dxing
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:40 pm

32 more moderate members of the democratic party have stated that taxes shouldn't be raised on anyone in the middle of a recession. Their pleas so far have fallen on deaf ears from their leaders. Good luck getting anything passed before January Libs.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100916/ap_on_bi_ge/us_tax_cuts_62


The divisions extended well into Democratic ranks on Capitol Hill. Moderates and conservatives in tight races were skittish about the prospect of being branded tax hikers at the height of election season if a bill to let taxes rise for the
wealthy is brought up for debate. Other Democrats said they relish the idea of holding a vote to extend only the middle class tax cuts and daring Republicans to vote against it.


As it stands lib democrats have to worry about their own moderate and conservative members voting for it. Just like the health care bill, how many votes will have to be bought?


Underlying all of this is, how is it paid for? The President and the leadership in the House and Senate have not said how the tax cuts for anyone will be paid for. What programs will be reduced or frozen to pay for the extensions of the cuts? That's something liberal democrats have been complaining about for years. Well now is the time to put up or shut up. Tax cuts always raise revenue but unfortunately from 2000 to today political leaders of both sides have shown that for every extra dollar they get, they are willing to spend a dollar and change in return. Until we get leaders willing to spend less than that extra dollar earned nothing will change.

That's not confined to liberal democrats either. Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it. Right now nobody gets my vote. One side wants to raise taxes on the very people that create jobs and the other wants to cut the size of government but has no concrete plan on how to go about it. I'm still waiting for the person that has a complete plan to come forwared. Congressman Ryan out of Wisconsin probably comes the closest but his plan is just an outline as well.

At this point as long as the GOP picks up enough seats to throw Congress into gridlock I'll be happy.
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FlyPNS1
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
I'm still waiting for the person that has a complete plan to come forwared.

You may be waiting a long time. No one wants to come forward with a plan, because they know if the plan is implemented it will mean major layoffs and massive cuts for millions of Americans. What politician wants to come up with a plan that will slash benefits (and therefore raise people's cost of living) PLUS cause millions to lose their jobs? Whoever implements such a plan will quickly find themselves not getting re-elected.

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it.

That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.
 
NIKV69
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:39 pm

This is going to be a huge development as the Dems fight amongst themselves on that upper tier tax cut. The stakes are high. If they let them expire and jobs don't improve Obama is toast. In fact you would think the Dems would make a decision on that now because if they say they aren't letting it expire it only helps them in the November election.
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dxing
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
In fact you would think the Dems would make a decision on that now because if they say they aren't letting it expire it only helps them in the November election.

They've blocked any action since they were implemented, obfuscated in Congress since they took over in 2006, and now at the last minute want to blame the GOP for not going along with their plan when 32 of their own members don't agree with it. Go figure.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
You may be waiting a long time.

True, but not for the reasons you cite.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services

Feel free to cite your sources. They don't have a plan because there is no real leader of that movement.
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Aesma
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:28 pm

Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me. In fact, it's not even about what they think, but all about what they have to say to not lose the election, no ideology involved at all.
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DfwRevolution
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:49 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
That's not confined to liberal democrats either. Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it.

Well let's face it. The elephant in the room is the tens of trillions in future welfare obligations that we have no means of funding. We can pay-down the current debt and afford most of today's government functions if we can avert that tidal wave. But if you say anything concrete about touching those, then you get bleeding heart liberals rushing out of the wood work bemoaning how we need "anti-poverty programs" that extend beyond the median income in this country.


Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me. In fact, it's not even about what they think, but all about what they have to say to not lose the election, no ideology involved at all.

On the contrary, most of them are highly liberal wolves in sheep's clothing who vote with the party 99% in close votes and vote "moderately" when the bill is going to pass anyway. No one exemplifies this better than Chet Edwards (D) in TX-17.

[Edited 2010-09-16 14:51:03]
 
Mir
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:00 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 3):
They don't have a plan because there is no real leader of that movement.

And I wouldn't look for them to change that any time soon. A leader would mean that they're an established movement, and with that comes accountability. It's a lot easier just to shout from the sidelines, because you can always use the "well, we're not in power, so we can't do anything" excuse.

