777236ER
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Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:23 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11380628

This allegation, if true, would be the latest in a long line of destructive behaviour by the religious state. It has actively covered up the rape of children across the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases), it has assisted the spread of HIV/AIDS with its opposition to condoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_AIDS), it compares atheists to Nazis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515).

At which point do the actions of the Vatican become akin to terrorism? When do we consider this nation as a terrorist state, whose aim is to undemocratically and illegally alter our way of life?
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JakeOrion
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:28 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
When do we consider this nation as a terrorist state, whose aim is to undemocratically and illegally alter our way of life?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:54 pm

"Forgive me Father,....for you have sinned"      ...is nothing sacred anymore?...silly me...of course...the Cordoba Group.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

A bank-to-bank transfer (of which a billion happen every day) where the government disclosure requirements were not met, equals organized crime?

You must really hate catholics. What would that be - catholicphobia?
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Well one could easily say they've been causing wars, raping humanity, money laundering, and brain washing people since the year 0 A.D.                  


*This coming from a non-practicing catholic, mind you
 
Sabena332
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:16 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

The Vatican is organized crime! And so are all the other major religious organizations (aka sects for morons who have no life beside this crap)!

Patrick
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LTU932
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:50 pm

Now that I think of it, this makes me think of Godfather III. In that film, they covered the real life scandal of the Vatican Bank in the late 70's albeit with a completely different, fictional story (not just with Michael Corleone trying to become fully legit).

Anyway, let's think about the Vatican overall (and before anyone asks, I was born a Catholic, was baptised but stopped practicing because of the hypocrisy that is the Catholic Church, called himself an Atheist for a while but now considers himself someone who thinks that something is up there pulling our strings, without believing in an organised religion):

1. They actively covered up the child sex abuse scandals, and Mr Joseph Alois Ratzinger (aka Benedict XVI) was himself actively involved in those coverups, and not just when he was the boss at the archdiocese of München und Freising. Plus they still think that women priests are a sacrilege, even though there's nothing in the Bible saying that women cannot become priests/bishops/cardinals/popes. This is just misogynism.
2. Atheists are compared with nazis, which is ironic considering that Mr Ratzinger himself was involved with the nazis. It was an involvement that he had to undertake as an adolescent by force, but considering the fact that he pardoned William Richardson, who denied the holocaust openly during an interview IN GERMANY (where denying the holocaust is considered a crime punishable with a prison sentence), along with him reintroducing the Good Friday prayer that calls for Jews to get their veils lifted so they can be delivered from the darkness, I still maintain that, openly or not, Ratzinger somehow sympathised with the ideology of the NSDAP.
3. Their opposition to contraceptives does indeed help spread AIDS. Particularly in poor regions, people tend to be highly attached to religion (regardless of religion, whether it's Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Bhuddism, etc.) and in those areas, whatever the church tells them is the law. The church knows that, and uses it's position of power to continue preaching archaic ideologies that just don't fit into the 21st Century. I mean, could it be that the Catholic Church considers AIDS a divine punishment against adulterers, homosexuals, drug addicts and people who have extramarital sex in general, and that this is the reason why they ban condoms? What about people who get infected by accidents (e.g. via tainted blood transfusions, unsterilised medical needles, etc.), are they also punished by God for that?
4. Let's not forget that the Catholic Church, which claims to spread the word of God, has done countless criminal acts during its existence, e.g. prosecuting people through the Holy Inquisition and executing them for things like heresy and witchcraft, the crusades (where people killed in the name of Jesus Christ), corruption, etc.

While people all around are spreading fear about islamic terrorists, people conveniently overlook the crimes commited by the Vatican and by people in the Catholic Church. People who killed, raped and pillaged in the name of Jesus Christ, and who continue to preach ideologies that for the 21st Century are considered archaic and misogynist, with no willingness to adapt to the conditions of modern day society.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
because of the hypocrisy that is the Catholic Church

I think "catholic church" can easily be replaced with "any of the major organized religions"
 
soon7x7
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:35 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
You must really hate catholics. What would that be - catholicphobia?


Well we are incredibly evil people...no one is closer to the devil than Catholics...priests can't keep their hands off little boys...nuns usually get none!...woman wear funky hats to Sunday mass. We are the only religion that have ever fought to preserve our beliefs.
I just have a hard time remembering the last time we lobbed missiles at born a gain Christians for not following Catholicism. In fact, I've been trying to wrap my arms around the last time a priest hijacked an airliner after slashing the crews necks with box cutters and flew the jet into a building...just can't put my finger on it.
Ah, the camps...yes we had camps...we sent the little catholic children off to day camps...they were seamlessly brainwashed with evil thoughts of little naked girls swimming in the pond. We did teach them how to wack someone knuckles with rubber tipped pointers. And the gum in the hair thing...that's a killer!...Damn Catholics...we're all going to hell!
...give me a break!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:48 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7):
I think "catholic church" can easily be replaced with "any of the major organized religions"

Yes. This is 100% true. Why always talk about the catholics (more the Vaticanesque official catholic churrch in fact)? Why not the Mormons, Jehovas, Jews, Islam, Adventists, Scientology, Moonies, Masons and others... they are all the same... really. There is not one of these organized groups that is better than the other. Power, money and greed among their leaders. Look inside and you will see.

