flanker
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Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:09 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/09...ort-iran-pays-taliban-kill-troops/

So this is from the Sunday Times...

"The Iranian embassy in Kabul refused to respond to the allegations. But according to the Taliban treasurer, who has been interviewed by The Sunday Times, Iran is paying bonuses of $1,000 for killing an American soldier and $6,000 for destroying a U.S. military vehicle."

It is no surprise that Iran is a sponsor of terror, although it might come as a shock to the Iran cheerleaders on this board.

I still cant believe the west is still playing nice with Iran. They have nothing but ill intent for the region and for the west.

How long do we sit around until someone wakes up?
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racko
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:27 pm

Is that more or less than what Pakistan is paying?
 
deltaownsall
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 pm

Very unfortunate, but as you said not exactly shocking to those of us who don't blindly support Iran as some sort of champion of the wrongly accused.

I wouldn't expect much more solid opposition to Iran anytime in the near future, however, with China and Russia relishing their ability to frustrate any western consensus no matter how reasonable. And the U.S. has certainly learned its lesson on acting unilaterally...
 
photopilot
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:56 pm

WOW..... imagine that. A foreign government paying to influence events in a 3rd country. Reminds me of old Ollie North funneling funds from Iranian arms sales to fund the Contras in Central America. Guess you Yanks don't like it when someone else plays the same game against you.

Tit for tat, eh?
 
Acheron
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting flanker (Thread starter):
It is no surprise that Iran is a sponsor of terror, although it might come as a shock to the Iran cheerleaders on this board.

I'm pretty sure the US knows plenty about sponsoring terror.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 5):
WOW..... imagine that. A foreign government paying to influence events in a 3rd country. Reminds me of old Ollie North funneling funds from Iranian arms sales to fund the Contras in Central America. Guess you Yanks don't like it when someone else plays the same game against you.

Tit for tat, eh?

Indeed. Sucks to be on the receiving end of things.
 
BMI727
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:11 pm

Quoting flanker (Thread starter):
"The Iranian embassy in Kabul refused to respond to the allegations. But according to the Taliban treasurer, who has been interviewed by The Sunday Times, Iran is paying bonuses of $1,000 for killing an American soldier and $6,000 for destroying a U.S. military vehicle."

If it's true we might just have to encourage the Israelis to saddle up and go blow up a few things.

[Edited 2010-09-05 16:12:04]
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deltaownsall
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:13 pm

Have to love that a bastardized version of "an eye for an eye" is the consensus defense for Iran here. Truly unassailable (read: kindergarten playground) logic  
 
IADCA
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:14 pm

Iran and the Taliban would certainly be a case of strange bedfellows. It's also indicative of increasing Taliban independence and Pakistani weakness, if true. You've gotta take this stuff with a grain of salt, though. Information like this usually becomes public for a reason, and that's often not veracity. For example, consider the apparent source (described in the MSNBC story): taking a single Afghan farmer of unclear background at face value, and extrapolating the rest from there. Just because the companies are run by people who appear to be Iranian does not make them instruments of the Iranian government. There are also other groups in Afghanistan that would likely be more compatible with Iranian interests than the Taliban, though the association would be more obvious. Things in Afghanistan and the intelligence world are usually a hell of a lot more complicated than this report makes out.

That said, with reduced targets in Iraq, Afghanistan is the most convenient second front for an Iran-US proxy war. If that's the case, bad move by Iran. As this incident shows, it helps a lot to have reliable proxies.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:23 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
I'm pretty sure the US knows plenty about sponsoring terror.

Knowing how to play the game, helps knowing how to win the game. We are part of a large crowd, so who does not particpate?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Indeed. Sucks to be on the receiving end of things.

I think we are tough enough to take the blows and give bigger ones when called for.
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Acheron
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:49 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
Knowing how to play the game, helps knowing how to win the game. We are part of a large crowd, so who does not particpate?

But seems some of your compatriots are totally surprised and outraged when either such things are mentioned or when in the receiving end of the tactic.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I think we are tough enough to take the blows and give bigger ones when called for.

As long the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way, seeing the conflicts the US has been involved in the last 20 years.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:02 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
But seems some of your compatriots are totally surprised and outraged when either such things are mentioned or when in the receiving end of the tactic.

