Ken777
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Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:33 am

Interesting article in the NY Times today on Obama missing his chance

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/us/politics/09bai.html?_r=1&hp

The article breaks out the urgent spending to avoid a depression with the long term investments the country needs to make in order to compete internationally in the future.

Quote:
In this way, Mr. Obama risked confusing the voters — and not for the first time. By consistently conflating short-term and long-term economic goals, the president and his party may have missed an opportunity to explain the crucial difference between the two, and they have all but ensured that voters this fall will give them credit for neither.
Quote:
There were thoughtful liberals who argued, as far back as the 1980s, that policymakers needed to distinguish in the public mind between basic domestic spending, much of which goes to sustain less affluent and older Americans day to day, and the kind of public investments that might give future workers better access to the new economy.
Quote:
What happened, instead, was this: The administration turned control of the roughly $800 billion stimulus package over to Congress. Congress decided that the most expedient thing to do was to throw every kind of expenditure one could think of, short-term and long-term, into a single bill, because the public was willing to spend the money right then and the legislative politics required addressing the demands of disparate constituencies.

This is what Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, meant when he said that you “should never let a serious crisis go to waste” — that the stimulus bill had to pack in as much investment as possible, because the chance to spend on such transformative priorities might not come again.

Whether or not this was sound economic policy, it was a fateful decision. The long-awaited teachable moment about the need for long-term investment was lost. Mr. Obama would later try, fitfully, to explain the separate need for public investment. But more often, he has done what he did again this week, which is to emphasize the argument that making investments in infrastructure is worthwhile mostly to stimulate the sluggish economy in the short run.

As someone old enough to remember road trips before the Interstate System I'm well aware of the need for infrastructure in this country. And of the need to maintain it.

I also believe in focusing part of stimulus money on longer term projects. If I went back to where I lived during my elementary school years I will still be able to find sidewalks with "WPA" stamped in them.

Anyway, it's solid thinking that will be lost until after the elections, then "may" return to public thinking.
 
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Vio
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:51 am

Hmmm.... just one question. Why does everyone blame Obama?

The United States of America had this coming for a long time. The whole world had this coming for a long time... Americans with their unionized "$25 / hour assembly line floor sweepers", huge markups, etc can't compete with the Chinese who make but a small fraction of that.

Everyone blames Obama ... Obama wasn't even born when this started to happen. What he's trying to do is salvage what he can of his country and people and I think, instead of being united, Americans are more divided than ever. Sad to see the American "empire" collapse, but it will happen... Gradually...

Americans will have to get used to living with mom and dad until they're 30, have a family of 4 leave in a 2 bedroom apartment, etc. The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything. The best way to deal with this is accept that we will have a much lower standard of living.

  
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Ken777
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:34 am

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Americans with their unionized "$25 / hour assembly line floor sweepers

Look at the cost of living these days. And compare the distance between the highest paid employee (including CEOs) and the lowest. That ratio has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. $25 and hour is $50K a year.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
huge markups

I spent enough time in retailing to understand that keystone (doubling cost) might result in a net profit of 2 - 3% of sales. If you'e lucky. Big box stores can get away with a lot less simply because they cut costs - especially payroll. With good retailers you pay for what you get, and get what you pay for.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
can't compete with the Chinese who make but a small fraction of that.

Over the years China will have increased wages and other costs - just like Japan had. Why else would they be the best market that Buick has? They are undergoing dramatic changes and it is slowly filtering down through the workforce. Maybe India will be the next focus for developing new production infrastructure.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything.

The American dream isn't dead, but it was sure sidetracked over the years when greed was more important than country. It does have a good chance to return if we return to our core values, set aside the ridiculous poitical split we have and return to being Americans.
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:11 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Look at the cost of living these days. And compare the distance between the highest paid employee (including CEOs) and the lowest. That ratio has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. $25 and hour is $50K a year.

Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees, regulations have made things costlier like health care, special interests haven't helped either....
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alberchico
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:12 am

the correct solution is to keep spending so jobs can be created and economic recovery and prosperity come sooner.
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Superfly
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:31 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees,

Like the war in Iraq?
What about the over-valued real estate in many parts of the country? Are the cost of goods the result of government spending?

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
special interests haven't helped either....

Enviornmentalist have prohibited lots of develpoment and expansion.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
The American dream isn't dead, but it was sure sidetracked over the years when greed was more important than country.

  
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QXatFAT
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:53 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 4):
the correct solution is to keep spending so jobs can be created and economic recovery and prosperity come sooner.

This is only true if the money being spent is from the private sector and NOT tax paying dollars from the government to creat more government jobs. That just equals to more taxation. The key to a growing economy and job creation MUST be through the private sector.
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Vio
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:03 am

Not to sidetrack this conversation, but am I the only one in this world that feels like America is run by corportions / interest groups and not by the people? (through their elected leaders)...
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:11 am

Quoting vio (Reply 7):
Not to sidetrack this conversation, but am I the only one in this world that feels like America is run by corportions / interest groups and not by the people? (through their elected leaders)...

You are not the only one. What is happening in the US today was a long time coming. When people start living out of their means, they are just buying time till they hit bankruptcy. In this case its not one person but the whole country itself.
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QXatFAT
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting vio (Reply 7):

I would think most of America knows that intrest groups have a say in what goes on around here. A lot of people in America get letters to join AARP, NRA, and other various groups.
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Vio
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:05 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
You are not the only one. What is happening in the US today was a long time coming. When people start living out of their means, they are just buying time till they hit bankruptcy. In this case its not one person but the whole country itself

Indeed! That's exactly what I believe as well... Wait... no, it's more than believe. I KNOW SO. I have so many friends who are "mortgage poor". They spend more than 75% of their income on housing. It's ridiculous when a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo in Vancouver costs 300,000 dollars. Factor in the interest, condo fees, etc etc. you end up paying 600,000 for it. You are a slave to the banks just to have a roof over your head.

On top of that, you're always tempted / "offered" to buy things you really don't need.

What's wrong with a normal cell phone? If you want to justify that you need an iPhone for work that's fine too, but what's wrong with the one you bought last year? Do you really need to change your phone every 2 years? Do you really need to change your TV that often.... or car? How about clothes? How about that $10,000 credit card with 18% interest... and more...

I think we Americans are gready. And by AMERICANS I mean NORTH AMERICANS. Canada falls under the same category when it comes to living WAY BEYOND OUR MEANS...

Look, a lot of people are responsible, but I can safely say, that the majority are not responsible with money. How many of you here have no debt and savings you can live on for at least 6 months? You don't have to answer that, but be honest with yourself...
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Superfly
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:03 am

Quoting vio (Reply 11):
They spend more than 75% of their income on housing. It's ridiculous when a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo in Vancouver costs 300,000 dollars.




Ok so what part of Vancouver has a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo for $50,000 or less?
Just because people spend a high percentage of their income on housing doesn't mean they are doing that out of "greedy".
For many working people, they have no choice because there is no available housing that suits their income.

Quoting vio (Reply 11):
Do you really need to change your phone every 2 years? Do you really need to change your TV that often.... or car? How about clothes?




I'm with you on that one.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:35 am

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything. The best way to deal with this is accept that we will have a much lower standard of living.

I am not so sure that "the dream" is dead, but I think the "dream" is much more realistic. However, if the erosion of our confidence that the future is brighter than past generations of Amercans is threatening to destroy the social and the political fabric of America - look at the rise of the "Tea Party" and the complete lack of political bipartisanship in the power-mad city of Washington, DC.


I believe that the "Dream" still exists for those who are taught to work hard and sacrifice for it. I also believe it exists for the wealthy or those for whom government policy and the law favor.