-Mir
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Aesma
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:05 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
On the contrary, most of them are highly liberal wolves in sheep's clothing who vote with the party 99% in close votes and vote "moderately" when the bill is going to pass anyway. No one exemplifies this better than Chet Edwards (D) in TX-17.

So you agree with half of what I said, there is no ideology involved in their "moderate" plea  

[Edited 2010-09-16 15:07:03]
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
DfwRevolution
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
So you agree with half of what I said, there is no ideology involved in their "moderate" plea  

I do, it's just virtually none of them are center-right. Those two words should never be put in the same sentence with someone who twice voted to make Nancy Pelosi Speaker.
 
GST
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:41 pm

From the thread title I thought this would be about UK politics. Oddly enough the same caption could be used to describe the current Liberal Democrat party situation here.
 
dxing
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
A leader would mean that they're an established movement, and with that comes accountability. It's a lot easier just to shout from the sidelines, because you can always use the "well, we're not in power, so we can't do anything" excuse.

That excuse has been used by both the GOP and the democratic party in recent years so that is nothing new. It really was true until a few months ago but not now.
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Aaron747
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US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me.

What's with all the labeling? They either support idiotic policy or they don't - in this case, thankfully they don't. Either way, this is just another reason Dems will fail to garner any votes from those of us who are not loyal to any party.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
elmothehobo
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:39 pm

Funny, I see this crisis happening on the other side of the aisle, where Tea Party candidates are taking out Republicans to the left of them.

The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.
 
EA772LR
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:08 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 12):
The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.

I disagree. I think what we're seeing is a much needed house cleaning in the GOP. The Republicans who've lost have lost because they've campaigned as Conservatives, but their voting record is anything but Conservative. It's exciting to see 'shoe-in' GOP members who voted for bogus non-Conservative garbage get the boot by a Tea Party backed member. And the harder the Left and the LameStream Media tries to marginalize the Tea Party, and make them seem like extremists, the more it backfires. It's about time Americans wake up to the reckless behavior the Democrats and the Republicans have displayed. The problem is, there's a whole lot of people with their hand out, who are content with a massive government as long as they can keep that hand out. Fortunately, many of those folks don't usually vote.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Centre
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Libs.

Rush? is that you?
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:39 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
concrete plans of how they will do it

Ron Paul? The man kept on citing how to cut government. He isnt a Tea Party member but the man constantly talked about it 2 years ago. Maybe you just forgot.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.

MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:49 am

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

From what I have seen so far I can add White T, Trailer T, and lots of those who have no idea where D.C is, and in most cases who never left their home state.
What do you expect from people with such an intellect? That's the base for Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and her Wanabies!
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:54 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

Most red states benefit from higher federal subsidies per capita than most of their blue state counterparts. There are exceptions of course, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia and Virgina for example (which have traditionally been "red"), and Alaska which is blessed with natural resource wealth. On the other hand there are blue states (and territories) which get substantial amounts of federal funds, including Puerto Rico, Maine, Hawaii, Guam.

Those highways, agricultural subsidies and military bases don't pay for themselves, it's states like California, Texas, New York, Illinois, etc that pay for them.

Simply put, there is a next outflow of capital from wealthier blue states and a net inflow of federal funds to red states.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:09 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 16):
From what I have seen so far I can add White T, Trailer T, and lots of those who have no idea where D.C is, and in most cases who never left their home state.

Once again...no evidence. Psh this is out of controll people.

Didnt we learn that sterotyping is "bad". Might as well say that all Mexicans are illegal. I guess I am illegal.

Proof please on all of your Tea Party bashing.
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dxing
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:35 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Ron Paul?

Nope, didn't forget. He swings the pendulum to far to the other direction. Federal government needs to be smaller and more efficient, stick to it's Constitutional obligations, not almost disappear as he suggests.
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seb146
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:42 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 13):
The Republicans who've lost have lost because they've campaigned as Conservatives, but their voting record is anything but Conservative.

That's because they are center-right and, at the same time, being accused of being socialist, communist, liberal Democrats by the likes of Palin, Rush, Beck, et al.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 12):
The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.

Let me go back to the episode where Olympia Snowe (R-ME) voted to move health care debate from committee to the floor. The committee did not need her vote to move debate to the full Senate. Yet, when she voted "yes" the entire extreme right (Palin, Rush, Beck, et al.) were up in arms about her voting "liberal" and how dare a "liberal" be in the right-wing and so on and so forth. That is the biggest example I know of right off of the extremist right-wing ignoring moderate republicans. It happens all the time with primaries, as well.

