BMIFlyer
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Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:58 pm

Well, can't really say i'm surprised - the amount of casualties he would have caused had the bomb actually "worked".

However I am worried that this won't "put off" any other copycat attempts. Sadly "AQ" and it's factions will always try again / other means.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11475783

A bit of background on the guy.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_Shahzad

[Edited 2010-10-05 08:06:12]
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NIKV69
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:03 pm

Bye Bye buddy. Enjoy your life in jail. Maybe the Taliban and AQ will come visit you.

[Edited 2010-10-05 08:29:19]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:05 pm

I forgot to add, the distressing thing about this case is that the guy is a 'U.S citizen'.

It's really sickening to think that he wanted to go out there and kill the citizens of his own country, just because he felt like it (had a thing against foreign policy?)!

Would it be accurate to label him as another Timothy McVeigh? Probably not, but I think maybe a few would....
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NIKV69
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
It's really sickening to think that he wanted to go out there and kill the citizens of his own country, just because he felt like it (had a thing against foreign policy?)!

He didn't become a citizen so he coould be part of the US. He hates the citizens of "his" country.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
mirrodie
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:52 pm

its about time. Better than death.
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STT757
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
I forgot to add, the distressing thing about this case is that the guy is a 'U.S citizen'.

The judge brought this up;

Quote:
Shahzad, 31, defended his attempt to kill Americans. During his statement before sentencing, Cedarbaum cut him off at one point to ask if he had sworn allegiance to the United States when the Pakistan-born Shahzad became a citizen last year.

"I did swear but I did not mean it," Shahzad said.

"So you took a false oath," the judge told him.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...imes_square_bomber_to_be_sent.html
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airtran737
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:44 pm

Just shoot him. Why waste my tax dollars by keeping him alive in prison? Shoot him in the head and send his family a bill for the bullet
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Mudboy
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:43 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Just shoot him. Why waste my tax dollars by keeping him alive in prison? Shoot him in the head and send his family a bill for the bullet

Yeah that is right, lets show the world how brutal we are. We should embrace all our enemies and show them we want peace, instead lowering ourselves to them. Maybe he had a hard childhood growing up, and this all he had in life. Did he have parents, that nutured him enough? Maybe the only family he ever had that loved him was AQ, but you say we should just kill him and rid the world of him??????   Just Kidding!! 

HAHAHAHA!! I just messing with you, it is a slow day, I agree, if he wanted to be a mass murderer, I say let him hang and save the money to fee d the homeless.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:56 am

He is a nobody. A nothing. Put him in a dark hole and let him rot. No publicity, no stories, nothing. Killing him would be too easy..this is better.
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Airstud
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:12 am

Also if you kill these jihadists, you're giving them what they want. They fancy themselves "martyrs" if they are killed in the course of their crusade, whether by ammunition or execution.

I feel better that we deny them their "glory."
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Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:17 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Enjoy your life in jail.



Sadly he will.
In prison he can devote his entire life to reading the quran and praying throughout the day.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Just shoot him. Why waste my tax dollars by keeping him alive in prison? Shoot him in the head and send his family a bill for the bullet
Quoting Airstud (Reply 9):
Also if you kill these jihadists, you're giving them what they want. They fancy themselves "martyrs" if they are killed in the course of their crusade, whether by ammunition or execution.




It's a lose, lose situation.  
Life in prison for these people isn't a bad thing. I guarantee you that he will convert a few fellow inmates to his religion.
If any thing, he will get a lot of respect and honor in prison as well as 3 meals a day, showers, health club, halal diet and probably a few conjugal visits.
Many prisoners convert to Islam to avoid harassment and sodomy.
Doesn't matter if you are a terrorist, murderer, rapist, pedophile, bank robber, etc. If you convert to Islam in a US prison, you are forgiven and welcomed in to their brotherhood with open arms.
I've heard this from people I've met that have served time and here is a few links.
Sadly it's not talked about too much in the media.
Don't think for a second that he isn't a problem now that he is serving a life sentence. Many inmates serving shorter sentences will be influenced by him and carry out their terror when they are released early for 'good behavior'.
I think it is sick that our country locks people up for simple marijuana possession with these kinds of animals.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1416712/posts

http://www.radicalislam.org/threat/homegrown-threat/us-prisons

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islpris.htm
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TheCommodore
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:34 am

Did you hear what he had to say, after the judge sentenced him to life improvement.