As it turns out, the "greatest generation" did much better than subsequent generations of Americans - they were a "once in history" generation. Yes they were extraordinary people in extraordinary times - they fought horrible wars and survived the great Depression, but they returned to a period of prolonged economic growth after World War 2. They had jobs with retirement benefits, opportunities for paid college education (with the GI bill and other programs) and benefiitted from generally strong investment from government in new technologies (space missions, nuclear power, new high-tech weaponry developed to fight the "Cold War", etc.) and infrastructure (interstate highway systems, rural electrification). That had never existed before and it doesn't look like it will EVER happen again - unless there's a World War III (God forbid).

Bottom line: I'm not going to be economically better off than my parents or many from their generation. I am not buying new cars every 3 or 4 years like my parents, or going on vacation nearly as much as they did. The federal government is going broke from the entitlement systems (Social Security was NEVER intended to support retirees for 20-25 years after retiring - life expectancy wasn't nearly that long in the 1930's) and the subsequent expansions of Medicare to earn political favor from senior citizens has bankrupted the nation because of the failure of our elected officials to effectively govern the nation for the past 30 years. Our standard of living is in free-fall, IMHO.

Obama just happens to be the President when the "Dream is dead" reality has finally dawned on the American public.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:22 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
What about the over-valued real estate in many parts of the country? Are the cost of goods the result of government spending?

Yes, in the case of real estate...homes were built and then given to people who couldn't afford them in the first place thanks to the government...
That was actually the Clinton Administration's fault...It's called social engineering....

And as for the spending....
$187 billion here, $30 billion there, $787 billion there, $50 billion more here...
And what do we have to show for it?
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NIKV69
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:29 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees, regulations have made things costlier like health care, special interests haven't helped either....

  

Yes Obama screwed up bigtime. He tricked the middle into thinking he would govern like a moderate Democrat and instead went back to his liberal far left vision of big government. Now the country has rejected him and Pelosi. He could have had 8 years easy and congress to if he just listened to the right people. Rahm was right that the people like Joan Walsh, Rachel Maddow, Jane Hamsher, George Soros and Arianna Huffington were "*ing *etarded" and that the UAW was a bunch of idiots. That is why he is leaving and going back to Chicago. Heck even Gibbs called them out. The Obama admin did the hard part and screwed up the easy part. He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:09 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.

I think it's too early for that call. As a comparison, Bill Clinton's approval rating was down to about 40% at a similar time in office, comparable to Obama's right now, and he was reelected.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116584/pr...approval-ratings-bill-clinton.aspx

Or to give a republican example, Reagan's approval rating was down to 35% in January '83, and he was reelected in '84.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116677/pr...-historical-statistics-trends.aspx

I'm not saying that Obama will get a second term, I just think that too much can happen in two years. And history shows that voters have a rather short memory, so there's still a good possibility for reelection. And of course it also depends on the candidate the Republicans will set up against him.

If you look at the historical approval ratings, it also shows how history repeats itself... Nearly all presidents go down in approval midterm and back up again towards election time. Notable exceptions: Nixon after Watergate (neg) and Bush after 9/11 (pos). I have the article in WSJ open in my browser but the forum won't allow me to post it, some silly bug here...
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:27 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Americans will have to get used to living with mom and dad until they're 30, have a family of 4 leave in a 2 bedroom apartment, etc.

If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
The Obama admin did the hard part and screwed up the easy part. He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.

It's about time people recognize that Obama hasn't demonstrated meaningful leadership, which is not unexpected from a man whose most significant leadership experience prior to the Presidency was managing a Presidential campaign.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 15):
I think it's too early for that call. As a comparison, Bill Clinton's approval rating was down to about 40% at a similar time in office, comparable to Obama's right now, and he was reelected.

The difference between past Presidents and this one (IMO) is the percentage of people who "strongly disapprove" versus just "disapprove." The former are passionate in their dislike for the Obama administration. I can't image how you win back those voters. What's more damning is that the "strongly disapprove" block is bigger than the population who identifies themselves as conservative. He has seriously alienated a significant chunk of the moderates who got him elected.
 
AGM100
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:16 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
Obama just happens to be the President when the "Dream is dead" reality has finally dawned on the American public.



This is true in some ways , but he has not helped himself either. The President is not wholly to blame .... Pelosi , Reid and other far left operators have hurt him. He would be far better served with a opposition house and Senate .... one that he has to work with and use political tactics to pass bills.

I still dont get the whole party of no label ... no doubt the GOP has said no . But the Dems have the majorities ... seems the most criticasl no's have been coming from their own party . He still stands up and blames the GOP .... what more does he need ?
I mean he had the most powerful governemnt at his command ... and is blaming the minority government party for his trouble... he does not realaize that America is still a right center country ... and does not like leftitist revolutionaries making policy.

Look ..the dream is not dead in America ! ... we must never beleive that . Defining the dream is a whole other story . If you dream of getting it handed to you because its fair then you are screwed in America and need to move. If you beleive in risk and reward ...freedome to fail and try again ... freedome from oppressive governemnt then stay and fight with us. Leftists should leave America .... they are not wanted here . There is pleanty of places around the world that could use you and your ideas ... its just not the American way. Does not make you a bad person ... its just not what we are in America.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:43 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
Yes Obama screwed up bigtime. He tricked the middle into thinking he would govern like a moderate Democrat and instead went back to his liberal far left vision of big government. Now the country has rejected him and Pelosi. He could have had 8 years easy and congress to if he just listened to the right people. Rahm was right that the people like Joan Walsh, Rachel Maddow, Jane Hamsher, George Soros and Arianna Huffington were "*ing *etarded" and that the UAW was a bunch of idiots.

Amen...I mean really cap and trade? The mere fact that it was being tossed around....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.

Absolutely...now couple in the fact that average American is overweight, unhealthy, and lives a sedentary lifestyle and costs will rise for everyone..
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santosdumont
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:45 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Leftists should leave America .... they are not wanted here

That's the kind of patently un-American jingoism that will doom the Republicans from within.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
AGM100
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:35 pm

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 19):
That's the kind of patently un-American jingoism that will doom the Republicans from within.



No ...its true and if the country rejects it and we head down the leftist trail then we will change and that is that. There is nothing wrong with our party standing up for their ideals ... even if they lose we need out parties to stand for what they believe in. If the country rejects them ...then that is the will of the majority .

If a citizen of the US .,.. would rather have immense social services and live a life like a western European then what is wrong with them moving there ? America is a center right country and I believe that will be proved again in this election ... why should leftists live in misery here when utopia is only a plane ride away ?

Americans are different ... we are independent people , we don't mind failing and risking our security for the chance to succeed . That flys in the face of the leftists nanny state safe existence idea . Nothing in life is fair or handed to you ; as soon as you learn to love the adventure and the satisfaction of achieving in the face of all odds you will be better of in America.

We do not want people coming here expecting Sweden ... it is not what we are. Sweden is great ... and if you want Sweden go there . That's all I am saying .
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:54 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
America is a center right country and I believe that will be proved again in this election

If America is truly a center right country, why have government services grown so much over the past 50 years....regardless of who had control of the White House/Congress?

If America is truly a center right country, why do Republicans struggle to get and keep control of Congress? Even when the Republicans have won control, they've never kept it for very long.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Look ..the dream is not dead in America ! ... we must never beleive that .

The dream isn't dead, however the dream never really existed for most Americans and never will. While there is no doubt that free market capitalism can produce great wealth and opportunity, the reality is that free market capitalism REQUIRES the majority of the population to toil near or in poverty.