Funny thing is, when so-called "liberals" (the ones labeled as extremists and "socialists") want to get legislation passed, they actually talk with thier own party members instead of making them out-casts and smearing them.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.

MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

Have you seen any of the tea rallies? I can simply look at those rallies and see how many are either on Social Security and/or food stamps and/or Medicare and/or are veterans who recieve care and benefits through the VA. All "socialist" organizations. Care to explain how it will look when the tea people who love Americans so much cut these "socialist benefits" and those that are so near and dear to the cause end up on the streets? How is that going to look for the blessed "tea party?"
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dxing
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
on Social Security

They had taxes confiscated from them over their working lives so all they are doing is getting their money back, less any interest for the time it was taken from them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
and/or food stamps

Proof?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
Medicare

Again, they had taxes taken from them for most of their working ives so they are only getting back what they had taken from them, again less any interest.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
are veterans who recieve care and benefits through the VA

The Constitution mandates that the federal government provide for the defense of the States. Since these people served their country, sometimes against their will (drafted) they deserve our respect and care. I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".
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elmothehobo
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:59 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
The Constitution mandates that the federal government provide for the defense of the States. Since these people served their country, sometimes against their will (drafted) they deserve our respect and care. I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".

The idea of state care for veterans is hardly free market, laissez faire, capitalist, etc... It is a very "socialist" concept.
 
slider
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Congressman Ryan out of Wisconsin probably comes the closest but his plan is just an outline as well.

Ryan's Roadmap is actually VERY detailed.

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/
 
Mir
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:27 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):

They had taxes confiscated from them over their working lives so all they are doing is getting their money back

In other words, "cut spending, but not at my expense."

There are a lot of programs out there that could be trimmed or cut entirely, but doing so is going to require sacrifice on the part of everyone. If the Tea Party isn't willing to give up some stuff themselves, they're not going to get anywhere.

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".

It's transfer of wealth. Why should someone who opposed the war in Iraq from the start have to give up some of their hard-earned money to pay for its costs (one of which is the medical care of those who fought in it and were injured) if they think that said money could be put to better use? That is indeed socialism.

Why not let the VA be private, and funded by voluntary contributions? Surely there's enough support for veterans in the country that they'd get whatever it was they needed without the government having to take out of everyone's pocketbook.

[/devil's advocate]

I don't have a problem with the VA myself, but yes, it is rather socialist. Which just goes to show that not everything that is socialist is a bad idea.

-Mir
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QXatFAT
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:41 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
He swings the pendulum to far to the other direction

I agree but that is a starting point correct? You have the current status of HUGE government and then Ron Paul of getting rid of a lot. Now the Ron Paul method is one that you can start to build off of. I always found it hard to get my finances in check when you try to trim from being over done rather then saying what is the miniumum I need? Now what can I justify to add to that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
I can simply look at those rallies and see how many are either on Social Security and/or food stamps and/or Medicare and/or are veterans who recieve care and benefits through the VA

You must be the brightest person alive then because looking at a crowed on TV and you can choose which ones are on foodstams? That really is impressive. Sounds like you just have your mind made up of the Tea Party and you are "sticking to it" no matter what. Your opinion is no different than those you oppose. Your mind is already set and there is no convincing you other wise no matter the facts.
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DocLightning
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:59 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):

They had taxes confiscated

Huh? Since when were taxes confiscatory? Taxes are and always have been part of the United States. It's in the Constitution, and not even in an amendment. It's not confiscation. It's a duty of citizenship.
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EA772LR
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):

That's because they are center-right and, at the same time, being accused of being socialist, communist, liberal Democrats by the likes of Palin, Rush, Beck, et al.

Thank you for making my point. Like I said, the reason these GOP members are losing to TEA Party backed members is because the GOP members are running as Conservatives when their voting records aren't Conservative. This isn't an 'extreme right takeover' of the GOP, rather a needed house cleaning and a return to actual Conservatives. The GOP is to blame for their own downfall. The more left they went, the more convoluted their message got, the more they sounded like Liberals. I don't care if a politician is Republican or Democrat, I just want a real Conservative.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Huh? Since when were taxes confiscatory? Taxes are and always have been part of the United States. It's in the Constitution, and not even in an amendment. It's not confiscation. It's a duty of citizenship.