It was along the lines of.. "the war against the west, has only just begun"

I hope he is wrong, although I suspect there might be an element of truth in it  
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cpd
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:50 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Bye Bye buddy. Enjoy your life in jail.

Indeed - it's a very long time, and not a very nice place.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Just shoot him.

No, then he gets his wish. Life in prison prevents that.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
It was along the lines of.. "the war against the west, has only just begun"

It's probably just a bit of theatrical bluster I think (well, I hope).
 
Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:52 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 12):
it's a very long time, and not a very nice place.
Quoting cpd (Reply 12):
No, then he gets his wish. Life in prison prevents that.

To him it's just fine.
He get's what he wishes in prison or out of prison. Take some time to read the links I posted in reply #10.
This is scary stuff.
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ltbewr
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:28 am

It's too bad that when he was putting together his bomb that it didn't go off and kill him. Now the taxpayers get stuck with millions in costs in housing this sick bastard. At least he admited his guilt and he wasn't tortured to get him to plead guilty.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:59 pm

Whay can't guys like him be sent to Guantanamo?
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futurepilot16
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:38 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Just shoot him. Why waste my tax dollars by keeping him alive in prison? Shoot him in the head and send his family a bill for the bullet

I couldn't agree more. $15,000 per year of my tax dollars going to this bastard for the rest of his life, you can't argue that. I say we release him in the middle of the desert with no water and video tape it as he suffers to death of thirst and heat exhaustion, then send it to Al Jazeera and let them show the extremisst what we do to their kind when we capture them.    . Unfortunately, we can't do that because of human rights   
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:41 pm

Maybe they should have given him the choice to be tried by a Sharia court and then invited the big guy with the big sword over from Saudi-Arabia?   

In any case, in a few weeks he will have realised that yesterday was the beginning of the rest of his life. It will be extremely monotonous and I´m sure that in a few years he will wish that he got the bullet or a quick strike with a sword, especially if he serves his life in an underground cell in a supermax with one hour a day "outside" in some enclosed courtyard.

Jan

[Edited 2010-10-06 10:45:56]
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TWFirst
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 8):
He is a nobody. A nothing. Put him in a dark hole and let him rot. No publicity, no stories, nothing. Killing him would be too easy..this is better.

  

Quoting Airstud (Reply 9):
Also if you kill these jihadists, you're giving them what they want. They fancy themselves "martyrs" if they are killed in the course of their crusade, whether by ammunition or execution.

I feel better that we deny them their "glory."

  

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
In any case, in a few weeks he will have realised that yesterday was the beginning of the rest of his life. It will be extremely monotonous and I´m sure that in a few years he will wish that he got the bullet or a quick strike with a sword, especially if he serves his life in an underground cell in a supermax with one hour a day "outside" in some enclosed courtyard.

  
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Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
It will be extremely monotonous and I´m sure that in a few years he will wish that he got the bullet or a quick strike with a sword, especially if he serves his life in an underground cell in a supermax with one hour a day "outside" in some enclosed courtyard.

Folks, you all need to read these links from reply #10.
We have a MUCH bigger problem on our hand now that he is in a US prison.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1416712/posts

http://www.radicalislam.org/threat/homegrown-threat/us-prisons

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islpris.htm
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AGM100
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:27 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 15):
Whay can't guys like him be sent to Guantanamo?



They should be . They should be handled as enemy combatants or spies like in war time.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
We have a MUCH bigger problem on our hand now that he is in a US prison.