For a while, the U.S. had some advantages over the rest of the world and hence got a disproportionate amount of the wealth. But as other countries catch up, the free market will redistribute much of that wealth elsewhere.
 
seb146
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
That flys in the face of the leftists nanny state safe existence idea . Nothing in life is fair or handed to you ; as soon as you learn to love the adventure and the satisfaction of achieving in the face of all odds you will be better of in America.

This is what the right does not get at all. The "leftists" want everyone to succeed. The "leftists" want everyone to be independant. However, the "leftists" are also realists. The "leftists" understand that not everyone starts off with a job or skills or money or health care. Not everyone has boot straps to pull themselves up with. Some of the rhetoric I have heard from the right over the past decades seems to be based on the assumption that people have stuff to start with: a job, a home, an education, money, health care, and that those things will continue for that person forever. The "leftists" are realists and understand that not everyone will always have a job, money, homes, health care, and the proper education forever. Which sets up things like food stamps and unemployment payments and public education. Everyone wants to beat the odds, but, in the United States, the "house" (read: corporations) will always win.
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Vio
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.



I'm not talking about dependencies here. I believe once you're 18 or out of post secondary school you are no longer a "dependent". What I mean is that families stick together. A nice big 5 bedroom home can be shared by mom, dad, the son and his new wife, each working and contributing so they help the family out.

Now as far as Health Care is concerned in USA, it still boggles the mind. I happened to get sick while visiting the US and had to make a visit to the hospital. Lucky for me, it turned out to be nothing more than a muscle, but I spent 3 hours in the ER and my bill was $4500. I didn't get any pills, I didn't have surgery. All I had was some basic blood work, an X-Ray and a 5 minute chat with a very kind, great doctor. $4500 for 3 hours!!! That's insane! (Good thing I had medical insurance)

Okay, now I understand the American health care is great (in terms of service), but it does come at a price and that too I understand, but I think this price is not a high price, it's an ASTRONOMICAL PRICE.

So what are the costs?
1. Good doctors are not cheap!
Great! Thank you! I need a good doctor and I think they deserve a lot of money. My little sister is 1 year away from graduating med school and she paid $200,000 just for the 4 years (never mind her undergrad.. and don't get me started on the cost of education). I know how hard she worked. But come on... American doctors are WAY overpaid. I know that, because 5 of our close family friends are doctors and 3 of them moved from Canada to the US because of way better pay.

2. Technology is expensive
Yes, very true, but again, prices are astronomical. I understand the amount of research that goes into this. I have been to countless Bio-Medical Engineering companies in USA and I saw the price the have to pay for good engineers and technology, starting from software to others... but again, ASTRONOMICAL PRICES

Insurance for hospital / medical staff
This is f*cking retarted. The United States of America is a "sue happy" country that everyone sues everyone for everything, hence the insurance premiums are ridiculous. This can easily be solved by making a law stating "Unless gross negligence has been proven, such as drinking on the job, etc" a doctor or medical staff cannot be sued. You'll see the need of Insurance disappear.

Drugs
The cost of prescription drugs / medication is insane as well... Drug companies with their tentacles in every branch of your government sure make a lot of dough... It's wrong when your senior citizens have to come abroad and buy drugs. What's even worse, is that some of them get charged (criminally) for coming over the border to buy the same drug for 50% less... Where's "the land of the free"?

Other costs
Okay, I don't even know where to start here. I get a pair of slippers in the hospital and they charge $250 for it... I don't see PRADA written on it. I bet they got it at Walmart for $2.19. And the costs keep adding up.

So the problem with your health care is not that it's bad. It's great, but the cost is ASTRONOMICAL. I'm not saying it should be peanuts, because good healthcare comes at a price, but what you guys have is beyond reasonable. When a family is financially ruined because of an illness, you know something is wrong with your system.

Look, my country (Canada) has its share of problems, but I can get good health care for almost nothing (well i do have to pay taxes), but if I have to get surgery I'm not going to have to sell my house for it. I was in the hospital for 10 days about 8years ago and I didn't pay a penny. Not one!

So let's not blame health care here, or the fact that Obama wants some sort of basic health care for every American, but blame the astronomical price of it. I know the US has a fobia toward the gouvernment but I trust them more to run my business than I trust private "for profit" corporations.

[Edited 2010-09-09 09:33:17]
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
We do not want people coming here expecting Sweden ... it is not what we are. Sweden is great ... and if you want Sweden go there . That's all I am saying .

We??? It is laughable that you presume to speak for the collective "We". You have consistently taken positions on this forum that represent views of the extreme right. To suggest that most Americans share your radical ideology is ludicrous.
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Boeing1970
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RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Interesting article in the NY Times today on Obama missing his chance

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/us/politics/09bai.html?_r=1&hp

The article breaks out the urgent spending to avoid a depression with the long term investments the country needs to make in order to compete internationally in the future.

Instead of focusing on spending that makes sense, like infrastructure, he spent money shoring up banks that should have been allowed to fail and efforting to pass health insurance that no one wanted.

So yeah, he missed his chance.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 24):
. To suggest that most Americans share your radical ideology is ludicrous.

You are the radical. Empowering government to have greater control of your life is not what America is about.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Look at the cost of living these days. And compare the distance between the highest paid employee (including CEOs) and the lowest. That ratio has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. $25 and hour is $50K a year.

So what.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Hmmm.... just one question. Why does everyone blame Obama?

Because he took a bad situation and made it worse by trying to play Santa Clause with the public till.

[Edited 2010-09-09 09:54:06]
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:01 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 24):
You have consistently taken positions on this forum that represent views of the extreme right.



Examples of extremism please ?

I come from a poor family with no boot straps at all ... I was born disadvantaged in many ways. I was not educated like some of my friends were ..in great colleges and with all the benefits of wealth. I ground it out , I put in the time I starved and lived on nothing... but kept positive and kept fighting. I never surrender and never expect my neighbor to help me out . I am self sufficient ... not rich but self made and free . Whatever I have , I have earned .. whatever I lose I alone have lost .

I Pay my taxes , I donate to charities , I volunteer in my community , I vote ,and most of all provide for my family . Yes to the left I am a radical and thank god for that !

That is the America that I love... if that is radical then so be it .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9102
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:47 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
regulations have made things costlier like health care

LOL! I love the idea of regulations in medicine.

All professionals required to pass a demanding test before they can work on you is actually a good thing.

Protecting us from drugs like thalidomide is a good thing.

Having government audits on hospitals is a good thing

Having minimum standards on insurance companies is a good thing - as is having tort laws when they screw you over.

What is about government standards and regulations that you don't like?

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 6):
This is only true if the money being spent is from the private sector and NOT tax paying dollars from the government to creat more government jobs.

A government job is still a job. The employee gets a pay check and spends it in the community. Buys a house. Gets a car. Pays local taxes that builds schools and pays for teachers.

As a modest estimate, each $1,000 spent in the community ends up generating another $3,000 to be spent.

The challenge therefore is to find the right balance for government - not to diss it automatically.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 6):
The key to a growing economy and job creation MUST be through the private sector.

Economic growth will come from increased confidence by consumers. The government has shown that it can stimulate growth: just look at the stimulus programs on houses and cars.

Quoting vio (Reply 7):
Not to sidetrack this conversation, but am I the only one in this world that feels like America is run by corportions / interest groups and not by the people?

Of course not - money talks in DC and the Republicans are the professionals at pulling it in. Democrats work hard at getting the cash, but too many are moderate or, dare I say it, liberal. That gets less money.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
As it turns out, the "greatest generation" did much better than subsequent generations of Americans - they were a "once in history" generation.