Taxes were originally to be levied only during times of war. Obviously that changed.

One could argue, however, that the 16th Amendment did open the door to the permanent income tax that we now have.

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
Nope, didn't forget. He swings the pendulum to far to the other direction. Federal government needs to be smaller and more efficient, stick to it's Constitutional obligations, not almost disappear as he suggests.
Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Ron Paul? The man kept on citing how to cut government. He isnt a Tea Party member but the man constantly talked about it 2 years ago. Maybe you just forgot.

Ron Paul has been at it for a lot longer than 2 years, more like decades. His message has been relatively consistent, and though I strongly disagree with many of his views, his message has not wavered over the years. The Tea Party, on the other hand, is a hodge podge of politicians jumping on the bandwagon of small government with little understanding of what it really means.

Ron Paul defends unpopular positions in the face of considerable opposition from factions within his own party (opposition to the PATRIOT Act, the War in Iraq, and all of the other Big Brother activities the Republican party pushed post-9/11).

I have a hard time anyone in the Tea Party is going to cite Milton Friedman, Frederick von Hayek or anyone else in the rest of the Chicago or Austrian schools of economics. They are populist ideologues.
 
Ken777
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:57 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Tax cuts always raise revenue

Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt? Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got screwed - yet again.

To me, tax cuts are something you really like, but can get too much of. Sort of like ice cream.

I think we might be beyond the saturation point with cuts.

Quoting dxing (Reply 3):
when 32 of their own members don't agree with it.

Or are not being public about their understanding of the financial problems the government faces. Maybe they will vote to cut their staff and pay costs.   reduced.

Or they can join the Republicans in identifying the $4 Trillion in costs that have to be made to PAY for the tax cuts.

I don't think anyone wants the public to know what cuts will be made to pay for a $3 or $4 Trillion cut.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
The elephant in the room is the tens of trillions in future welfare obligations that we have no means of funding.

Like the $3 Trillion cost if the top tier does not get new cuts. $4 Trillion if it DOES get a cut.

The elephant is the room is making a public informed on what has to be cut to pay for the pay cuts.

And the $700 Billion going to the richest 2%. Now THAT is a stimulus program.

While the Conservatives managed to avoid finding a way to actually pay for their tax cut that ends now. Before it passes we need to pull the barriers down and talk about specific cuts. The KC-X program is a good start - less the cost of re-engining some KC-135s.

The big "welfare obligations" I feel coming from you would be Social Security, Medicare and VA Benefits.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
No one exemplifies this better than Chet Edwards (D) in TX-17.

Considering that Texas recently hit the national news with a story about 17% of Texans living in poverty it looks like the conservatives there have done as bad a job as the Bush/Cheney.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moder

Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:28 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt? Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got screwed - yet again.

Because the middle class did not practice wealth-building. They didn't get screwed, they squandered an opportunity. Instead of using the extra disposable income toward long-term investing, the savings rate was zero to slightly negative for most of the last decade. Should we jack up middle class taxes to teach'em a lesson?  Yeah sure
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Like the $3 Trillion cost if the top tier does not get new cuts. $4 Trillion if it DOES get a cut.

An order of magnitude less than our unfunded welfare obligations. Apparently neither you nor the talking heads you follow have managed any finances in your life as you cannot account a decrease in revenue as a "cost."

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Considering that Texas recently hit the national news with a story about 17% of Texans living in poverty it looks like the conservatives there have done as bad a job as the Bush/Cheney.

I'm not sure what that has to do with politicians who campaign as "moderate Democrats" and then vote with the far left block of the party in every consequential vote. The Texas economy has outpaced the national economy through the entire recession, with unemployment peaking around 8.5%.

Maybe a high poverty rate has to do with a leaky border next to a country with a 50% poverty rate...

Troll harder, Ken.

[Edited 2010-09-20 16:32:51]
 
474218
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:01 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt?

Because Bush spent money like a Democrat.

