CaliAtenza
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Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:52 pm

I mean, we all know his past record (wye river, the planned dismantling of the Oslo records), but for some reason, he seems sincere this time. Im surprised he even agreed to the talks....maybe Obama put some pressure on him  . I seriously think that in the Middle East, its only the hard liners that can eventually come up with an agreement on something (see Rabin, Beign/Sadat, et al ). I know the PA side has to be corraled, and Hamas is the big elephant in the room...but i see something happening this time.

But my lingering question though is why is Iran involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? They arent Arab, they are Persian...and they have numerous problems within their own country. Are they just on the bandwagon because the mullahs have nothing else to do?
 
directorguy
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:06 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
But my lingering question though is why is Iran involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? They arent Arab, they are Persian...and they have numerous problems within their own country. Are they just on the bandwagon because the mullahs have nothing else to do?

It's partly a power dynamics thing. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes beyond religion, ethnicity or simple geography. A key player is the United States, and they're not Arab, or Muslim or even in the Middle East. They're basically one of the three/four principal players when it comes to brokering a solution.
Iran, however, is very much in the Middle East and has very real security concerns of its own (i.e. they don't like a nuclear Israel). At first glance both Iran and the majority of the Palestinians are Muslim-but different brands, one Shi'a, the other Sunni. These divides are a problem unto themselves, however in the face of a common enemy (Israel) Islam as a unifying factor overrides various sectarian divides. Iran wants to be a regional power-it already is, and it's increased involvement in the Palestinian question is a way of consolidating its regional position. Iran may have internal problem of its own, but they're not so overwhelming as to deter Tehran from making its presence felt.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:12 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 1):

It's partly a power dynamics thing. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes beyond religion, ethnicity or simple geography. A key player is the United States, and they're not Arab, or Muslim or even in the Middle East. They're basically one of the three/four principal players when it comes to brokering a solution.
Iran, however, is very much in the Middle East and has very real security concerns of its own (i.e. they don't like a nuclear Israel). At first glance both Iran and the majority of the Palestinians are Muslim-but different brands, one Shi'a, the other Sunni. These divides are a problem unto themselves, however in the face of a common enemy (Israel) Islam as a unifying factor overrides various sectarian divides. Iran wants to be a regional power-it already is, and it's increased involvement in the Palestinian question is a way of consolidating its regional position. Iran may have internal problem of its own, but they're not so overwhelming as to deter Tehran from making its presence felt.

But the US is the world's sole superpower (and Israel's main ally)...Iran is a regional player. And it was only after the Iranian Revolution that they sided with the Palestinians. Eventually, if the rest of the muslim world recognizes Israel..Iran is gonna have to as well.
 
Gingersnap
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:57 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 2):
But the US is the world's sole superpower

I'm sure some folk may disagree with you there  

But as far as Iran goes...well it's Israel so one almost expects them to be involved somewhere along the lines.

[Edited 2010-09-05 09:58:38]
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
directorguy
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:05 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 2):
But the US is the world's sole superpower (and Israel's main ally)...Iran is a regional player. And it was only after the Iranian Revolution that they sided with the Palestinians. Eventually, if the rest of the muslim world recognizes Israel..Iran is gonna have to as well.

I don't see how in the short-term any Muslim countries will recognise Israel. They are very conservative when it comes to dealing with Israel, and as such, it would require an extraordinary event to bring about recognition of Israel. Another interesting scenario is if Israel sides with the Arab world against Iran. Already some events have hinted at that possibility. I always think of the Iran-US-Israel-Palestine issue as a power dynamic fuelled primarily by the need to be top dog. Religious/ethnic/sectarian/cultural divides are of secondary importance, albeit running parallel to the main factors that determine said power struggle.
 
baroque
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:08 pm

You would think not if this is what actually happens.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...current-settlement-freeze-1.312340

Barak: Israel unlikely to extend current settlement freeze
Freeze on West Bank construction will end as scheduled on Sept. 26 - but may continue in another form, defense minister says, hinting that Israel may compromise to keep talks alive.


Abbas is not going to get a great reception if it appears he went to Washington to agree to continued building.

Interesting discussion at

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/talk-to-us-bibi-1.312216

The ground rules are clear. On the Israeli side you must not agree to a withdrawal, Jerusalem must not be divided, no returning of refugees, and don't relinquish water resources or the Jordan valley. On the Palestinian side there is no giving up on a single inch of land but only minor land swaps, the refugee issue can be discussed, East Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine, and no settlement will remain in Palestinian territory.