The Greatest Generation was exceptional, but they had a huge level of Government influence in their achievements. Remember that until JFK was elected the top tax rate was in the 90% range.

Those tax dollars went to fund infrastructure development, college educations and home ownership - not only in the US, but also in war torn Europe and Asia. The foundation laid during those years has repaid the taxpayers many times over and made life better for many around the world.

And it is most queer that so much was achieved under far higher taxes than today, yet there is so much winging about our very low taxes today - with far less achievements.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
That had never existed before and it doesn't look like it will EVER happen again -

It could happen again, as the referenced article pointed out. We're talking about long term investments in the country and that is what happened during the years of the Greatest Generation.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
(Social Security was NEVER intended to support retirees for 20-25 years after retiring - life expectancy wasn't nearly that long in the 1930's)

Social Security has been a commitment between employees and the government since it was started. You make your payments into the program and you get your monthly SS check when you retire. There have been on-going adjustments over the years but the commitment is one of the strongest that the government has today.

If the government walks away from this commitment why wouldn't our bond holders loose faith in the commitments they have from the government? The cost of becoming country selling junk bonds would be very expensive.

That means you focus on keeping SS alive and well. This country cannot afford a loss of faith in our debts by the debt holders, nor can it afford the elderly to become impoverished.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
the subsequent expansions of Medicare to earn political favor from senior citizens has bankrupted the nation because of the failure of our elected officials to effectively govern the nation for the past 30 years.

Bull. Medicare costs are lower than private insurance costs and, if you carry a supplemental, you don't get hit with 6 digit debt that can (and certainly does) happen when a major illness hits your family. I know that for a fact as I've been there after my wife was diagnosed with acute leukemia.

Comparing the rip offs of totally private care to Medicare is a joke. Private care is fully driven by the profit motive. Medicare is focused on delivering care that won't leave the patient and their family bankrupt, or under a huge debt.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 13):
Yes, in the case of real estate...homes were built and then given to people who couldn't afford them in the first place thanks to the government...
That was actually the Clinton Administration's fault...It's called social engineering....

Clinton called for people in lower income levels to have housing available - just like the successful 235 program in the early 70s. My first home was a modest GI Bill home and there were 235s in the neighborhood, as well as young professionals buying a starter home. The goal of this type of program is something we should work towards continually.

The problem with the "modern programs" is the rip off artists in real estate, finance and insurance that took the country for a ride. Turn, Baby, Turn was the mantra and they would turn anyone with a heartbeat. (Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they sold homes to dead people also.)

Were some buyers dumb to go for a home they couldn't afford? Sure. But the gamers were crafty and took us all for a ride. While those companies playing the game will have some good, decent people working for them it probably would have been better to let the crooks and bums fail & fall into bankruptcy. But then we probably would have gone into a full depression.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
He tricked the middle into thinking he would govern like a moderate Democrat and instead went back to his liberal far left vision of big government.

There is no middle ground for conservatives these days. If it ain't up to Tea Party standards it's bloody liberal and should be kicked out of government.  Wow!

Health care reform was at a moderate level. Really amazing that people on the right complain about ending pre-existing conditions exclusions for children. Equally amazing that the Republican Tea Party approach will be to slash & burn these types of improvements.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26?

BFD. That might make it more affordable for getting advanced degrees or simply getting a head start in life.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
It's about time people recognize that Obama hasn't demonstrated meaningful leadership, which is not unexpected from a man whose most significant leadership experience prior to the Presidency was managing a Presidential campaign.

Obama has done fairly well, but the right will never acknowledge that. Their preference is President Bush and CEO Cheney. Oooops - they were the ones that left us on the path to a depression, with Obama stopping it at the Great Recession level. Another year of the Pres CEO team and we would have been in a depression.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
The former are passionate in their dislike for the Obama administration. I can't image how you win back those voters.

And how many of these "passionate" people simply hate the fact that there is a black man in the White House - and he's not the butler?
 
pnqiad
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:05 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:38 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 25):
Instead of focusing on spending that makes sense, like infrastructure, he spent money shoring up banks that should have been allowed to fail and efforting to pass health insurance that no one wanted.

Not to get too technical here but bank bailout or TARP was passed in October 2008 under GWB.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8654
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
And how many of these "passionate" people simply hate the fact that there is a black man in the White House - and he's not the butler?

I can't be sure, but a lot of them voted for him in 2008! So much for the race card...   

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Obama has done fairly well, but the right will never acknowledge that.

I will acknowledge that he has done well at passing bills that mainstream America does not want.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Their preference is President Bush and CEO Cheney. Oooops - they were the ones that left us on the path to a depression, with Obama stopping it at the Great Recession level.

~60 days to midterm elections and still with Bush! Your worldview is going down in flames, I know, but please find some new material   

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
BFD. That might make it more affordable for getting advanced degrees or simply getting a head start in life.

By shifting your true costs of living onto others - not just your parents - for a longer period of time while you do not perform work. There is no free lunch. This is what is driving us broke.
 
Starbuk7
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:09 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:51 pm

Quoting pnqiad (Reply 28):
Not to get too technical here but bank bailout or TARP was passed in October 2008 under GWB.


By a Democratic Congress but we all seem to forget that as well!!
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
A government job is still a job. The employee gets a pay check and spends it in the community. Buys a house. Gets a car. Pays local taxes that builds schools and pays for teachers.

Where does that government worker get his paycheck from? The government. Now how does the government get that money? Taxes. Where do those taxes come from? The people. A job just isnt a job. When you have more jobs in the government sector, costs start to go way up for the government to maintain those jobs and bennifits. That all comes from taxes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Economic growth will come from increased confidence by consumers. The government has shown that it can stimulate growth: just look at the stimulus programs on houses and cars.

Yeah we see how that has worked so far for the stimulus bills and programs. Bush started something that only led to Obama doing the same foolishness. Creat a job? We should say a "temp" job. What does that do for someone in the long run? Also, we do not know how the car and house stimulus incentives will work because these people still need to keep jobs in order to make those payments on the cars and houses they just bought because of a "stimulus". Dont call something a success right when it happens...wait or the results.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9102
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
If the country rejects them ...then that is the will of the majority .

Doesn't work out that way. The right has the money to be an oppressive opposition, especially when the Democrats didn't put a white guy in the White House. Since the '08 Elections we have had a continual stream of hate directed at those who don't march lock kneed with the hard right. I believe that the impact of the current opposition is a delay in rebuilding our economy. It erodes the confidence of the consumer and the credibility of our government. But that's a small price for conservatives to pay to get back into power.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
Americans are different ... we are independent people , we don't mind failing and risking our security for the chance to succeed . That flys in the face of the leftists nanny state safe existence idea . Nothing in life is fair or handed to you ; as soon as you learn to love the adventure and the satisfaction of achieving in the face of all odds you will be better of in America.

After marrying a Aussie/Scot and living Down Under for some years it's easy for me to see that America is not as different as some people would like to believe.

We are still a melting pot and it won't be long before the WASP is in the minority. Some other countries a predominately one group, but we are based on immigration from a wide range of places. (So is Australia these days.)

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
If America is truly a center right country, why do Republicans struggle to get and keep control of Congress? Even when the Republicans have won control, they've never kept it for very long.

White Americans "may" be central right, but I believe most Americans prefer to see the sick cared for and the hungry fed. Those are significant liberal thoughts, but true.

The Republican Party had problems during the Bush/Cheney years because of the horrid decision to start an unnecessary war and the total failure to foresee the financial issues and take actions needed to avoid the Great Recession. Other times Democrats gain favor because of a bad economy (Clinton), moral issues (Carter) or simply because it was time for a change (JFK).