I think that most realize the game that is afoot, kill, or be killed.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
As long the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way, seeing the conflicts the US has been involved in the last 20 years.

That is how we stay free. Kill them, before they kill us. I have no problem witht that, never have.
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photopilot
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:07 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
That is how we stay free. Kill them, before they kill us. I have no problem witht that, never have.

I'm sure that is somewhat comforting to the over 100,000 Iraqi civilians that the USA has murdered, who were absolutely no threat to the USA. Wern't involved in any way in 9/11, never had weapons of mass distruction (despite all that has been said and years of searching) but sadly sat on a pile of oil that the Americans wanted control of.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:18 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
I'm sure that is somewhat comforting to the over 100,000 Iraqi civilians that the USA has murdered, who were absolutely no threat to the USA. Wern't involved in any way in 9/11, never had weapons of mass distruction (despite all that has been said and years of searching) but sadly sat on a pile of oil that the Americans wanted

They are dead, just like the victims of 9/11. Just as millions are dead at the hands of all the maniacs out there through history. The US is a Piker when it comes to innocent deaths. Read history, just in the last century. See who the big boys are in the death game.
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Mir
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:57 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
As long the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way, seeing the conflicts the US has been involved in the last 20 years.

That is how we stay free. Kill them, before they kill us.

You do realize that your logic is defeated by Acheron's statement that "the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way", right?

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:27 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
But seems some of your compatriots are totally surprised and outraged when either such things are mentioned or when in the receiving end of the tactic.

Surprised? No. Outraged? No. It is however an act of war, to which we may choose to answer in a way we say fit. Taking out Iran's religious leaders, for instance.

[Edited 2010-09-06 12:54:17 by srbmod]
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deltaownsall
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:28 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
I'm sure that is somewhat comforting to the over 100,000 Iraqi civilians that the USA has murdered, who were absolutely no threat to the USA. Wern't involved in any way in 9/11, never had weapons of mass distruction (despite all that has been said and years of searching) but sadly sat on a pile of oil that the Americans wanted control of.

Not that this is even relevant here, but: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html I apologize for using Time instead of perhaps a more official source, but the story is the same and verifiable elsewhere...

And your civilian death toll is oversimplified to the max. For instance, when innocent Iraqi's are killed by a suicide bomber, they have not been "murdered by the USA". The civilian death toll in Iraq is tragic, but the US is absolutely not the only belligerent.

Of course, this thread was about Iran supporting terrorism.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:31 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I think we are tough enough to take the blows and give bigger ones when called for.


As long the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way, seeing the conflicts the US has been involved in the last 20 years.
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
You do realize that your logic is defeated by Acheron's statement that "the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way", right?


We cannot all be nuclear powers, if that is what he is inferring, we cannot all have million man armies, if that is what he is inferring. The strong dominate the weak, the weak can strike, (9/11) but the strong can demolish the weak, that is the way of the nuclear armed. We are wise to make sure that the weak do not become strong, militarily that is, including nuclear weapons. We are strong conventionally and nuclear. That is my logic.
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NIKV69
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:58 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
If it's true we might just have to encourage the Israelis to saddle up and go blow up a few things.

Won't happen, unless Israel really steps out of line we or Israel aren't doing anything. They control the oil.
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Mir
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:16 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 17):
Of course, this thread was about Iran supporting terrorism.

It's actually not terrorism. It could be considered an act of war. Illegal war at that, since companies don't have the legal standing to wage war, by themselves or by proxy. It becomes legal war if the Iranian government is shown to be behind it (which wouldn't surprise me at all), but we'd then be justified in hitting back at them.

-Mir
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AirPacific747
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:22 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
You do realize that your logic is defeated by Acheron's statement that "the receiver doesn't have any actual means or capabilities of answering back in any real harmful way", right?


It can't come as a surprise to you that the mightiest countries decide the most regardless of their politics.

I am sure that if Iran was more powerful than the US, they would attack the US in an instant. And I sure prefer countries such as the US over countries such as Iraq or Iran or even China to dominate the world.
 
TheCol
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):
Tit for tat, eh?