Bush was as far from being a conservative as Obama is from being a moderate.
 
seb146
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:38 am

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 25):
Sounds like you just have your mind made up of the Tea Party and you are "sticking to it" no matter what. Your opinion is no different than those you oppose. Your mind is already set and there is no convincing you other wise no matter the facts.

I have heard what the tea leadership says. They want something for nothing. They want all this "national security" (read: Patriot Act and very heavy military) but don't want their taxes to pay for it. They want the government to run their pensions and Social Security but they don't want the government to invest it in any way. They don't want the government to get involved in business, but they want government oversight when big business screws them out of billions of dollars in pensions.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt? Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got screwed - yet again.

They even over look this little gem. They will scream and gnash their teeth that tax cuts work all the while looking at the tax cuts that drove their precious right-wing government out of power.
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DocLightning
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:14 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 28):

Taxes were originally to be levied only during times of war. Obviously that changed.

Show me that line in the Constitution.
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BMI727
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Which just goes to show that not everything that is socialist is a bad idea.

Actually pretty much everything that is socialist is bad. The VA is a legitimate benefit extended to those who serve in the military.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Why not let the VA be private, and funded by voluntary contributions?

It might not be a bad idea to close the VA hospitals and bid out VA medical care.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Since when were taxes confiscatory?

There is taxes, and then there is Social Security which amounts to an institutionalized pyramid scheme.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
The KC-X program is a good start - less the cost of re-engining some KC-135s.

Defense should be the first money in, last money out.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 31):
Bush was as far from being a conservative as Obama is from being a moderate

Here's how the Iraq war would have gone if Bush were truly conservative.
1. Get soldiers, tanks, and planes and take over Iraq.
2. Catch and kill the old dictator.
3. Find a new dictator who will do what we want when we want him to do it and give him some guns.
4. Take (not buy, take) the oil as we see fit.

Might not have been a bad way to go actually. (for Americans anyway)
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dxing
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:04 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
In other words, "cut spending, but not at my expense."

No, in other words, give me back what you took from me.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
It's transfer of wealth. Why should someone who opposed the war in Iraq from the start have to give up some of their hard-earned money to pay for its costs (one of which is the medical care of those who fought in it and were injured) if they think that said money could be put to better use? That is indeed socialism.

No it is not a transfer of wealth. Part of the bargain service members get when they were either drafted and wounded in combat or volunteered and served their 20 was medical care. It's either payment for injuries recieved on the job or a retirement benefit for service rendered. It most certainly is not socialism.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Huh? Since when were taxes confiscatory? Taxes are and always have been part of the United States. It's in the Constitution, and not even in an amendment. It's not confiscation. It's a duty of citizenship.

Taxes are always confiscatory unless it is a sales tax which you agree to when you purchase something.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt?


Because they out spent the increased revenues. Same as the democratic Congress did in the in 80's and this democratic Congress has done since 2006 and the GOP Congress did from 2001-2006.

[quote=Ken777,reply=29]Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got screwed - yet again.?


The middle class did not see wealth increases because the large majority of them spent themselves into large debt by running up credit cards and cashing in on the equity in their homes. Wealthy people invest their money.

[quote=Ken777,reply=29]Or are not being public about their understanding of the financial problems the government faces. ?

They understand that the government represents the people, not the other way around.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 31):
Because Bush spent money like a Democrat.

Bush was as far from being a conservative as Obama is from being a moderate.

Drove the nail home with one swing!!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Show me that line in the Constitution.

In the original document under limits of Congress you will find:

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

The Courts upheld, until the Constitution was amended that tax on income by the Federal government was Unconstitutional. The 16th amendment rectified this much to everyones regret..

Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
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Mir
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:20 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
No, in other words, give me back what you took from me.

We've got a growing deficit. In other words, we're spending more than we're taking in. If we ever want to reverse that trend (and I think we do), we're going to have to start taking in more than we spend. Which means that someone is going to be paying in more to the system than they're getting out of it. I'd rather that be many someones paying in a little bit more than a few someones paying a lot more.

If the Tea Party isn't willing to take part in the sacrifice, they have absolutely zero credibility.

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Part of the bargain service members get when they were either drafted and wounded in combat or volunteered and served their 20 was medical care. It's either payment for injuries recieved on the job or a retirement benefit for service rendered. It most certainly is not socialism.