Quoting vio (Reply 23):
What I mean is that families stick together. A nice big 5 bedroom home can be shared by mom, dad, the son and his new wife, each working and contributing so they help the family out.

I saw that fairly often in PER. A new migrant family would all work together to buy the first house and pay it off. Then there would be the second home, then the third. By now even the grandkids would have their own home and it would be paid for. Pretty smart if you ask me!

Quoting vio (Reply 23):
Drugs
The cost of prescription drugs / medication is insane as well... Drug companies with their tentacles in every branch of your government sure make a lot of dough... It's wrong when your senior citizens have to come abroad and buy drugs. What's even worse, is that some of them get charged (criminally) for coming over the border to buy the same drug for 50% less... Where's "the land of the free"?

It's the Pharma Rip Off. We've known about it for years, but the industry pays some very major money to politicians so, of course, they can rip us off.

Quoting vio (Reply 23):
Insurance for hospital / medical staff
This is f*cking retarted. The United States of America is a "sue happy" country that everyone sues everyone for everything, hence the insurance premiums are ridiculous. This can easily be solved by making a law stating "Unless gross negligence has been proven, such as drinking on the job, etc" a doctor or medical staff cannot be sued. You'll see the need of Insurance disappear.

I'll agree that there needs to be standards for filing a lawsuit. Genuine issues, however, are best handled in a tort environment.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 25):
Instead of focusing on spending that makes sense, like infrastructure, he spent money shoring up banks that should have been allowed to fail and efforting to pass health insurance that no one wanted.

While I would have loved to see some of those banks and insurance companies fail the cost to the country, I believe, would have been a true depression. We got too close to one as it is. So I'll go along with keeping them alive, but believe that any interest they pay on the bail out money should not be a tax deduction. And the ones who played the games should be heading to prison as well as face some heavy fines that wipe out most of the ill gotten gains they made.

On the health reform side, I think it was a good start. But then I watched as our health insurance costs went through the roof. I've seen employers already moving away from full premium benefits and more & more dropping health insurance totally.

Me? I'd prefer to see a tax on profits to pay for health care instead of basically a "tax" in the form of a health insurance benefit. That can lead to greater employment as well as stronger international competitive positions for US companies.

Now that's a radical left wing idea - moving towards a system that boosts employment and increases international competitiveness.  Wow!
Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 25):
So what.

You sound like Cheney!         

But there is a need to worry as the greater the disparity the thinner the economic ice we will be walking on.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 26):
I Pay my taxes , I donate to charities , I volunteer in my community , I vote ,and most of all provide for my family . Yes to the left I am a radical and thank god for that !

Hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of people on the left and in the middle are exactly the same.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 15):
I think it's too early for that call. As a comparison, Bill Clinton's approval rating was down to about 40% at a similar time in office, comparable to Obama's right now, and he was reelected.
Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 15):
Or to give a republican example, Reagan's approval rating was down to 35% in January '83, and he was reelected in '84.

This is quite a different time in this country's history. I will give Obama the benefit of this comparison but as I look back to the Clinton's admin it was far better than this one.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
It's about time people recognize that Obama hasn't demonstrated meaningful leadership, which is not unexpected from a man whose most significant leadership experience prior to the Presidency was managing a Presidential campaign.

Well this is because he is not a leader. He won the election more because Rudy and McCain lost it and the timing was right and CNN and MSNBC did a great job at scaring the hell out of people. Like I said once the lights went on and he had to actually perform he found the left wing media couldn't carry him and then instead of listening to Rahm he let Pelosi continue to lead the party. Big mistake.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 19):
That's the kind of patently un-American jingoism that will doom the Republicans from within.

It is a bit harsh but true. When you get down to it this country is a center right place and will never tolerate the Arianna Huffington vision of what we should be. It's costing the Dems dearly.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
If America is truly a center right country, why do Republicans struggle to get and keep control of Congress? Even when the Republicans have won control, they've never kept it for very long.

It's a cycle and the 24 hours news boom has helped but basically remember that policians both left and right lie and it catches up to them next time at the ballot box.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
This is what the right does not get at all. The "leftists" want everyone to succeed. The "leftists" want everyone to be independant. However, the "leftists" are also realists. The "leftists" understand that not everyone starts off with a job or skills or money or health care. Not everyone has boot straps to pull themselves up with. Some of the rhetoric I have heard from the right over the past decades seems to be based on the assumption that people have stuff to start with: a job, a home, an education, money, health care, and that those things will continue for that person forever. The "leftists" are realists and understand that not everyone will always have a job, money, homes, health care, and the proper education forever. Which sets up things like food stamps and unemployment payments and public education. Everyone wants to beat the odds, but, in the United States, the "house" (read: corporations) will always win.

This is total bunk, my family came here from Italy dirt poor. My father and all his brothers and sister got out there and got a job and health care. Is it hard for some? Sure. We need social services but to say we have to have a social structure like Sweden because for some it's impossible to find and earn a living is just more smoke.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
There is no middle ground for conservatives these days. If it ain't up to Tea Party standards it's bloody liberal and should be kicked out of government.

Oh hogwash, the notion that the tea party is running the GOP is a MSNBC sound byte. It's not reality. Just because Rush and Palin are getting constant coverage from Chris Matthews doesn't qualify them as elected officials.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:57 pm

Quoting pnqiad (Reply 28):
Not to get too technical here but bank bailout or TARP was passed in October 2008 under GWB.



Thank you ! but that is the politics of the past .... that is the reason we are in the ditch remember? .

Now when President Obama figures out how to say ... "I am continuing the Bush policy of big spending " "Just like the GOP did before me " Then he will be playing real sharp stick politics. I would recommend he soon come out and point those facts out ..and essentially align himself with those policies and the continuance of them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
We are still a melting pot and it won't be long before the WASP is in the minority



Your talking about race ... I am not . It does not matter to me what race you are ... as long as you are against big government nanny state.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Those are significant liberal thoughts, but true.



Those ideas are mere tools of the liberals to excuse robbing people's money for more and more programs.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of people on the left and in the middle are exactly the same.



Of course , and they are the ones who will be voting for conservtives eventualy . But it will take a while yet ... things will have to get much worse . They will if we continue .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Boeing1970
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:24 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:58 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
But there is a need to worry as the greater the disparity the thinner the economic ice we will be walking on.

The only time the ice gets thin is when the government overspends on social programs because there is no return on that investment.

You build roads; you get a return in productivity.
You build runways; you get a return in productivity.
You spend military dollars; you get a return in technology.

You write a welfare check, you create a couch potato and a society that says... Well , if things don't work out, then the government will just take care of me.

Why bother being productive? Why take a minimum wage job at the 7-11 if the welfare check nets you three times as much income? Why save for retirement when the government gives you social security? Heck, run up your debt and spend every dime you have because in the end when you can't work anymore, the government will provide!

Do you not see what social programs have created?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
The Greatest Generation was exceptional,

The greatest generation was exceptional because they believed in hard work. Their children (most of our parents - aka the baby boomers) have to be the most self serving and self absorbed generation ever.

And they call us the "ME" generation...  
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9102
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:08 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
I will acknowledge that he has done well at passing bills that mainstream America does not want.

Health Care Reform still bugging you? That was clear during the campaign and Republicans passed up a chance to have more influence in the design. Being opposed was more important than making it better.

Bail out money? Started under Bush/Cheney. Like it or not there were some companies saved and jobs are still there. Just not as much as before.

I guess you would prefer a pile of dead, large companies. assets and jobs lost, and a total loss of confidence in the economy.