You realize that the CF personnel fall under that category as well, eh? It's highly doubtful Iran only put a bounty on the US troops of the ISAF.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):

Since when is the Taliban in Iraq? This has to do with the war our country is involved in, alongside our allies from the ISAF. The next time you see one of our own come home in a wooden box, remember who paid the killer to do it.
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speedygonzales
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:57 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
That is how we stay free. Kill them, before they kill us. I have no problem witht that, never have.

As you wish mr LeMay  
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photopilot
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:07 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It becomes legal war if the Iranian government is shown to be behind it (which wouldn't surprise me at all), but we'd then be justified in hitting back at them.

And pray tell...... how in ANY WAY is the US "war" in the mid-east anything but an Illegal War as well?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:23 pm

Quoting flanker (Thread starter):
It is no surprise that Iran is a sponsor of terror

You have got to be joking. The US is allowed to attack an innocent country (Afghanistan) and yet any kind of blowback is terrorism?! Undesirable, perhaps, but terrorism it most certainly is not.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):
WOW..... imagine that. A foreign government paying to influence events in a 3rd country. Reminds me of old Ollie North funneling funds from Iranian arms sales to fund the Contras in Central America. Guess you Yanks don't like it when someone else plays the same game against you

Now someone's talking sense.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
If it's true we might just have to encourage the Israelis to saddle up and go blow up a few things.

Sounds like a dictionary definition of terrorism to me.
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baroque
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:08 pm

I suppose this must be why the Pakistan Taliban just blew up a mosque full of Shia in Pakistan. If the US has managed to persuade the Shia Iranians to collaborate with the Salafist Taliban, it is indeed a major achievement. Something that 1400 years of Islam could not manage.  Wow!

A bit more likely that any funds for rewards would be coming from a certain fairly rich country where the Salafist movement originates do you not think. What better cover than to suggest it is Iran?
 
Pyrex
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:07 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 25):
You have got to be joking. The US is allowed to attack an innocent country (Afghanistan) and yet any kind of blowback is terrorism?! Undesirable, perhaps, but terrorism it most certainly is not.

   Someone actually suggesting Afghanistan is an innocent country (and I am sure the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, did they?). What a way to destroy any kind of credibility you might otherwise have had.

As to the story behind this, I find it strange, at the very least. As someone said, the Taliban and Iran are very weird bedfellows. Iran actually probably acts as a sort of Western buffer to the Taliban and does its best to cut off the opium supply routes that provide the Taliban a big part of their funding. Not saying the report is untrue, just that it is strange.
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baroque
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:10 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
Not saying the report is untrue, just that it is strange.

Or even a bit beyond strange?   
 
BMI727
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:28 pm

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 23):
As you wish mr LeMay

Peace through superior firepower.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 25):
Sounds like a dictionary definition of terrorism to me

It's not terrorism when we do it.
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mham001
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:56 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

I think we are tough enough to take the blows and give bigger ones when called for.

Exactly. No whining, just hit them harder in return.
 
AGM100
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:12 pm

So here is the question ...

Which side do you prefer prevails in Afghanistan .... ?

1. USA and Western democracies .
2. Iran , AQ , Taliban

Choose sides .... its that simple . Both sides are blemished with imperfections .... but which side is better ?
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:45 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
I'm sure that is somewhat comforting to the over 100,000 Iraqi civilians that the USA has murdered

I'm hesitant to give any of your comments the time and effort of a response... and honestly, I suspect intellectual honesty and facts have little appeal to you... so this is more for other people reading this.

Stipulating that the 100,000 causality figure is accurate (for the record, I would agree that it is), it's rather ignorant to suggest that they were killed by Americans. Indeed, as someone who spent a few years there, the vast majority of Iraqis killed, were killed by other Iraqis/foreign insurgents. It's sad that people still try to pay lip service to those dead civilians... but yet they are too lazy to really educate themselves on how those people died.

If there was one constant in Iraq, it was that their thirst for American blood was only outdone by their thirst for members of the rival tribe's blood! If the US is responsible for their deaths, it is not directly, rather it is because the US opened the can of worms. The US allowed the blood thirsty, barbaric tribes to go at each other with all the hatred and ugliness they could muster!