......
Without this honest conversation with the Israeli public, Bibi will remain the matador, who with elegance and style drives the sword into the process, blames the Palestinians and declares that he won.


Hope that is not prophetic but it probably is.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):

I don't see how in the short-term any Muslim countries will recognise Israel. They are very conservative when it comes to dealing with Israel, and as such, it would require an extraordinary event to bring about recognition of Israel. Another interesting scenario is if Israel sides with the Arab world against Iran. Already some events have hinted at that possibility. I always think of the Iran-US-Israel-Palestine issue as a power dynamic fuelled primarily by the need to be top dog. Religious/ethnic/sectarian/cultural divides are of secondary importance, albeit running parallel to the main factors that determine said power struggle.

well the Arab League has said that if the conflict is solved, then they will recognize Israel.
 
baroque
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:55 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 6):
well the Arab League has said that if the conflict is solved, then they will recognize Israel.

I suspect they have this funny idea that solving the conflict involves as far as the Arab League is concerned involves removing all existing settlements let alone continuing building new ones even at a reduced rate. So you are correct in principle, but DG will be right as things pan out - I fear! As someone wrote a while ago, what part of NO does Bibi not understand?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:04 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Simple answer: No. Bibi is weak, he bows down to the demands of the radical right wing elements and of the religious nutjobs in his government and within the country. He knows that whatever he does that even looks like a concession to the Palestinians, the religious factions in the government (e.g. Shas and particularly the party of Avigdor Lieberman) will break up the coalition and it's election time again.

If there's an election, the only choice Likud has to stay in power is either a Grand Coalition with Kadima (which somehow seems unlikely, given the bridges that Sharon probably burned when he left Likud to form Kadima), or a multiparty alliance with religious parties and other right wingers. Not knowing about the dynamics of Israeli politics, my guess is that if early elections are up, the best chance the peace negotiations have are with Kadima and Likud in a Grand Coalition, because it strikes me as the more moderate choice.

[Edited 2010-09-05 11:06:42]
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:13 pm

The thing i dont get about Jerusalem is this: Why does Israel want the East side? Its all Arab neighborhoods anyways save for the Temple Mount. Maybe the UN or a 3rd party like the Swiss can administer Temple Mount/Al Asqa. The Right of Return is DOA though. No way Israel is gonna let those people come back to Israel proper..so i think the Palestinians should drop that point. As for settlements, either they get evacuated or those people can stay on in a future Palestinian state...i really think that needs to be the line here.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):

Simple answer: No. Bibi is weak, he bows down to the demands of the radical right wing elements and of the religious nutjobs in his government and within the country. He knows that whatever he does that even looks like a concession to the Palestinians, the religious factions in the government (e.g. Shas and particularly Avigdor Lieberman) will break up the coalition and it's election time again.

If there's an election, the only choice Likud has to stay in power is either a Grand Coalition with Kadima (which somehow seems unlikely, given the bridges that Sharon probably burned when he left Likud to form Kadima), or a multiparty alliance with religious parties and other right wingers. Not knowing about the dynamics of Israeli politics, my guess is that if early elections are up, the best chance the peace negotiations have are with Kadima and Likud in a Grand Coalition, because it strikes me as the more moderate choice.

Well what do the Israeli people really want? I mean i think they are tired of years of conflict, bombings, counter-attacks, war, etc..etc. Im sure the same is with the Palestinian people as well. I think everyone just wants to get on with their lives and make a buck, like the rest of the world.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:17 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
I don't see how in the short-term any Muslim countries will recognise Israel. They are very conservative when it comes to dealing with Israel, and as such, it would require an extraordinary event to bring about recognition of Israel. Another interesting scenario is if Israel sides with the Arab world against Iran. Already some events have hinted at that possibility. I always think of the Iran-US-Israel-Palestine issue as a power dynamic fuelled primarily by the need to be top dog. Religious/ethnic/sectarian/cultural divides are of secondary importance, albeit running parallel to the main factors that determine said power struggle.

Well, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, and (I believe) Mauretania all recognize Israel and are Muslim countries. Morocco has for quite some time had a liaison office in Tel Aviv. I think the really interesting issue is one generally not talked about: Israel's unofficial relations with Saudi Arabia. And, if Israel chooses to strike Iran's nuclear program, I don't think the House of Saud will be that unhappy.

For what it's worth:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article143716.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/world/middleeast/02diplo.html

Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):


Hope that is not prophetic but it probably is.

While I really do want to remain somewhat optimistic about the talks this time, sadly I think you're right.