I'm surprised it wasn't bad enough for you as it was and is today.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
~60 days to midterm elections and still with Bush! Your worldview is going down in flames, I know, but please find some new material

Why not remember Bush & Cheney? We are still in their Great Recession. Still suffering as a country. Still burying dead shoulders that would have been alive if Bush/Cheney hadn't been so horribly wrong. Still sending Americans into rehab, helping them recover from their war wounds.

You want us to forget all that? And vote for the same group that was such a spectacular failure in the Bush/Cheney years.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
By shifting your true costs of living onto others - not just your parents - for a longer period of time while you do not perform work. There is no free lunch. This is what is driving us broke.

Most young adults in that age group are not demanding on the medical cost side. Many will never see a doctor during the first half of their 20s. They aren't driving us broke - especially since their parents have been covered for years.

Some will get sick and they need protected by decent insurance. Prime age for some nasty problems, like testicular cancer.

Between high school and their 26th year there are a lot of opportunities to get a head start and that will pay benefits in the long term.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 30):
By a Democratic Congress but we all seem to forget that as well!!

The Democrats were in power because of the SNAFUs and FUBARS of the Republicans. What's new?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
CNN and MSNBC did a great job at scaring the hell out of people.

You forgot FOX, Rush, etc. The Democrats had a pathetic over the air voice compared to the conservatives.

But the voters filled in their own report card on conservative.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Oh hogwash, the notion that the tea party is running the GOP is a MSNBC sound byte. It's not reality. Just because Rush and Palin are getting constant coverage from Chris Matthews doesn't qualify them as elected officials.

Rush & Palin are not the problem - it's the voters that actually listen to them and believe they are right that scares the hell out of me. Toss in Beck too. And I'm not a MSNBC fan - as much as you want me to bee seen as one. If I watch politics on the news I'll pass on both MSNBC and FOX as CNN consistently has both sides of the aisle on and they aren't talking like a bunch of loonies.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 34):
as long as you are against big government nanny state.

What is unacceptable about the concept of Social Security?

Or caring for the sick with Medicare and Medicaid?

Or ensuring kids are fed at school (helps them get better grades)?

Or taking care of our Veterans?

Or ensuring that people have food to eat - especially after we pay farmers not to grow too much?

To some degree taxes are how we achieve a civilization. And you need to decide if cash is more important than country. Personally I'll put country first any day.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 34):
Those ideas are mere tools of the liberals to excuse robbing people's money for more and more programs.

OK.

Feeding the hungry and caring for the sick is a liberal's excuse to rob healthy, well fed people of their money.

Too liberal for you, neo-cons and Tea Party types.

So let's watch the political ads between now and the election and see just how clear the Republican Tea Partier is in defining how they will end these types of programs. LOL! No way will they be honest and blunt about that.

Or maybe someone will bring it up in a debate and we can see how fast they back down.


Quoting AGM100 (Reply 34):
Of course , and they are the ones who will be voting for conservtives eventualy .



You think? My wife fits that group - mother was a war widow who raised 3 kids and did a damn good job of it. (Two are medical professionals.) You think after seeing the problems the conservatives have brought us that she would be a conservative? Maybe it's the insurance company rip offs that will convert her.

She's a therapist and has seen far too much over the years NOT to want strong public programs not controlled by insurance companies. She may be exceptionally well trained in her profession, but her desire to care for others was just as important as her training. The type of person won't become a conservative unless they have a brain injury.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 35):
The only time the ice gets thin is when the government overspends on social programs because there is no return on that investment.

The ice gets very thin when you push the minimum wage too far below the poverty line. Over spending on government programs has nothing to do with it.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 35):
Their children (most of our parents - aka the baby boomers) have to be the most self serving and self absorbed generation ever.

Since I'm in just retirement I guess you would say I'm part of the "self serving" generation.

But the generation you look down our nose at has had their own achievements. First, we kept the Interstate development system growing. Our generation has a lot of medical achievements in drugs, surgical procedures (laparoscopic surgery is one) and medical devices (MRIs to cpaps).

Our generation moved computers from the computer room to the living room. Brought in the Internet into a viable form. Mobile phones.

Our generation raised the safety standards on cars to the point that the death toll is being reduced.

Improved aviation.

Increased food production on the same amount of space.

Our generation was drafted by the Greatest Generation to fight the war in Vietnam. We didn't like it (and we were right) but love of country was instilled into us by those in the Greatest Generation. Especially from WW II.

All I see from today's generations is crying over taxes like some wimp who isn't getting their way.

And while your generation has a few successes (Google & Facebook come to mind  ) you have a very long way to go before your generation matches the achievements of mine.
 
seb146
Posts: 14348
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:50 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
This is total bunk, my family came here from Italy dirt poor. My father and all his brothers and sister got out there and got a job and health care. Is it hard for some? Sure. We need social services but to say we have to have a social structure like Sweden because for some it's impossible to find and earn a living is just more smoke.

Have you tried making a living or "keeping up with the Jonses" on minimum wage? Forget that. Have you tried surviving on minimum wage? These people that had their good paying jobs shipped to India and China so corporations could save a buck for the CEO and board. Those out of work now have to pay a mortgage, health care, food, and education on minimum wage. Without any help from anyone. It would have worked in the "olden days" before corporations got ahold of the governement. Now? Forget it!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Just because Rush and Palin are getting constant coverage from Chris Matthews doesn't qualify them as elected officials.

Rush and Palin get enough coverage from FOX and their own listeners because anyone who disagrees with them are labled as "extremists" and "communists" and "socialist" and so forth. Maybe if we actually had a dissenting opinion and were allowed to have opposition instead of "you are wrong because FOX says so" then maybe we as a nation could move forward.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:28 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 13):
That was actually the Clinton Administration's fault...It's called social engineering....

and in particular Barney Frank.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9102
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:36 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
and in particular Barney Frank.

And, except for the big ride the realtors, banks and insurance companies took, how does the Clinton/Frank program differ from the 235 program my neighbors bought their homes with 40 years ago?

From all I can tell the differences are simple:

235 homes were modest starter homes, the last program for some reason allowed realtors & mortgage lenders to boost the available markets. Boosted their profits big time and ended up with a crisis big time.

Next time we look at a program we need to bring back older programs that didn't bring the glorious profits at the cost to taxpayers.
 
Boeing1970
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:24 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
First, we kept the Interstate development system growing.

No, your parents built it. All you did was use it. Now in your last breath you are pushing to stop it.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 35):
Our generation has a lot of medical achievements in drugs, surgical procedures (laparoscopic surgery is one) and medical devices (MRIs to cpaps).

Led by your parents. But as usual, you take credit for their work. Your generation wasn't old enough or experienced enough. Laparascopic surgury dates to the early 1900's. The first MRI was in 1973 - Damadian, Lauterbur, and Mansfield were not a baby boomers.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Our generation moved computers from the computer room to the living room.

Acutally, we drove this, not you. Most of you aren't receptive enough to such technology invented by your parents. A very small contingent of your generation made the computer smaller, your praents made it connected on their way to retirement. The societal benefits however remain yet to be seen.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Our generation raised the safety standards on cars to the point that the death toll is being reduced.

Your parents did this. You only continued their work.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Improved aviation.

Must be why we're still so dependent on navigation systems invented by your grandparents.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 34):
Increased food production on the same amount of space.

Actually, not many of you are farmers. It was too much phycial labor for your generation. That said, your parents were heavily into farming and most worked into their late 70's. Oddly, our generation is seeing a return to farming.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Our generation was drafted by the Greatest Generation to fight the war in Vietnam. We didn't like it (and we were right) but love of country was instilled into us by those in the Greatest Generation. Especially from WW II.