Thank you Superfly ... this needs to be discussed . And this is not a new problem in our prisons ... my father works with a Christian ministry and charity for inmates,they have been seeing the Islamification of our inmates for years .

Radical Islam is becoming the ultimate form of rebellion against the "system" . It has become the rage against machine so to speak ...and that is dangerous .
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N1120A
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):

Would it be accurate to label him as another Timothy McVeigh? Probably not, but I think maybe a few would....

In a way, sure. A domestic criminal who is being punished for his crimes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):

In prison he can devote his entire life to reading the quran and praying throughout the day.

And? As anti-religion as I am, I would rather prisoners be sitting around praying, reading holy texts and not rioting and trying to escape.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
my father works with a Christian ministry and charity for inmates,they have been seeing the Islamification of our inmates for years .

So, inmates can't choose their religion? Early release for "accepting Jesus as their lord and savior?" So much for the First Amendment.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):

We have a MUCH bigger problem on our hand now that he is in a US prison.

Except that he is likely going to be locked up in ADX Florence or somewhere similarly isolated.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
my father works with a Christian ministry and charity for inmates,they have been seeing the Islamification of our inmates for years .

Well, in this case your father is not exactly neutral, since he basically sees the "competition" growing.

But it is true that radical movements tend to attract social losers, former petty criminals and instable personalities, who suddenly have seen the light and become fanatics of their ideology (e.g. the sister of a German, who converted to radical Islam and was caught building bombs, said in an interview that if her brother would not have joined the Islamists, he would as well have joined a militant Neo-Nazi group, or, 30 years before, a radical communist group like the Baader-Meinhof gang.).

Jan
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DocLightning
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:09 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Just shoot him. Why waste my tax dollars by keeping him alive in prison? Shoot him in the head and send his family a bill for the bullet

Because life in prison is a lot worse than a bullet to the head.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):

They should be . They should be handled as enemy combatants or spies like in war time.

So no more Constitution? If Tom Ridge says you're a terrorist that's it? Off to Guantanamo with you? That's one way to let the terrorists win. Get us to dismantle our own Constitution.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):

Thank you Superfly ... this needs to be discussed . And this is not a new problem in our prisons ... my father works with a Christian ministry and charity for inmates,they have been seeing the Islamification of our inmates for years .

Well it's a no-brainer. If you're a radical Islamic recruiter, where better to find a supply of angry, alienated, violent young men than the prison system? You don't even have to brainwash them into hating the government! Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Prisoners lose every other Constitutional right. Why do they keep the right to freedom of religion? In my opinion, there should be no chaplains of any religion in the prison. Want freedom of religion? Don't break the law.
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Airstud
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Prisoners lose every other Constitutional right. Why do they keep the right to freedom of religion? In my opinion, there should be no chaplains of any religion in the prison. Want freedom of religion? Don't break the law.

Wha...? ...Wha?!?!?  Wow!

Where is the left-wing, Paco-tending, pediatrician of San Francisco, and what have you done with him?!?  

Gonna have to start calling you DocRightwing. You'd think I'd be inclined to say "Welcome to our side" but really what you say here seems extreme and not reform-minded. Even conservative Airstud here believes that criminals (with short, non-violent rap sheets) should be given a chance at reform, and religion, in some cases, helps them make proper decisions (especially those whose lives previously haven't afforded them such opportunities).

Also I'm not sure it's accurate to say prisoners lose other Constimatutional rights...don't they retain their Sixth Amendment right to legal counsel?
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DocLightning
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:19 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):

Gonna have to start calling you DocRightwing. You'd think I'd be inclined to say "Welcome to our side" but really what you say here seems extreme and not reform-minded. Even conservative Airstud here believes that criminals (with short, non-violent rap sheets) should be given a chance at reform, and religion, in some cases, helps them make proper decisions (especially those whose lives previously haven't afforded them such opportunities).

Religion is a two-edged sword. And there are a lot of behaviors that get excused in the name of religion that ought not to be. When you are dealing with criminal minds, religion can justify their action, turn them into holy warriors, or convince them that they have found God and been reformed and thus don't need treatment.

