australia.com:

State Average - Annual Wage
Tasmania $55,103
South Australia $59,223
Northern Territory $61,771
Victoria $62,748
Queensland $63,866
New South Wales $65,707
Western Australia $70,210
Capital Territory $75,348

Australia’s best-paid workers are miners, with ordinary earnings averaging A$103,111 a year.

Average Full Time Ordinary Time Earnings February 2010 By Industry
Business Sector Average Annual Wage
Accommodation, Cafes and Restaurants $46,306
Retail Trade $48,703
Other Services $50,742
Arts and Recreation Services $56,971
Manufacturing $58,292
Transport, Postal, Warehousing $60,018
Health Care and Social Assistance $62,036
Wholesale Trade $62,457
Administrative and Support Services $62,884
Rental, Hiring and Real Estate Services $63,175
Construction $65,816
Public Administration and Safety $68,177
Education and Training $68,921
Electricity, Gas, Water and Waste Services $71,557
Financial and Insurance Services $76,487
Information Media and Telecommunications $77,033
Professional, Scientific and Technical Services $77,761
Mining $103,111
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Cadet57
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:46 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

You're wrong.

Taking guns away from legal, law abiding citizens is not the answer. I am curious how it has done for violent crime. Funny thing about gun laws. Criminals don't care about them.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:36 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
You're wrong.

He's wrong about what? No real opinion offered in the opening post either for or against gun ownership.

I'm not against gun ownership. But if the claimed cutback in suicide rates is real (and there's no other reason why that happened), then I'd say it's a legitimate point.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
I am curious how it has done for violent crime. Funny thing about gun laws. Criminals don't care about them.

Funny thing about guns over here, the police do care about them and they do not appreciate them in non licenced hands.

Get your information here:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07.

Murder is the predominant charge and has been throughout the 18-year data-collection period. In 2006-07, there were 230 murder charges, 28 manslaughter charges, one infanticide charge, and one unknown. The type of charge against an offender may change once the incident proceeds through the judicial process.

In 2006-07, there were 260 homicide instances, involving 266 victims and 296 offenders.

Note: The majority of homicide data presented below is derived from two main sources with different data collection cycles. The charts and tables derived from the Institute's National Homicide Monitoring Program data set is collected on a financial year cycle. The other charts and tables are based on ABS data which is collected on a calendar year cycle.


From one of the graphs:

The figure shows that although there have been fluctuations from year to year, the number of homicide incidents has shown a steady decline since the inception of the NHMP in 1989. 2006-07 saw the second-lowest number of homicide incidents in the collection period.
and
* The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968.

BTW in most cases we are able to tell the difference between murder and suicide although it does get tricky at times.   
 
Mudboy
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:48 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

Ok, my thoughts are:
common sense would say, if there are fewer cars on the road, there would be fewer deaths from car accidents.

If someone REALLY wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. In the states, where guns are more available, more people will use a gun to end their life. When I was in London on holiday, I could not count how many times the subway or train was delayed, due to someone jumping in front of it? On time it was 3 times in one day , I knew of. You don't hear about people jumping in front of trains as much in the US, because we have guns. So what would happen if there were fewer trains in the UK?
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 8):

If someone REALLY wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. In the states, where guns are more available, more people will use a gun to end their life. When I was in London on holiday, I could not count how many times the subway or train was delayed, due to someone jumping in front of it? On time it was 3 times in one day , I knew of. You don't hear about people jumping in front of trains as much in the US, because we have guns. So what would happen if there were fewer trains in the UK?

Perhaps you might like to read this

http://www.springerlink.com/content/760g24xg13575717/
Understanding suicide in Australian farmers

Fiona Judd, Henry Jackson, Caitlin Fraser, Greg Murray, Garry Robins and Angela Komiti

And this
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1614.2002.00975.x
Results: In the period 1988 to 1997, 921 suicides were identified. The majority of these suicides were farm managers (67.4%). Farm manager suicides occurred predominantly in older age groups (55 + years). In comparison agricultural labourer suicides were younger, with the majority of suicides occurring in the 15–39 years age group. The most common methods for both groups were firearms (particularly hunting rifles and shot guns), hanging and motor vehicle exhaust gas. These methods accounted for approximately 81% of all male farm suicides. Firearms accounted for 51% of male farm suicide, in comparison to 23% for the wider Australian male population for the same period. Estimated age standardized rates per 100 000 for male farm managers for the 10-year period ranged from 24.8 to 51.4. For male agricultural labourers these rates ranged from 23.5 to 41.9. Analyses also revealed a negative correlation (r = –0.75, p vent the general conclusions cited in the OP being the case.