You might have been drafted, but you complained about it loudly and stomped your feet like spoiled brats. We volunteered and went proudly only to come home to many of you denigrating us with your hangover protests from the 1960's calling us baby killers.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 35):
All I see from today's generations is crying over taxes like some wimp who isn't getting their way.

We believe in less government and increased personal accountability, something we learned from the greatest generation - because you were so busy with your personal lives that you left us with your parents. This is in direct retaliation of your generations complete lack of personal responsibility. You are the first generation that put yourself (your careers) before your children. Your generation systematically destroyed the nuclear family, fortunately, our generation has begun to correct this since the mid 1990s.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
And while your generation has a few successes (Google & Facebook come to mind ) you have a very long way to go before your generation matches the achievements of mine.

You have spent our capital, wrecked our financial system, destroyed the countrys moral fabric and left us with so much debt we will be lucky to stop working before we physically can't work anymore. You're right. We have a very long way to go to recover from this. God help us.

[Edited 2010-09-10 10:17:49]
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5288
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:15 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
We believe in less government and increased personal accountability, something we learned from the greatest generation - because you were so busy with your personal lives that you left us with your parents.

You might want to check your history books. Most of the great social welfare programs were actually started by the "greatest generation" or even their parents. And no generation has been more reliant on government retirement programs (social security, pensions, medicare) than the "greatest generation." In fact, one of the reasons that many of our social welfare programs are in such bad shape is that the "greatest generation" has fought vigorously to prevent those programs from being changed. The "greatest generation" achieved many things, but they have proven themeselve to be heavily reliant on government.
 
Boeing1970
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:24 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
You might want to check your history books. Most of the great social welfare programs were actually started by the "greatest generation" or even their parents. And no generation has been more reliant on government retirement programs (social security, pensions, medicare) than the "greatest generation." In fact, one of the reasons that many of our social welfare programs are in such bad shape is that the "greatest generation" has fought vigorously to prevent those programs from being changed. The "greatest generation" achieved many things, but they have proven themeselve to be heavily reliant on government.


Its not about the creation of or even the existence of social programs, its about the abuse of it by Boomers which is why our generation is so against the expansion of it.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5288
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 42):
Its not about the creation of or even the existence of social programs, its about the abuse of it by Boomers which is why our generation is so against the expansion of it.

Most Boomers have not even begun to collect Medicare or Social Security, so I don't know how they could be abusing them. Most of the problems that these programs are experiencing are because of over-reliance by the "greatest generation"...most of whom relied heavily on the government to take care of them and have taken out of the program vastly more than they put in (even adjusting for inflation/return on investment).

There's no doubt that as the Boomers retire they will place an even greater strain on these programs. However, your current blame of the Boomers is a bit misplaced.

[Edited 2010-09-10 10:42:06]
 
Boeing1970
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:24 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Most Boomers have not even begun to collect Medicare or Social Security, so I don't know how they could be abusing them.

All tied to this:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Your generation systematically destroyed the nuclear family

Look at the number of kids in their 30's today who had parents that lived off of social programs because of a complete breakdown of the family unit. Whats coming is an entirely different matter.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9102
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:04 pm

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
No, your parents built it. All you did was use it.

LOL! Are you nuts or what? Mine was the first generation that paid gas taxes for the Interstate System their entire driving life (and continuing well into the future, I hope). And we're still building (and repairing it) because it is vital. We're still paying and we're still building and maintaining it.

Look back to the Reagan Years when old Ronald wanted to add a 5¢ a gallon tax to maintain that system. Our generation had no problem with that and still pay that tax. Your generation will probably wine about high taxes and get it cut.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Led by your parents. But as usual, you take credit for their work.

Every generation should be building on the next. It's stupid not to, which means your generation will probably fail in that area.

I do find it more than a little queer that you believe nothing came from my generation. Absurd generalizations doesn't reflect reality - only hate. That's your problem, not mine.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Laparascopic surgury dates to the early 1900's.

Laparoscopic surgery started gaining widespread use in the '80s when We were being so spoiled. They didn't have the technology in the 1900s to develop the electronic technology that is used today. And it was just this year that the first large intestine was removed using the procedure.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Acutally, we drove this, not you.

You were buying PCs in the early 80s? Did you buy a Commodore or a Trash 80?

I first programmed using punch cards and went through the entire transition from then on. My kids were the first in my family to have their own computer for college, but I made the decision to make the investment and I paid for the computers and the rest of the college educations.

Again you don't know what you're talking about. No surprise there.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Most of you aren't receptive enough to such technology invented by your parents.

I bought our first family computer around '83. An Atari, actually.

Who took technology invented by their parents. Think about it - do you really believe that the Greatest Generation invented Biology, Calculus, Electrical Engineering, Anatomy, Chemistry, Etc.?

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
The societal benefits however remain yet to be seen.

Your generation is so busy texting, Tweeting and living on Facebook that you can's see the benefits normal people get. That's your problem, not mine.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
You might have been drafted, but you complained about it loudly and stomped your feet like spoiled brats.

I wasn't drafted, dude. I walked into the Navy recruiters office and signed up for a 4 year enlistment.

And that was because of the sense of duty my generation was taught. We served, and I was proud to wear the uniform.

And the country did change during the long failure we call the Vietnam War. Vets came home from that war and publicly said we could not win. Walter Cronkite, a highly respected Greatest Generation journalist made it clear on his news show that the war was not winnable.

We lost 55,000+ good Americans over there because ignorance in the SecDef's office (sound familiar) and people gradually came to understand the insanity of that way. And the costs in terms of blood and treasure.

And my service was between '66 and '70, with 3 deployments and no stomping my feet.

You obviously didn't see the other side of the coin in those days or you never would have made that statement.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
We volunteered and went proudly only to come home to many of you denigrating us with your hangover protests from the 1960's calling us baby killers.

So what makes you different? What makes you so bloody special?

Think you are the only generation that volunteered?

The main difference is that YOU get paid a hell of a lot more than my generation during your service. We started at $20 a week, less taxes. The death benefit during the Vietnam War was $10,000 - the same as it had been in WW II.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
We believe in less government and increased personal accountability, something we learned from the greatest generation

You can believe in that. Doesn't bother me a bit. But it will be interesting when you actually TRY to make that work. you can't do that job successfully because it is nothing more that the spoiled "me" generation not wanting to pay taxes.

Go back a look at the tax tables for the greatest generation in the '50s. Now look at your tax tables today, compare them with the 50s and try to figure out who effectively used government to better the country - even when it required paying higher taxes than we do today.

One huge reason why your generation can't match theirs is that you will not be willing to match their efforts for a partnership between the government and the people.

You'll rip the heart out of that partnership, endure major failures and then find someone else to blame it on.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
because you were so busy with your personal lives that you left us with your parents.

Bingo! There is the problem and it is yours. Our parents would babysit periodically, but our kids had at least one parent in the house every night. My wife went on business trips and so did I, but there was always one parent with the kids.

And today we're enjoying our grandkids as much as possible. They consider our home as their second home, have their won room to sleep in when they can stay overnight and have their own bookmarks on our notebooks.

And if you can handle it check out yesterday's article:

Quote:
Grandparents increasingly fill need as caregivers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2010/09/09/AR2010090904076.html

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
The "greatest generation" achieved many things, but they have proven themeselve to be heavily reliant on government.

The Greatest Generation didn't see "government" as evil - it saw them as a partner in so many areas. Look at what was achieved with the GI Bill after WW II. That was a government program - an entitlement. And it was used effectively, moving the country forward in many areas.

Looking back from WW II though JFKs years the public understood that tax money was required to get needed jobs done. LBJ screwed things up a bit in terms of the war, but he still managed to move on Civil Rights and Medicare.