We, as a society, need to decide on whether the role of the prison system is to reform people or punish them. If it's the former, then the whole system needs to be revamped into a "re-education" system. If it's the latter, then we should treat it that way.

People think that religion is a panacea and that it teaches moral behavior and turns bad people into good. That's a bunch of horsedung. Religion does not make good people "gooder." It may serve sometimes as a framework for shepherding lost souls. But it can just as well be a tool of destruction, used to teach hate, pride, fear, and violence. God's Army, Al-Qaeda, etc. etc. etc.

So do you only allow state-sponsored chaplains? There's a priest, minister, imam, rabbi, blah blah... until a prisoner claims that he's a Jedi or a Druid or a Wiccan and there's no state-sponsored chaplain for that religion. From a constitutional point of view, it's best to just say: "No chaplains."

Besides, the 1st amendment guarantees freedom of religion. It does NOT guarantee access to a given religious leader or figure.

So to say that religion can help people make proper decisions is possibly true, but it's just as likely to teach them to make even worse ones.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):


Also I'm not sure it's accurate to say prisoners lose other Constimatutional rights...don't they retain their Sixth Amendment right to legal counsel?

They retain some, yes. But, to quote the Alcatraz prisoner's manual: "You have the right to food, shelter, and medical attention. Anything else you get is a privilege."

Oh, and lest anyone accuse me of being a liberal, you're finding out that I'm not.
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WarRI1
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
"You have the right to food, shelter, and medical attention. Anything else you get is a privilege."

I wish him a short stay in prison, not a long stay by any means.  
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Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:29 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
Thank you Superfly ... this needs to be discussed . And this is not a new problem in our prisons ... my father works with a Christian ministry and charity for inmates,they have been seeing the Islamification of our inmates for years .

Radical Islam is becoming the ultimate form of rebellion against the "system" . It has become the rage against machine so to speak ...and that is dangerous




One of the articles states that Muslims in US prisons is 20-times higher than in the US population.

I have a cousin who unfortunately made some wrong choices in life that led him in to a 2-year sentence in the Illinois state prison (luckily he's turned his life around since he's been out).
I'd ask him about all those horror stories we hear of men getting raped and assaulted. He said it was partially true but if you converted to Islam, you would be exempt and get respect. Didn't matter what you were serving time for either.
So if any of you think that a terrorist, murderer, rapist or pedophile is going to face a life of hell behind bars, it's not true. He has options and converting to Islam is a way to avoid the problems in prison.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
I would rather prisoners be sitting around praying, reading holy texts and not rioting and trying to escape.



...and influencing those that are serving shorter sentences? When they get out, they'll show society what they have learned. That is not a good thing.   

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
So, inmates can't choose their religion? Early release for "accepting Jesus as their lord and savior?" So much for the First Amendment.



Inmates are released early for good behavior. Many of the converts are on good behavior behind bars.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Well it's a no-brainer. If you're a radical Islamic recruiter, where better to find a supply of angry, alienated, violent young men than the prison system? You don't even have to brainwash them into hating the government! Like shooting fish in a barrel.



...and when they get out, they become a problem.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
People think that religion is a panacea and that it teaches moral behavior and turns bad people into good. That's a bunch of horsedung. Religion does not make good people "gooder." It may serve sometimes as a framework for shepherding lost souls. But it can just as well be a tool of destruction, used to teach hate, pride, fear, and violence. God's Army, Al-Qaeda, etc. etc. etc.

So do you only allow state-sponsored chaplains? There's a priest, minister, imam, rabbi, blah blah... until a prisoner claims that he's a Jedi or a Druid or a Wiccan and there's no state-sponsored chaplain for that religion. From a constitutional point of view, it's best to just say: "No chaplains."



  
Amen Doc!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Prisoners lose every other Constitutional right. Why do they keep the right to freedom of religion? In my opinion, there should be no chaplains of any religion in the prison. Want freedom of religion? Don't break the law.