You might also want to read Beyond Blue on the subject.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=105.898&oid=888

The prolonged drought that followed the gun buy back (not causal AFAIK) would have been expected to cause a rise in farm suicides.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:14 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Funny thing about guns over here, the police do care about them and they do not appreciate them in non licenced hands.

You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
He's wrong about what?

That banning guns was such a good idea.

As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

And iirc, the whole point of the Australian gun buy back was not to reduce the suicide rate, but rather to take guns off the streets, and once again, out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

[Edited 2010-08-30 09:17:18]
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
aloges
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

He gave you the data.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

RTFA:

Quote:
Whereas the earlier study had found an increase in suicides by other methods, suggesting substitution, Dr Neill's study found no evidence of substitution within any state.

''It is simply not the case that there was an increase in non-firearm suicide deaths in states that brought back more firearms,'' she said.

''I am confident these lives were saved.''

Most of Australia's 2100 suicides each year do not involve firearms, making the 200 lives saved as a result of the firearm ban small in relation to the suicide total.

So yes, despite everything the gun lobby tells you, the buy-back has had a noticeable effect.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:47 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The prolonged drought that followed the gun buy back (not causal AFAIK) would have been expected to cause a rise in farm suicides.



OK, I do not understand why farmers are the target group in Australia, is it because they own more guns, or are they the largest number of suicides by profession?

Coming from MS, which is very big in farming, I do not understand why farming is so stressful in Australia?

The age groups of suicides are the same in the US.

Who is to say, that the buy back of guns, had a direct effect on the number of suicides, how does one forcast the number of expected suicides?

Stay Safe!
 
Cadet57
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:47 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
So yes, despite everything the gun lobby tells you, the buy-back has had a noticeable effect.

So spending millions of dollars to take guns away from people law abiding citizens who may never ever contemplate suicide or committing a crime was worth it? To save 200 lives? A nanny state move at its finest.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:58 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
He's wrong about what?

That banning guns was such a good idea.

I understand what you meant. He just didn't say that anywhere in his post that I could see.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

True. However, there probably are a certain percentage of people who don't really want to kill themselves, but end up doing it because they have ready access to a gun.

Again, I don't think it warrants banning them. People who want to commit suicide have much larger problems than where to get the gun. But I also don't think it's black and white.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 12):
Who is to say, that the buy back of guns, had a direct effect on the number of suicides, how does one forcast the number of expected suicides?

You don't. But if you had an average of, say, 1000 suicides for the last 20 years, and then you ban guns, and the average suicide rate drops to 800 suicides a year for the next few years, there's probably a correlation.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Cadet57
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:06 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
He just didn't say that anywhere in his post that I could see.
Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
This was a legacy of our former PM Howard here in OZ. And by the looks of things its worked a treat with suicides etc.

Implied to me he is happy with the gun ban.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
but end up doing it because they have ready access to a gun.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A gun is only the mechanism thru which they killed themselves. As an example, There are 5 rifles in our house. All are in a locked gun safe. If I wanted to off myself it would take me less time to find a knife, some rope or a handful of pills.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:29 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Interesting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA. and other parts of the world where gun ownership is permitted ??

If you look at the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

You really see no correlation at all between gun rights and no gun rights and suicide rates. There are several EU nations with higher suicide rates than the US, while several with lower rates as well. Australia is just slightly lower than the US.

[Edited 2010-08-30 10:30:00]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mudboy
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):

If you look at the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

You really see no correlation at all between gun rights and no gun rights and suicide rates. There are several EU nations with higher suicide rates than the US, while several with lower rates as well. Australia is just slightly lower than the US.

[Edited 2010-08-30 10:30:00]

Wait, are those crickets I hear chirping????????

Great Post PPVRA  
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:22 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
Implied to me he is happy with the gun ban.

Fair enough. Just didn't seem that way to me.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A gun is only the mechanism thru which they killed themselves. As an example, There are 5 rifles in our house. All are in a locked gun safe. If I wanted to off myself it would take me less time to find a knife, some rope or a handful of pills.