The 'four basic issues' still remain:

-Right of return for Palestinian refugees and their children: This is simply not going to happen. Ever. It's possible that a form of compensation could be worked out and, maybe, some kind of statement from Israel regretting the mistreatment of Palestinians during the 1948 conflict. But that's it.
-East Jerusalem as a capital for Palestine: Even a small precinct in EJ would be so symbolic for Arabs everywhere. Also, unfettered access to the Dome of the Rock for prayer would be a very good gesture on Israel's part.
-Dismantling of the settlements in Palestine: This will happen in due course I think. The impetus for that would be a decision by the Israeli government to abandon the settlers (who, let's face it, are one of the main drivers in this conflict). Either they move back to Israel or they become Palestinian citizens and take their chances. I think the choice would be an easy one. This option really is in Israel's longer-term interests.
-The borders: I think they have to be substantially 1967 borders, perhaps with some land swaps.

Solving any of these vexing issues would be a huge win, but resolving all of them during these meetings would be a miracle. But, hey, look at those miners in Chile...that's a miracle.

-
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:30 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 2):
Eventually, if the rest of the muslim world recognizes Israel..Iran is gonna have to as well.

Not really. Many have said that once the Israel-Palestine issue is over they will extend recognition to Israel, but that by no means is compulsory.

I bring this:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 6):
well the Arab League has said that if the conflict is solved, then they will recognize Israel.

And the reality is that though the Arab League (yes I know that Muslim world and Arab League are two different things) has the deal that once the conflict is solved they'll extend recognition to Israel, there are still some concerns. Take Syria. Would Syria just extend recognition and offer peace when Syria is still trying to re-take the Golan Heights? Syria would just see it as one hurdle less.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
will break up the coalition and it's election time again.

I think that if Netanyahu had a majority he would have proceeded with the negotiations a long time ago.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:48 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 11):
And the reality is that though the Arab League (yes I know that Muslim world and Arab League are two different things) has the deal that once the conflict is solved they'll extend recognition to Israel, there are still some concerns. Take Syria. Would Syria just extend recognition and offer peace when Syria is still trying to re-take the Golan Heights? Syria would just see it as one hurdle less.

Well the Syrian negotiations have to be seperate in this case.
 
racko
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:03 pm

As far as I remember Olmert was very close to reach an agreement with Syria. That probably wouldn't be the problem.

A bigger problem might be that Bibi has no control over his coalition: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...not-see-middle-east-peace-1.312364
 
kachum
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Netanyahu is the prime minister of Israel, not A.net. As such he should do what is best for Israel, and not what is best by any other popular opinion, be it of A.net, US, UN etc. And he should follow doctor's principle: when in doubt, do not do anything at all, so that no harm is done. There is no rush. Then everything will be A OK.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:15 pm

Quoting kachum (Reply 14):
As such he should do what is best for Israel, and not what is best by any other popular opinion, be it of A.net, US, UN etc

Then I suppose Hitler should have remained as Fuhrer of Germany. After all, he was doing what is best for Germany, and not by the US or Britain. Yet the world recognizes that existing and further Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal since those lands are meant for a Palestinian state.

Quoting kachum (Reply 14):
when in doubt, do not do anything at all, so that no harm is done. There is no rush. Then everything will be A OK.

   Problem! Nothing's been done for far too long. Someone has to break the ice and whether Israel likes it or not, they must return to their designated 1967 borders. The issue here is also a political one. The second a Prime Minister accedes to return land his political career will be ruined but that's a risk politicians have faced and one that Israeli politicians must eventually face one way or another.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
kachum
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
Problem! Nothing's been done for far too long. Someone has to break the ice and whether Israel likes it or not, they must return to their designated 1967 borders

So returning to 1967 borders is just "breaking the ice", or, since you brought Hitler in here, "the final solution"?

[Edited 2010-09-05 15:18:48]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
I suspect they have this funny idea that solving the conflict involves as far as the Arab League is concerned involves removing all existing settlements let alone continuing building new ones even at a reduced rate. So you are correct in principle, but DG will be right as things pan out - I fear! As someone wrote a while ago, what part of NO does Bibi not understand?

Yes I agree, I think this is central to the entire process in the peace talks. If Abbas can't take Israels word that all settlements will stop and some if not all are handed back over time then I'm not sure we will get the desired outcome that we all hope for out of these talks.

Quoting kachum (Reply 14):
There is no rush. Then everything will be A OK.