The only thing that kept them from their barbaric cruelty was the oppressive rule of Saddam, and when the US removed the foot that kept them in-check, they went freakin' wild! I think it's pretty obvious that they're not a people mature enough for democracy and peace. The only thing that keeps them under control is a stifling dictatorship. But please, don't directly attribute those 100,000 dead to the US, because the truth is the majority were killed by their "own countryman".

Quoting flanker (Thread starter):

As for the thread topic.... this is news?

Hell I've been saying this for almost 3 years! Oddly enough, a few years ago I recounted a story about how an Iranian produced Misagh-1 missile was fired at me, in Iraq. I mentioned that a lot of Iranian produced weapons were showing up on the battlefield. Actually come to think of it... at the time N1120A refused to acknowledge Iran was supplying arms to the Iraqi insurgency. Even in the face of evidence and personal accounts, he did not want to accept it. I wonder if he has come around, yet?

Anyway, so what? They're surrounded nearly on all sides by the American military. We're enemies. Of course they're doing things to try and undermine the US. I would be pissed if the US wasn't doing the same thing to them!

Do you guys realize how much intelligence has been gathered on Iran, because of our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan? We have set up so many SIGINT/ELINT/COMINT assets along their border, it's been a boondoggle for our intelligence gathering. Not to mention, a decade ago one of our biggest problems with Iran was our lack of HUMINT. We didn't have a lot of viable spies. But during our time in Iraq/Afghanistan we have developed a lot of personal relationships with "local" people who could get into Iran without much hassle.

Point being, it's a game and we're both playing it.
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:59 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
It's not terrorism when we do it.

Of course it is. Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. You don't see it as terrorism because you support the action. Those of us who can look past the flag waving and "eye for an eye" mentality, however, able to see it for what it is.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):
I would agree that it is), it's rather ignorant to suggest that they were killed by Americans.

Perhaps, but one can also argue that those Iraqis would be alive today had the US not launched an illegal war against their country thus provoking the extremism and insurgency that is responsible for bringing about their deaths.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
Of course it is. Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. You don't see it as terrorism because you support the action. Those of us who can look past the flag waving and "eye for an eye" mentality, however, able to see it for what it is.

So you're seeing the Taleban as freedom fighters? Fighting for whose freedom? The Afghani people?

Also - would you prefer to live in a country ruled by al-qaeda or a country with a western kind of democracy? Should make it easy to choose your side.
 
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:15 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
Perhaps, but one can also argue that those Iraqis would be alive today had the US not launched an illegal war against their country thus provoking the extremism and insurgency that is responsible for bringing about their deaths.

...And I said exactly that. Go back and reread the entire post.

It's now obvious that there were a lot of barbaric tribal people, who were eager to kill each other. Muslims killing Muslims, simply because they belonged to different religious sects and tribes. Pure insanity and animalistic living.

Clearly they were not the freedom loving, peaceful people that we were told to expect. Clearly by removing Saddam, we removed the lid to the pressure cooker. The US should have never went in there. We may not have directly killed the majority of those people, but we certainly unleashed the rabid dogs onto each other!
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Scorpio
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:18 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 36):
So you're seeing the Taleban as freedom fighters?

Huh? Where did he ever defend the Taliban?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:32 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 38):

Huh? Where did he ever defend the Taliban?

Here:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
Those of us who can look past the flag waving and "eye for an eye" mentality, however, able to see it for what it is.

If the US and the rest of the ISAF are the terrorists - surely taleban must be the freedom fighters according to OA412?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:33 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
Of course it is. Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder.

Moral relativism rears its head again. It is NOT in the eye of the beholder. Terrorism is when a group uses indiscriminate attacks on innocent populations specifically to inflict terror on it - the fear that they might die at any time, through no fault of their own. Attacking a target that is expected to be able to defend itself (such as, when Al Qaeda mortars a US base, is not really terrorism, IMHO, but blowing up a street market or mosque is. US and allied attacks are not intended to inflict fear of indiscriminate death on the population - their attacks were targeted.

Read this account of a US platoon leader and an Iraqi interpreter. Who are the terrorists in this story?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2010/08/27/AR2010082702133_pf.html

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
Perhaps, but one can also argue that those Iraqis would be alive today had the US not launched an illegal war against their country

Good thing it wasn't illegal...