I'm not saying it happens in the majority of cases, or even many. But I'm sure there are people around who are on the fence about suicide, and end up doing it because they have a gun in their hand.

I think that if I were contemplating suicide, it would be much more palatable to put a bullet in my brain than to try and slice my neck/wrists or hang myself.

But who knows - like I said, people who want to kill themselves have bigger problems than where to find the instrument of their death. I just don't think it's black and white.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
aloges
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:47 pm

If someone is going to kil himself, which of these options will seem most "attractive"?

- slow and extremely horrifying death by strangulation because your makeshift gallows didn't break your neck
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward
- a very quick death brought on by a large caliber bullet

Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
nteresting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA.

The U.S. also does gun buy backs as a matter of fact. It is not required to sell your guns to get destroyed.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:52 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward

Do these people get counted as suicide anyways? If not, you'd have to adjust the numbers for a fair comparison. Not much of a difference between being brain dead or completely dead.

[Edited 2010-08-30 12:56:51]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
BMI727
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):

Out of curiosity, how come the "just legalize it" argument people have with drugs doesn't apply to guns? If you crack down on guns, the people who use them to commit crimes are still going to have them right? Just like people who want drugs are able to get drugs.
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Springbok747
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

Exactly.

It is quite a labourious procedure to get a firearm license here, you have to attend a 1 day class and pass a written test about firearm safety, then become a member of a shooting club, and the club instructor has to sign you off on your competency. Then it gets sent off to the firearms branch (the local police), there is a 28 day cooling off period (in case you change your mind). After all that, you'll have to wait another week - 10 days to get your actual license. Then you can head off to the gun store..but you cant buy your dream gun yet...apply for another permit (this time for the actual firearm), wait 28 days, if approved (almost always the case), then you can have your gun! Then you will have to register that firearm at the local police station ($35 a firearm).

So as you can see..it is a long, bureaucratic process to get a gun legally.

Or you can skip the whole thing...

http://www.theleader.com.au/news/loc...-raid-nets-guns-bombs/1504859.aspx

Funny how any legislation only affects law abiding citizens..

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
- slow and extremely horrifying death by strangulation because your makeshift gallows didn't break your neck
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward
- a very quick death brought on by a large caliber bullet

Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.
Hanging was the predominant method of suicide in most countries included in the analysis (Table 1). The highest proportions were around 90% in men and 80% in women, as observed in eastern Europe (i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania). There were a number of deviations from the predominant pattern. As might be expected, firearm suicide was the most common method in the United States, but was also prevalent in Argentina, and Uruguay, although only men used this method in Argentina. Jumping from a height (designated as falls in the figures) plays an important role in small, predominantly urban societies such as Hong Kong SAR, Luxembourg and Malta. In contrast, in rural Latin American countries (e.g. El Salvador, Nicaragua and Peru), Asian countries (e.g. the Republic of Korea and Thailand) and also in Portugal, poisoning with pesticides was a major problem, notably among women. Poisoning with drugs was common in women from Canada, the Nordic countries and the United Kingdom. It also played an important role in male suicide in these countries.

AFAIK lots of people in Finland and parts of Europe have firearms..but that was not the preferred method of suicide.

Hanging was the most prevalent suicide method among both males (54.3%) and females (35.6%). For males, hanging was followed by firearms (9.7%) and poisoning by drugs (8.6%); for females, by poisoning by drugs (24.7%) and jumping from a high place (14.5%).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569832/
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ltbewr
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am

We just had a gun buying program this weekend in my home county in New Jersey. Something like 700 guns were collected with some getting cash fees of $50-150. While some guns primarly used by criminals were turned in, most were old, broken or otherwise unused hunting guns and handguns, WWII souveniers along with illegal fireworks, other dangerous weapons (a crossbow), bullits and shotgun shells. The county police will also check these guns for any criminal connections. Still this means these guns are no longer avilable to be stolen, sold to criminals or used in anger or accidently used.

[Edited 2010-08-30 17:12:05]
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:31 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 12):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The prolonged drought that followed the gun buy back (not causal AFAIK) would have been expected to cause a rise in farm suicides.