There should be plenty of "rush" as you put it. And NO, there is not plenty of time either I don't think. The world at large is really sick and tired of the instability caused by Israels problems with its neighbors. I think we ALL want it fixed ASAP don't you ?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
Yet the world recognizes that existing and further Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal since those lands are meant for a Palestinian state.

Exactly, hence my point above.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
Problem! Nothing's been done for far too long. Someone has to break the ice and whether Israel likes it or not, they must return to their designated 1967 borders. The issue here is also a political one. The second a Prime Minister accedes to return land his political career will be ruined but that's a risk politicians have faced and one that Israeli politicians must eventually face one way or another.

Bingo, said very well.
  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
kachum
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:39 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
I think we ALL want it fixed ASAP don't you ?

I suspect we all want different things. I think it should be fixed right and in a way that guarantees Israel's security. ASAP is secondary to that.

Btw if you want something ASAP you should be prepared to pay the premium.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:12 am

Quoting kachum (Reply 16):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
Problem! Nothing's been done for far too long. Someone has to break the ice and whether Israel likes it or not, they must return to their designated 1967 borders

So returning to 1967 borders is just "breaking the ice", or, since you brought Hitler in here, "the final solution"?

Look at it this way. You moved into an urban zone and right next to your house is an empty space that is meant for a person to build his/her house. The land developer (UN) gives you control of that piece of land but states the land is completely for another person. You're just supervising it. Every day you move your fence a little more inside that piece of land. Should you expect the person that's coming to build the house to be happy with what he's got? Will you say that he's lucky to have any land at all? I think not.

Let's say this person likes to throw loud late night parties and say it's the Palestinians equivalent of launching rockets. Is it YOUR position to deny this person the piece of land that is meant for him just because of the parties he throws? NO. What do you do? You call law enforcement. You don't take matters into your own hands, which is the lesson Israel needs to learn here.

So to answer your question, the return to 1967 borders is breaking the ice as there are still many other concerns for the Palestinians. What about a collective and mutual security agreement where both sides will abstain from violence to one another? Economic cooperation with the neighboring countries? Palestinian refugees? Palestinian settlements? There's no need for a "final solution" here. Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:37 am

Quoting kachum (Reply 18):
I suspect we all want different things.

I dare say that's part of the problem

Quoting kachum (Reply 18):
I think it should be fixed right and in a way that guarantees Israel's security.

Well, not only Israels security, and what of the others in the region ? what about security for them too ?
You see, it must be a fair and equatable compromise between the tow sides, not always in Israels favor, wouldn't you agree ?

Quoting kachum (Reply 18):
Btw if you want something ASAP you should be prepared to pay the premium.

Um.... How long has this been going on now ?

Since 1967 or before that or sometime after that. Whatever, it's a long time in anyone's book. Hardly something that you should be made to pay a premium for after this long.

BTW, just what do you call premium ?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.

Yes, as you say it should be simple, but human emotions run hot and sensibility dose not always prevail at times.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
kachum
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
So to answer your question, the return to 1967 borders is breaking the ice as there are still many other concerns for the Palestinians. What about a collective and mutual security agreement where both sides will abstain from violence to one another? Economic cooperation with the neighboring countries? Palestinian refugees? Palestinian settlements? There's no need for a "final solution" here. Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.

Hm, what an offer. Like I said, no rush. Maybe in the next generation.

[Edited 2010-09-05 20:56:53]

[Edited 2010-09-05 20:58:12]
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:51 am

What on offer is peace, unless you think that is not good enough.
Look at history, no big power stayed that way for ever, do you have any guaranties for the next generation in Israel or any other part in the ME?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:56 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):


So to answer your question, the return to 1967 borders is breaking the ice as there are still many other concerns for the Palestinians. What about a collective and mutual security agreement where both sides will abstain from violence to one another? Economic cooperation with the neighboring countries? Palestinian refugees? Palestinian settlements? There's no need for a "final solution" here. Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.

Hamas has to agree..and so far (the shooting of the Israeli settlers last week), they dont seem to agree the talks are going to go anywhere.
 
TheCol
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:09 am

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 6):
well the Arab League has said that if the conflict is solved, then they will recognize Israel.

Good luck with that. The extremists aren't going to simply disappear. The only thing different will be more Arab on Arab violence.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 11):
Would Syria just extend recognition and offer peace

Syria will do what Iran tells them to do.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 12):
Well the Syrian negotiations have to be seperate in this case.

Don't expect any peace negotiations with Syria. There will be no peace in the region until Iran is taken out of the picture.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
baroque
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:14 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 24):
Don't expect any peace negotiations with Syria. There will be no peace in the region until Iran is taken out of the picture.