There's no right that service members have to injury compensation or a retirement package. The government made a decision to spend people's hard-earned money on those things. At a time when many private companies don't offer retirement packages anymore, why should my money be going toward an inefficient bureaucracy like the VA when I could be spending it on stimulating the economy?

[/devil's advocate]

Call it what you will, but the VA is ultimately a welfare system, with veterans drinking from the government teat. Again, I have absolutely no problem with it, because as you said the veterans have earned it, but that doesn't change what it is.

We're probably going to end up agreeing to disagree on this one, which is fine, because it's really secondary to my point - I wish people wouldn't selectively throw the socialism tag around, because it's not productive.

-Mir
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QXatFAT
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:38 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):

Miss-understanding again of the Tea Party.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
They want something for nothing

That is actually the "left" side of this country. They feel intitled to things. "Where is mine?" attitude. I think you are switching things around here.
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elmothehobo
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Show me that line in the Constitution.

It doesn't say so explicitly in the Constitution, it was the defacto way of doing things in the early years of this country. Congress is granted the right to levy taxes as it sees fit. It only did so during times of war.

Section 8
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"
 
Yellowstone
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:41 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
In the original document under limits of Congress you will find:

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

The Courts upheld, until the Constitution was amended that tax on income by the Federal government was Unconstitutional. The 16th amendment rectified this much to everyones regret..

A common misconception. Note this important phrase (emphasis mine) - "no capitation, or other direct tax" - what exactly is a direct tax? In US constitutional law, a direct tax is a tax on a thing one owns, such as property tax or a "per person" tax. An indirect tax is a tax on an action one performs, such as a sale or (crucially for this post) the receipt of a wage. Taxes on wage income have never been ruled unconstitutional. What was found unconstitutional in 1895 were (non-apportioned) taxes on income from property - the Supreme Court found that there was no fundamental difference between taxing income from a property and taxing the property itself, thus making taxes on income from property direct taxes. The Sixteenth Amendment overruled this - in fact, the important bit of that amendment is just the short phrase "incomes, from whatever source derived."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen..._to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Starbuk7
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
If we ever want to reverse that trend (and I think we do), we're going to have to start taking in more than we spend. Which means that someone is going to be paying in more to the system than they're getting out of it. I'd rather that be many someones paying in a little bit more than a few someones paying a lot more.


NO, it means the the government needs to stop spending so much on welfare programs and only be spending on what they are supposed to be spending on, but if YOU are willing to pay more taxes then go ahead. Some of are tired of losing more and more of our hard earned income to people who refuse to even try to get a job and do some work.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
There's no right that service members have to injury compensation or a retirement package.


Go put your life on the line every day for 20+ years to "Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States" and then come talk to me about compensation. I have seen many of my friends get injured or die in "peace time operations" yet alone the war and then we have to come home and deal with this kind of attitude, get real. We earned what little we get in pensions and health care.
 
seb146
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:37 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 37):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
They want something for nothing

That is actually the "left" side of this country. They feel intitled to things. "Where is mine?" attitude. I think you are switching things around here.

When has anyone on the "left" ever said that? I am simply pointing out the hypocracy of the tea people; they want national security, Medicare, VA benefits but don't want taxes. BTW, the United States pay the lowest income taxes in the industrialized world.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
baroque
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
When has anyone on the "left" ever said that? I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the tea people; they want national security, Medicare, VA benefits but don't want taxes. BTW, the United States pay the lowest income taxes in the industrialized world.

I suppose with evolution not being all that well accepted in parts of the US, this guy's approach will not resonate everywhere. But I draw it to attention.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/3016959.htm

Altruism and Evolution - David Sloan Wilson

David Sloan Wilson Photo - Wikimedia Commons)

David Sloan Wilson
full image

Evolutionist David Sloan Wilson argues that evolution can - and should inform public policy, in areas as diverse and financial systems and restoring outdoor play for children. He's founded the world's first evolutionary think tank to promote the idea.


No transcript but there is audio of the interview if you wish to listen to Wilson. Interesting in relation as to the role of cooperation and in particular the role of government.
 
dxing
Topic Author
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
We've got a growing deficit. In other words, we're spending more than we're taking in. If we ever want to reverse that trend (and I think we do), we're going to have to start taking in more than we spend. Which means that someone is going to be paying in more to the system than they're getting out of it. I'd rather that be many someones paying in a little bit more than a few someones paying a lot more.

