lewis
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:04 pm

Sometimes people get the impression that, just because the UAE is a rich country with awesome tall buildings and nice hotels and beaches, it is a very progressive country. Well, it is not, it is still a conservative Muslim country with laws based on Sharia. To tell you the truth, the above article doesn't surprise me one bit.

Even if the majority of residents are international as the article states, it is still their country and they decide what laws they want for their country. Don't like it? Don't visit the place or move there!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
As long as you dont leave any marks you avoid the $130 fine.

Isn't it about time we stopped judging other nations on there local laws ?
One way or the other, its up to them to decide whats appropriate or not in UAE society isn't it ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:22 am

All dreams of bombing the place aside, what is with this strange country? They're wealthy and they want to be a modern first-world place, yet you hear this sort of stuff and realize it really is still the dark ages there.

They may have an indoor ski resort, but buildings there don't have addresses- no joke.

And I seriously don't think you can be taken seriously in the western world if domestic violence is legal. At least I hope not.
 
Quokka
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:10 am

In this day and age decisions like that are wrong (not that I am suggesting that they were ever right) but let us remember that it isn't all that long ago the civilised countries had equally abhorrent laws. It's barely twenty years since apartheid was overcome in a country where most people regarded themselves as Christian. In the US today there is still debate about gays serving in the armed forces and in most countries around the world gays can not marry. At least we are free to debate the issues, but remember the bit about "first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye."

As to not travelling to the UAE, to each his/ her own, but there are other countries whose laws I don't like. I don't support the dealth penalty, but that hasn't stopped me travelling to countries that still have it, like Malaysia, Singapore and India among others.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 15):
but buildings there don't have addresses- no joke.


Really? They do have street names and most businesses use PO Box addresses for snail mail.
 
directorguy
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:31 pm

A lot of Muslims don't believe that wives should be beaten/physically disciplined. It's a shame the UAE continues to pass laws like this (this is just the most recent in a string of equally ridiculous court rulings) but I guess to each their own. Theb Gulf countries are extremely conservative. Let me point out it's a cultural thing-nothing to do with the UAE being a Muslim country i.e. Islam 'allows' men to beat their women.
 
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falstaff
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:58 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 5):
Let me point out it's a cultural thing-nothing to do with the UAE being a Muslim country i.e. Islam 'allows' men to beat their women.

I think that there is a lot of cultural things that get put into religion, that the religion says nothing about. This isn't just an issue with Islam either. I think this happens with just about every religion.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 4):
but let us remember that it isn't all that long ago the civilised countries had equally abhorrent laws

to those on the outside looking in yes, but maybe not for the majority of people living there. Rhodesia was shunned by the world and look what happened? We got Zimbabwae. Maybing shunning Rhodesia wasn't such a good idea after all.

There are lots of people around the world, and here in the USA, that think putting criminals to death is abhorrent, while others, like me, think it isn't done enough. You are never going to get everyone to think the same. It is not one world

I don't think men should beat their wives and kids, but I don't want to tell the government of the UAE, or any other country, what to do.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 5):
nothing to do with the UAE being a Muslim country i.e. Islam 'allows' men to beat their women.

I don't think anybody here is arguing that. I'm merely arguing that for a place that is trying to impress western society with it's 7-star hotel, fake islands, skiing in the desert, etc, this sort of thing reveals the truth.

I know of many fundamentalist Christians who barely stop short of saying its ok to beat your wife. They certainly beat their kids, but that shouldn't (and hasn't) stopped many US States and European nations from prohibiting it.

I'm the biggest advocate of total religious freedom and tolerance you'll ever find, but religion IS NOT an excuse to do whatever you like.
 
Starbuk7
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:45 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 7):
I know of many fundamentalist Christians who barely stop short of saying its ok to beat your wife. They certainly beat their kids, but that shouldn't (and hasn't) stopped many US States and European nations from prohibiting it.


I don't know where you got that little tidbit about Christians beating their wives because it is not in anything that I have ever read or been taught. Beating your wife or children with the intent to harm them is just wrong, period.

But giving your kids a good spanking every now and then if they deserve it is not "beating" your kids. I had my share when growing up and my children had far less that I did but still got some, and neither myself nor my "grown" children have any mental hangups over the issue, and raise their children the same way they were brought up.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:56 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 7):
I know of many fundamentalist Christians who barely stop short of saying its ok to beat your wife. They certainly beat their kids, but that shouldn't (and hasn't) stopped many US States and European nations from prohibiting it.