I suppose you realise you are inviting the rewrite to "There will be no peace in the region until both Israel and Iran are taken out of the picture"?
 
ly001
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:43 am

I think the question of the thread should be: " Can Mahhmud Abbas actually do it? Can the Palestinianes finally get to a decision?" Histoory in the Palestinian side has shown through history that they are not capeable of getting a final decision of ending the conflict and to recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people. No leader in the Palestinian side will take this brave decision that will also has to com with a concession. The oposition Netanyahu has is not even close to what Abbas has. He has presure not to proceed with peace from so many parts such as Hamas (already murdered 4 Israeli and 2 other attacks since the begging of the peace talks but of caurse who cares), Iran, Syria, Lybya and so many more extrimest from the Arab world.
I think Netanyahu can do it as History has shown that Israel is willing to give back land for peace. Returning land for peace was made from the Licud right party. Who would have believed that Begin will return land and remove the settelments from Sinai for peace? Who would have believed that Sharon would remove all the settelors from Gaza? It is easier for the Licud party to make peace because they will have the support from the oposition parties. History shows that Israel would make all neccessery steps for peace that will ensure the security of Israel. Without ensuring the security of Israel, Israel will not take concessions for peace.
What amazes me in this thread (actually not really amazes me) is that people here allready decided that if the peace talks will not succeed it the Israelis fault.
 
ly001
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:57 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
So to answer your question, the return to 1967 borders is breaking the ice as there are still many other concerns for the Palestinians. What about a collective and mutual security agreement where both sides will abstain from violence to one another? Economic cooperation with the neighboring countries? Palestinian refugees? Palestinian settlements? There's no need for a "final solution" here. Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.

Do you mean steps like removing settelments from Gaza for breaking the ice?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
Well, not only Israels security, and what of the others in the region ? what about security for them too ?
You see, it must be a fair and equatable compromise between the tow sides, not always in Israels favor, wouldn't you agree ?

If the other side has demand for security then they can put it on the table for negociation. Who said they can't?
 
edka
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:09 am

Quoting ly001 (Reply 26):
What amazes me in this thread (actually not really amazes me) is that people here allready decided that if the peace talks will not succeed it the Israelis fault.


Don't be surprised, its always easy to blame Israel.

The Palestinians are more dysfunctional and disjointed than ever, with outside forces such as Syria and Iran heavily involved in supporting hostile Hamas...
We all know what Israel needs to do to achieve peace, and I believe Israel can/will do it, despite all the difficulties from the religious/right wing parties.

The REAL question today is this : Can Palestinians (Abbas) actually do it?

Sadly, I doubt it very much...

Saying that, both parties should try their hardest to achieve or agree as much as possible.
 
slz396
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:44 am

Everybody in Israel CAN do it, they just have to be MADE to do it by the US President.

The content of the future Palestinian-Israeli agreement is clear from the start:

Israel will have to give up all of Gaza and the West Bank and dismantle settlements there (apart maybe from those that can be included in Israel by simple and small border corrections which are then compensated elsewhere) while also giving up most of East Jerusalem (with a settlement for the Temple Mount). Otherwise they don't offer a viable territory to the Palestinians to found their state on.

Palestinians will have the give up the right to return to Israel as well as all demands for compensation and will have to accept that parts of East Jerusalem will not be entirely Palestinian (notably Temple Mount) as well as agree to some modest border corrections to include some settlements in Israel, so that Israel no longer feels at risk and can look at a homogenuous territory as well.

Let's hope Obama puts his full weight behind a peace plan, so peace can finally come between Palestinians and Israeli and in a second stage also between Israel and most of the moderate Arab countries.... it would make the world a much safer place as it would solve one of the most-dividing cultural, ethnical, religious and even ethical problems of the 20th century for good!

[Edited 2010-09-06 02:48:26]
 
Severnaya
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:14 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 2):
But the US is the world's sole superpower

No, the US is by far not the only superpower in the world. You seem to forget the EU and the BRIC countries.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
Yes I agree, I think this is central to the entire process in the peace talks. If Abbas can't take Israels word that all settlements will stop and some if not all are handed back over time then I'm not sure we will get the desired outcome that we all hope for out of these talks.

It's actually more the reverse, how much is Abbas' word worth? Does he have control over the Gaza strip? And does he have control over the Qassam and Katyusha rockets?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
The world at large is really sick and tired of the instability caused by Israels problems with its neighbors.

You are generalizing, it would be better for you to say 'i'm really sick and tired of the instability caused by Israels problems with its neighbors', but not for me!