That is incorrect. What is needed is for spending to remain below income same as it is for you and me. Just because you have a printing press does not give you the right to print money as you see fit. Nor does elected office give you the right to borrow the country in to oblivion. You want sacrafice, then lets start with those that got us into this mess. Slash elected officials salaries and benefits. Make it as close to being in the military as possible with barracks and mess halls. Perhaps then we would cut down on the "career" politicians which tend to be the real problem.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
There's no right that service members have to injury compensation or a retirement package.

????

http://www.military.com/benefits/vet...care/veterans-health-care-overview

The Department of Veteran's Affairs is required by law to provide eligible veterans hospital care and outpatient care services that are defined as "needed." VA defines "needed" as care or service that will promote, preserve, and restore health. This includes treatment, procedures, supplies, or services. This decision of need will be based on the judgment of your health care provider and in accordance with generally accepted standards of clinical practice.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
. At a time when many private companies don't offer retirement packages anymore, why should my money be going toward an inefficient bureaucracy like the VA when I could be spending it on stimulating the economy?

Because they earned it either through years of service or by giving a much larger part of themselves by being wounded than the ordinary citizen. The VA may be inefficient and that can be addressed but it represents the samething that workers comp in private industry does to the injured worker or that medicare does for the ordinary citizens. Instead of paying for it with taxes, they paid for it with service to the country.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Call it what you will, but the VA is ultimately a welfare system, with veterans drinking from the government teat

Couldn't disagree more. Welfare is paid out to those that are down and out. Veterans are not down and out by and large. They served and either were wounded or served the required number of years and are recieving the benefits they were were promised.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Again, I have absolutely no problem with it, because as you said the veterans have earned it, but that doesn't change what it is.

It completely changes how you have described it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
We're probably going to end up agreeing to disagree on this one

As long as you continue to describe it as any sort of welfare we will.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 39):
Taxes on wage income have never been ruled unconstitutional.

Pollock v. Farmers Loan and Trust Co found that the income tax on interest, dividends, and rents violated the Constitution. Threfore if I had substantial investments and derived my income from that it would have been Unconstitutional to charge me an income tax. The ruling is what led to the the 16th amendment. It is why the wealthy still campaign hardest against a capital gains tax. If they can sell stock at a profit and not be charged for that profit so much the better for them.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 39):
in fact, the important bit of that amendment is just the short phrase "incomes, from whatever source derived."

Correct, That is what Constitutionally allows an income tax as well as a myriad of others.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
they want national security, Medicare, VA benefits but don't want taxes.

National security is mandated by the Constitution. VA benefits are part of what you get for 20+ plus years of service or for being wounded while defending your country. Medicare is what LBJ wanted.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
BTW, the United States pay the lowest income taxes in the industrialized world.

As it should be. Government does not produce anything.
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slider
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt? Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got screwed - yet again.

This was already answered quite aptly insofar as the obvious discussion about overspending by citizens, credit card debt, overextension on home equity, the housing bubble, et al. However, I’ll also add to it because Ken’s understanding of economics is either so clouded by blind partisanship or he’s just flat out deliberately ignoring the point.

National debt spiked and continues to spike because of—and follow this carefully—unprecedented and unchecked government spending.

Full stop.

The Obama administration has added more debt than every president COMBINED from Washington up through Reagan. It is unsustainable, untenable, and cannot continue. While I strongly believe we’re all grossly overtaxed, tax policy is but one component of fixing the underlying system and problems that have gotten us here. So when the shrill voices from the left or right grandstand about tax policy, few are willing to make the hard choices (again, I’ll cite Paul Ryan as the ONLY guy who’s laid forth a plan in detail) to actually save the republic, shrink government, reduce spending, cut back government power and reach.

Until or unless we do that, this hackneyed bullshit about “tax cuts for the rich” will continue to fall on deaf ears. Obama got depantsed last night on CNBC by one of his own voters who’s ‘exhausted trying to defend him’….people are waking up.
 
Ken777
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Why not let the VA be private, and funded by voluntary contributions?

Contributions?

They have been made.

It's called "serving"

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 28):
They are populist ideologues.