OK, I do not understand why farmers are the target group in Australia, is it because they own more guns, or are they the largest number of suicides by profession?

I cited farmers because they are a well known and studied problem group. There are other groups. In part their problems are well known because there are ABC programs specifically directed at country issues and partly because they have a specific Country/National party and a number of Independent MPs. If you were to ask Bob Katter (aka the Mad Katter, but not stupid either) he would tell you one of the causes is the Free Trade agreement with the US - and in relation to his sugar farmer constituents he has a point.

??Best to read a bit more about matters specific to Australia afore you mock the study or the supposed effects of the buyback.????

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.

Yes, well that does cover it. I wonder if Beyond Blue will send you a note of thanks for doing some of their work. Super post. What they need to think of is a male (mostly) who is in danger of losing the farm to the bank, nobody to talk to within 5 miles, sits down late at night with latest letter from the bank and .... your options flood through his mind. What is interesting is when most farms still have guns why the fall has ALSO occurred in that part of the population. Maybe the real cause is the work of organizations such as Beyond Blue. Mr Kennett seems to have been much better at that than he was at running Victoria.   

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):
Still this means these guns are no longer avilable to be stolen, sold to criminals or used in anger or accidently used.

   What can one say! WWII made my parent's house one without a gun for the first time in 20 years. A WWI S&W 0.45 was given to a cousin to take to France in 1940. Somehow, we managed without it!!! We never had any ammunition and the trigger pressure was huge for a 5 year old. It had been used to try to shoot rats in the trenches, but its owner commented that the bayonet was better for that (too). But I guess with a round it would have been good for the purposes discussed in this thread.
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:44 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 2):
How could only 200 less suicides a year have a $500 million dollar economic impact? That's 2.5 million dollars per person. Considering that a lot of suicides are with people with money/employment problems, it seems like BS to me.

I suggest you read the article, then you have a better understanding of how it stacks up.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
You're wrong.

No I'm not, you are!

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
Taking guns away from legal, law abiding citizens is not the answer.

To commit suicide in this country is illegal.

We are not talking about taking guns away from people who can demonstrate that they need to have a gun/s

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
I'm not against gun ownership. But if the claimed cutback in suicide rates is real (and there's no other reason why that happened), then I'd say it's a legitimate point.

You got it !!

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

Not according to this article it doesn't.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

You really need to control yourself.
According to the article, there was no marked increase in "other" methods of suicide. If you had read the article, them you would have seen that.

As for your other comments they are a load of BS.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
Implied to me he is happy with the gun ban.

Wrong, never said such a thing, did I ?
Please show me where I said anything like what your saying actually

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
He's wrong about what?

That banning guns was such a good idea.

I understand what you meant. He just didn't say that anywhere in his post that I could see.

That's right.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 18):

I'm not saying it happens in the majority of cases, or even many. But I'm sure there are people around who are on the fence about suicide, and end up doing it because they have a gun in their hand.

I think that if I were contemplating suicide, it would be much more palatable to put a bullet in my brain than to try and slice my neck/wrists or hang myself.

You got it. If it's there your gonna use it.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
If someone is going to kil himself, which of these options will seem most "attractive"?

- slow and extremely horrifying death by strangulation because your makeshift gallows didn't break your neck
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward
- a very quick death brought on by a large caliber bullet

Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.

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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
It is not required to sell your guns to get destroyed.

Pretty sure that's the same here to.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 23):
Funny how any legislation only affects law abiding citizens..

Tell me then please, why do we even have laws ?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):
We just had a gun buying program this weekend in my home county in New Jersey. Something like 700 guns were collected with some getting cash fees of $50-150. While some guns primarly used by criminals were turned in, most were old, broken or otherwise unused hunting guns and handguns, WWII souveniers along with illegal fireworks, other dangerous weapons (a crossbow), bullits and shotgun shells. The county police will also check these guns for any criminal connections. Still this means these guns are no longer avilable to be stolen, sold to criminals or used in anger or accidently used.

Great stuff.

700 less guns on the street, or lurking in the back shed, waiting for someone to stumble upon it years later. Or perhaps it might be stolen.

Never the less its a good thing.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
??Best to read a bit more about matters specific to Australia afore you mock the study or the supposed effects of the buyback.????

Great stuff.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Starbuk7
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:17 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
To commit suicide in this country is illegal.