Quoting ly001 (Reply 26):
I think Netanyahu can do it as History has shown that Israel is willing to give back land for peace. Returning land for peace was made from the Licud right party. Who would have believed that Begin will return land and remove the settelments from Sinai for peace? Who would have believed that Sharon would remove all the settelors from Gaza? It is easier for the Licud party to make peace because they will have the support from the oposition parties. History shows that Israel would make all neccessery steps for peace that will ensure the security of Israel. Without ensuring the security of Israel, Israel will not take concessions for peace.

  
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
Quokka
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:13 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
I don't see how in the short-term any Muslim countries will recognise Israel.


Two countries, Egypt and Jordan, already have. Turkey has as well, although officially it is not a Muslim State despite the majority of the population being Muslim. The King of Morocco has been an intermediary in several negotiations between representatives of Israel and Arab States.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 9):
The thing i dont get about Jerusalem is this: Why does Israel want the East side?


Because some Israeli politicians have made it clear that they have no intention of giving up the West Bank. A Palestinian State with East Jerusalem does not make sense if all that remains of Palestine is the Gaza Strip with possibly some additional neighbouring land as a "land swap".

Israel's relinquishing of Sinai was a bit different to relinquishing the West Bank. Firstly, Sinai belonged to Egypt, a country with a large standing army which, although defeated previously, remained a real threat. Secondly, the International pressure on Israel (including from the US) to give up Sinai was far greater than pressure to give up the West Bank today. Reaching a deal with Egypt cut off a lot of support for the Palestinians so the price was considered worth it. The threat posed by the Palestinians is minimal. Yes, a rocket is launched every now and then, but life goes on a normal with minimal disruption. That millions of tourists visit Israel each year is evidence of that. The retaliatory strikes by Israel have a far greater impact than anything the Palestinians can mount.

No doubt Israel desires peace. But does Israel want a two state solution? They certainly don't want a single state based on everyone being treated equally. In the past the PLO and later Hamas have said that they are prepared to recognise Israel and accept a two state solution. The sticking points have been Israel's insistence on Israel being a Jewish state and not accepting the right of return. Issues of weaponry, rubbery boarders can all be negotiated, but on those two issues Israel remains inflexible. Ethnic cleansing was essential for the creation of Israel and remains essential to its survival as a Jewish state for the simple reason that Arabs, whether Muslim or Christian, have for a long time outnumbered Jews in the Middle East.

To be honest I am not optimistic about any deal in the short term. Israel has no need to move and the Palestinians have virtually nothing left to give up. The US remains Israel's staunchest supporter, not only politically but financially. That is not going to change whatever Obama does to encourage dialogue. G W Bush had hoped for a solution before the end of his term in office. No doubt Obama wants the same, but will he serve another term and if not, will the next US President follow the same path?
 
kachum
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:34 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 29):
Everybody in Israel CAN do it, they just have to be MADE to do it by the US President.

This is very naive
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:51 pm

Quoting kachum (Reply 32):
This is very naive

No it isn't.

if Obama decides to play the music, Israel MUST dance to it, it's as simple as that...

Let's hope Obama is as resolved on peace in the middle east as he was on his health care reform, then we might indeed see a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as capital before the end of his term.
 
kachum
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Quoting slz396 (Reply 33):
Obama decides to play the music, Israel MUST dance to it, it's as simple as that...

I guess then "we ALL" should take it up with Obama when the whole thing is not resolved ASAP.

[Edited 2010-09-06 07:16:18]
 
kachum
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:29 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
So to answer your question, the return to 1967 borders is breaking the ice as there are still many other concerns for the Palestinians. What about a collective and mutual security agreement where both sides will abstain from violence to one another? Economic cooperation with the neighboring countries? Palestinian refugees? Palestinian settlements? There's no need for a "final solution" here. Simply every country to their designated borders and all land taken during war, returned.


If you want to throw the refugees issue in there, don't forget about these refugees.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=186742
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:58 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
They certainly don't want a single state based on everyone being treated equally.