  
I'm beginning to like this whole DocLightning for dictator thing.   

Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):
Airstud here believes that criminals (with short, non-violent rap sheets) should be given a chance at reform, and religion, in some cases, helps them make proper decisions (especially those whose lives previously haven't afforded them such opportunities).



True but not in this scumbag's case. He is a terrorist and they don't have a track record of reforming themselves and leaving that mindset behind. We're not talking about a bank robber or drug dealer, we're talking about a terrorist that is part of a global movement and these cockroaches need to be crushed.
Game over for them! No 2nd. chances for them.



Life in a US prison is better than the average life of someone in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia or a poor person in Saudi Arabia.
It's hard for me to be jumping for joy now that he is locked up because in his mind, it gives him more opportunity to convert more followers. It's a win, win situation for him.

I have a feeling that this is the REAL reason behind California's recent decriminalization of marijuana law. Too many inmates locked up for petty marijuana crimes and end up being influenced by these Islamic recruiters.
As I've always said, prison should be a place for societies most DANGEROUS people!
It's stupid to lock up deadbeat dads and drug users simply because 'we don't like them'.
We need to be careful who we send to prison, they may come out as a terrorist.
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soon7x7
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:48 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
the guy is a 'U.S citizen'.

No he wasn't...he was a pedigree radical from begining to end. I'm sure when you get down to it guys like him are available by the six pack if you can find them.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
state prison (luckily he's turned his life around since he's been out).
I'd ask him about all those horror stories we hear of men getting raped and assaulted. He said it was partially true but if you converted to Islam, you would be exempt and get respect. Didn't matter what you were serving time for either.
So if any of you think that a terrorist, murderer, rapist or pedophile is going to face a life of hell behind bars, it's not true. He has options and converting to Islam is a way to avoid the problems in prison.

Basically it is the same as joining a prison gang. If you are alone, unless you are really tough and strong and manage to keep the others away by scaring them off, the only way to survive is by joining a group of other prisoners for mutual protection. Obviously such protection comes with a price. You´ll have to accept the gang´s doctrine and to subordinate yourself to a hierarchy.
Then radical religion, especially Islam, appeals to people who can´t make right decisions by themselves. Radical religion (or any totalitarian -ism) doesn´t require you to think for yourself. It will give you strict rules how to live your life. And since these will differ from the set of rules set down in the country´s laws, the person can style himself as a "rebel".

My African ex converted from moderate Islam to radical born-again evangelical Christianity because she needed somebody to tell her how to run her life (one reason for our divorce, she was ok as a Muslim, but insufferable as a born-again Christian, who had to ask her pastor for any decision).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:36 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
If you are alone, unless you are really tough and strong and manage to keep the others away by scaring them off, the only way to survive is by joining a group of other prisoners for mutual protection. Obviously such protection comes with a price. You´ll have to accept the gang´s doctrine and to subordinate yourself to a hierarchy.

Joining a prison gang doesn't prevent you from getting raped and forced in to sodomy. Unless you go in made of muscle and know how to kick some serious butt, you are in some serious trouble. Even in prison, it takes time to develope those huge muscles. Either you'll end up someone's 'b-t-h' or you can submit to Islam and no one will mess with you.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
My African ex converted from moderate Islam to radical born-again evangelical Christianity because she needed somebody to tell her how to run her life (one reason for our divorce, she was ok as a Muslim, but insufferable as a born-again Christian, who had to ask her pastor for any decision).

Was this the lady from Liberia?
That is too bad that she became a bible-thumper but usually converts to any religion will be the most radical.
Seeing what the Muslims are doing in her native homeland I have to say it's rather brave of her to make the switch. Considering the Muslims in western Africa has bombed more Churches than the Ku Klutz Klan in the southern parts of the United States, I wouldn't fault her for her switch.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:46 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Joining a prison gang doesn't prevent you from getting raped and forced in to sodomy. Unless you go in made of muscle and know how to kick some serious butt, you are in some serious trouble. Even in prison, it takes time to develope those huge muscles. Either you'll end up someone's 'b-t-h' or you can submit to Islam and no one will mess with you.