What a phony straw man. That's not the way it works, at all. No Christian church I've ever been to teaches this. Sounds like you're just making this up for some lousy agenda.

Wife is your equal in a marriage. Man is "spiritual" head of household--but marriage is a 50/50 partnership. NEVER OK to beat your wife. Never OK to touch your wife or kids in anger. EVER.

For kids: Spanking OK (seems we could use more of this lately). Beating NEVER OK.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
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falstaff
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 7):
I know of many fundamentalist Christians who barely stop short of saying its ok to beat your wife. They certainly beat their kids


Who are these people? Nearly all of my friends are regular church goers and they belong to a number of different denominations. None of them beat their wives and kids, or would tolerate those that would. There are lots of people who beat their wives and kids and they come from every kind of religious, economic, and ethnic background. Some people are just creeps.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 7):
I know of many fundamentalist Christians who barely stop short of saying its ok to beat your wife. They certainly beat their kids, but that shouldn't (and hasn't) stopped many US States and European nations from prohibiting it.

You are making stuff to put it simply. No Christian church or supreme court in any Christian country says its ok to whack your wife. What a load of BS.
 
EK156
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:30 pm

This is the original article from the original source rather than the other media sources who only seem to report the negative or controversial side of the story

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...court-rules-on-domestic-discipline

I am totally against any beating of anyone and I know alot of Emaratis from the new generation who also are totally against any kind of beating of any family member. These are laws of the past and the current UAE young generation are educated and don't follow such rules. The Emarati girls are educated and some of them occupy high positions in the UAE government. These Sharia Laws must and will eventually change cause times have changed. Also people have changed and life has changed.

Unfortunately one statement from a judge that has been reported by hundreds of international media has made the UAE people, arabs and more look like cave people. That is not fair to generalize. Things don't change over night, but they are changing. Honor Killing, the worst ever rule or law that can be even thought off, is illegal and punishable by law in many arab and muslim countries, yet immediately people start commenting about it everytime there is the slightest article to make the arabs look like animals. But you know what, I only blame ourselves for all this, when we can be working harder to improve education, living standards and much more, and stop crying foul on this and that. The new generation will eventually make the difference and time will only tell

Today the Judicial Chief has added a note on this issue as well:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...ll-not-be-tolerated-judicial-chief
 
WesternA318
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:36 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 13):
. The new generation will eventually make the difference and time will only tell

Smartest post on a.net. EVER. You sir, have my respect.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
slider
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 13):
These are laws of the past and the current UAE young generation are educated and don't follow such rules.

I hate to sound cynical or skeptical, but several centuries of history would indicate otherwise.

We'll find out a few centuries from now as to whether that's the case. But since 632AD, it hasn't been. Those aren't the laws of the past--they are Islamic law, correct or incorrect?
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:19 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 13):
EK156

Brilliant post.

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
I hate to sound cynical or skeptical, but several centuries of history would indicate otherwise.

We'll find out a few centuries from now as to whether that's the case. But since 632AD, it hasn't been. Those aren't the laws of the past--they are Islamic law, correct or incorrect?

Enlighten me what does the Islamic law say about hitting the wife?
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 6):
I don't think men should beat their wives and kids, but I don't want to tell the government of the UAE, or any other country, what to do.

Exactly.
Its none of our business

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
Wife is your equal in a marriage.

Not in all cultures it isn't. And this is one of them.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 13):
The new generation will eventually make the difference and time will only tell

This is the situation generally. Countries/cultures evolve over many many decades/centuries. This I'm sure will happen in the UAE too.
The UAE is in many senses a very multi cultured society already, so I would imagine we will not have to wait to long for there to be a major shift in what people think is appropriate or not.

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
I hate to sound cynical or skeptical, but several centuries of history would indicate otherwise.

We'll find out a few centuries from now as to whether that's the case. But since 632AD, it hasn't been. Those aren't the laws of the past--they are Islamic law, correct or incorrect?

Dose the UAE today look anything like it did in 632AD ?

I very much doubt that.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:12 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
That's not the way it works, at all. No Christian church I've ever been to teaches this. Sounds like you're just making this up for some lousy agenda.

Please enlighten me as to the agenda I'm pushing. And I didn't say it was widely practiced, or even Biblically correct- but there are weirdos out there- do a google search, and don't flame me for your own ignorance of the sick stuff that goes on in the world.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 12):
No Christian church or supreme court in any Christian country says its ok to whack your wife. What a load of BS.