Nice post. The single state should frighten the bejabers out of them, but somehow it does not. I guess with the armoury available, they will be able to run a single state AND avoid the apartheid accusation.  
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:04 pm

A hard pro-Israel, 'right' wing politcan may be the only one in Israel that can do it. Netanyahu is defentiely in that category. I think another major factor that may move these talks is that none of the leaders on both sides are veterans of the founding of Israel and few involved in the 1967 War. There is a growing number of Israelis who want peace, are not as hard line as to borders and are willing to make certian concessions. Growing numbers of Americans and Europenans would love to see the end of the state of War in that part of the world too.
One new area of dispute is over the potentially huge deposits of Natural Gas in the Eastern Medeterrian including off the shore of Israel. These deposits are also off the coast of the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and there is disputes growing over who can control what, of how to divide the borders off-shore. That gives a lot of incentive to fight over turf to get access to that lucurative income.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:15 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
These deposits are also off the coast of the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and there is disputes growing over who can control what, of how to divide the borders off-shore. That gives a lot of incentive to fight over turf to get access to that lucurative income.

You are not wrong there. Mind you do not get excited by how large the fields are, all discoveries are HUGE when the finders are trying to raise the funds to develop them.
 
directorguy
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
Two countries, Egypt and Jordan, already have. Turkey has as well, although officially it is not a Muslim State despite the majority of the population being Muslim. The King of Morocco has been an intermediary in several negotiations between representatives of Israel and Arab States.

Sorry, should've clarified, I meant I don't see how many more Muslim nations will recognise Israel. All the liberal ones already have-Egypt, Jordan, Turkey. You still have Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, Yemen-all either very conservative and publicly anti-Israel (although we all know they have backdoor channels).

Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
To be honest I am not optimistic about any deal in the short term. Israel has no need to move and the Palestinians have virtually nothing left to give up. The US remains Israel's staunchest supporter, not only politically but financially. That is not going to change whatever Obama does to encourage dialogue. G W Bush had hoped for a solution before the end of his term in office. No doubt Obama wants the same, but will he serve another term and if not, will the next US President follow the same path?

True. In the long run, one can argue that Israel needs to make concessions but as of now, there is no real pressing motive for them. And sadly, US policy doesn't seem to be changing-so yeah, they've been paying the Palestinians more lip service these past few years, and that's about it. The Israeli lobby, and the US's percieved security interests in the region and lack of a real motive. What will they gain, after all? The hearts and minds of the Middle East? The USA does plenty of business in the region irregardless.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:50 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 39):
The Israeli lobby, and the US's percieved security interests in the region and lack of a real motive.

As best one can gather, the US generals will have been telling Obama that indeed he does have a strong security interest in the region and it is not the one that has been pursued over the past three or so decades.

http://www.lobelog.com/petraeus-conf...israel-palestine-and-u-s-security/

Petraeus Confirms Link Between Israel-Palestine and U.S. Security

March 16th, 2010 | Printable version |

In prepared testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning, Gen. David Petraeus delivered the message that, as we’ve been writing over the last few days, Mark Parry reported on Saturday. Here’s the money quote:

Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.


Could not be much more clear???

This is how Haaretz reported it

http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-gene...oments-anti-u-s-sentiment-1.264910

U.S. general: Israel-Palestinian conflict foments anti-U.S. sentiment
General Petraeus: Conflict presents distinct challenges to our ability to advance U.S. interests.
By Haaretz Service

...
Speaking on Israel's announcement about building in East Jerusalem, Axelrod hinted that it was a deliberate attempt to thwart indirect talks with the Palestinians.

"It was an insult, but that's not the most important thing," Axelrod added, saying that the move was disruptive to upcoming proximity talks with the Palestinians and that the approval during Biden's visit "seemed calculated to undermine that, and that was - that was distressing to everyone who is promoting the idea of peace and security in the region."

Responding to the possibility that Israel's move could have any effect on U.S. soldiers in the region, Axelrod said that he believed "that that region and that issue is a flare point throughout the region, and so I'm not going to put it in those terms."

However, the top Obama aide added that he did "believe that it is absolutely imperative, not just for the security of Israel and the Palestinian people, who were, remember, at war just a year ago, but it is important for our own security that we move forward and resolve this very difficult issue."

Axelrod said that the bond between Israel and the United States was "strong," but adding that "for just that very reason, this was not the right way to behave."
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:08 pm

Quoting ly001 (Reply 26):
What amazes me in this thread (actually not really amazes me) is that people here allready decided that if the peace talks will not succeed it the Israelis fault.

I am merely repeating the media's take on the situation. Thing is, Bibi has traditionally been a hardliner, but at the same time, its the hardliners that have delivered the peace agreements. I agree, Abbas has to step it up..but Israel has to help him.
 
directorguy
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:20 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
In prepared testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning, Gen. David Petraeus delivered the message that, as we’ve been writing over the last few days, Mark Parry reported on Saturday. Here’s the money quote:

Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.