Well, here Russian mafia gangs took over many prisons. They don´t use drugs and are totally ruthless in protecting their own, so if you join one of these gangs and obey their rules, you´ll be left alone by anybody else.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
My African ex converted from moderate Islam to radical born-again evangelical Christianity because she needed somebody to tell her how to run her life (one reason for our divorce, she was ok as a Muslim, but insufferable as a born-again Christian, who had to ask her pastor for any decision).

Was this the lady from Liberia?
That is too bad that she became a bible-thumper but usually converts to any religion will be the most radical.
Seeing what the Muslims are doing in her native homeland I have to say it's rather brave of her to make the switch. Considering the Muslims in western Africa has bombed more Churches than the Ku Klutz Klan in the southern parts of the United States, I wouldn't fault her for her switch.

She was from Sierra leone. And, in any case, Sierra Leonian Muslims are very easygoing (as well as those from Liberia and other West african countries). E.g. you wouldn´t see women covering themselves up and traditionally market women have a very big influence in society. It is only through the last ten years or so that radial missionaries from Saudi Arabia or so try to convert the local Muslims to their branch of Islam.

What you see in Liberia and Sierra Leone is basically a tribal conflict. When the British banned slavery in the 1830s, the Royal Navy started intercepting slave ships on the Atlantic ocean. But instead of trying to find out where the captured slaves found on board of these ships originally cam from, they set up settlements in today´s Sierra Leone and Liberia. These released slaves soon became Christians and western style educated by missionaries and became the ruling class in these countries during and after colonial time (in Sierra Leone they are called "Crios", Creoles, and are speaking a kind of pidgin English).
Obviously the native, mostly Muslim, tribes were not amused about the fact that they were ruled by outsiders, even though there existed many marriages across tribal borders and while the Muslims adopted Christian customs, the Christians there also adopted Muslim customs.
The Crio got disposed from rule in several bloody coups and civil wars.
The bombing of churches can be seen in the context of a tribal war, with one tribe being Christian and the others Muslim.

Jan

[Edited 2010-10-07 03:05:45]
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NIKV69
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:59 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
So no more Constitution? If Tom Ridge says you're a terrorist that's it? Off to Guantanamo with you? That's one way to let the terrorists win. Get us to dismantle our own Constitution.

Personally I think this person should get the death penalty. I don't care about how he is viewed as a hero if he gives his life. If you attempt to kill people terrorist means and your tied to a bigger cell from the middle east it should be mandatory execution. This way we don't have to worry where to send you, level level of security, Gitmo etc.
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Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:34 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Well, here Russian mafia gangs took over many prisons. They don´t use drugs and are totally ruthless in protecting their own, so if you join one of these gangs and obey their rules, you´ll be left alone by anybody else.

Are non-Whites allowed to join the Russian mafia?
Are these Russian skinhead gangs?
Muslims accept all races.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
(as well as those from Liberia and other West african countries).

Have you seen what's going on in Nigeria these days?
It's much worse than Alabama in the 1960s when there were a series of Church bombings.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
The bombing of churches can be seen in the context of a tribal war, with one tribe being Christian and the others Muslim.

Any way you slice it, they can't get along with their neighbors.
Palestine/Israel, Sudan, Somalia, Russia/Chechnya, southern Philippines, Thailand/Malaysia border, India/Pakistan, Ground Zero, cities throughout Europe, etc.
Is it all just a coincidence?
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AGM100
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:31 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
So, inmates can't choose their religion? Early release for "accepting Jesus as their lord and savior?" So much for the First Amendment.



Of course they can . I have not heard of the early release scenario you mentioned...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
Well, in this case your father is not exactly neutral, since he basically sees the "competition" growing.