That was my point, thank you very much. Civilized countries do not allow this. The UAE, under all the glitz and glamour, is not a civilized country.

[Edited 2010-10-20 16:03:22 by srbmod]
 
StuckInCA
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:53 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
Man is "spiritual" head of household

That just sounds ludicrous! What does that even mean?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
For kids: Spanking OK

Legally, anyway. Practically speaking... lets just say it's right there with abortion and guns. Something people just won't agree on.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:36 am

Quoting N537FX (Reply 18):
On that note, why don't you leave places like Israel alone for them to handle their affairs.


This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

If you cannot see the difference between how Israel conducts itself on the international stage, and this issue in the UAE then I suggest you go back to doing some more study, quickly.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
prebennorholm
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:40 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
Man is "spiritual" head of household

That just sounds ludicrous! What does that even mean?

Sorry StucklnCA, can't answer your question. So I did as I used to do in such a situation, I asked my wife.

She is totally with you - it just sounds ludicrous.

But thinking of it, it may be some misinterpretation of some old scripts.

In old days when some scripts were written - including the Bible - the societies were organized in an entirely different way. A "family" was somewhat wider and different than what we are used to. It wasn't just two - wife and husband - but three:

1. Wife (or sometimes wives) - to constantly give birth to children and raise them, period.

2. Slaves - to do all the physical work to sustain the family.

3. And finally the husband (man) who was left over with no other duties than exchange "rules" with other families and interprete them for wife and slaves, and maybe even learn to read and write, or at least have access to people who could read and write.

I have met Christian people who every time they read the word "man" or "husband" in their Bible, then they read it as "an adult individual with a dick between the legs". While the meaning of the writers often was "a person who has the time and other resources to engage in the wider aspects of society", we may for short call it "an educated person".

In a modern society we are doing our best to educate all individuals - to fit into the old time category 3 above. Category 1 and 2 do not exist any more.

In other words, we must be aware that often a simple google translation of 2000 years old Hebrew or Greek scrips are not always valid, but the word "man" in reality sometines means "an educated person".

We only need to read a hundred years old newspapers to see some funny things which we don't understand word for word. No wonder that some brain power is needed for always having correct interpretation of 2000 years old scripts. Whatever we read, we shall do our best to understand what the writer wanted to tell us.

Finally I think we have come forward to a correct modern day translation of "Man is "spiritual" head of household", a translation which could be approved by the writer:

"Everybody (except infants and seriously mentally ill individuals) shall play their natural role to their best ability in leading and sustaining the wellbeing of the family".

It makes sense. At least my wife approved it.

[Edited 2010-10-20 18:22:31]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Airstud
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:23 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
This is the original article from the original source rather than the other media sources who only seem to report the negative or controversial side of the story

Thank you ssssssoooo much for this link, EK156. It was refreshing to hear more of the story from a less biased - or at least differently biased   source.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:08 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
I am totally against any beating of anyone

Please know that I do believe you, and I don't have any reason to think you are a bad person. Your government is not the only one which needs to change its ways.
 
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n229nw
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:23 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Thread starter):
Let the debate begin on tolerance:

What's to debate? I seriously doubt that there is anyone on A.net who is going to come along and say this isn't a disturbing, disgusting ruling.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
This is the original article from the original source rather than the other media sources who only seem to report the negative or controversial side of the story

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...court-rules-on-domestic-discipline

I am totally against any beating of anyone and I know alot of Emaratis from the new generation who also are totally against any kind of beating of any family member. These are laws of the past and the current UAE young generation are educated and don't follow such rules. The Emarati girls are educated and some of them occupy high positions in the UAE government. These Sharia Laws must and will eventually change cause times have changed. Also people have changed and life has changed.

Unfortunately one statement from a judge that has been reported by hundreds of international media has made the UAE people, arabs and more look like cave people. That is not fair to generalize. Things don't change over night, but they are changing. Honor Killing, the worst ever rule or law that can be even thought off, is illegal and punishable by law in many arab and muslim countries, yet immediately people start commenting about it everytime there is the slightest article to make the arabs look like animals. But you know what, I only blame ourselves for all this, when we can be working harder to improve education, living standards and much more, and stop crying foul on this and that. The new generation will eventually make the difference and time will only tell

Today the Judicial Chief has added a note on this issue as well:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...ll-not-be-tolerated-judicial-chief

Great post! It's always nice to see examples of people who are bringing new good direction to the future!