If you would prefer to have Saddam still around - and now worried about both Iran and Iraq getting nukes instead of just Iran, you are free to do so.

[Edited 2010-09-06 12:36:54]
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Scorpio
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:45 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 39):
If the US and the rest of the ISAF are the terrorists - surely taleban must be the freedom fighters according to OA412?

You're doing an AWFUL lot of assuming here. You're first assuming (wrongly) that OA's post referred to the US and ISAF's actions in Afghanistan. Then you assume that if one party is the terrorist the other automatically must be a freedom fighter, to then finally assume OA thinks the Taliban are freedom fighters. That's three assumptions, and not a single one that's correct...
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:49 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
You're doing an AWFUL lot of assuming here.

Because an AWFUL lot is implied as well..

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
You're first assuming (wrongly) that OA's post referred to the US and ISAF's actions in Afghanistan.

How can you tell that the comment wasn't about Afghanistan? We're discussing the involvement of the US in the Middle East & Afghanistan in general here.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
Then you assume that if one party is the terrorist the other automatically must be a freedom fighter, to then finally assume OA thinks the Taliban are freedom fighters. That's three assumptions, and not a single one that's correct...

Yes I did, but I asked it as a question. Nothing wrong with that. Why are you not contributing to the discussion yourself?
 
Scorpio
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40):
How can you tell that the comment wasn't about Afghanistan?

Because it's in response to the suggestion Israel should 'blow up a few things'?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40):
Why are you not contributing to the discussion yourself?

The whole area is one giant clusterfuck, with no end in sight. There's nothing for me to say that hasn't already been said, or that I haven't said in one of several dozen previous discussions.
 
Mir
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:15 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
And pray tell...... how in ANY WAY is the US "war" in the mid-east anything but an Illegal War as well?

That's been rehashed over and over again, and I'm not going to get into it in this thread - suffice to say that there is a case to be made for the US's actions in the Middle East. You may not accept it, but it's there.

A company waging war, on the other hand, has no legal grounds whatsoever. If you want the textbook definition of an unlawful combatant, that would be it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
It's not terrorism when we do it.

Now that's just ridiculous, and it's that sort of blind patriotic chest-thumping that pisses so many people off around the world. The US military is certainly capable of terrorism - the fact that they don't commit such acts is testament to the military leadership and the discipline they instill in the troops, not that they happen have the US flag on their uniforms. Give them a bit more credit than that.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 32):
But please, don't directly attribute those 100,000 dead to the US, because the truth is the majority were killed by their "own countryman".

I would hope that nobody in their right mind would say that the US killed 100,000 in Iraq. But I do feel that there is some shared responsibility for taking the lid off the pressure cooker, as you put it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Attacking a target that is expected to be able to defend itself (such as, when Al Qaeda mortars a US base, is not really terrorism, IMHO, but blowing up a street market or mosque is.

   Which is why this isn't terrorism. But it is an act of war to attack members of another military, and that fits this situation nicely.

[Edited 2010-09-06 14:50:28 by srbmod]
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:26 pm

What the hell? There have been a lot of bizarre assumptions made about my post above.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 35):
The US should have never went in there. We may not have directly killed the majority of those people, but we certainly unleashed the rabid dogs onto each other!

On this we can actually agree. Getting rid of Saddam brings up some really difficult questions such as, would it have possibly been better to leave Saddam in place rather than to unleash the can of worms that is the current state of affairs in Iraq. Unfortunately, we'll never really know the answer to that question. Throughout history certain societies (i.e. Yugoslavia) have only been held together as a result of a strong despot. Does that make them good societies, not necessarily, but it does mean that blood shed can be averted. That said, I'm a firm believer in individual freedom and democracy, so at the end of the day I would prefer that these societies be free rather than under the control of a despot. Time will tell what will happen in Iraq. In 50 years time we can look back and try to accurately assess what benefit (or lack thereof) this entire US invasion of Iraq has produced.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 34):
So you're seeing the Taleban as freedom fighters?

Huh? When did I ever suggest this? Please show me a direct quote of mine above that specifically cites the Taliban as freedom fighters.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 34):
Fighting for whose freedom?