I guess you could see it that way ... but my father and the men in the ministry were certainly not looking for parishioners to come to church on Sunday., They cared about the Men in there ... and cared about their families. After release the ministry helped them get jobs and counseling , helped them with finances and custody issues. There are people in the world who actually do care about others you know ... and are not just looking for recruits.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
So no more Constitution?



Someone is going to have to make the hard choice sooner or later ... I dont know the answer .
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:47 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
(as well as those from Liberia and other West african countries).

Have you seen what's going on in Nigeria these days?
It's much worse than Alabama in the 1960s when there were a series of Church bombings.

In Nigeria it is again tribal warfare. The population in the desert north is mainly Muslim, while the population close to the coast (where the oil is) is mainly Christian or animist. The British colonialists used the Muslim (often semi-nomadic herdsmen) warrior tribes from the north as colonial troops (e.g. the Haussa). The people in the south were on the other hand mainly farmers and traders.
After the country became independent, the northern Muslim tribes practically controlled the military and through coups managed to get power over the country. Now most natural resources (especially oil) are in the south, and the southern population wanted to have more say in where the revenue was going to, but the northerners didn´t want to lose their source of income. The result was a tribal conflict, again with the two sides of different religions.
Add fanatics like the Salafists active in many parts of Saharan Africa (and sponsored again by individual rich Saudis), who profess that they are the true voice of Islam and that the wealth should be controlled by them because they are the true belivers.

Whenever you´ll have a "religious" conflict, it pays to have a look at the history and who is going to profit from it.
E.g. in Sierra Leone, besides the mainly Christian Crio (the descedants of freed slaves), you have the two main tribes Temne and Mendé (there exist several other tribes as well, but these three groups are the biggest. My Ex was a Temne). The civil war, which raked the country during the 1990s was mainly about who would control the revenue from diamond mining, with Liberia´s ex-dictator Taylor (a convicted criminal, who escaped from prison in the US) financing a particularly violent group to get control of the diamond fields just across the border in Sierra Leone.
In short: After the British left, the Crio were in charge (and pocketed the money). Then there was a military coup and the Crio got replaced by the Temne, which upset the Mende, who started, with the help of Taylor, a rebel group caled RUF. This group was not interested in setting up an administration, they just wanted to control the diamond fields, which they did with ruthless brutallity (chopping of hands from villages including children was their main method).
In the end even the Mendé had enough of this group and a UN mission (plus a British Army general, who was sernt to Sierra Leone with a paratroop unit to evacuate foreigners, but saw a chance to stop the civil war by destroying the rebels with his soldiers) cracked down really hard on the rebels.


Philippines:

At about the same time when the Spanish conquered the Philippines coming from the North, Islam spread out from Indonesia from the South. In Mindenao Islam was already firmly entrenched when the Spanish arrived and with them Catholicism incl. the Holy inquisition.
The tribes in Mindenao were, even before, know to be warrior tribes, who successfully resisted the Spanish (even though Catholics settled in the Northern regions of Mindenao and in the bigger cities in the South).
When the US took over as a colonial power after the Spanish-American war, they cracked down ruthlessly on the Filipino Muslims, a war, which ended only in the 1920s.
Later, the dictator Marcos initiated a resettlement program to move Catholic Filipinos from the overpopulated islands in the North to the relatively low populated regions in Mindenao. This was coupled with a Christianisation program.
Addtionally Mindenao holds big natural resources, which in many cases heve not been exploited yet.
Thisd time saw the birth of a guerilla group called MILF (Moro Islamic Liberation Front).
After Marcos got kicked out, the constitution of the Philippines was changed to give all religions equal rights, with all citizen, no matter what religion being equal. Before they were second class citizens.
Now, while many Filipino Muslims see themselves as Filipino citizens of Muslim belief, there are some, who think that only a Muslim homeland will allow them their full rights, because else they will always be a minority.
The predominatly Muslim regions in the Philippines have a status of autonomy, but this is not enough for the more radicals. They, in essence, demand that all territory, which was Muslim controlled by the time the Spanish arrived, should become independent asnd that all non-Muslims, who settled there for the last 500 years, should move out, since, in the eyes of the radicals, they have no right to live there.
These territorial demands make up about 1/3 of the landmass of the Philippines for about 5% of the population includin most natural resources.
It is true that statistically Muslim Filipinos have lower education, but part of it comes from the fact that the more radical Muslims refuse to sent their children to government schools because they fear that their children will be indoctrinated to feel as Filipinos, not primarely as Muslims.
Then, the old pre-Spanish Muslim government structures with Sultans and Datus had disapperared. Instead you have family clans, who fight each other violently to keep feudal privileges (the massacre in Magindanao earlier this year was the result of a confligt between two Muslim family clans, one which had the position of provincial governor for many decades and got accustomed to receive bribes etc. and the other one, where a guy wanted to run for governor).
Additionally in this region you have lots of bandits, who pretend to be politically motivated, but who are in reality only interested in personal gain.
On the south western islands of Jolo and Basilan you have a notorious group called Abu Sayaff, which was initiated by missionaries from Saudi Arabia and returnees from the first Afghanistan war. They are the most fanatical, but I´ve got to day that piracy hase a long tradition in this archipelago, and these island were never really under the control of any government.
I wil travel to this area this December (my fiancee comes from there) and will report further.