Huey Long was a populist.  

Can you see the fits he's cause the COnservatives & TP folks?

They might end up shooting him.

Oooops! They did shoot him.  Wow!
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
Because the middle class did not practice wealth-building.

With the rapid increases in health insurance costs the middle class didn't have that much free money. But the upper income classes sure did.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
Should we jack up middle class taxes to teach'em a lesson?

If we extend the top tier tax cut we will eventually have more increases for the middle class - the $700 Billion hand out to the rich ensures that.

Might happen faster than you think. Obama also brought in tax breaks that, IIRC, expire at the end of the year. Maybe we' re facing a situation where the Obama Tax cuts are dead because of the costs of the top 2%.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
It might not be a bad idea to close the VA hospitals and bid out VA medical care.

Now that scares the hell out of me.

A lot of VA hospitals are in small towns, centrally located to capture a large group of Vets. They actually do a pretty good job - equal to care in private hospitals, but far less expensive.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Defense should be the first money in, last money out.

Defense indirectly includes the VA IMHO.

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Taxes are always confiscatory unless it is a sales tax which you agree to when you purchase something.

Sorry, but there are a lot of taxes that you knowingly pay. Taxes on car and commercial air travel is a simple example.

Actually, you can rid yourself of the US taxes you hate so much. Find a country with zero income taxes. How complicated is that.

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Because they out spent the increased revenues

Or because they failed to be honest. Why do suppose that the Bush Tax Cuts end this year? Any longer and they would have had to find spending off-sets to pay for it. LMAO!

Conservatives sure talk a good line, but they don't perform. And we should believe that the Tea Party is any better?

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Wealthy people invest their money.

Because they have the spare money that they can invest.

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
The 16th amendment rectified this much to everyones regret..
Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
There's no right that service members have to injury compensation or a retirement package.

Retirement pay IS a right for service members who have met the requirements. Should not be too complicated to understand that.

As for injury compensation, you're showing your commitment to the country with that one. You can't be "for Defense" if you're against those who actually serve.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
why should my money be going toward an inefficient bureaucracy like the VA when I could be spending it on stimulating the economy?

The VA does stimulate the economy. Toss the employees out on their bums and unemployment goes up. More vets go into crisis.

Close the VA hospitals? That increases costs, or ensures that vets die faster to save you money. Typical Republican idea.

To get a good idea of the importance of the VA simply ask Senator Tom Coburn. He's well known in the Senate as the cost cutter. Called "Doctor No" on both sides of the aisle.

He's also form Muskogee, OK, where the VA has a Regional Office and a Regional Hospital.

So ask Doctor No if the VA should be shut down.

And since he's also a Doctor (a real MD) ask him about VA Hospitals and if they should be continued.

Think the ultra conservative Doctor No just might surprise you.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
A lot of VA hospitals are in small towns, centrally located to capture a large group of Vets. They actually do a pretty good job - equal to care in private hospitals, but far less expensive.

In smaller towns I could see that, but in large cities where there are plenty of medical facilities VA care could be done by other doctors and hospitals.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
Defense indirectly includes the VA IMHO.

I agree. Veterans earned that and VA should be part of the defense budget.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Ken777
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
In smaller towns I could see that, but in large cities where there are plenty of medical facilities VA care could be done by other doctors and hospitals.

There is a cost difference between VA and private care. That is one of the good factors of VA medicine. Another is the fact that the doctor can order a test, or a visit to a specialist, without calling 1-800-MOMMY-MAY-I for authorization.

The other issue with not having large town hospitals is that the Vets are authorized to go to any hospital if there is an emergency. Just let the VA know and they pick up the tab of the more expensive treatment. For normal care the VA Clinics are outstanding.
.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:31 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):

I'm not a healthcare expert, but it might be worth looking at the costs and whether the costs of VA could be reduced. I have to admit that this is the first time I've heard the VA described as outstanding.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Yellowstone
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RE: US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates

Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:44 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
Correct, That is what Constitutionally allows an income tax as well as a myriad of others.

Not quite sure you got the main thrust of my argument - income taxes on wages are Constitutional even without the 16th Amendment. The only taxes you'd lose if you got rid of the 16th Amendment are income taxes on dividends, rents, etc.
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