I don't believe they are freedom fighters nor have I ever suggested such a thing so I don't really know where this question is coming from.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 34):
Also - would you prefer to live in a country ruled by al-qaeda or a country with a western kind of democracy? Should make it easy to choose your side.

And this pretty much kills any and all credibility you may have had with me. The moment anyone starts to speak in absolutes, I tend to stop listening. It's a silly question, and I think you knew that when you wrote it.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 36):
Huh? Where did he ever defend the Taliban?

Good question. I never did!

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 37):
If the US and the rest of the ISAF are the terrorists - surely taleban must be the freedom fighters according to OA412?

I don't believe I ever said, nor suggest that "the US and the rest of the ISAF are the terrorists". Furthermore, the world is not about absolutes. Things are not black vs white, good vs evil. When one side commits a terrorist act, it is not automatically true that the other side are freedom fighters. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that both sides are terrorists.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
If you would prefer to have Saddam still around - and now worried about both Iran and Iraq getting nukes instead of just Iran, you are free to do so.

Never quite said that now did I? Being critical of the war in Iraq does not mean that I wish Saddam were still in power, but then you already knew that didn't you? It's these absolutes that some of you posit that worry me. Again, it's not an either/or world.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
It is NOT in the eye of the beholder.

It absolutely is. Most countries have engaged in terrorist acts at some point in their history, yet these acts have been presented as necessary to the survival of the state, or necessary to save lives, etc. This does not make them any less terrorist in nature. The firebombing of Dresden was, in many senses, a terrorist act, yet the fact that the eventual victors were the ones who perpetrated the act means that it is not viewed by history as such. However, you can bet that those German civilians who lived through that horrible experience will tell you that it was an act of terror.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
US and allied attacks are not intended to inflict fear of indiscriminate death on the population - their attacks were targeted.

Yet civilians are almost always victims of these attacks. We can refer to it as "collateral damage" or use any other buzzword out there, but it is still a fact that innocent civilians are the number one casulaity of modern warfare. Do you honestly believe that the civilian population in Iraq never feared US or allied attacks? I highly doubt that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Good thing it wasn't illegal...

A preemptive war waged against an "enemy" that never attacked us and possessed WMD's at some point in it's history yet no longer had them which is a fact that had been confirmed by the UN and was summarily ignored by Bush/Blair in the push for war. Yeah, that sounds like a perfectly legal and legitimate war to me.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 39):
You're doing an AWFUL lot of assuming here.

To say the very least.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 39):
You're first assuming (wrongly) that OA's post referred to the US and ISAF's actions in Afghanistan.

Which it never did as my response had absolutely nothing to do with Afghanistan. I was responding to the notion that we should convince the Israeli's to strike targets in Iran in response to the allegations that the Iranian government is offering financial incentives to Al Qaeda fighters who murder US military personnel and that "when we act like that" it is not an act of terrorism. Will military and government installations be targeted? Probably. Will civilian casualties be an unfortunate reality of an such action? More like than not. To those killed in such acts of war or what have you, the US's actions will be viewed as terrorist in nature whether or not they truly were intended as such. The victims don't give a damn, and couldn't care less that the US wasn't intending to terrorize them by convincing Israel to attack. The notion that only the other side is committing a terrorist act by when convincing a third party to do their dirty work is fairly ludicrous.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 39):
Then you assume that if one party is the terrorist the other automatically must be a freedom fighter,

Which is a false dichotomy. In any situtation involving terrorism, the targets of said terrorism are not automatically freedom fighters. As I said above, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that both sides are terrorists or any number of possibilites in between.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 39):
to then finally assume OA thinks the Taliban are freedom fighters.

Which is an assertion that I have never made, and I am still confused as to how anyone would interpret my post as being suggestive of the idea that the Taliban are freedom fighters.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 39):
That's three assumptions, and not a single one that's correct...

Bingo. Not one correct assumption in the lot.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40):
Because an AWFUL lot is implied as well..

Nothing is implied. You completely misinterpreted my post and my intent.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40):
How can you tell that the comment wasn't about Afghanistan?

Maybe because it was not?

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 42):
Because it's in response to the suggestion Israel should 'blow up a few things'?

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):
Now that's just ridiculous, and it's that sort of blind patriotic chest-thumping that pisses so many people off around the world.