Quoting Slider (Reply 14):
I hate to sound cynical or skeptical, but several centuries of history would indicate otherwise.

What in the world does that mean? Cultures change quickly. Would you say to a young person in the 1950s from the south who said he was against segregation that "history would indicate otherwise"? Women in Switzerland didn't get the vote until 1971. Would you tell a young Swiss person in 1965 who said that would soon change because it was ridiculous, and that his generation knew so, that "history would indicate otherwise"?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

Exactly.
Its none of our business

the hell it isn't. We all live in the same world, and we all have a right, and sometimes a duty to be aware of human rights abuses around that world. While I agree that it is good to start in one's own back yard (and we in the US have plenty to start with! As do you in Australia, etc., and as does everyone else) there is nothing wrong with being aware of what is going on elsewhere. International pressure often helps things improve, especially in countries that depend on tourism and foreign investment (not so much North Korea...)

[Edited 2010-10-20 21:38:50]
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Superfly
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:36 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 23):
I seriously doubt that there is anyone on A.net who is going to come along and say this isn't a disturbing, disgusting ruling.




We already have someone that seems to be OK with it.
I of course will not point any fingers.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 23):
We all live in the same world, and we all have a right, and sometimes a duty to be aware of human rights abuses around that world. While I agree that it is good to start in one's own back yard (and we in the US have plenty to start with! As do you in Australia, etc., and as does everyone else) there is nothing wrong with being aware of what is going on elsewhere. International pressure often helps things improve, especially in countries that depend on tourism and foreign investment (not so much North Korea...)




  

Though it's not necessary to send in troops over this but it's good to be aware. We can all do our part by boycotting this phony facade of a place. Don't fly any of their airlines and don't visit the UAE.
The more exposure this gets, the better. When/if their oil dries up, all they'll be stuck with is a bunch of empty skyscrapers and parked A380s with nowhere to go.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:31 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

Exactly.
Its none of our business

Oh, on the contrary, it's a lot of our business and your business. EK flies to your country and employs your citizens (I know that because the last EK departure I overheard at SFO had an Australian accent answering the radio calls). Your citizens fly there and spend money. There are international corporations, banks, etc.

In fact, both the US and Oz have a LOT of business in the UAE. Including the fact that EK flies American airliners powered by American engines.

And I think it's high time my country started putting its money where its mouth is. "You wanna be backwards wife-beaters? Fine. All your citizens can return to your country and all our citizens can return to ours. Your airline can't fly here anymore and any US holdings or property in the UAE will be moved to other countries. And we'll pack up our military base. Don't expect to be buying any more of our aircraft or engines...or getting support, either."

We have the power to crash their economy and stability. I don't understand why we don't use it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Springbok747
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:31 am

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 7):
I'm merely arguing that for a place that is trying to impress western society with it's 7-star hotel, fake islands, skiing in the desert, etc, this sort of thing reveals the truth.

It has been known for a long time that behind all the glitz and glamor there is a dark side..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7985361.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...he-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

Funny thing is that anybody who knew anything about human rights and the Middle East has been saying this for a long time.

Of course, when Westerners could get rich off of the slavery of poor Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans and others, when celebrities could buy luxury resorts shaped like palm trees, nobody gave a damn and the place was held up as some sort of paradise.

It's only when things turned bad for the rich Western expats that the international press woke up to the horrifying lack of human rights.
אני תומך בישראל
 
TheCol
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:31 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):

The world came together a long time ago because everyone agreed that the line had to be drawn somewhere. This is the line:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

In case you don't notice:

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.


Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.


Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.


Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
We already have someone that seems to be OK with it.

As long as it doesn't involve the United States or Israel.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Mudboy
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
We have the power to crash their economy and stability. I don't understand why we don't use it.

If and When we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan it will have a huge economic empact on Dubai. A very high percentage of Contractors in both Iraq and Afghan, transit trhough Dubai when coming and going, as well as have offices and HQs there. Once the troops pull out, alI the money that has been pouring in there 2002 will be gone.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:08 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 26):
It has been known for a long time that behind all the glitz and glamor there is a dark side..

I was never in denial, but you have to admit they manage to put up one heck of a front.

I usually don't agree that low-wage workers are being treated unfairly... but it's my understanding that the people going to Dubai are fed some misinformation and have their passports confiscated on arrival, yes?