So, if you commit suicide they will arrest you and put you in jail, I find that very odd.

I do agree with Cadet on this one though.
 
baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:50 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 27):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
To commit suicide in this country is illegal.


So, if you commit suicide they will arrest you and put you in jail, I find that very odd.

Ah my childhood memory was not failing me:

In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king and what was considered a shameful burial – typically with a stake through his heart and with a burial at a crossroad. Burials for felo de se typically took place at night, with no mourners or clergy present, and the location was often kept a secret by the authorities.

I think a stake through the heart could be a serious punishment, maybe?????

Felo de se, Latin for "felon of himself", is an archaic legal term meaning suicide. Wiki - of course!!!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:03 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 27):
So, if you commit suicide they will arrest you and put you in jail, I find that very odd.

This will shed a little light on the topic.

Cant seem to find any info on my state of NSW in Australia, but I'm pretty sure that if you attempt suicide and are unsuccessful you may be charged by the police, obviously if your are successful at it then that's another story.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ad/2501/is-suicide-against-the-law

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king and what was considered a shameful burial – typically with a stake through his heart and with a burial at a crossroad. Burials for felo de se typically took place at night, with no mourners or clergy present, and the location was often kept a secret by the authorities.

Very interesting indeed.
As they say, you learn every day.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:14 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
To commit suicide in this country is illegal.

Eh? Come again? If it is illegal, then how do you punish the person who committed suicide if he is.. ahem.... dead.   
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PPVRA
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:01 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
Tell me then please, why do we even have laws ?

And here I thought they were only suppose to affect criminals. . . silly me!!  
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:35 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
To commit suicide in this country is illegal.

Eh? Come again? If it is illegal, then how do you punish the person who committed suicide if he is.. ahem.... dead.

This is the law, up until recently, although it is one of those "really ever used laws" and obviously one that hes no outcome.
It may have been annulled now but I cant find any info on that.

CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 31A
Suicide and attempt to commit suicide
31A Suicide and attempt to commit suicide

The rule of law that it is a crime for a person to commit, or to attempt to commit suicide.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Springbok747
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:13 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):

Tell me then please, why do we even have laws ?

Did I mention anywhere that we should not have laws?!  

Any law affects only law abiding people. We can have all the laws in the world (not just related to weapons and firearms), but people can simply choose to ignore these laws..as illustrated by that newspaper article I posted earlier.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:25 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
AirframeAS

But you still didn't answer this:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
how do you punish the person who committed suicide if he is.. ahem.... dead.

Well??
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baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:31 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
how do you punish the person who committed suicide if he is.. ahem.... dead.

Well??

An answer to that too. The old tradition was they were not buried in hallowed ground thus sentencing their soul to eternal purgatory or probably worse depending on your church.

You will probably find that suicide is illegal in most Muslim countries too, it is certainly forbidden in the Quran.*

Taking a slight liberty for my comrade, neither The Commodore nor Baroque take any responsibility for logic in these systems, we are just reporting things as they are!      
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:26 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 33):
Did I mention anywhere that we should not have laws?

What I meant to say was this, but obviously didn't.

The law is not only there for the law abiding as you say, its also there for the guilty/non law abiding

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
But you still didn't answer this:

Baroque already said it, in reply 28. And again for you in reply 35.

So again for you...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king and what was considered a shameful burial – typically with a stake through his heart and with a burial at a crossroad. Burials for felo de se typically took place at night, with no mourners or clergy present, and the location was often kept a secret by the authorities.

I think a stake through the heart could be a serious punishment, maybe?????

Felo de se, Latin for "felon of himself", is an archaic legal term meaning suicide. Wiki - of course!!!

States clearly what the punishment was.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:56 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
States clearly what the punishment was.

No, it doesn't. It states this.....

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king..............................................

I want to know what Aussie law says, not the English law. Isn't Australia no longer English ruled??? Isn't Australia independent now?

And please.... provide a source on the law itself, not some hearsay response.

[Edited 2010-08-31 21:57:38]
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TheCommodore
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
And please.... provide a source on the law itself, not some hearsay response.

This is what I can find on the net regarding suicide in Australia.

"Attempted Suicide is now an offence only in the Northern Territory."