   It's assertions such as this that give the US a black eye.
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:00 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply xx):
Which side do you prefer prevails in Afghanistan .... ?
1. USA and Western democracies .
2. Iran , AQ , Taliban
Choose sides .... its that simple . Both sides are blemished with imperfections .... but which side is better ?

Actually, that's a rather simplistic look at a nearly 2000 year old culture. Afghanistan has always been a fuedal tribal hodgepodge of various warlords etc. since the time of the "Shahi" in the late 4th and early 5th centuries. Kinda pre-dates your "western democracies" eh? If you ever think you're going to install a western style democracy (puppet or otherwise) in Afghanistan, they you're as delusional as the British were, and later the Russians. Absolutely nobody is going to control that country until they decide to do it themselves.
 
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:57 pm

*Sigh* The anti-US sentiment is alive and well on this board and this thread is proof of it. What also strikes me as odd is the responses on here when you consider how many US military personnel, past and present, we have on this forum.    I don't even know how to word my frustration or response to such sentiment.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 22):

Thank you very much for that response, and welcome to my RU List.   
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:07 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 31):
Of course it is. Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder.

So, put whatever sort of moral or philosophical spin on it so you can sleep at night. At the end of the day all we have is the belief that we are right and they are wrong.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
The US military is certainly capable of terrorism - the fact that they don't commit such acts is testament to the military leadership and the discipline they instill in the troops, not that they happen have the US flag on their uniforms. Give them a bit more credit than that.

Well, that's using the definition of terrorism of American soldiers killing basically anyone, even if they are bad which seems to be somewhat in fashion, not actual terrorism.
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Well, that's using the definition of terrorism of American soldiers killing basically anyone, even if they are bad which seems to be somewhat in fashion, not actual terrorism.

I'm using the definition of terrorism as normally defined in international law (targeting and killing civilians in order to bring about fear or policy changes). What definition are you using? Because it seems like you were using the "no matter what we do, it's not terrorism, because we can define what terrorism is" approach.

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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
Because it seems like you were using the "no matter what we do, it's not terrorism, because we can define what terrorism is" approach.

That approach works too. Isn't that the big unspoken purpose of going terrorist hunting in Afghanistan: better there than here and better them than us.
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):

I'm using the definition of terrorism as normally defined in international law (targeting and killing civilians in order to bring about fear or policy changes)

Whoever wrote that definition should be waterboarded. Tell me, are the Taliban or Al Qaeda civilian or military? Neither? Both?

To me they are not military. They do not have identifiable uniforms and visible rank insignia. The are not civilians either, insofar as international law assumes "civilian" to mean someone who is an innocent bystander.
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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
Whoever wrote that definition should be waterboarded. Tell me, are the Taliban or Al Qaeda civilian or military? Neither? Both?

Personally, I think they're unlawful combatants. But that's irrelevant, since I was talking about the definition of a terrorist act, and both civilians and members of a military are capable of committing terrorist acts.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
That approach works too.

Redefining terrorism to mean what you want it to mean doesn't work, no.

A US soldier could easily pursue a strategy of targeting innocent civilians in order to achieve their objectives. They don't, because they are a professional fighting force with a respect for the rules and conventions of war, and they know better. But if they did, the fact that they're wearing the US flag on their uniforms wouldn't stop it from being terrorism. To argue otherwise is incredibly arrogant and nationalistic.

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RE: Iran Paying Taliban To Kill U.S. Troops

Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 pm

I highly doubt that Iran finances or supports the Talin due to the following reason:
The Taliban (and Al Qaeda) are Sunni fundamentalists, who regard the Iranian Shi´ite religious majority and clergy (and therefore the Iranian government) as heretics and apostates in a similar way the 15th century Roman-Catholic church looked at Protestants, to kill them. he Taliban have been killing members of the Afghan Shiíte minority for a long time.Taliban supporters are blowing up Shi´ite mosques in Pakistan and Al Qaeda supported Sunni groups are blowing up Shi´ite mosques in Iraq.
I agree though that the Iranians are mostt likely supporting Shi´ite militant groups in Iraq.

There are simply too many ideological and sectarian differences between the Taliban and the iranian governmen, the only thing they seem to have in common is to regard the US as enemy No. 1.

Jan
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