That's absolutely correct of course. Now, the question remains whether US policymakers will face reality (that the USA's position in the region is declining because of its positition) or whether they'll conclude that it's not really worth the effort, and that the USA retains a degree of prestige and lucrative commercial contracts despite what's going on. They've focused on the bottom line for too long.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:21 pm

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 30):
Does he have control over the Gaza strip? And does he have control over the Qassam and Katyusha rockets?

Might be made easier if Israel stopped building settlements, gave back the land that has illegally been taken from the Palestinians. That may help and stop aggravating an already fragile situation.

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 30):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
The world at large is really sick and tired of the instability caused by Israels problems with its neighbors.

You are generalizing, it would be better for you to say 'i'm really sick and tired of the instability caused by Israels problems with its neighbors', but not for me!

Not sure that I am generalizing really.

Are you saying to me, that the world as a whole, is not tired of all this bickering between Israel and its neighbors ?

Who wouldn't be relieved that things are resloved ? I not following your logic.

Quoting kachum (Reply 32):
Quoting slz396 (Reply 29):
Everybody in Israel CAN do it, they just have to be MADE to do it by the US President.

This is very naive

Not really, if Israel lost the support of the US, I wonder how long it would be for Israel to "change" its stance.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 33):
if Obama decides to play the music, Israel MUST dance to it, it's as simple as that...

  

Quoting kachum (Reply 34):
I guess then "we ALL" should take it up with Obama when the whole thing is not resolved ASAP.

Take what up ? wouldn't the situation then be resolved and everyone happy that's its sorted ?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
There is a growing number of Israelis who want peace, are not as hard line as to borders and are willing to make certian concessions. Growing numbers of Americans and Europenans would love to see the end of the state of War in that part of the world too.

Yes, that's what I mean when I say the world is tired of it all, (including some in Israel)

Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
Ethnic cleansing was essential for the creation of Israel and remains essential to its survival as a Jewish state for the simple reason that Arabs, whether Muslim or Christian, have for a long time outnumbered Jews in the Middle East.

And this will continue to be an on going "touchy" topic within the ME I fear.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
kachum
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:54 am



Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):
Quoting kachum (Reply 32):
Quoting slz396 (Reply 29):
Everybody in Israel CAN do it, they just have to be MADE to do it by the US President.

This is very naive


Not really, if Israel lost the support of the US, I wonder how long it would be for Israel to "change" its stance.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 33):
if Obama decides to play the music, Israel MUST dance to it, it's as simple as that...


And if grandma had the balls she would be a grandpa (Russian expression).
For US to switch support from Israel to the other side, either US or the other side would have to change drastically. If you think that Obama or anybody else alone in US can do it you are naive. In our Belarus, yes , you would only have to have Lukashenko on your side and the problem would be solved. And in fact, Arab lobbying US is based on this principle, trying to get individual politicians. But US is different kind of country. Yes you can get someone in State Department or even Bush or Obama, but that will not be enough.

The Israeli lobbying in US works differently - it is based on popular support. That works much better.

[Edited 2010-09-06 18:13:29]
 
Severnaya
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):
Are you saying to me, that the world as a whole, is not tired of all this bickering between Israel and its neighbors ?

Who wouldn't be relieved that things are resloved ? I not following your logic.

I'm saying that you're generalizing way too much that the world is tired of bickering between Israel and its neighbors.

Take for example me, i'm not tired of bickering between Israel and its neighbours, i'm tired of Israels neighbors bickering with Israel.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:11 am

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 45):
Take for example me, i'm not tired of bickering between Israel and its neighbours, i'm tired of Israels neighbors bickering with Israel.

Which election are you standing for?

The number of constituencies in which that stance would get you elected is diminishing. And it might prove an obstacle to promotion to being a general in some armies, or so it seems.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:16 pm

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 45):
I'm saying that you're generalizing way too much that the world is tired of bickering between Israel and its neighbors.

Take for example me, i'm not tired of bickering between Israel and its neighbours, i'm tired of Israels neighbors bickering with Israel.

I'm starting to think that you need to take the rose coloured glasses off, if you really see it that way.

I very much doubt that so many in the world see it the other way, and have it wrong.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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par13del
Posts: 6669
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RE: Can Netanyahu Actually Do It?

Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:33 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
Problem! Nothing's been done for far too long. Someone has to break the ice and whether Israel likes it or not, they must return to their designated 1967 borders.

I will only add that NOTHING is responsible for the broader acceptance of the 1967 borders, initially it was simply a UN decision, since then based on time of "occupation" - ie nothing being done - , more countries in the Middle East have decided to accept.

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