When you have daily occurrences of Indian laborers jumping into freeway traffic just so their families can take advantage of the "blood money" laws, you know it must be a crappy place and that they must have been royally screwed over.

And have you read about the public bathrooms? Pit toilets in that climate?!?

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 28):

If and When we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan it will have a huge economic empact on Dubai

Their entire economy is not based on this one little industry. I'm sure it will hurt, just not all that much.
 
directorguy
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:09 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 15):
Enlighten me what does the Islamic law say about hitting the wife?

Good question.
There is a verse in the Quran that says that should women should be reprimanded by their husbands when they do something wrong. Now, the word used in the Quran is daraba....which when read at face value, means 'to hit'. However-there is a ton of debate about what that word really means. Many scholars believe that the verse commands men to basically reprimand them. There are tons of hadith (sayings of the Prophet) that forbid physical violence, and given how Islam protects and elevates woman's status in society, I personally cannot comprehend how Islam can condone, let alone 'order' men to beat their wives.
 
Maverick623
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
This is the original article from the original source rather than the other media sources who only seem to report the negative or controversial side of the story
Quoting Airstud (Reply 21):
It was refreshing to hear more of the story from a less biased - or at least differently biased

Hogwash. While I appreciate EK156's post about how things are changing, but can't change overnight, the articles posted really say nothing new. This was no low-level uneducated judge that said that one can lay a hand on a wife or child in anger.

Abuse isn't just a physical thing. I'm not saying the UAE will never change, but until it does I will refuse to support them if I can help it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):

We have the power to crash their economy and stability. I don't understand why we don't use it.

Because they have the oil to crash ours. You're probably too young (as am I, obviously) to remember the oil crises back in the 70s.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
I personally cannot comprehend how Islam can condone, let alone 'order' men to beat their wives.

The problem with Islam is that, like Christianity, there's a whole slew of different interpretations, even though the Official, Holy Quran is written in the same exact verbiage in the same exact language everywhere.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DocLightning
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:37 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):

Because they have the oil to crash ours. You're probably too young (as am I, obviously) to remember the oil crises back in the 70s.

Well, not to drag it back off topic, but there are ways to avoid that issue.
-Doc Lightning-

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RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:43 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
I personally cannot comprehend how Islam can condone, let alone 'order' men to beat their wives.

That's good to hear. Yet this court ruling happened. This is why we should not make this a religious thing... it is 100% about the government of the UAE.
 
Springbok747
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:08 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 29):
I usually don't agree that low-wage workers are being treated unfairly... but it's my understanding that the people going to Dubai are fed some misinformation and have their passports confiscated on arrival, yes?

Yeah pretty much. I've heard stories from people about their passports being confiscated etc. It happens in many Middle Eastern countries, not just the UAE. My uncle used to work in Oman (he is an engineer), and he tells me horror stories about how the lower class laborers (mostly Pakistanis) are treated. Hell..even his passport used to be held at the airport, and to leave the country he had to get permission from his boss (a local Omani) in writing and present that paper to the Royal Omani Police in order to get his passport back. It seems there used to be times when the guy (the owner of the factory) was a bit out of his mind and was refusing..he needed some coaxing (inviting him home for lunch or giving him gifts!).
I mean..WTF..why would you want to live in a place like that?! The pay is good yes..but I would never ever even think of living in a place like that where you have no freedoms and you are dependent on the mood swings of some asshole.
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TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:38 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 23):
the hell it isn't.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Oh, on the contrary, it's a lot of our business and your business.

I just feel that we interfere in other countries domestic situations far to much and usually come off second best as history will dictate.
This was a ruling bought down by the courts, it has nothing to do with religious beliefs at all.
That is why I say we should stay out of it.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
The world came together a long time ago because everyone agreed that the line had to be drawn somewhere. This is the line:

Really, and you believe that everyone agrees where that line is ?
I don't think so, UN or not.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
As long as it doesn't involve the United States or Israel.

Why bring then into it. Amazing that you see any similarity at all, even to mention these countries.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 34):
I mean..WTF..why would you want to live in a place like that?!