It is important to understand, however, that many achievements of that generation wold not have been possible without that partnership.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 40):
Must be why we're still so dependent on navigation systems invented by your grandparents.

Actually, "navigation" goes back hundreds of years. Each generation improves it, which is how it should be.

So can you point at any achievements you made in this area that doesn't rely on the work of those who went before you?

Facebook? Wow! I'm impressed.
 
Boeing1970
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:24 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:14 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
Wow! I'm impressed.

Thanks for proving my initial point on your generation:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 35):
The greatest generation was exceptional because they believed in hard work. Their children (most of our parents - aka the baby boomers) have to be the most self serving and self absorbed generation ever.

Your grandious proclimations of the greatness of your generation only re-enforce the statement.

We (your kids) aren't impressed.
 
RottenRay
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:43 am

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:25 am

First of all, this prattle about the "private sector" and "free market" gives me a headache because of the mystical worship some have for both.

Realistically, the "private sector" in the US is now a short list of large corporations. It is not the small businessman, and the longer we pretend that the "private sector" is even interested in saving us, the worse things will get.

The "private sector" as we think of it is gone. It is instead a group of large investors who have a fetish for richness. They are willing to deny health insurance to increase profits, willing to sell dangerous products because the markup is higher, and are more than happy when they can pay less in taxes than they honestly should pay by exploiting every well-intentioned loophole and using every delaying mechanism possible.

(Google black liquor tax credit for an example. Nicely, this loophole was closed with - gasp! - the health bill...)


Next, we keep hearing about the value of the "free market" and how government regulations are killing it.

Free market capitalism is not a pleasant thing, and is not a sustainable system if left unregulated or under-regulated. It will morph into something between extortion and piracy.

Some people think that a free market system provides lower consumer prices, which is not the case. Pricing is whatever the market will pay.

Free market capitalism doesn't ensure creation of local jobs, either, especially in a global economy where labor can be outsourced for the purpose of enhancing the profitability of a company. The use of cheap labor while selling the product in a richer market is a time-honored way to enhance the bottom line - and it hurts when YOUR job is replaced in the process.

Competition is the enemy of every "free market" capitalist - which is why corporations expend so much effort on destroying or buying competing concerns, and suing and harassing those they can't.

This is why the US has law against monopolies, antitrust law, law against price fixing and price gouging, and law against usery.

Without these "hinderances," your heroes would be free to reach a private agreement amongst themselves and jack the price of milk up to $10 a gallon.

A few summers ago, the oil industry got very close to "coming to the attention" of the government when gas spiked up to nearly $5 per gallon. Lucky for the oil people - the DOJ of the moment wasn't interested in doing more than issuing memos.


And finally... Why all the animosity for those who have government jobs? Why is it bad for a government job to pay well and provide decent benefits?

Do you really want underpaid, unhealthy and unhappy people designing your cities, inspecting your buildings, inspecting your water, food, highways?



My guess is that your heroes in the free market have left you twisting in the wind.

Jobs have dried up to reduce payroll, to assure stockholders still get their cut, and that the current generation of "McTycoons" can still build their personal wealth by any means possible.

Someone used the old, cliched phrase "succeed against all odds," or something like it.

These days, "succeeding against all odds" might involve speaking Chinese and working in an environment you would consider both hostile and primitive.

Anyone who thinks the government is at fault is right.

Corporations have been given far too many ways to maximize their bottom lines without being required to be "good citizens" and preserve the health of the market they're doing business in.

But if you expect this same bunch of robber barons to save you, think again. They will continue to end your jobs to make sure they can afford the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.



It's time we started holding our government to higher standards, and it's time we realize we need good government. Not the "smaller government" myth the right-wingers patter about - good government.



RR
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:36 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
The Greatest Generation didn't see "government" as evil - it saw them as a partner in so many areas. Look at what was achieved with the GI Bill after WW II.

Oh well Ken, they say the victors get to write the history, and the next generation by definition are victors in that they live longer. Mind you, if they try so grossly to rewrite history as in the exchange you refer to, they will find the next generation again will get the history correct in the end.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:13 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
Look back to the Reagan Years when old Ronald wanted to add a 5¢ a gallon tax to maintain that system

Actually it was Dan Rostenkowski that brought that up. Reagan went along because to no do so would have hurt his defense buildup.

http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readin...9C2BF852574D5003C28D5?OpenDocument

One week after the 1982 election, in a speech to the American Petroleum Institute in Houston, Rostenkowski, chair of the Ways and Means committee, declared that Congress must raise the gasoline tax by 5 cents a gallon. The purpose of the tax was not to reduce energy consumption or balance the budget or fight inflation but to repair the nation's roads and bridges.43

Despite the absence of a coup, Reagan acknowledged two weeks later that a gas "user fee" was under discussion.44 And two weeks after that he announced his plan to ask the lame-duck Congress to increase the gas tax and earmark the funds for highways, bridges, and mass transit.45


Gas taxes are an example of a misnamed "userfee". Gas taxes, along with vehicle registrations, and in some States vehicle inspections are nothing more than a toll to use the roads.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
I do find it more than a little queer that you believe nothing came from my generation.

Unless you have failed to update your profile, you are a boomer. Boomers were the very first "me" generation. They defined, and continue to define what follow on generations have and continue to add to, that is, "I want therefore I should have".

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
And that was because of the sense of duty my generation was taught. We served, and I was proud to wear the uniform.

You mean like this?




I wasn't able to find any pictures of any of the "greatest generation" burning their draft notices.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
Walter Cronkite, a highly respected Greatest Generation journalist made it clear on his news show that the war was not winnable.

Up to that point. After that everything he said was suspect since he had let his obvious bias out of the bag. He cost more lives with that statement than he saved.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
because it is nothing more that the spoiled "me" generation not wanting to pay taxes.

That spoiled generation would include your own.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
The Greatest Generation didn't see "government" as evil

Neither did the Germans see Hitler as evil until it was too late. No one is saying government is all evil. Goverment that intrudes into every fawcett of your life as this one is, is inherently evil as it saps the individuals freedom to succeed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
LBJ screwed things up a bit in terms of the war, but he still managed to move on Civil Rights and Medicare.

Yep, that medicare thing, the GAO hit the cost right on the nail head didn't they? How far is it in the hole now?

Quoting rottenray (Reply 47):
Realistically, the "private sector" in the US is now a short list of large corporations. It is not the small businessman, and the longer we pretend that the "private sector" is even interested in saving us, the worse things will get.

I don't know where you live but I can drive a mile circle from my home and count probably a hundred small businesses of all types and not one large corporation.


Let's see, the title of the thread is "Did Obama miss his chance?". Well since he was rolled immediately by Pelosi and Reid on a number of bills (as predicted) I guess you could rightfully say he never had a chance. What he has proven is how inept he and his administration full of academics and other that have never really had to meet a payroll or do anything but theorize are at running things. He keeps repeating how this is the worst recession since the great depression and by and large thanks to his administrations policies, that is exactly what it is turning into. The recession '82 to '84 had higher unemployment and had to contend with higher interest rates but lasted a shorter amount of time because President Reagan, who had to contend with a democratically controlled Congress after the '82 midterm elections got things done in a bipartisan fashion rather than just saying a minority was holding him up. Since President Obama has done little to compromise and most everyone can see that the democrats (BTW, the President himself referred to members of his own party as "democrats" no less than 3 times in yesterdays stump speech with a couple of questions tossed in for window dressing so they could "call" it a press conference so that issue is settled for the time being) have had it all their own way the past two years and have had control of Congress for the past 4 "own" the economy now, he has no one to blame but Pelosi and Reid for his and his party's perdicament.
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