The site is about euthanasia, but it also covers suicide.

http://www.qrtl.org.au/Euth%20Laws%20In%20Australia.htm

Believe me I know about it through a family experience, we were clearly told by the police at the time, that to commit or attempt to commit suicide was illegal. That was over 20 something years ago now, so maybe the law has changed.
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baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:49 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king..............................................

I want to know what Aussie law says, not the English law. Isn't Australia no longer English ruled??? Isn't Australia independent now?

Might be news, but Australia inherited English Common Law. So unless something is specifically changed it like as not remains under ECL. You might be surprised to find how much ECL remains one way or another in the US.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
And please.... provide a source on the law itself, not some hearsay response.

Que. That was English common law. Just because it was not acted on does not mean it was still not in existence.

Maybe start by reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

On a slightly different topic, penalties related to suicide are not a dead issue to coin a phrase due to problems related to assisting suicide and euthanasia.
 
speedygonzales
Posts: 526
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:45 pm

I think the buy-back is a very good idea. We haven't had the same in Norway, but we've had a firearm-amnesty thwice, where people could hand in illegal guns and ammo without risking criminal charges. The first time (01.09.03-30.09.04) 35724 guns and 22t ammo was turned in. The second time (01.05.-30.09.08) 13660 guns and 10,7t ammo was turned in.
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baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:03 pm

Why not refer to the Government about legal matters?

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/legal_system.html

The common law system, as developed in the United Kingdom, forms the basis of Australian jurisprudence. It is distinct from the civil law systems that operate in Europe, South America and Japan, which are derived from Roman law. Other countries that employ variations of the common law system are the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Malaysia and India.

Funny thing that.   
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:32 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
And please.... provide a source on the law itself, not some hearsay response.

Que. That was English common law. Just because it was not acted on does not mean it was still not in existence.

Maybe start by reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

Wikipedia is a hearsay response. Try again.

Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 40):
we've had a firearm-amnesty thwice, where people could hand in illegal guns and ammo without risking criminal charges. The first time (01.09.03-30.09.04) 35724 guns and 22t ammo was turned in. The second time (01.05.-30.09.08) 13660 guns and 10,7t ammo was turned in.

Wow, that is a lot of firepower!
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Aesma
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
Out of curiosity, how come the "just legalize it" argument people have with drugs doesn't apply to guns? If you crack down on guns, the people who use them to commit crimes are still going to have them right? Just like people who want drugs are able to get drugs.

Because you can be a drug addict, but not a gun addict. Because drugs are used for fun or "at worst" killing yourself, whereas guns are used to kill others. And finally, because the market for drugs is very large, be they legal or illegal, whereas the market for guns, when they're illegal like here in France, is much smaller.

And when most people don't have guns, most petty criminals don't have guns either, because they don't need them, and they're hard to get. Hardcore criminals have them, sure, but that's mostly it.
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baroque
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:31 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):
Wikipedia is a hearsay response. Try again.

And are we to be told that DFAT is hearsay. Why not try again with an objection that is better founded?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 43):
And when most people don't have guns, most petty criminals don't have guns either, because they don't need them, and they're hard to get. Hardcore criminals have them, sure, but that's mostly it.

Very true, and when gun ownership is not the norm, even the hardcore crims have to be careful about advertising that they have a gun, otherwise the wallopers will be down on them with more than usual speed. Nothing gets the attention of our police quite the way an armed crim does.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:23 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 44):
Why not try again with an objection that is better founded?

I have nothing to try. Why not provide ME with a real law to back that up that is currently on Australia's books. Link me with a URL that goes to Australia's government website that shows the actual law.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 43):
Because you can be a drug addict, but not a gun addict.

That is not true, the second part. There are a lot of people here in the U.S. who just love buying guns and sporting them out on the range weekly.
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Ken777
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RE: Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year

Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:10 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
Taking guns away from legal, law abiding citizens is not the answer. I am curious how it has done for violent crime. Funny thing about gun laws. Criminals don't care about them.

Well, since most "illegal guns" in the hands of criminals come from home burglaries the reduction in guns in the honest population will lower criminals opportunities to steal guns.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
That banning guns was such a good idea.

For Australia it was a good idea.

It came after a mass shooting, gaining support of the population.

The isolation of Australia also reduces the illegal influx that we can have.

Overall I feel safer walking around Sydney than I have in New York.

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