Because, for these workers, Dubai or the UAE is like working in NY compared to what they are usually accustomed to.You try living in some backward village in the Pakistani mountains. No shop's, sewer, telephone, etc
Dubai is simply heaven when compared to these places.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:18 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
That is why I say we should stay out of it

Things like this are, of course, not worth starting a war, or even imposing sanctions. But that doesn't stop me from disliking the place because of it, and refusing to go there even on a layover.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Because, for these workers, Dubai or the UAE is like working in NY compared to what they are usually accustomed to.

That's generally correct with regard to low-wage and immigrant workers. Their pay may sound awful to us but for them it is riches. However, it is not acceptable that they have their passports confiscated and are not permitted to leave after arriving. They are fed misinformation before going, and suffer for it. I don't have a problem with pay or conditions as long as people know what they are getting into, and are free to get out of it if they change their minds.

Besides, springbok was talking about his engineer uncle, who would be subjected to passport confiscation upon entering Oman. I hope he was well paid, because it would take an awful lot to get me to subject myself to that sort of b.s.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:48 am

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 36):
However, it is not acceptable that they have their passports confiscated and are not permitted to leave after arriving. They are fed misinformation before going, and suffer for it. I don't have a problem with pay or conditions as long as people know what they are getting into, and are free to get out of it if they change their minds.

I am sure these workers have the heads up as to whats going to happen with passports once they arrive. There is an extensive network of other workers, sometimes family that are actually based there in Dubai and have been for some time, working as laborers or other low paid jobs such as domestic maids and the like. Money is constantly sent "back home" as there wages are earned, Im sure there is a certain amount of info passed back home to. If it was so bad, Im sure the market would dry up once the word got around.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DocLightning
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):

This was a ruling bought down by the courts, it has nothing to do with religious beliefs at all.
That is why I say we should stay out of it.

On the contrary. In those countries, religion and law are one and the same.
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Maverick623
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:08 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
This was a ruling bought down by the courts, it has nothing to do with religious beliefs at all.

Look up the definition of "Sharia law".

Which, by the way, was the basis for the judge's ruling.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
slider
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 15):
Enlighten me what does the Islamic law say about hitting the wife?
Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
Good question.
There is a verse in the Quran that says that should women should be reprimanded by their husbands when they do something wrong. Now, the word used in the Quran is daraba....which when read at face value, means 'to hit'. However-there is a ton of debate about what that word really means. Many scholars believe that the verse commands men to basically reprimand them. There are tons of hadith (sayings of the Prophet) that forbid physical violence, and given how Islam protects and elevates woman's status in society, I personally cannot comprehend how Islam can condone, let alone 'order' men to beat their wives.

Thanks for jumping in there, directorguy....

Wonder if there's any rebuttal to that...
 
directorguy
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
Wonder if there's any rebuttal to that...

There are several rebuttals-search 'hitting women in Islam' and you'll find all sorts of links, written by people who clearly explain their argument. Some think that the verse orders women to be beaten lightly, some believe it should be a 'symbolic' beating. My personal belief is that Islam doesn't command men to beat their wives-as for symbolic/light beatings-how is that even plausible. Imagine if you fight with your wife and symbolically touch her shoulder of cheek, how on earth does that solve anything, let alone an argument.
Some people say that so long as the injury isn't visible, then it's okay.....well, clearly there would be emotional/physcological injuries, not to mention the injury could be internal.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 33):
That's good to hear. Yet this court ruling happened. This is why we should not make this a religious thing... it is 100% about the government of the UAE.

That same government recently (1-2 years ago) ordered a woman who accidentally killed her unborn child in a car accident to pay blood money to her husband.....no, the UAE government clearly has issues.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:56 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
Wonder if there's any rebuttal to that...

Uhhh...the court ruling which started this thread is a rebuttal to that.

And this sort of thing:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 41):
That same government recently (1-2 years ago) ordered a woman who accidentally killed her unborn child in a car accident to pay blood money to her husband.....no, the UAE government clearly has issues.

I had not heard that one. All I can say is...wow. It's worse than I had thought.

The fact that directorguy doesn't believe that domestic abuse is justified by the Quran doesn't mean all others feel the same way. He summed it up nicely in the post above this one.

It's impossible not to bring up religion in this debate, but the government of the UAE is the source of this. The fact that they used religion to back it is unfortunate, but if you look at decisions made throughout history, certainly not unusual. People use religion to justify ridiculous crap all the time.
 
slider
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
On the contrary. In those countries, religion and law are one and the same.