So much lies and hypocrisies. If "God" exists he/she certainly does not need religions though there is not any proof that he/she exists. So far we have no proof. It's all based on personal belief, myths and story telling, no more no less.
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777236ER
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:25 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Yes. This is 100% true. Why always talk about the catholics (more the Vaticanesque official catholic churrch in fact)? Why not the Mormons, Jehovas, Jews, Islam, Adventists, Scientology, Moonies, Masons and others... they are all the same... really. There is not one of these organized groups that is better than the other. Power, money and greed among their leaders. Look inside and you will see.

I agree, but in this case the problem is with the Catholic church.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 8):
...give me a break!

The Catholic church can be arguably called a terrorist organisation, and the Catican arguably a terrorist nation, and your response is this?
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avent
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:46 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):

At which point do the actions of the Vatican become akin to terrorism? When do we consider this nation as a terrorist state, whose aim is to undemocratically and illegally alter our way of life?

Since the purpose of terrorism is to instill fear and to use violence for political ends, the modern church cannot reasonably be considered terroristic. The catholic church does try and do good works for the most part, and while I strongly disagree with some of its thrusts, I have no difficulty accepting the premise they are more misguided than malicious when they do stuff I think is wrong. In the past it was an organization that relied on terror e.g. during the inquisutions, but it is way over the top in my opinion (as a fairly ardent atheist) to accuse them of being terrorists these days.

[Edited 2010-09-22 10:47:50]

[Edited 2010-09-22 10:48:51]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:57 pm



Really, there's like 3 threads a week on the Catholic Church. Do you really have anything new to say that hasn't been said last week?
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ALTF4
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:07 pm

So, years ago this Catholic Church you speak of killed people who did not convert.

Years ago, there was a country by the name of England, who sent off many of their convicts to a far away place, now known as Australia, in horrible conditions, knowing many would die on the boat.



Today, people still hold the Catholic Church accountable for their actions. Why don't you think England is just as evil as it was years ago?

Please note I am not comparing the church to England, but rather actions done by each of them long ago, separately. The Catholic Church != England. However, actions done by the church compared to lack of actions now, and the resulting view, should, in scale, be similar to the same for England.

Today, neither entity is doing the same thing as they did before. I fail to see why the Catholic Church is berated so much for something that happened long ago but does not happen now, and it is perfectly acceptable to do.

Do I side with the Catholic Church? Am I part of the Catholic Church? No.



Ok, so now present day, different thought.

Lets see here...

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
It has actively covered up the rape of children across the world

Yes; and that is despicable. (How many times do people have to say this in threads?) Does that make them a terrorist organization? No, unless every person who ever went to jail for obstruction of justice is a terrorist.

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
it has assisted the spread of HIV/AIDS with its opposition to condoms

Interesting point. There's a whole discussion to be had here. However, the Catholic Church also opposes sex outside of marriage, and (I could be wrong here) but I do believe in many places, people are not allowed to (or strongly discouraged against) getting married when one partner is HIV-positive.

So, legally, there is nothing wrong with saying they should not use condoms. If the person is devout enough to follow the "no condom" rule, I think they would be devout enough to follow the limitations on sexual relations.

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
it compares atheists to Nazis

Nothing wrong with that. Odd, sure. Do I agree with it? No. But they have their right to make assertions.

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 5):
The Vatican is organized crime! And so are all the other major religious organizations (aka sects for morons who have no life beside this crap)!

I just might say you could get your point across better if you used a little more tact. People might listen more, too.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
ideologies that for the 21st Century are considered archaic and misogynist

Not illegal.



Ok, so, there's one illegal activity in those. Hmm. I'm not saying its no big deal... but I really don't see how this is terrorism, even terrorism at its weakest.



And let me state again, I am not a Catholic, nor do I agree with the Catholic Church on their beliefs.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:02 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
When do we consider this nation as a terrorist state, whose aim is to undemocratically and illegally alter our way of life

Would that not be more "tyrannical" or "dictatorial" rather than "terrorist" state, though? I really don't think terrorist is the proper description here.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:24 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
The Catholic church can be arguably called a terrorist organisation,

No, it cannot, by any stretch of the definition. I can't believe that you would use such a cop-out and overused term to express your displeasure with the actions of despicable men. Frankly, it's disgusting, and an insult to the millions who have died at the hands of real terror organizations over the last 20 years.

So your lame attempt to deflect genuine disbelief at such a statement:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
and your response is this?

Is just lame.
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Quokka
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RE: Vatican Involved In Organised Crime?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:16 pm

That Ratzinger should compare atheists to Nazis is ironic, given that many leading Nazis were from a good old Catholic background. But then Joseph Stalin was educated in an Orthodox seminary...

Apart from the possible involvement in protecting men who rape children, the actions and views expressed are not illegal. They may be considered by some to be misguided, but no laws are broken in expressing them. Of course if Ratzinger went to Austria, France or Germany and suggest that maybe the figures for the death camps are somewhat exaggerated, he could be arrested, were it not for his diplomatic immunity as head of state.

Terrorist? If the legal definition of terrorism is the "use or threatened use of violence for political ends" is the yardstick, how does the Vatican measure up? There are far more likely candidates for that accusation.

Whether the Vatican Inc. is corrupt and governed by men, like others, driven by pride, avarice, lust, greed and the rest of the seven deadly sins is open to debate. But terrorism is going a bit far.

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