Concerning Southern Thailand, the provinces are ethnically closer connected to northern Malaysia. Due to a historical quirk they became part of Thailand. From what I understand the governments before Thaksin left them quite a bit of selfrule and autonomy and there was no trouble during this period, but Thaksin removed this autonomy and tried to force his way on them, resulting in unrest, which was quickly exploited by radicals from abroad.

Sudan again is aclassical conflict about access to resources. Same as in Nigeria, the Arab Muslim population from the North (again semi-nomadic herdsmen with a warrior culture) were left in charge after the colonial period ended. The population in southern Sudan are mainly black Christians. Now some 20 years ago oil was discovered in southern Sudan. The southern population wanted to split away, while the northerners wanted to get their hands of the money.

I´m not even going to start about India/Pakistan, but again there is much more behind it than just religion.
The same applies to Chechnya/Russia.
European cities are just the same, and we don´t have civil wars over here.
In the end it is gang warfare camouflaged as religious conflict.
The nice thing about religion is that one can´t question it, because it comes from a god and that it makes a nice way of seperating "us" versus "them".

Jan
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DocLightning
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:51 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):

Personally I think this person should get the death penalty.

I disagree. I want him to rot there for a long time. I think that's a lot worse than death.
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Superfly
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I disagree. I want him to rot there for a long time. I think that's a lot worse than death.

As I've said in my above post, he will not "rot" in prison. It will be free room & board for him to devote his life to his religion of choice and convert others.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):

Thanks for taking the time to type a very well informed post. Yes many groups have suffered in the past but it does not excuse the terrorist acts of today.
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):

Thanks for taking the time to type a very well informed post. Yes many groups have suffered in the past but it does not excuse the terrorist acts of today.

While the MILF in the Philippines has extreme territorial damands and fights a guerilla war against Filipino police and military, their leadership clearly distanced themselves from terrorist attacks (kidnappings, bomb explosed in markets, grenades thrown into public busses during rush hour etc.). But they have no full control over some of their fighters or bandit groups, who call themselves MILF. The fighting two years ago in north-west Mindenao (in which my future brother-in-law participated as a paramilitary police officer) was started by a local MILF commander on a personal vendetta. Apparently a relative got killed by the police or army and this commander used his unit to attack villages full of civilians in north-west Mindenao as personal revenge without the approval and knowledge of his own commanders.

Jan
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DocLightning
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RE: Times Square Bomb Plotter Gets Life In Jail

Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):

As I've said in my above post, he will not "rot" in prison. It will be free room & board for him to devote his life to his religion of choice and convert others.


Not if he's in solitary it's not. I hope he is.
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