Precisely right. That remains one of THE largest stumbling blocks to the West's understanding of Islam. We see it through our eyes as a religion, yet it is not...it is indeed an all-encompassing way of life, that dictates social, religious, governmental, political mandates ALL under one umbrella. They are inseparable, as dictated by the Quran itself.

So it still cracks me up to hear that there is such a thing as secular Islam, when no such thing exists.
 
777way
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:30 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 41):
My personal belief is that Islam doesn't command men to beat their wives-as for symbolic/light beatings-how is that even plausible. Imagine if you fight with your wife and symbolically touch her shoulder of cheek, how on earth does that solve anything, let alone an argument.

Exactly its ridiculous, I think many scholsars are also preplexed by Islam and dont know what to make of some of its literal harsh commandments, so whatever comes across as literaly harsh must do's, they try to make it sweet and palatable with these ridiculous interpretations.
 
TheCol
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:43 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Really, and you believe that everyone agrees where that line is ?
I don't think so, UN or not.

It doesn't matter, the majority has spoken.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
This was a ruling bought down by the courts, it has nothing to do with religious beliefs at all.
That is why I say we should stay out of it.

What part of Sharia Law isn't religious extremism?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Why bring then into it. Amazing that you see any similarity at all, even to mention these countries.

It's amazing you don't see your own bias.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:07 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 45):
It doesn't matter, the majority has spoken.

Oh but it dose matter, very much, Thats why the the UN is still a going concern. Although for how much longer, I haven't a clue.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 45):
What part of Sharia Law isn't religious extremism?

Was there not more to the ruling than that

Quoting TheCol (Reply 45):
It's amazing you don't see your own bias.

Why. Because I don't agree with you. And what has this to do with the US or Israel ?????

Answer me that please.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Quokka
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:51 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 45):
What part of Sharia Law isn't religious extremism?


Zakat (the poor tax), trade, inheritance... Sharia covers much more than questions of crime and punishment. Long before most western countries recognised the right of women to own property it was accepted in Sharia Law. Oddly enough, there was a requirement that men should support or be financially responsible for their wives, but no similar obligation was placed upon the women.

While Islam and the law may be inseparable, how Sharia Law is applied varies from one country to another and the qadi would decide on a case by case basis. Under the Ottomans, dhimma law was also recognised - i.e. Christians and Jews had their own courts determining in disputes between members of their communities. The point here is not that I agree with Islam and Sharia (which simply means the path, or the way) but that Islam and Sharia is not the same everywhere. Throughout history there have been differences in interpretation. All Muslims may agree on the five pillars, but they then part company on a whole range of things. A bit like Christians really.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:36 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 43):

So it still cracks me up to hear that there is such a thing as secular Islam, when no such thing exists.

On the contrary, it certainly does. Turkey is an example. But much like Christian extremists here, their Muslim extremists are trying to establish a theocracy.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 47):

Zakat (the poor tax), trade, inheritance... Sharia covers much more than questions of crime and punishment. Long before most western countries recognised the right of women to own property it was accepted in Sharia Law. Oddly enough, there was a requirement that men should support or be financially responsible for their wives, but no similar obligation was placed upon the women.

There is actually a push by many Muslim women in the most extreme countries to move back toward a more traditional interpretation of Islamic law.

See, the traditional Islamic law had men and women filling separate, but complimentary roles. Not exactly women's lib, but women weren't property and they had rights. But religious extremism is, as we all know, not about piety but about greed. Greed for power, greed for money, etc. And also, I've noticed that religious extremists are really just mean people. They're bullies who claim to have God on their side. And, believe me, Muslim extremists are no worse than Christian or Jewish or Hindu extremists. The Muslim ones just happen to be the most troublesome these last few decades.

Much as many so-called "Christians" have taken any of the original messages from Jesus and twisted them into something bitter and hateful, the same has happened in Islam. Fortunately, we had an Enlightenment in the West in which a strong secularist movement started to fight against the bullies. In the Mid-East, this did not happen and the extremists are in control.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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TheCol
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RE: UAE Supreme Court: OK To Beat Wife And Kids

Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:56 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 47):
Sharia covers much more than questions of crime and punishment.

So what? The fact remains that Sharia Law is implemented by Islamic extremists for Islamic extremists and their victims.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
Was there not more to the ruling than that

Nothing worth noting.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
And what has this to do with the US or Israel ?????

Oh, please...  
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):
Isn't it about time we stopped judging other nations on there local laws?

When was the last time you didn't jump on one those countries for pretty much anything that you could start a thread on?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.

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